$15 minimum wage would destroy 1.4 Million jobs

[Toddsterpatriot]

You really need a link to see that wages are rising at a pittance? Take off the red white and blue blinders and see the real america.

You don't have a link to back up your claim?

 

[Dadoalex]

The anti-competitive aspect of minimum wage laws is conveniently ignored. They prevent poor people from competing for jobs with what is often the only advantage they possess - the willingness and ability to work for less. This is by design.

And they FINALLY state the truth.

They want the poor to compete for LOWER WAGES.

And tell me, speaking for all those opposed to the minimum wage...

Just How Low Will You GO?

$5
$2
How little can you get away with paying a starving person so they can eat?
How about lunch and a place to stay?
That's what they did to the coal miners?
That really is what you want isn't it?
Slave Labor without to problems of being a Slave Owner.

Tell us where those jobs are fuck face?

I will work for $2 bucks an hour if the job is interesting enough, I will undercut the competition and paid my resume

My goodness you are just the stupid one aren't you.
Those jobs don't LEGALLY exist today in this country.
But, if they did, you'd never get $2 an hour.
First, you're not worth $2.
Second, somebody else will work cheaper.
Which was the point of the post moron.

 

[Dadoalex]

The anti-competitive aspect of minimum wage laws is conveniently ignored. They prevent poor people from competing for jobs with what is often the only advantage they possess - the willingness and ability to work for less. This is by design.

And they FINALLY state the truth.

They want the poor to compete for LOWER WAGES.

And tell me, speaking for all those opposed to the minimum wage...

Just How Low Will You GO?

$5
$2
How little can you get away with paying a starving person so they can eat?
How about lunch and a place to stay?
That's what they did to the coal miners?
That really is what you want isn't it?
Slave Labor without to problems of being a Slave Owner.

You twisted fuck. You want them to go without job instead? If they can't make as much as you think is "minimal" - fuck 'em. They can't work.


It's none of your FUCKING business how much someone else make. Piss off.

And another dumbass who apparently can't read 8th grade English.
That's right, moron, I do keep it simple for the idiots but, obviously in your case. Maybe we should start here for you?

The point for you and the rest of the idiots is that given the choice the EMPLOYERS will not pay at all.

God you're stupid.

 

[Dadoalex]

Pretty sure the proposal is for graduated increases over several years.
If you've other information please source it.

And why would that be, if not to mitigate the negative impact and give the market time to adjust? And that's the thing - the market will adjust. You can't just dictate the value of labor (or anything else) by passing a law. Once things settle, the relative value of low wage workers will be the same. To put it another way, when the government decrees that a $10/hr job will now pay $15/hr, all they've really said is that $15 is now worth $10. The real value of the labor in doesn't change. If society doesn't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers, when all is done, whatever games you play with the numbers, society still won't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers.

Actually, it prevent an influx of cash at the bottom creating an inflationary run similar to the 80s.

I can indeed dictate the value of labor by passing a law. Those laws have been passed since 1933. And....SURPRISE the minimum wage doesn't only apply to burger flippers. I know, crazy isn't it! People who make low wages don't just flip burgers. Some sort garbage at recycling plants, some work cleaning hotels. Perhaps you'd be better to expand you understanding of the labor market.

Well no, you can't. Because I was working at a burger flipper job when the minimum wage went up, and the first thing they did was lay off 3 employees. The minimum wage is always zero.

If they laid 3 people off then they STUPIDLY had3 more employees than needed.

NOW let us consider....

Do we think they are stupid....

OR

Do we think you are full of shit?

Um, Alex, we'll take "full of shit" for the win!

So, I take it from your ignorance based statement, that you know very little about running a business.

No business runs so close cut to the wire. It's dangerous to do that.

If you have a store that requires exactly 5 people to operate, and you only hire exactly 5 people... what happens when one person is sick, and can't come in?

Do you shut down the entire store for the day? What happens when a person quits or goes on vacation? Do you shut down the entire store until you get a replacement?

So typically you have more people hired on, than the minimum you need to operate.

Additionally, many companies have filler positions. Positions that are not required, but serve to keep someone around if needed.

Seriously... do you really think that Walmart Greeters are absolutely required to operate the store? No. But if someone calls off, and they need an extra hand, a greeter can fill in the gap.

This is normal.

The reason they fired 3 people at my store, was because they had a opening shift, an evening, and a mid-shift. They cut back each shift by one person.

How did that work? Well each of us, was required to work more, and cover what that extra person did.

I don't know why you would think that is a crazy concept.

What, fool, happens when 2 get sick, or 3 , or....

Only morons keep extra staff around on the off chance someone might get sick.

And

Yeah, I'm sure the 92 year old woman handing me a towel to wipe the cart is on her way out to the parking lot to push carts.

You are 100% oblivious to the operations of any business.

Ugh. Sorry, I thought I was talking to someone with enough mental capacity to understand basic concepts. I appreciate your efforts to educate me on your level of incompetence. I will not waste my time trying to have an adult conversation with someone who isn't. Sorry for the confusion.

As noted. You are 100% oblivious to the ACTUAL operations of any business.

OH, and if you're running a business and need to pay a few extra employees who don't work let me know. I've got a line on your perfect non-workers.

 

[Dadoalex]

The anti-competitive aspect of minimum wage laws is conveniently ignored. They prevent poor people from competing for jobs with what is often the only advantage they possess - the willingness and ability to work for less. This is by design.

And they FINALLY state the truth.

They want the poor to compete for LOWER WAGES.

And tell me, speaking for all those opposed to the minimum wage...

Just How Low Will You GO?

$5
$2
How little can you get away with paying a starving person so they can eat?
How about lunch and a place to stay?
That's what they did to the coal miners?
That really is what you want isn't it?
Slave Labor without to problems of being a Slave Owner.

Are you stupid? So you are telling me, that if a company offered you $2/hour, you would.... knowing that you'll starve... take the job and work until you die?

Maybe left-wingers are that stupid, but right-wingers are not.

I had a job that paid too little. Here's what I did...> I quit <. Then I got another job that paid more. Why? Because I'm not a brain dead idiotic mindless left-winger.

God you are an idiot.

Choice:
DECLINE the $2 job and starve OR
ACCEPT the $2 job and starve a little later.

Your ignorance of the American economic system and its history seems boundless. I wish you could surprise me and prove me wrong but, let's face it slappy, ain't never gonna happen.

 

[Canon Shooter]

Meh - Biden's plan is a slow PHASE-IN. It would destroy nothing and cost very little. Had the minimum wage kept up with inflation, it would be $24 and hour at present. Try supporting a family as a single parent (let alone yourself) on $7.25 an hour (15 grand a year) and let us know how that goes.

So any job that won't "support a family" should be outlawed? Why?

Nope, these are essential workers for the most part. None of us could live well without them.

If you establish a minimum wage that will support a family, then you're saying all jobs that pay less than that are illegal, right? How are you not?

I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm saying that the last minimum wage increase to $7.25 occurred in 2009. Ya figure we're about due for at least 12 bucks?

Hmmm.... it seems like you're lying. But maybe you just don't understand reality.

If we have a national minimum wage, that makes jobs that pay less illegal. That's the fucking point of the law.

It's funny that's you are trying to deny that. Do you not understand how the law works?

Yes, I'm saying that anything less than 12 bucks should be illegal. Remember too that the Biden plan is INCREMENTAL and not a sudden deal. A buck a year for the next 5 years seems pretty reasonable. Would you disagree?

Why should it be illegal? Why can't I work for $3 bucks an hour if I so choose ?

Because the law says that no employer is permitted to pay you that...

Are you just playing dumb? Or are you really too fucking stupid to realize that he was asking for the justification for the law? Why should it be illegal?

He asked a clear and concise question. I gave him a clear and concise answer.

So eat a dick, you stupid fuck...

I guess you're not playing.

The question was, "Why should it be illegal?"... You didn't answer - you dodged.

I did no such thing.

If it's illegal, the "why" doesn't really matter. It is what it is.

You're quite the dullard. The question is "why should it be illegal?" We already know that it IS illegal. Do you seriously not understand the question?

Your question is stupid. There's no "why" or "why not". It just is or it isn't.

The way the question was asked, why shouldn't he be able to work for $3.00 an hour if he wants to? Well, because it's illegal. Minimum wage laws say so.

I've never argued that it should or shouldn't be illegal, only that it is...

 

[Dadoalex]

Pretty sure the proposal is for graduated increases over several years.
If you've other information please source it.

And why would that be, if not to mitigate the negative impact and give the market time to adjust? And that's the thing - the market will adjust. You can't just dictate the value of labor (or anything else) by passing a law. Once things settle, the relative value of low wage workers will be the same. To put it another way, when the government decrees that a $10/hr job will now pay $15/hr, all they've really said is that $15 is now worth $10. The real value of the labor in doesn't change. If society doesn't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers, when all is done, whatever games you play with the numbers, society still won't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers.

Actually, it prevent an influx of cash at the bottom creating an inflationary run similar to the 80s.

I can indeed dictate the value of labor by passing a law. Those laws have been passed since 1933. And....SURPRISE the minimum wage doesn't only apply to burger flippers. I know, crazy isn't it! People who make low wages don't just flip burgers. Some sort garbage at recycling plants, some work cleaning hotels. Perhaps you'd be better to expand you understanding of the labor market.

I do I am on the job boards at least once a day looking for my next gig , and I call you a liar not many jobs pay minimum wage in red States with the exception of waitresses who get tips

OH WOW! You spend every day on job boards looking for box folder jobs and THAT makes you an expert on the job market!

Your stupidity is breathtaking.

No I spend everyday on the job boards looking for my next gig, thinking about going to Alaska this summer, I am enjoying these working vacations it's better than being a industrial maintenance guy

Not me.

Recruiters spend every day reaching to get me to work for them.
It's what happens when you've got talent, skill, and are in demand.

 

[Dadoalex]

Pretty sure the proposal is for graduated increases over several years.
If you've other information please source it.

And why would that be, if not to mitigate the negative impact and give the market time to adjust? And that's the thing - the market will adjust. You can't just dictate the value of labor (or anything else) by passing a law. Once things settle, the relative value of low wage workers will be the same. To put it another way, when the government decrees that a $10/hr job will now pay $15/hr, all they've really said is that $15 is now worth $10. The real value of the labor in doesn't change. If society doesn't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers, when all is done, whatever games you play with the numbers, society still won't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers.

And after the dust settles, they'll be back, complaining that $15/hr isn't enough and they'll want $20.

And in 12 years $15 may, in fact, not be enough. So, what exactly is your point?

That trying to ensure a standard of living through the MW is a losing proposition. If society deems a certain standard of living is a constitution level right, society through the legislators needs to levy the taxes necessary, properly identify those recipients who need the assistance and write the checks. Businesses are not welfare distribution centers and shouldn't be.

No one's talking welfare.
We're discussing a fair wage.

 

[hadit]

Pretty sure the proposal is for graduated increases over several years.
If you've other information please source it.

And why would that be, if not to mitigate the negative impact and give the market time to adjust? And that's the thing - the market will adjust. You can't just dictate the value of labor (or anything else) by passing a law. Once things settle, the relative value of low wage workers will be the same. To put it another way, when the government decrees that a $10/hr job will now pay $15/hr, all they've really said is that $15 is now worth $10. The real value of the labor in doesn't change. If society doesn't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers, when all is done, whatever games you play with the numbers, society still won't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers.

And after the dust settles, they'll be back, complaining that $15/hr isn't enough and they'll want $20.

And in 12 years $15 may, in fact, not be enough. So, what exactly is your point?

That trying to ensure a standard of living through the MW is a losing proposition. If society deems a certain standard of living is a constitution level right, society through the legislators needs to levy the taxes necessary, properly identify those recipients who need the assistance and write the checks. Businesses are not welfare distribution centers and shouldn't be.

No one's talking welfare.
We're discussing a fair wage.

Yet high MW advocates are treating it like it is welfare. Once you untether a job's compensation from the value it adds to the company's bottom line it becomes an arbitrary cost to the company. You might as well have the government fix prices and wages, and that never works.

 

[Dadoalex]

It has do do with your obvious math disability.

So...

Given you obvious math disability your claims are obviously well, just wrong.

A person making , say, $10/hour gets an increase over several years to $15 per hour
What do you think that person does with the extra money?
That's right, he spends it. On groceries, washing machines, cars,...
Republicans with their tax cuts make these same claims then proceed to cut taxes for the 1%.

Increased spending at the bottom increases economic activity which increases hiring and decreases unemployment.
Every tax cut since Bush in 01 has made this claim.
If returning $40 at the endo of the year is supposed to increase economic activity imagine what increasing the paycheck by 50% will do.

Your theory is so flawed. First of all increasing the wage will get employers to hire less people, invest in automation such as many fast food places have already done with more to come, and it will create a domino effect.

When the domino effect does a complete circle, everything else costs more money. The additional wage the MW worker now has won't buy them anymore than they have today. Food will go up, dining will be a little more expensive, rent will likely increase, gasoline will have to go up. Everything increases.

The only two things that is really accomplished is that government gets more money via payroll taxes, and it will cause inflation. All you have to do is look what's happening between blue and red states. You do better in life making $15.00 an hour in a red state than you do $20.00 an hour in a blue state. The costs of living are different.

And you show a complete ignorance of actual economics.

A business operates with the minimum level of staffing required to run the business.
Cutting employees cuts the business' ability to function.
Increasing pay increases the competence of employees as less competent employees are replaced by better employees interested in the better wage.
This increases the business' performance.
Increasing the wages at the lower level increases economic activity, the basis of every tax cut Republicans have ever supported.
By increasing that economic activity at the lowest level we increase hiring at that level which reduces unemployment
Which, in turn, reduces government spending
The business owner may, in the short term, experience lower profits but, over the longer term, their businesses will grow because of increased demand.

This really is just basic economics and, unlike Truman, you don't need two hands to figure it out.

When someone who is doing a 7.25 an hour job and that person artificially get a raise to 15 an hour his skills haven't improved so in reality there is no better employee to take his job because all entry level people will have their pay artificially raised for no reason.

And you don't know shit about running a business.

You can't run with the bare minimum because you have to cover sick time, vacation time etc and ideally you don't want to incur overtimes costs when you do that so a business actually runs with a small surplus of labor.

and saying that a guy who does nothing but push a broom has to be paid 15 an hour is not going to result in more broom pushing jobs it fact just the opposite will be true.

No one, unless they change jobs is getting a raise from 7.25 to 15 an hour.
The increase according to those with the power to enact will occur over several year.
YOU are making the same argument made in 2006 and you know what happened?
11 straight years of record economic growth.

So, obviously you're lying and trying to distract from the ACTUAL proposals and the HISTORIC FACT that minimum wage increases over the last 25 years have consistently resulted in economic expansion well beyond what was present before the increases.

 

[Andylusion]

All this arguing over $15 an hour which is a wage one cannot survive on anywhere in this so called great nation.

I survived on $12,000 in one year. It sucked, but I did it.

The problem is, most people in minimum wage jobs, are living in a home with more than one person working anyway.

Last time I made less than $10/hour, I was living with my parents. When I was making minimum wage, I was still in high school.

Further, before the last 2 years, I never made more than $20,000 a year, and I very well survived on that.

I don't know why you make up stuff that isn't true, and pretend we'll believe you.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

No one's talking welfare.
We're discussing a fair wage.

A fair wage is what one agrees to work for. The employer offered a job for X money and benefits, and you either accept the job or decline. How is that unfair?

 

[Andylusion]

And this is according to the Far Left CBO. ...

Polishprince, you initialized this thread by referring to the Congressional Budget office as “the Far Left CBO”. I doubt if the majority or the minority parties’ congressional leaders would tolerate the CBO being far “left" or "right”, but I suppose your comment indicates your position within our nation’s political spectrum is not to the left of center and not among the “lunatic left fringe”.
But your comment leads me to speculate if you’re among the “lunatic right fringe”?
Respectfully, Supposn
///////////////////////////////////////////////////
Referring to: Introduction to CBO | Congressional Budget Office: “CBO’s work follows processes specified in the Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974 (which established the agency) or developed by the agency in concert with the House and Senate Budget Committees and the Congressional leadership”.

Nah, I don't buy that. They can 'say' that the CBO does thus and so, but I don't believe it, because I've read people who worked for government.

All government is influenced by those in power. All government is influenced by politics. Just go read Thomas Sowells experience working for the Department of Labor. Truth does not matter in a government agency. Politics does.

 

[Andylusion]

Considering how hard teenagers today work a business is really getting a bargain. It has never been easier to find good workers as it is today.

You are full of it. Teenagers are terrible workers in general. Terrible. I've hired them, and fired them. I know how hard they work. Not.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

God you are an idiot.

Choice:
DECLINE the $2 job and starve OR
ACCEPT the $2 job and starve a little later.

Your ignorance of the American economic system and its history seems boundless. I wish you could surprise me and prove me wrong but, let's face it slappy, ain't never gonna happen.

Oh please, nobody in this country actually starves unless they are homeless and not trying to help themselves. Nobody would take a $2.00 an hour job because our social programs pay much better. In fact, some studies have concluded that people who use every available social program do just as well as people who are in the median income bracket when tax deductions are considered.

 

[Andylusion]

If nobody applied for min wage jobs then all this would be a mute point. That would be funny when you think about it.

Well that's our point. If you don't want to work for minimum wage..... don't. You don't have to flip burgers. You can install carpet, and make more than double minimum wage.

It's a choice. Flipping burgers is easy. Installing carpet is hard work.

 

[Andylusion]

If you feel that way then please don't hire. Win win.

What are you even replying to?

 

[Andylusion]

50 grand in today's america doesn't even sniff middle class anywhere. Wages are woefully behind the cost of living increases. The gap continues to grow no end in sight.

False. That is simply not true.

 

[Andylusion]

You really need a link to see that wages are rising at a pittance? Take off the red white and blue blinders and see the real america.

Wages are not supposed to rise at all. You don't get paid more, because you sucked air for an entire year.

You get paid more, when the value of your labor goes up.

Stop flipping burgers, and get a job that has more value, and then your wages will go up.

How did Chris Gardner of the movie Pursuit of Happiness, go from homeless to end up a multi-millionaire?

Did he work at McDonald's flipping burgers, demanding $15/hour minimum wage?

No, he did work that produced more income. He found higher value labor to do, and earned more money.

 

[Andylusion]

Pretty sure the proposal is for graduated increases over several years.
If you've other information please source it.

And why would that be, if not to mitigate the negative impact and give the market time to adjust? And that's the thing - the market will adjust. You can't just dictate the value of labor (or anything else) by passing a law. Once things settle, the relative value of low wage workers will be the same. To put it another way, when the government decrees that a $10/hr job will now pay $15/hr, all they've really said is that $15 is now worth $10. The real value of the labor in doesn't change. If society doesn't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers, when all is done, whatever games you play with the numbers, society still won't value burger-flipping enough for someone to raise a family flipping burgers.

Actually, it prevent an influx of cash at the bottom creating an inflationary run similar to the 80s.

I can indeed dictate the value of labor by passing a law. Those laws have been passed since 1933. And....SURPRISE the minimum wage doesn't only apply to burger flippers. I know, crazy isn't it! People who make low wages don't just flip burgers. Some sort garbage at recycling plants, some work cleaning hotels. Perhaps you'd be better to expand you understanding of the labor market.

Well no, you can't. Because I was working at a burger flipper job when the minimum wage went up, and the first thing they did was lay off 3 employees. The minimum wage is always zero.

If they laid 3 people off then they STUPIDLY had3 more employees than needed.

NOW let us consider....

Do we think they are stupid....

OR

Do we think you are full of shit?

Um, Alex, we'll take "full of shit" for the win!

So, I take it from your ignorance based statement, that you know very little about running a business.

No business runs so close cut to the wire. It's dangerous to do that.

If you have a store that requires exactly 5 people to operate, and you only hire exactly 5 people... what happens when one person is sick, and can't come in?

Do you shut down the entire store for the day? What happens when a person quits or goes on vacation? Do you shut down the entire store until you get a replacement?

So typically you have more people hired on, than the minimum you need to operate.

Additionally, many companies have filler positions. Positions that are not required, but serve to keep someone around if needed.

Seriously... do you really think that Walmart Greeters are absolutely required to operate the store? No. But if someone calls off, and they need an extra hand, a greeter can fill in the gap.

This is normal.

The reason they fired 3 people at my store, was because they had a opening shift, an evening, and a mid-shift. They cut back each shift by one person.

How did that work? Well each of us, was required to work more, and cover what that extra person did.

I don't know why you would think that is a crazy concept.

What, fool, happens when 2 get sick, or 3 , or....

Only morons keep extra staff around on the off chance someone might get sick.

And

Yeah, I'm sure the 92 year old woman handing me a towel to wipe the cart is on her way out to the parking lot to push carts.

You are 100% oblivious to the operations of any business.

Ugh. Sorry, I thought I was talking to someone with enough mental capacity to understand basic concepts. I appreciate your efforts to educate me on your level of incompetence. I will not waste my time trying to have an adult conversation with someone who isn't. Sorry for the confusion.

As noted. You are 100% oblivious to the ACTUAL operations of any business.

OH, and if you're running a business and need to pay a few extra employees who don't work let me know. I've got a line on your perfect non-workers.

I didn't say they don't work. You are just too stupid to talk to. That's why you have to make up things I didn't say.

Just do everyone a favor, and keep your ignorance to yourself.