With gun violence down, is America arming against an imagined threat?

[HomeInspect]

"In other words -if the US reduced guns, they would likely also reduce gangs."That is the funniest line in this entire 36 page thread.

 

[The Rabbi]

And yet no one yet has been able to come up with any solid, reasonable reason as to why the US can not be compared with Germany.

It is quite simple really. The US is the most ethnically, racially, linguistically, religiously and culturally diverse nation in the history of the universe. This is both a blessing and a curse as criminal gangs oft times are established upon those differences, creating Italian gangs, Irish gangs, Russian gangs, Columbian gangs, Puerto Rican gangs, black gangs, latino gangs, Asian gangs, etc etc. In urban America the FBI reports that 85% of violent crime is associated with gang activity and a substantial number of homicides are the result of inter-gang warfare.

Germany has 11 recognized criminal gangs... mostly motorcycle gangs which are affiliated with US motorcycle gangs such as the Outlaws Motorcycle Club, Gypsy Joker Motorcycle Club, Hells Angels and the Warlocks Motorcycle Club. They also have a few neo nazi gangs, such as the Hammerskins (which began and still exists in the USA)

I absolutely agree that Germany has less gangs than the US does - although Germany does have skinheads, Neo-Nazis and has had terror cells like Baader-Meinhoff.

I absolutely agree that gangs breed violence - but that alone is something the US should be studying. WHY does the US havemore gangs than Germany?

Also, gangs both cause gun violence, and are empowered by it. One reason Germany has less gangs, is likely because those gangs are not able to arm themselves. This they cannot control turf, terrorise people or commit crimes.

In other words -if the US reduced guns, they would likely also reduce gangs.

Rabbi - Please stop your incessant attempts to close the discussion down.

Must...NOt...Feed...Troll...Must..NOT...Feed...Troll....

 

[Saigon]

"In other words -if the US reduced guns, they would likely also reduce gangs."That is the funniest line in this entire 36 page thread.

Then I look forward to your faulting the reasoning.

We both know you won't - and can't.

 

[The Rabbi]

"In other words -if the US reduced guns, they would likely also reduce gangs."That is the funniest line in this entire 36 page thread.

Then I look forward to your faulting the reasoning.

We both know you won't - and can't.

Do NOT feed troll. Just don't.

 

[Spoonman]

"In other words -if the US reduced guns, they would likely also reduce gangs."That is the funniest line in this entire 36 page thread.

Then I look forward to your faulting the reasoning.

We both know you won't - and can't.

ok, you claim the number of households owning guns is down, yet gang membership and gang violence are up. you proved yourself wrong all by yourself. but as usual your claims contradict the reality

 

[Spoonman]

"In other words -if the US reduced guns, they would likely also reduce gangs."That is the funniest line in this entire 36 page thread.

Then I look forward to your faulting the reasoning.

We both know you won't - and can't.

Do NOT feed troll. Just don't.

i just have to laugh that he sits in helsinki getting all butthurt about what we do over here in america

 

[Saigon]

"In other words -if the US reduced guns, they would likely also reduce gangs."That is the funniest line in this entire 36 page thread.

Then I look forward to your faulting the reasoning.

We both know you won't - and can't.

ok, you claim the number of households owning guns is down, yet gang membership and gang violence are up. you proved yourself wrong all by yourself. but as usual your claims contradict the reality

Jesus wept....please try and post honestly, Spoon. Really.

I have never made any comment on gang numbers.

 

[The Rabbi]

Then I look forward to your faulting the reasoning.

We both know you won't - and can't.

ok, you claim the number of households owning guns is down, yet gang membership and gang violence are up. you proved yourself wrong all by yourself. but as usual your claims contradict the reality

Jesus wept....please try and post honestly, Spoon. Really.

I have never made any comment on gang numbers.

Must not feed troll...Must not feel troll....

 

[Uncensored2008]

Then I look forward to your faulting the reasoning.

We both know you won't - and can't.

Saigon, there is no "reasoning" behind such stupidity.

 

[legaleagle_45]

I absolutely agree that gangs breed violence - but that alone is something the US should be studying. WHY does the US havemore gangs than Germany?

Already told you:

It is quite simple really. The US is the most ethnically, racially, linguistically, religiously and culturally diverse nation in the history of the universe. This is both a blessing and a curse as criminal gangs oft times are established upon those differences, creating Italian gangs, Irish gangs, Russian gangs, Columbian gangs, Puerto Rican gangs, black gangs, latino gangs, Asian gangs, etc etc. In urban America the FBI reports that 85% of violent crime is associated with gang activity and a substantial number of homicides are the result of inter-gang warfare.

What part of that do you not understand?

Also, gangs both cause gun violence, and are empowered by it. One reason Germany has less gangs, is likely because those gangs are not able to arm themselves. This they cannot control turf, terrorise people or commit crimes.

Total nonsense. Without guns, gangs would use other available weapons. Criminal gangs are empowered by young men in their late teens through their early 30's.. termed byt the FBI as the "at risk" category. Do you really believe that such persons would have any trouble using knives against a a 60 year old widow? Conversely, the presence of firearms in the hands of a 60 year old widow levels the playing field. Further, if you look a Edinburoh Absolutely no proof of that you are making things up to fit your agenda. In any event, restricting your range to "gun violence" or "gun homicides" really tells us nothing substantive. The real issue should be "total violence" or "total homicides" because of the issue of "substitution". It makes little difference if guns are eliminated if the total number of violent cimes and homicides are not reduced and gun homicides are merely replaced by an increase in knife homicides or club homicides or poison homicides.

If your theory were correct, then the states of Utah and Idaho would have the largest gang problem in the US since those states have the highest gun ownership rates in the US based upon NICS checks. In 2010 Utah's homicide rate was 1.9/100,000. In 20101, Idaho's homicide rate was 1.4/100,000. In 2010 the overall US homicide rate was 4.8/100,000. In 2010, (which was before the impact of McDonald when Chicago had the strictest gun laws in the USA) the homicide rate in Chicago was 15.2/100,000. Now, I have heard of the Chicago Gang "Gangster Disciples".. I know little of gangs in Idaho (perhaps the "Boise Spuds"?) or in Utah (perhaps the "Screaming Mormons"?). Perhaps you can enlighten us..

Did you know that in the Middle Ages, before the invention of the firearm, homicide rates were 20 to 30 times higher in Europe than they are today? Concurrently with the invention of the firearm, homicide rates began a steep and steady decline which coincided with the increased funtionality and availability of firearms. This trend continued until the early 20th century when homicide rates then stabilized and even went up a bit. The end of the decline in homicide rates (and the slight rise in said rates) coincided with the imposition of modern gun control legislation in Europe.

In other words -if the US reduced guns, they would likely also reduce gangs.

Baloney. Essentially, your argument is similar to "guns give off evil vibes causing people to commit crimes and be violent".

 

[legaleagle_45]

I have never made any comment on gang numbers.

Is it your assertion when you stated

"In other words -if the US reduced guns, they would likely also reduce gangs"

... you were not referring to the reduction in gang numbers? Then what were you referring to? Perhaps gang members would lose weight or something... perhaps because they would have to carry around more weaponry such as brass knuckles and clubs and knives instead of a lightweight handgun? This, in turn, would lead to a reduction in the weight of gangs through exercise?

 

[Saigon]

Legal Eagle -

#551 - I have never made any comment on the numbers of people who are members of gangs.

 

[Saigon]

Legal -

It is quite simple really. The US is the most ethnically, racially, linguistically, religiously and culturally diverse nation in the history of the universe. This is both a blessing and a curse as criminal gangs oft times are established upon those differences, creating Italian gangs, Irish gangs, Russian gangs, Columbian gangs, Puerto Rican gangs, black gangs, latino gangs, Asian gangs, etc etc. In urban America the FBI reports that 85% of violent crime is associated with gang activity and a substantial number of homicides are the result of inter-gang warfare.

This may be true - but I suspect you may not have spent a lot of time in cities like Rotterdam, Birmingham, Paris or Vienna recently. Or for that matter Berlin, Marseille or London.

Immigration into Europe is more concentrated than in the US, but what this means is that large parts of Europe are every bit as multi-national as the US - and with all of the same problems.

Europe does have less gangs - but this simply cannot be blamed on racial mixing. It's a myth.

Without guns, gangs would use other available weapons.

Yes, they would, and in England they do.

The result is a rate of knife crime higher than the US - and a total homicide massively less than the US.

No one on this board thinks a gang is going to be able to control a territory with knives as effectively as they can with MSSI weapons.

 

[legaleagle_45]

Immigration into Europe is more concentrated than in the US, but what this means is that large parts of Europe are every bit as multi-national as the US - and with all of the same problems. .

Totally incorrect in total numbers and in diversity. The numbers in Europe do not arise to a critical mass which would allow the creation of a gang based upon ethnic origin.

Yes, they would, and in England they do.

The result is a rate of knife crime higher than the US - and a total homicide massively less than the US. .

Try this analysis. Throw the US out of the calculation and study homicide rates in european countries and correlate that with firearms per captia. If your thesis is correct, then you would find a straight line correlation with the homicide rate directly proportional to firearm homicide rates. If it does it would be supportive of your assertion that firearms are a causative factor in homicides. If it does not, then it supports my position that the US is an outlier because of its many differences making international comparisons worthless. Guess who wins?

Norway has one of Western Europe’s highest household gun ownership rates, and also one of its lowest murder rates. Holland has the lowest gun ownership rate but its murder rate is 50% greater than Norway’s. Finland has a gun ownership rate 14 times greater than its neighbor Estonia, yet Estonia’s murder rate is about seven times higher than Finland’s and it has higher suicide rates as well. Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide: A Review of International Evidence, 30 HARVARD JOURNAL OF LAW & PUBLIC POLICY 651 (2007).

No one on this board thinks a gang is going to be able to control a territory with knives as effectively as they can with MSSI weapons.

I do.. so long as superior weapons are unavailble. That has always been the case.

 

[The Rabbi]

And of course it begs the question of How do you "control" guns when there are already 300M in circulation, with a service life of a hundred years or more in many cases.

But Psygone is a troll. Trolls don't respond to logic or facts. Trolls only troll by posting the same discredited arguments buttressed with the same discredited factoids time and again.

 

[Saigon]

Totally incorrect in total numbers and in diversity. The numbers in Europe do not arise to a critical mass which would allow the creation of a gang based upon ethnic origin.

Really?

As of 2010, about seven million foreign citizens were registered in Germany, and 20% of the country's residents, or more than 16 million people, were of foreign or partially foreign descent (including persons descending or partially descending from ethnic German repatriates).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany#Demographics

In 2008, the French national institute of statistics INSEE estimated that 11.8 million foreign-born immigrants and their direct descendants (born in France) lived in France representing 19% of the country's population. More than 5 million are of European origin and about 4 million of Maghrebi origin. Immigrants aged 18–50 count for 2.7 millions (10% of population aged 18–50) and 5 millions for all ages (8% of population). 2nd Generation aged 18–50 make up 3.1 millions (12% of 18–50) and 6.5 millions for all ages (11% of population)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France#Demographics

So your point is that the two million Turks in Germany do not have enough members to form a gang?

 

[Saigon]

Throw the US out of the calculation and study homicide rates in european countries and correlate that with firearms per captia. If your thesis is correct, then you would find a straight line correlation with the homicide rate directly proportional to firearm homicide rates.

Yes, that is true, and I have seen it done where 20 EU countries were ranked by gun ownership and by gun-related murders, and there was correlation in 19 positions.

There are a couple of countries like Estonia (Russian mafia,heroin trade) and Serbia (vast stockpiles of illegally owned military weapons) which skew the stats, but by and large the correlation holds.

 

[legaleagle_45]

Throw the US out of the calculation and study homicide rates in european countries and correlate that with firearms per captia. If your thesis is correct, then you would find a straight line correlation with the homicide rate directly proportional to firearm homicide rates.

Yes, that is true, and I have seen it done where 20 EU countries were ranked by gun ownership and by gun-related murders, and there was correlation in 19 positions.

There are a couple of countries like Estonia (Russian mafia,heroin trade) and Serbia (vast stockpiles of illegally owned military weapons) which skew the stats, but by and large the correlation holds.

Err... I cited a study which says it does not hold. .. a study published in the HARVARD JOURNAL OF LAW & PUBLIC POLICY It is somewhat irritating for you to claim

I have seen it done where 20 EU countries were ranked by gun ownership...

 

[legaleagle_45]

Really?

Yes really. did you know there are more people of Sweedish descent living in the US than in Sweeden? Did you know there are more Spanish speaking people in the US than in Spain? Did you know that LA has more spanish speaking residents than any other city in the entire world excepting Mexico City alone?

[As of 2010, about seven million foreign citizens were registered in Germany,

There are about 12 million ILLEGAL Aliens in the USA today.

Illegal immigration to the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are 38 Million first generation legal immigrants living in the US as of 2007

Immigration to the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and 20% of the country's residents, or more than 16 million people, were of foreign or partially foreign descent (including persons descending or partially descending from ethnic German repatriates).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany#Demographics

In 2008, the French national institute of statistics INSEE estimated that 11.8 million foreign-born immigrants and their direct descendants (born in France) lived in France representing 19% of the country's population. More than 5 million are of European origin and about 4 million of Maghrebi origin. Immigrants aged 18–50 count for 2.7 millions (10% of population aged 18–50) and 5 millions for all ages (8% of population). 2nd Generation aged 18–50 make up 3.1 millions (12% of 18–50) and 6.5 millions for all ages (11% of population)

Did you know that 40% of the entire US population can trace their roots to immigrants who entered the US through Ellis Island?... and Ellis Island was only operating for 35 years

Ellis Island ? History.com Articles, Video, Pictures and Facts

Did you know that only 1.2% of the US population is Native American, thus 98.8% of the US population are immigrants or descended from immigrants?
USA QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau

You sure you want to continue this comparison?

 

[Saigon]

Legal Eagle -

Yes, there are a lot of people in the US, and a lot of immigrants.

We have estbalished that there are also a lot of people in Germany and France, and a lot of immigrants.

It simply is not logical to suggest that there are few Turkish gangs in Germany, because there are only two million Turks in Germany; especially when most of those two million people live in two or three German cities.


*I'll look at the Harvard Study later and get back to you on it.