CDZ Zuckerberg Calls for a Universal Basic Income

[Circe]

Another problem with Basic income for poor people: can't do it if the borders are open with Mexicans and Guatemalans and Asians and Indians and Africans and so on are flooding in here as they are at present. Can you imagine the increase in people smuggling that would happen if we just gave all poor people a Basic income? It would be like the Navy of overcrowded rubber rafts constantly sailing from Africa and Syria and Turkey to Europe now. We'd be overwhelmed with the whole world of impoverished Africans and such trying to get here and be paid to live well with no need to work, and the system would not begin to be sustainable.

It really would require unforgeable IDs and laws that any non-citizens would be immediately deported, and also one woman-one child population control or the system would rapidly collapse. Even Zuckerberg can't pay for the whole world flooding in here.

 

[JimBowie1958]

/----/ But if there is no one with money to buy these things built by robots.....

That is what the UBI is for, giving people the money to buy shit.

 

[Indeependent]

Fuck Zuckerberg.

 

[JimBowie1958]

So, fewer jobs means less revenue to pay for UBI, right? I just don't see how the numbers add up, $40 grand a year for every adult?

OK, this is off the cuff calculation, but here goes.

1.Costs of labor for corporations today:
How Much of Gross Revenue Should Go to Payroll?

Payroll is the total amount a business pays out for labor, including bonuses, benefits and owner draws. For some businesses, like highly automated production facilities, labor is a relatively small percentage of the costs of producing the product. But for other labor-intensive businesses, like restaurants and theme parks, labor costs are a much greater percentage of costs, ranging up to 20 to 40 percent. Payroll costs average more than 60 percent of total expenses in the trucking industry.​

So for percentage of corporate budget as an average, lets just use 25% for an easy number and it is in the range of these costs for labor, and a bit on the low side.

2. Corporate gross profit, nationally is around $7.5 trillion, as they are on average paying a 17% tax rate after deductions, and paid in around $1.74 trillion, this puts all corporate profit at $10.5 trillion.

3. Percentage of total costs vrs profit for average company in US is 7.5%. So total operation budget for US corporations is around $130 trillion, of which 25% is labor cost for our case example here.

4. Total cost of labor in our corporations then would be about $130 trillion x 0.25 = $42 trillion saved labor costs once we are 100% robotic. This brings total corporate profits to $52 trillion annually, way up from $10 trillion.

So if we had a robotics tax that replaced the lost federal/state/municipal taxes, at a 33% tax rate, that would bring in $14 trillion in government revenues to pay for the UBI, or $39,000 per man woman and child in the USA at a population of 360 million.

You think that could work?

$39,000/ person while corporate profits are still up by $38 trillion nationally?

 

[Cellblock2429]

/----/ But if there is no one with money to buy these things built by robots.....

That is what the UBI is for, giving people the money to buy shit.

/----/ And where does a UBI program get its money?

 

[Circe]

Another problem with Basic is the inflation. Look how Social Security payments are constantly going up: there would be continual agitation to raise the amount of Basic. If there is bad inflation in the economy, that would again be unsustainable for such a program.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Zuckerberg has a good idea.

Let's just get rid of money and make everything free.

We cant get rid of money, silly, how else would the government tax us?

But if it's free it doesn't cost anything right?

No, but the corporations that have replaced human labor with robotic labor will be making such windfall profits, they will be able to shoulder the entire burden while still making record profits.

We are a very long way from all human labor being automated

 

[Skull Pilot]

Zuckerberg has a good idea.

Let's just get rid of money and make everything free.

We cant get rid of money, silly, how else would the government tax us?

But if it's free it doesn't cost anything right?

No, but the corporations that have replaced human labor with robotic labor will be making such windfall profits, they will be able to shoulder the entire burden while still making record profits.

a general tax on firms for unemployment compensation!

We already have that at both the state and federal level

 

[Cellblock2429]

Another problem with Basic is the inflation. Look how Social Security payments are constantly going up: there would be continual agitation to raise the amount of Basic. If there is bad inflation in the economy, that would again be unsustainable for such a program.

/----/ How many nations have thrived on paying people to sit home and do nothing?

 

[Circe]

Another problem with Basic is the inflation. Look how Social Security payments are constantly going up: there would be continual agitation to raise the amount of Basic. If there is bad inflation in the economy, that would again be unsustainable for such a program.

/----/ How many nations have thrived on paying people to sit home and do nothing?

It is viewed as a better alternative to them rioting. How the National Convention in Paris in 1794 would have loved to be able to give the whole Paris mob a basic income. But for it to be an alternative to people rioting, there would have to be a way to take Basic away from all the people who would riot --- to get the Basic amount raised, just for meanness, excitement, looting, etc. Convicted of a crime, they're out of the system? Caught rioting, they are off Basic? Probably better just not to get started on all this. It looks unworkable to me. But Zuckerberg is right: there are a lot of people who will never be able to work in the current tech environment and the welfare system already makes it possible for them to avoid picking lettuce, which is where they are really needed, but they won't do that work.

 

[danielpalos]

Believe all of what? The history is accurate, so is the commentary. I prefer different schemes, but this is a thread about minimum incomes, and so that's what I'm discussing.

The amount of jobs being taken over by machines is scary and some thing will have to be done. I just do not know what!

Tax artificial persons!

The people I know get pretty antsy if they have nothing to do. I would prefer they and I keep busy!

With unemployment compensation for real persons simply for being unemployed on an at-will basis, we could make better use of existing infrastructure. Commute times could be reduced by removing excess traffic during commute hours. People could be doing more things locally.

Sell me some of that shit you're smoking !!!

That's some serious stuff!

Not everyone would be working regular business hours.

 

[danielpalos]

Another problem with Basic income for poor people: can't do it if the borders are open with Mexicans and Guatemalans and Asians and Indians and Africans and so on are flooding in here as they are at present. Can you imagine the increase in people smuggling that would happen if we just gave all poor people a Basic income? It would be like the Navy of overcrowded rubber rafts constantly sailing from Africa and Syria and Turkey to Europe now. We'd be overwhelmed with the whole world of impoverished Africans and such trying to get here and be paid to live well with no need to work, and the system would not begin to be sustainable.

It really would require unforgeable IDs and laws that any non-citizens would be immediately deported, and also one woman-one child population control or the system would rapidly collapse. Even Zuckerberg can't pay for the whole world flooding in here.

It means the "bottleneck" is government policy. We should be making money from Persons wanting to come over to our markets. Work authorization could solve our illegal problem on a permanent basis. More Persons would be tourists, if it were not so difficult to get a market friendly visa.

 

[danielpalos]

Another problem with Basic is the inflation. Look how Social Security payments are constantly going up: there would be continual agitation to raise the amount of Basic. If there is bad inflation in the economy, that would again be unsustainable for such a program.

inflation happens regardless. next.

 

[danielpalos]

Zuckerberg has a good idea.

Let's just get rid of money and make everything free.

We cant get rid of money, silly, how else would the government tax us?

But if it's free it doesn't cost anything right?

No, but the corporations that have replaced human labor with robotic labor will be making such windfall profits, they will be able to shoulder the entire burden while still making record profits.

a general tax on firms for unemployment compensation!

We already have that at both the state and federal level

no, we don't; or we would not have this issue.

 

[danielpalos]

Another problem with Basic is the inflation. Look how Social Security payments are constantly going up: there would be continual agitation to raise the amount of Basic. If there is bad inflation in the economy, that would again be unsustainable for such a program.

/----/ How many nations have thrived on paying people to sit home and do nothing?

None have solved simple poverty to date. Next question.

 

[JimBowie1958]

/----/ And where does a UBI program get its money?

see post #284

 

[JimBowie1958]

/----/ How many nations have thrived on paying people to sit home and do nothing?

Well, according to most conservatives, that would be all of Western Europe for the last 50 years.

 

[JimBowie1958]

We are a very long way from all human labor being automated

i agree if by 'a very long way from' you mean maybe ten to twenty years.

 

[danielpalos]

end the capital gains preference; Hard Work or Nothing.

 

[Cellblock2429]

end the capital gains preference; Hard Work or Nothing.

/——-/ capital gains is double taxation