Zone1 your subjective truth is not necessarily Truth, period

[Meriweather]

So now you resort to LYING! Wow.. some Catholic you are, but I already knew you are not a true Catholic. I never said "You're going to Hell" to anyone unless I also added "unless you repent" which, I don't even say that very often

I did not say or imply that you said any such thing. I was merely pointing out there is no need to say anything about hell when one can present the kingdom.

As if I said otherwise??

I don't believe anyone said you did. Did I use the word 'you'? If not, I was speaking generally, not to or about any specific person.

 

[forkintheroad7]

I did not say or imply that you said any such thing. I was merely pointing out there is no need to say anything about hell when one can present the kingdom.

Jesus spoke of Hell more than He did Heaven. He came here to warn us about Hell and show us the way to avoid going there. But the novus ordo folks tried to throw out the teachings on hell.. because they "care about people." What a crock. That one priest I mentioned recently in the NO who was sincere was the EXCEPTION to the rule. I stopped going to confession because of novus ordo priests who are NOT sincere and are actually rude and hateful. I stopped going to confession long b4 I discovered Lefebvre and his response to the ridiculous novus ordo sect...

But I guess as long as you have a good priest... and a good spot in the NO "church," all is well. You seem to have no compassion for what others go through.. maybe esp not for Catholics. Do you really think I am the only unhappy one out there.. unhappy about the heretic francis and etc..?

But I guess you dont want to hear about the crooked history of the modern Vatican, so you attack the messenger.

 

[Meriweather]

Jesus spoke of Hell more than He did Heaven. He came here to warn us about Hell and show us the way to avoid going there. But the novus ordo folks tried to throw out the teachings on hell.. because they "care about people." What a crock. That one priest I mentioned recently in the NO who was sincere was the EXCEPTION to the rule. I stopped going to confession because of novus ordo priests who are NOT sincere and are actually rude and hateful. But I guess as long as you have a good priest... You seem to have no compassion for what others go through.. maybe esp not for Catholics. I guess you dont want to hear about the crooked history of the modern Vatican, so you attack the messenger.

I have not attacked you, nor will I. Jesus taught us not only how to live this life, but how to live this life to the fullest. He pointed out what gets in the way of living this life to the fullest. Besides learning about Christ, why read the Gospels?

• To read about heaven
• To read about hell
• To read about how to live this life to the fullest

For me, it has always been I read the Gospels to learn how to live my life to the fullest. Critiquing the Vatican isn't my idea of living my life to the fullest. I do read what some of the various Popes have said on various issues--if it is worth my time.

 

[ninja007]

This makes NO sense at all. I was talking about FAKE religions that need to be attacked bc they lead people astray, and Jesus said Few find the Narrow Way to Heaven so I think we need to be very careful about what people believe. Believing in once saved always saved (for instance) is a fast-track ticket to Hell

The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church, is the largest Christian church, with 1.28 to 1.39 billion baptized Catholics worldwide as of 2024

 

[ninja007]

We have to be careful and understanding about this issue, because many try to pit Paul and James against each other when in reality they're saying the same thing and even referencing the same OT sources. Keep in mind that James was written first, when the Church was almost exclusively Jewish and was thus writing to an audience that was accustomed to living under the Law. Jesus left behind commandments that we are to obey, and very likely some of the New Jewish believers were very happy to throw off the Law and live freely for themselves. James is trying to remind them that they are expected to show their faith to a hostile world through the way they lived and that Jesus has expectations for their lives.

Paul, OTOH, was writing to an audience composed of Jews and Gentiles both and emphasized that faith justifies us before God, that we simply cannot earn it, no matter how good we think we are. There were doubtless Jewish believers within the early church that considered themselves superior to Gentile believers because they obeyed the Law while the new believers did not. In fact, Paul and Peter famously argued over whether to insist the new believers essentially convert to Judaism and be put under the Law. Paul is simply reminding us that, in Christ, no one is to consider themselves more righteous than any other because of their obedience to a set of rules. Something else we need to understand is what faith is. It's not, "Oh, yes, I believe in Jesus". No, it's more a daredevil crossing Niagara Falls on a rope with a wheelbarrow who then asks the crowd if they believe he could put one of them in the wheelbarrow and go across the falls without dropping them. Faith means you get in the wheelbarrow. It's putting complete and total trust in Jesus, which of course means we're going to do what He says to do.

Our mistake is to ignore either side of the coin. Both faith and works go together, and here's how. Faith justifies us before God, full stop. We see this in the thief hanging on the cross beside Jesus. He had no good deeds to offer, no sacraments, no catechisms, no baptism, only faith, and Jesus accepted him. We sometimes forget, however, that Jesus gave us commands and even stated explicitly that His followers would OBEY His commands. And what were those commands? The two most important ones are to love God with everything we have and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. The entire Law is wrapped up in those two, and what do they mean practically? If you love God, you will seek to do what He does, which is love. And if you love your neighbor, how are you going to ACT towards him? Doesn't this start to sound like some of the things Catholics are saying?

Let's be honest here, can someone really say they are a follower of Christ if they then proceed to knowingly and habitually ignore the commands Jesus gave us? Do I love my wife if I say I do, then ignore her or treat her like dirt?

There are two extremes that we need to avoid. One is to say that I can be saved then live selfishly for myself, ignore everything Christ taught and still be welcomed into God's eternal presence. Wrong because you came to Him under false pretenses, not fully committing yourself to Him. The other extreme is to live in constant fear that I'm not doing enough, that I have to contribute to my own salvation, that my desire to obey Christ isn't enough, that I have a set number of church specified activities that I must carry out in order to be welcomed into God's eternal presence. Also wrong. God doesn't want us to live under condemnation and fear, and He doesn't want us counting up our deeds, hoping that there are enough good ones to outweigh the bad ones.

So, what is the Christian to do? First, trust completely that Jesus has you. Satan, the world, and sadly, even some in the church will try to tell you that that you're not doing something right, that you don't belong to the right group, you're not doing enough or you're not doing the right rituals. Bunk. If you put your faith in Him and you try every day to learn more about what He wants from you, how He wants you to act, etc., He has you. Second, keep studying, keep paying attention to the Word, keep loving your neighbor as God directs. Jesus has done everything necessary for you to be welcomed into God's eternal presence.

john 3:16. simple.

 

[ninja007]

This makes NO sense at all. I was talking about FAKE religions that need to be attacked bc they lead people astray, and Jesus said Few find the Narrow Way to Heaven so I think we need to be very careful about what people believe. Believing in once saved always saved (for instance) is a fast-track ticket to Hell

john 3:16. no mention of the rcc, sacraments, works etc.

 

[ninja007]

So, you find heresy "fun"?

How about the consequences of heresy. Is Hell fun?

And if you manage, despite all the heresy in the world, to end up in Purgatory (which means you will end up in Heaven once you're sufficiently purged), you are still in for a world of hurt because Purgatory is basically Hell that eventually ends.

No, heresy is NOT fun

theres no purgatory only heaven or hell.

 

[ninja007]

The False Hope of Purgatory​

by John MacArthur

Wednesday, July 13, 2022





This post was originally published in July 2018. –ed.
Let’s be clear from the outset: The Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory is taught nowhere in Scripture. It was invented to accommodate Catholicism’s denial of justification by faith alone. And it offers false hope to millions who anticipate ample time beyond the grave—perhaps eons, if necessary—to achieve their own justification.
Scripture very clearly teaches that an absolutely perfect righteousness is necessary for entry into heaven. Jesus said, “I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20). He then added, “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48)—thus setting the standard as high as it can possibly be set.
The Only Way to Heaven
Later in His ministry, when the rich young ruler approached Jesus to ask how he might enter heaven, Jesus upheld this same standard of absolute perfection. He began by challenging the clear implication that the young man hoped he could attain a sufficient goodness of his own to merit heaven: “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good” (Matthew 19:17). Notice: Jesus did not disclaim that He Himself was sinlessly perfect (a common misinterpretation of this passage). He was simply pointing out plainly that the standard of perfection required to earn heaven is impossible for fallen creatures.
Because the young man was undeterred by this, however, Jesus told him that to obtain eternal life, he must have a track record of perfect obedience to the law (Matthew 19:17-22). Again and again, Jesus made the required standard of righteousness impossibly high for all who would seek to earn God’s favor on their own.
The young ruler clearly did not understand or acknowledge his own sinfulness. He assured Jesus that he had indeed kept the law from his youth up (v. 20).
Jesus subtly pointed out the young man’s covetousness (v. 21), which was a violation of the tenth commandment. From the outset of His conversation with the young man, the Lord was prodding him to confess that no one but God Himself is truly good. But the rich young ruler was unwilling to face his own sinfulness, and so he went away without salvation.
The disciples marveled at this. The young man was evidently—from a human perspective—one of the most righteous individuals they’d encountered. Notice that no one disputed his claim that he had obeyed the law. That suggests there were no overt sins in his life that anyone could point to. He seemed the best of men. So the disciples were floored when he walked away with no assurance of eternal life from Jesus. In fact, Jesus told them, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God” (Matthew 19:23-24).
There’s no mistaking Jesus’ point. He was setting the standard at an impossible height. He was saying that the most fastidious legal observance is not enough. The most flawless external righteousness is not enough. All the worldly advantages of wealth are of no help. Only absolute perfection is acceptable to God. Our Lord kept underscoring these truths because He wanted people to see the utter futility of trying to earn righteousness by any system of works.
The disciples got the message. They asked, “Then who can be saved?” (Matthew 19:25).
And Jesus replied, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).
Accepted By Imputation
We know from Paul’s treatise on justification in Romans 4 that God saves believers by imputing to them the merit of Christ’s perfect righteousness—by no means because of their own righteousness. God accepts believers “in Christ.” He clothes them with the perfect righteousness of Christ. He declares them perfectly righteous because of Christ. Their sins have been imputed to Christ, who has paid the full penalty. His righteousness is now imputed to them and—through His imputed righteousness—they receive His full merit. That is what justification by faith means. The Father “made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
In other words, God does not first make us perfect, then accept us on that basis. He first legally justifies us by imputing to us an alien righteousness, then perfects us by conforming us to the image of Christ. He “justifies the ungodly” (Romans 4:5).
Paul wrote, “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1). “Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1). Those verses describe our justification as something already accomplished—a completed reality, not something we are striving for. Jesus Himself described justification as an immediate event when He told how the repentant publican was saved after begging God for mercy: “I tell you, this man went to his house justified” (Luke 18:14).
Scripture clearly and consistently attests to justification as a settled fact for every believer; it is not an ongoing process. We stand before God in faith right now, fully acceptable to Him because of Christ’s righteousness—not because of any doings of our own.
False Doctrine and False Hope
Roman Catholic doctrine denies all of that. Catholicism teaches that justification is an ongoing process that depends on the degree of real, personal righteousness we achieve. According to Rome, Christ’s merit imputed to us is not enough to save; we must earn more merit of our own through the sacraments and other good works. Righteousness is infused into us (rather than being imputed to us). But it is obvious that we are not perfectly righteous by any practical measure. So the righteousness we obtain by grace must be perfected by our own efforts.
According to Catholic teaching, this real, personal righteousness that resides in us is the necessary ground on which God accepts us. And our justification is not complete until we are really and completely perfect—by an inherent righteousness, not merely by a legally imputed righteousness. This actually reverses the biblical order, suggesting that we must first be perfected, and only then is our justification complete. In other words, in Roman Catholic doctrine, God does not justify the ungodly.
The Catholic view of justification poses an obvious dilemma. We know too well that even the best Christians fall far short of perfection. No one (Catholic teaching actually says almost no one) achieves absolute perfection in this life. And if our own perfection is a prerequisite for heaven, it would seem no one could enter there immediately upon dying. Any remaining imperfections would need to be worked out first.
The invention of purgatory was necessary to solve this dilemma. Deny that we are justified by faith alone, and you must devise an explanation of how we can make the transition from our imperfect state in this life to the perfect state of heaven. Purgatory is where Roman Catholics believe most people go after death to be finally purged of their remaining guilt and gain whatever merit they may be lacking to enter heaven. Catholicism teaches that this process involves intense pain and suffering.
Oddly enough, although Catholic doctrine denies that the imputed righteousness of Christ is sufficient to save sinners in this life, it does allow the imputation of righteousness from living sinners to those in purgatory. This is why masses are said for the dead. Supposedly the righteousness earned by way of the sacrament is imputed to the person in purgatory, which shortens his or her stay there.
The Catholic doctrine of purgatory offers false hope to people hoping to atone for their own sins on the other side of the grave. Rome’s warped and perverted view of justification will undoubtedly usher into eternal torment many who expected to have more time to achieve perfection.