$15 minimum wage would destroy 1.4 Million jobs

[Ray From Cleveland]

Mississippi, Alabama ...


Not in the blue cities

You can even do okay in my purple state of Ohio if you work a reasonable amount of overtime.

 

[Andylusion]

The anti-competitive aspect of minimum wage laws is conveniently ignored. They prevent poor people from competing for jobs with what is often the only advantage they possess - the willingness and ability to work for less. This is by design.

And they FINALLY state the truth.

They want the poor to compete for LOWER WAGES.

And tell me, speaking for all those opposed to the minimum wage...

Just How Low Will You GO?

$5
$2
How little can you get away with paying a starving person so they can eat?
How about lunch and a place to stay?
That's what they did to the coal miners?
That really is what you want isn't it?
Slave Labor without to problems of being a Slave Owner.

Are you stupid? So you are telling me, that if a company offered you $2/hour, you would.... knowing that you'll starve... take the job and work until you die?

Maybe left-wingers are that stupid, but right-wingers are not.

I had a job that paid too little. Here's what I did...> I quit <. Then I got another job that paid more. Why? Because I'm not a brain dead idiotic mindless left-winger.

God you are an idiot.

Choice:
DECLINE the $2 job and starve OR
ACCEPT the $2 job and starve a little later.

Your ignorance of the American economic system and its history seems boundless. I wish you could surprise me and prove me wrong but, let's face it slappy, ain't never gonna happen.

Then why didn't I starve? When I declined the job that paid too little, I got a higher paying job.

Why didn't your utterly stupid claim, result in me starving?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

50 grand in today's america doesn't even sniff middle class anywhere. Wages are woefully behind the cost of living increases. The gap continues to grow no end in sight.

In Ohio you can do okay at 50K a year. You won't have the nicest house or have the fanciest car, but you can live comfortably.

 

[Andylusion]

It has do do with your obvious math disability.

So...

Given you obvious math disability your claims are obviously well, just wrong.

A person making , say, $10/hour gets an increase over several years to $15 per hour
What do you think that person does with the extra money?
That's right, he spends it. On groceries, washing machines, cars,...
Republicans with their tax cuts make these same claims then proceed to cut taxes for the 1%.

Increased spending at the bottom increases economic activity which increases hiring and decreases unemployment.
Every tax cut since Bush in 01 has made this claim.
If returning $40 at the endo of the year is supposed to increase economic activity imagine what increasing the paycheck by 50% will do.

Your theory is so flawed. First of all increasing the wage will get employers to hire less people, invest in automation such as many fast food places have already done with more to come, and it will create a domino effect.

When the domino effect does a complete circle, everything else costs more money. The additional wage the MW worker now has won't buy them anymore than they have today. Food will go up, dining will be a little more expensive, rent will likely increase, gasoline will have to go up. Everything increases.

The only two things that is really accomplished is that government gets more money via payroll taxes, and it will cause inflation. All you have to do is look what's happening between blue and red states. You do better in life making $15.00 an hour in a red state than you do $20.00 an hour in a blue state. The costs of living are different.

And you show a complete ignorance of actual economics.

A business operates with the minimum level of staffing required to run the business.
Cutting employees cuts the business' ability to function.
Increasing pay increases the competence of employees as less competent employees are replaced by better employees interested in the better wage.
This increases the business' performance.
Increasing the wages at the lower level increases economic activity, the basis of every tax cut Republicans have ever supported.
By increasing that economic activity at the lowest level we increase hiring at that level which reduces unemployment
Which, in turn, reduces government spending
The business owner may, in the short term, experience lower profits but, over the longer term, their businesses will grow because of increased demand.

This really is just basic economics and, unlike Truman, you don't need two hands to figure it out.

When someone who is doing a 7.25 an hour job and that person artificially get a raise to 15 an hour his skills haven't improved so in reality there is no better employee to take his job because all entry level people will have their pay artificially raised for no reason.

And you don't know shit about running a business.

You can't run with the bare minimum because you have to cover sick time, vacation time etc and ideally you don't want to incur overtimes costs when you do that so a business actually runs with a small surplus of labor.

and saying that a guy who does nothing but push a broom has to be paid 15 an hour is not going to result in more broom pushing jobs it fact just the opposite will be true.

No one, unless they change jobs is getting a raise from 7.25 to 15 an hour.
The increase according to those with the power to enact will occur over several year.
YOU are making the same argument made in 2006 and you know what happened?
11 straight years of record economic growth.

So, obviously you're lying and trying to distract from the ACTUAL proposals and the HISTORIC FACT that minimum wage increases over the last 25 years have consistently resulted in economic expansion well beyond what was present before the increases.

LOL...... There is not a single example where increasing the minimum wage did not result in job loss. Not one.

Economic expansion might in fact happen, while still leaving thousands or millions to be unemployed.

California is a perfect example. Seattle is another example. Rich get richer, and the poor end up homeless.

 

[Supposn]

CBO projects no proportionally material increased rate of unemployment among USA’s lowest wage rate earners.

Liar.

View attachment 457607 The Effects on Employment and Family Income of Increasing the Federal Minimum Wage (cbo.gov)
Page 1.
View attachment 457608
Page 9.

LOL!!!

ToddsterPatriot, not a single line of your quoted excerpts from Congressional Budget Office’s reports state of any proportional increase of USA’s rates of unemployment. They did not project any materially proportional increased rates of unemployment due to the proposed “Raise the Wage Act This hold true even considering only population segments limited to employees earning lower wage rates or are members of lower-income families.

You do not fully comprehend CBO’s reports and/or you choose to ignore any portions of the reports that are contrary to your own opinions.
Your whining is distasteful. Respectfully, Supposn

 

[dblack]

The anti-competitive aspect of minimum wage laws is conveniently ignored. They prevent poor people from competing for jobs with what is often the only advantage they possess - the willingness and ability to work for less. This is by design.

And they FINALLY state the truth.

They want the poor to compete for LOWER WAGES.

And tell me, speaking for all those opposed to the minimum wage...

Just How Low Will You GO?

$5
$2
How little can you get away with paying a starving person so they can eat?
How about lunch and a place to stay?
That's what they did to the coal miners?
That really is what you want isn't it?
Slave Labor without to problems of being a Slave Owner.

You twisted fuck. You want them to go without job instead? If they can't make as much as you think is "minimal" - fuck 'em. They can't work.


It's none of your FUCKING business how much someone else make. Piss off.

And another dumbass who apparently can't read 8th grade English.
That's right, moron, I do keep it simple for the idiots but, obviously in your case. Maybe we should start here for you?

View attachment 457683

The point for you and the rest of the idiots is that given the choice the EMPLOYERS will not pay at all.

.

I really can't imagine why someone would work for nothing, but if they do - why is it any of your business?

 

[dblack]

Meh - Biden's plan is a slow PHASE-IN. It would destroy nothing and cost very little. Had the minimum wage kept up with inflation, it would be $24 and hour at present. Try supporting a family as a single parent (let alone yourself) on $7.25 an hour (15 grand a year) and let us know how that goes.

So any job that won't "support a family" should be outlawed? Why?

Nope, these are essential workers for the most part. None of us could live well without them.

If you establish a minimum wage that will support a family, then you're saying all jobs that pay less than that are illegal, right? How are you not?

I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm saying that the last minimum wage increase to $7.25 occurred in 2009. Ya figure we're about due for at least 12 bucks?

Hmmm.... it seems like you're lying. But maybe you just don't understand reality.

If we have a national minimum wage, that makes jobs that pay less illegal. That's the fucking point of the law.

It's funny that's you are trying to deny that. Do you not understand how the law works?

Yes, I'm saying that anything less than 12 bucks should be illegal. Remember too that the Biden plan is INCREMENTAL and not a sudden deal. A buck a year for the next 5 years seems pretty reasonable. Would you disagree?

Why should it be illegal? Why can't I work for $3 bucks an hour if I so choose ?

Because the law says that no employer is permitted to pay you that...

Are you just playing dumb? Or are you really too fucking stupid to realize that he was asking for the justification for the law? Why should it be illegal?

He asked a clear and concise question. I gave him a clear and concise answer.

So eat a dick, you stupid fuck...

I guess you're not playing.

The question was, "Why should it be illegal?"... You didn't answer - you dodged.

I did no such thing.

If it's illegal, the "why" doesn't really matter. It is what it is.

You're quite the dullard. The question is "why should it be illegal?" We already know that it IS illegal. Do you seriously not understand the question?

Your question is stupid. There's no "why" or "why not". It just is or it isn't.

The way the question was asked, why shouldn't he be able to work for $3.00 an hour if he wants to? Well, because it's illegal. Minimum wage laws say so.

I've never argued that it should or shouldn't be illegal, only that it is...

You still won't answer. I wonder why.

 

[Stryder50]

All this arguing over $15 an hour which is a wage one cannot survive on anywhere in this so called great nation.

Because minimum wage is not meant to be a surviving wage, but rather a starting wage.
Expectation is that the "wage earner" will learn more and become more valuable as a worker over time that they can move out of their parents home, and live on their own and, become worth more than a "minimum wage" in value to their employer, ... any employer.; etc. etc. etc. ...

If after a few years past your teens and into adulthood you aren't worth more than minimum wage for what you can do/produce, maybe time to 'restart~reset' or join the military and get some basic knowledge, skills, and abilities to make yourself a useful and productive part of society rather than a clueless piece of useless, non-productive 'waste of skin' parasite sucking off the productive essences of others.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

YOU are making the same argument made in 2006 and you know what happened?
11 straight years of record economic growth.

LOL!

You're funny.....and stupid.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

ot a single line of your quoted excerpts from Congressional Budget Office’s reports state of any proportional increase of USA’s rates of unemployment. They did not project any materially proportional increased rates of unemployment

I have to explain your own link to you.....hilarious!!!

Reducing low-wage employment while (maybe) increasing higher-wage employment isn't a
materially proportional increased rates of unemployment?

More high-wage workers, 0.8% fewer overall workers....sounds like the low-wage workers
are harmed while the higher-wage workers benefit.

You do not fully comprehend CBO’s reports and/or you choose to ignore any portions of the reports that are contrary to your own opinions.
Your whining is distasteful.

Tell me again which part I didn't fully comprehend and which part I ignored.

Your ignorance is comical.

 

[Blues Man]

It has do do with your obvious math disability.

So...

Given you obvious math disability your claims are obviously well, just wrong.

A person making , say, $10/hour gets an increase over several years to $15 per hour
What do you think that person does with the extra money?
That's right, he spends it. On groceries, washing machines, cars,...
Republicans with their tax cuts make these same claims then proceed to cut taxes for the 1%.

Increased spending at the bottom increases economic activity which increases hiring and decreases unemployment.
Every tax cut since Bush in 01 has made this claim.
If returning $40 at the endo of the year is supposed to increase economic activity imagine what increasing the paycheck by 50% will do.

Your theory is so flawed. First of all increasing the wage will get employers to hire less people, invest in automation such as many fast food places have already done with more to come, and it will create a domino effect.

When the domino effect does a complete circle, everything else costs more money. The additional wage the MW worker now has won't buy them anymore than they have today. Food will go up, dining will be a little more expensive, rent will likely increase, gasoline will have to go up. Everything increases.

The only two things that is really accomplished is that government gets more money via payroll taxes, and it will cause inflation. All you have to do is look what's happening between blue and red states. You do better in life making $15.00 an hour in a red state than you do $20.00 an hour in a blue state. The costs of living are different.

And you show a complete ignorance of actual economics.

A business operates with the minimum level of staffing required to run the business.
Cutting employees cuts the business' ability to function.
Increasing pay increases the competence of employees as less competent employees are replaced by better employees interested in the better wage.
This increases the business' performance.
Increasing the wages at the lower level increases economic activity, the basis of every tax cut Republicans have ever supported.
By increasing that economic activity at the lowest level we increase hiring at that level which reduces unemployment
Which, in turn, reduces government spending
The business owner may, in the short term, experience lower profits but, over the longer term, their businesses will grow because of increased demand.

This really is just basic economics and, unlike Truman, you don't need two hands to figure it out.

When someone who is doing a 7.25 an hour job and that person artificially get a raise to 15 an hour his skills haven't improved so in reality there is no better employee to take his job because all entry level people will have their pay artificially raised for no reason.

And you don't know shit about running a business.

You can't run with the bare minimum because you have to cover sick time, vacation time etc and ideally you don't want to incur overtimes costs when you do that so a business actually runs with a small surplus of labor.

and saying that a guy who does nothing but push a broom has to be paid 15 an hour is not going to result in more broom pushing jobs it fact just the opposite will be true.

No one, unless they change jobs is getting a raise from 7.25 to 15 an hour.
The increase according to those with the power to enact will occur over several year.
YOU are making the same argument made in 2006 and you know what happened?
11 straight years of record economic growth.

So, obviously you're lying and trying to distract from the ACTUAL proposals and the HISTORIC FACT that minimum wage increases over the last 25 years have consistently resulted in economic expansion well beyond what was present before the increases.

there has never been an instance where the MW was raised as much or as quickly.

so you are assumiong facts not in evidence and the CBO disagrees with you as their forecast is 1.4 million jobs lost

 

[danielpalos]

You think non-workers collect less welfare than workers?

I may have discovered why you're unemployable. You're a moron.

lol. Nobody takes right wingers seriously about economics.

Higher paid labor creates more in demand and generates more in tax revenue; the multiplier effect does the heavy lifting.

Real earnings for workers while they remained employed would increase by $64 billion,

Real earnings for workers while they were jobless would decrease by $20 billion,

 

[danielpalos]

Tell me at what price point will my customers buy less than they do now?

At what point will they stop buying my product?

Since everyone who is already making close to 15 an hour now will see their purchasing power drop it is inevitable that I will lose business

Another disingenuous argument? All of your competition (unless they are better managed) are in the same boat as you.

How many more hamburgers can minimum wage labor afford at their new minimum wage versus the previous minimum wage?

Exactly so my competition will also see a reduction in their business.

Which is why the CBO estimates that a 15 an hour minimum wage will cost 1.4 million jobs.

Higher paid labor creates more in demand and generates more in tax revenue. The multiplier will eventually create more job opportunities for the unemployed.

Real earnings for workers while they remained employed would increase by $64 billion,

Real earnings for workers while they were jobless would decrease by $20 billion,

 

[Blues Man]

Tell me at what price point will my customers buy less than they do now?

At what point will they stop buying my product?

Since everyone who is already making close to 15 an hour now will see their purchasing power drop it is inevitable that I will lose business

Another disingenuous argument? All of your competition (unless they are better managed) are in the same boat as you.

How many more hamburgers can minimum wage labor afford at their new minimum wage versus the previous minimum wage?

Exactly so my competition will also see a reduction in their business.

Which is why the CBO estimates that a 15 an hour minimum wage will cost 1.4 million jobs.

Higher paid labor creates more in demand and generates more in tax revenue. The multiplier will eventually create more job opportunities for the unemployed.

Real earnings for workers while they remained employed would increase by $64 billion,

Real earnings for workers while they were jobless would decrease by $20 billion,

There is no multiplier when 1.4 million jobs are lost and the purchasing power of most people is decreased.

 

[danielpalos]

Why do you think I would disagree with that?

The fact is most business don't get shit from the government.

More to the point, while more than 170 billion dollars is expended on assorted varieties of corporate welfare the federal government spends 11 billion dollars on Aid for Dependent Children. --https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_welfare#United_States

The fact is most businesses don't get shit from the government.

And I have no problem ending government handouts to businesses including farmers and the meat and dairy industries.

You not applying for it doesn't mean it was not available.

COVID-19 guidance & resources

{}

www.sba.gov

 

[Blues Man]

Why do you think I would disagree with that?

The fact is most business don't get shit from the government.

More to the point, while more than 170 billion dollars is expended on assorted varieties of corporate welfare the federal government spends 11 billion dollars on Aid for Dependent Children. --https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_welfare#United_States

The fact is most businesses don't get shit from the government.

And I have no problem ending government handouts to businesses including farmers and the meat and dairy industries.

You not applying for it doesn't mean it was not available.

COVID-19 guidance & resources

{}

www.sba.gov

The PPP was a one time thing and won't be repeated.

 

[danielpalos]

When someone who is doing a 7.25 an hour job and that person artificially get a raise to 15 an hour his skills haven't improved so in reality there is no better employee to take his job because all entry level people will have their pay artificially raised for no reason.

And you don't know shit about running a business.

You can't run with the bare minimum because you have to cover sick time, vacation time etc and ideally you don't want to incur overtimes costs when you do that so a business actually runs with a small surplus of labor.

and saying that a guy who does nothing but push a broom has to be paid 15 an hour is not going to result in more broom pushing jobs it fact just the opposite will be true.

That is a disingenuous argument and always has been. What do you when the price of materials rise that you use for input to your business?

When the costs of supplies goes up you raise prices.

When the cost of labor goes up you raise prices.

you have to to maintain a profitable business.

Raising a broom pushers salary from 7.25 to 15 an hour doesn't make his skills worth more and will not result in more broom pushers.

So what; value and price (cost) are two different things. Did your supplies gain more value from the increased price?

It doesn't matter if the value of supplies goes up all that matters is the price I have to pay for them and how much I have to add into the cost of my finished product.

Price went up for labor. Just apply that same concept.

Government artificially and arbitrarily setting prices does not acknowledge market forces and causes more problems than it resolves.

Only if you engage in special pleading. Inflation can be just as arbitrary. And, Government control of the economy is what achieved full employment during WWII not the private sector.

 

[Blues Man]

When someone who is doing a 7.25 an hour job and that person artificially get a raise to 15 an hour his skills haven't improved so in reality there is no better employee to take his job because all entry level people will have their pay artificially raised for no reason.

And you don't know shit about running a business.

You can't run with the bare minimum because you have to cover sick time, vacation time etc and ideally you don't want to incur overtimes costs when you do that so a business actually runs with a small surplus of labor.

and saying that a guy who does nothing but push a broom has to be paid 15 an hour is not going to result in more broom pushing jobs it fact just the opposite will be true.

That is a disingenuous argument and always has been. What do you when the price of materials rise that you use for input to your business?

When the costs of supplies goes up you raise prices.

When the cost of labor goes up you raise prices.

you have to to maintain a profitable business.

Raising a broom pushers salary from 7.25 to 15 an hour doesn't make his skills worth more and will not result in more broom pushers.

So what; value and price (cost) are two different things. Did your supplies gain more value from the increased price?

It doesn't matter if the value of supplies goes up all that matters is the price I have to pay for them and how much I have to add into the cost of my finished product.

Price went up for labor. Just apply that same concept.

Government artificially and arbitrarily setting prices does not acknowledge market forces and causes more problems than it resolves.

Only if you engage in special pleading. Inflation can be just as arbitrary. And, Government control of the economy is what achieved full employment during WWII not the private sector.

Yeah we should start another world war to get that full employment again. Funny how you don't seem to know what happened when the war ended and the job losses that went along with it

 

[danielpalos]

I have no expectations for any one I will pay 7.25 an hour for. And no pay is not always linked to productivity. Do you think if MW is changed to 15 an hour that productivity will go up?

Yes, I do. Someone more motivated may apply for that position versus someone who may feel they are a wage-slave for Capitalist due to unequal protection of the law for unemployment compensation in our at-will employment States.

 

[Blues Man]

I have no expectations for any one I will pay 7.25 an hour for. And no pay is not always linked to productivity. Do you think if MW is changed to 15 an hour that productivity will go up?

Yes, I do. Someone more motivated may apply for that position versus someone who may feel they are a wage-slave for Capitalist due to unequal protection of the law for unemployment compensation in our at-will employment States.

The more motivated people already have jobs that pay more than minimum wage.

MW is for unskilled, people who can't get a better paying job.