50 years later: has government dependency helped or hurt blacks?

[Unkotare]

You could start a petition to make sure no one talks to me.

No need. Just keep being yourself and you'll get there in no time.

 

[Oldstyle]

You basically just proved my point with that statement. Racism and slavery specifically as practiced in the US is the root problem. You denying it doesnt make it so. If you want to call it cultural racism and slavery have at it. All I know is that once the root issue of a problem can be identified you can devise a solution. Your declaration that educating yourself about the root of the matter is being racist is beyond silly. There is nothing more capable or unstoppable than a man or woman knowledgeable about who they are and where they are going.

People like you always demand that we go back and look at the "root cause" of everything and stop focusing on who's responsible for what happened NOW. It's a way to pass the blame from those who aren't doing the right thing to someone else. It's saying to people doing stupid things that it's not THEIR fault but someone else who is to blame. You didn't flunk that test in school because you didn't study for it! Oh, no...you flunked that test because of "cultural bias"! You didn't lose that job because you didn't show up to work or showed up stoned...you lost that job because of "overt racism".

I think youre either confused or in denial. Where did I ever say the responsibility is not on us as Black people. You just dont want to hear the root cause because it reflects negatively on white society. If I thought like you claim I would be in prison right now. I took responsibility for what I was going to become. However that took identifying some bad habits and why those habits existed.

If I kicked my dog every time my wife said something that made me mad i would be a fool to say her actions were not the root or cause of the problem. if I left it at that then what you are saying is true. However the real revelation comes in when I discover that I can choose to ignore my wife or instead of kicking my dog go build a tree house. Now I can go to work armed with the fact that my wifes actions may make me angry but its my choice to change my conditioned response.

You say that blacks take responsibility...but then you list all of the reasons why what's happening ISN'T the responsibility of blacks. It's a sham. I grew up on a dairy farm in a rich college town...the majority of my friends were the sons and daughters of college professors or administrators. I woke up at 4 AM everyday to milk cows...most of them slept in until 7. To people like you and Closed that's not fair! Why should I have had to do that simply because of the family I was born into! According to naive people like you, something should be done about the inequality of my life!!! Legislation should be passed! The government should step in!!! Call the media! Expose this injustice!

Instead of doing that I got up...milked the cows...finished High School...went to college on a scholarship and now I don't milk cows anymore. I don't milk cows and I didn't have to have anyone do it FOR me...I did it myself.

 

[Unkotare]

If I kicked my dog every time my wife said something that made me mad i would be a fool to say her actions were not the root or cause of the problem.

More illogic...

In the scenario above only YOU are the "root cause of the problem." The dog didn't make you mad, you just reacted like an asshole to something else (according to your scenario). The dog should bite YOU and nobody else. Is the notion of responsibility for YOUR own actions really so incomprehensible to you?

 

[ClosedCaption]

People like you always demand that we go back and look at the "root cause" of everything and stop focusing on who's responsible for what happened NOW. It's a way to pass the blame from those who aren't doing the right thing to someone else. It's saying to people doing stupid things that it's not THEIR fault but someone else who is to blame. You didn't flunk that test in school because you didn't study for it! Oh, no...you flunked that test because of "cultural bias"! You didn't lose that job because you didn't show up to work or showed up stoned...you lost that job because of "overt racism".

So ignoring the root cause will give us greater insight of how things are today? So if you show up with a dirty shirt it would be wrong to ask how it got that way and better to tell you over and over your shirt is dirty and I'm not interested in hearing how or why?

Ohhhh....That's why saying "blacks are doing bad" over and over is seen as a virtue.

If you show up with a dirty shirt and refuse to change it because someone else driving by splashed mud on it...then who's sitting there in a muddy shirt looking like an idiot? I don't really CARE why your shirt is dirty! I am however wondering why anyone would sit there in a wet, smelly shirt without doing something about it!

Change your shirt and get on with your life! Stop making excuses. Stop pretending that Life is fair. It isn't. It never has been. It never WILL be.

As I said in order for you to understand a situation you are saying its best not to find out the cause or care about the cause because the less information we have the better?

Are you really surprised that the same people you enslaved, treated unfairly and discriminated against are not socially at the same level as the Enslavers?

Because uh...

 

[Asclepias]

People like you always demand that we go back and look at the "root cause" of everything and stop focusing on who's responsible for what happened NOW. It's a way to pass the blame from those who aren't doing the right thing to someone else. It's saying to people doing stupid things that it's not THEIR fault but someone else who is to blame. You didn't flunk that test in school because you didn't study for it! Oh, no...you flunked that test because of "cultural bias"! You didn't lose that job because you didn't show up to work or showed up stoned...you lost that job because of "overt racism".

I think youre either confused or in denial. Where did I ever say the responsibility is not on us as Black people. You just dont want to hear the root cause because it reflects negatively on white society. If I thought like you claim I would be in prison right now. I took responsibility for what I was going to become. However that took identifying some bad habits and why those habits existed.

If I kicked my dog every time my wife said something that made me mad i would be a fool to say her actions were not the root or cause of the problem. if I left it at that then what you are saying is true. However the real revelation comes in when I discover that I can choose to ignore my wife or instead of kicking my dog go build a tree house. Now I can go to work armed with the fact that my wifes actions may make me angry but its my choice to change my conditioned response.

You say that blacks take responsibility...but then you list all of the reasons why what's happening ISN'T the responsibility of blacks. It's a sham. I grew up on a dairy farm in a rich college town...the majority of my friends were the sons and daughters of college professors or administrators. I woke up at 4 AM everyday to milk cows...most of them slept in until 7. To people like you and Closed that's not fair! Why should I have had to do that simply because of the family I was born into! According to naive people like you, something should be done about the inequality of my life!!! Legislation should be passed! The government should step in!!! Call the media! Expose this injustice!

Instead of doing that I got up...milked the cows...finished High School...went to college on a scholarship and now I don't milk cows anymore. I don't milk cows and I didn't have to have anyone do it FOR me...I did it myself.

No I said I take responsibility just like I'm sure countless other Blacks do. Again show me where I ever said it was not the responsibility of Black people? Why would I not list the cause of the problem? You asked why and what can be done about it.

Having to milk cows is in no way shape or form not fair. You lived on a farm and you had chores. What does that have to do with being treated unfairly due to your color? There is no college in existence that can change the color of my skin nor would I want to attend that college.

 

[Asclepias]

If I kicked my dog every time my wife said something that made me mad i would be a fool to say her actions were not the root or cause of the problem.

More illogic...

In the scenario above only YOU are the "root cause of the problem." The dog didn't make you mad, you just reacted like an asshole to something else (according to your scenario). The dog should bite YOU and nobody else. Is the notion of responsibility for YOUR own actions really so incomprehensible to you?

Why are you still addressing me? I thought you said you couldnt have a conversation with me? Did you have a change of heart?

 

[naturegirl]

So ignoring the root cause will give us greater insight of how things are today? So if you show up with a dirty shirt it would be wrong to ask how it got that way and better to tell you over and over your shirt is dirty and I'm not interested in hearing how or why?

Ohhhh....That's why saying "blacks are doing bad" over and over is seen as a virtue.

If you show up with a dirty shirt and refuse to change it because someone else driving by splashed mud on it...then who's sitting there in a muddy shirt looking like an idiot? I don't really CARE why your shirt is dirty! I am however wondering why anyone would sit there in a wet, smelly shirt without doing something about it!

Change your shirt and get on with your life! Stop making excuses. Stop pretending that Life is fair. It isn't. It never has been. It never WILL be.

As I said in order for you to understand a situation you are saying its best not to find out the cause or care about the cause because the less information we have the better?

Are you really surprised that the same people you enslaved, treated unfairly and discriminated against are not socially at the same level as the Enslavers?

Because uh...

There is the root of the problem as it exists today. I do not know one, not ONE white person that ever owned slaves.

What happened 200 years ago, happened. It was ugly it wasn't the right thing to do. However, living in the past presents little positive for the future.

I know a girl that was raped when she was a child, she bore a child as a result of that rape. The child, now an adult doesn't blame all males for the fact that her mom was raped, she doesn't play victim. She's happily married with children of her own.

You can choose to dwell in the past and become pitiful or you can move forward and make something of yourself. Nothing, absolutely NOTHING is holding anyone back. We're all born with the same opportunities.

 

[The Rabbi]

You basically just proved my point with that statement. Racism and slavery specifically as practiced in the US is the root problem. You denying it doesnt make it so. If you want to call it cultural racism and slavery have at it. All I know is that once the root issue of a problem can be identified you can devise a solution. Your declaration that educating yourself about the root of the matter is being racist is beyond silly. There is nothing more capable or unstoppable than a man or woman knowledgeable about who they are and where they are going.

Hello. Caribbean blacks were enslaved too. So slavery is not the root problem. Black culture is the problem.
It is not racist to educate yourself about the root of the matter. That is a distortion of what I wrote. It is racist to attribute the problems in the black community to racism. The problem is clearly a culture that thrives on destruction.

Youre spectacularly confused in a exceptional way.

It is racist to attribute the problems in the black community to racism.

Did you really just say that? I guess i'll just continue doing what I do. Is there anything further you want to argue about?

translation: I hadn't considered that but since it goes against my entire theory I must dismiss it somehow.

Yes, racism is attributing characteristics based on race. It would seem elemental. But I suppose your formulation is "racism is whatever I don't like."

 

[Asclepias]

If you show up with a dirty shirt and refuse to change it because someone else driving by splashed mud on it...then who's sitting there in a muddy shirt looking like an idiot? I don't really CARE why your shirt is dirty! I am however wondering why anyone would sit there in a wet, smelly shirt without doing something about it!

Change your shirt and get on with your life! Stop making excuses. Stop pretending that Life is fair. It isn't. It never has been. It never WILL be.

As I said in order for you to understand a situation you are saying its best not to find out the cause or care about the cause because the less information we have the better?

Are you really surprised that the same people you enslaved, treated unfairly and discriminated against are not socially at the same level as the Enslavers?

Because uh...

There is the root of the problem as it exists today. I do not know one, not ONE white person that ever owned slaves.

What happened 200 years ago, happened. It was ugly it wasn't the right thing to do. However, living in the past presents little positive for the future.

I know a girl that was raped when she was a child, she bore a child as a result of that rape. The child, now an adult doesn't blame all males for the fact that her mom was raped, she doesn't play victim. She's happily married with children of her own.

You can choose to dwell in the past and become pitiful or you can move forward and make something of yourself. Nothing, absolutely NOTHING is holding anyone back. We're all born with the same opportunities.

Using your example was her mom repeatedly raped over and over and her mother before her?

 

[naturegirl]

As I said in order for you to understand a situation you are saying its best not to find out the cause or care about the cause because the less information we have the better?

Are you really surprised that the same people you enslaved, treated unfairly and discriminated against are not socially at the same level as the Enslavers?

Because uh...

There is the root of the problem as it exists today. I do not know one, not ONE white person that ever owned slaves.

What happened 200 years ago, happened. It was ugly it wasn't the right thing to do. However, living in the past presents little positive for the future.

I know a girl that was raped when she was a child, she bore a child as a result of that rape. The child, now an adult doesn't blame all males for the fact that her mom was raped, she doesn't play victim. She's happily married with children of her own.

You can choose to dwell in the past and become pitiful or you can move forward and make something of yourself. Nothing, absolutely NOTHING is holding anyone back. We're all born with the same opportunities.

Using your example was her mom repeatedly raped over and over and her mother before her?

Why does that matter today? Ands yes she was raped repeatedly, for years. It doesn't matter now, does it. Quit blaming people that are dead for your problems. Man up and become a productive member of society and encourage your kids to do the same thing.

Until you move forward, you are doomed to the hell you envision. Screw it, sh*t happens to everyone at some point. It's not my fault our ancestors had slaves, it's my job to make sure it doesn't happen, ever again. Yet you allow the government to keep you begging for the minimum when you could easily have anything you want.

 

[Asclepias]

Hello. Caribbean blacks were enslaved too. So slavery is not the root problem. Black culture is the problem.
It is not racist to educate yourself about the root of the matter. That is a distortion of what I wrote. It is racist to attribute the problems in the black community to racism. The problem is clearly a culture that thrives on destruction.

Youre spectacularly confused in a exceptional way.

It is racist to attribute the problems in the black community to racism.

Did you really just say that? I guess i'll just continue doing what I do. Is there anything further you want to argue about?

translation: I hadn't considered that but since it goes against my entire theory I must dismiss it somehow.

Yes, racism is attributing characteristics based on race. It would seem elemental. But I suppose your formulation is "racism is whatever I don't like."

Actually that was one of my thought processes. I wondered why Blacks from other countries came over here with pride in who they were and a work ethic. That when I went on a search as to what was so different. I found out it was the particular brand of racism and slavery practiced in this country. Other countries just kept you in bondage (not to make light of it) but the US had a policy on how to make slaves compliant and docile due to the large number of them here in the states. They wanted no uprisings. They used a psychological approach combined with a physical one. The first thing they did is destroy the family unit and the traditional roles in that family.

 

[The Rabbi]

Youre spectacularly confused in a exceptional way.



Did you really just say that? I guess i'll just continue doing what I do. Is there anything further you want to argue about?

translation: I hadn't considered that but since it goes against my entire theory I must dismiss it somehow.

Yes, racism is attributing characteristics based on race. It would seem elemental. But I suppose your formulation is "racism is whatever I don't like."

Actually that was one of my thought processes. I wondered why Blacks from other countries came over here with pride in who they were and a work ethic. That when I went on a search as to what was so different. I found out it was the particular brand of racism and slavery practiced in this country. Other countries just kept you in bondage (not to make light of it) but the US had a policy on how to make slaves compliant and docile due to the large number of them here in the states. They wanted no uprisings. They used a psychological approach combined with a physical one. The first thing they did is destroy the family unit and the traditional roles in that family.

Actually none of that is true. Slavery in the Caribbean was pretty much as it was here. Slave families were not often broken up and after the war there were slaves who wandered the South looking for their families. Additionally black men were far more likely than white men to be married prior to WW2, and rates of single family parenthood have skyrocketed over the last 40 years, not gone down.

So pretty much your entire view is based on fallacies that you've been fed by Afro-centrists and others interested in keeping you enslaved and angry. I am sorry for it but not much I can really do here.

 

[Asclepias]

There is the root of the problem as it exists today. I do not know one, not ONE white person that ever owned slaves.

What happened 200 years ago, happened. It was ugly it wasn't the right thing to do. However, living in the past presents little positive for the future.

I know a girl that was raped when she was a child, she bore a child as a result of that rape. The child, now an adult doesn't blame all males for the fact that her mom was raped, she doesn't play victim. She's happily married with children of her own.

You can choose to dwell in the past and become pitiful or you can move forward and make something of yourself. Nothing, absolutely NOTHING is holding anyone back. We're all born with the same opportunities.

Using your example was her mom repeatedly raped over and over and her mother before her?

Why does that matter today? Ands yes she was raped repeatedly, for years. It doesn't matter now, does it. Quit blaming people that are dead for your problems. Man up and become a productive member of society and encourage your kids to do the same thing.

Until you move forward, you are doomed to the hell you envision. Screw it, sh*t happens to everyone at some point. It's not my fault our ancestors had slaves, it's my job to make sure it doesn't happen, ever again. Yet you allow the government to keep you begging for the minimum when you could easily have anything you want.

It matters because you can excuse or correctly rationalize 1 incident. So you are saying her mom and grandmother were both raped repeatedly by different men and she did not teach her child to avoid men like the plague? Thats pretty amazing and speaks to her character as a person.

You cant man up if you dont even know how to be a man. If you are talking about me personally I can guarantee you I've already done so after identifying the reasons. Not taking that step goes against every problem solving method in the book.

 

[naturegirl]

Using your example was her mom repeatedly raped over and over and her mother before her?

Why does that matter today? Ands yes she was raped repeatedly, for years. It doesn't matter now, does it. Quit blaming people that are dead for your problems. Man up and become a productive member of society and encourage your kids to do the same thing.

Until you move forward, you are doomed to the hell you envision. Screw it, sh*t happens to everyone at some point. It's not my fault our ancestors had slaves, it's my job to make sure it doesn't happen, ever again. Yet you allow the government to keep you begging for the minimum when you could easily have anything you want.

It matters because you can excuse or correctly rationalize 1 incident. So you are saying her mom and grandmother were both raped repeatedly by different men and she did not teach her child to avoid men like the plague? Thats pretty amazing and speaks to her character as a person.

You cant man up if you dont even know how to be a man. If you are talking about me personally I can guarantee you I've already done so after identifying the reasons. Not taking that step goes against every problem solving method in the book.

So if you are the man you say you are shouldn't you be helping those that don't know how to be a man? Is complaining, bitching and playing victim helping anyone??

As I said, sh*t happens and yes it can be generational but somewhere someone needs to step up and change the perception. You are obviously not willing to do that, it's just easier to claim victimization and teach younger generations to do the same.

That's what the government has done, kept people in slavery by giving them only what that need to survive and telling them they shouldn't expect better. As a "victim" it will take generations and generations to overcome it.

 

[Asclepias]

translation: I hadn't considered that but since it goes against my entire theory I must dismiss it somehow.

Yes, racism is attributing characteristics based on race. It would seem elemental. But I suppose your formulation is "racism is whatever I don't like."

Actually that was one of my thought processes. I wondered why Blacks from other countries came over here with pride in who they were and a work ethic. That when I went on a search as to what was so different. I found out it was the particular brand of racism and slavery practiced in this country. Other countries just kept you in bondage (not to make light of it) but the US had a policy on how to make slaves compliant and docile due to the large number of them here in the states. They wanted no uprisings. They used a psychological approach combined with a physical one. The first thing they did is destroy the family unit and the traditional roles in that family.

Actually none of that is true. Slavery in the Caribbean was pretty much as it was here. Slave families were not often broken up and after the war there were slaves who wandered the South looking for their families. Additionally black men were far more likely than white men to be married prior to WW2, and rates of single family parenthood have skyrocketed over the last 40 years, not gone down.

So pretty much your entire view is based on fallacies that you've been fed by Afro-centrists and others interested in keeping you enslaved and angry. I am sorry for it but not much I can really do here.

Thats not true. Slavery in the islands had totally different dynamics that you will need to read a book about to come close to comprehending. I actually did that instead of dismissing it. The breakup families was very common and used as punishment and a way to control slaves. To say otherwise is a lie. Also those that got to stay together had the joy of watching their men rendered ineffective and weak. Masters and overseers raped the wives and daughters of slaves frequently. You can pretty much guess how big and strong a black father would appear to his daughter and wife after such episodes. So it seems pretty much your entire view is based on your opinion and not facts. I was once told not to argue with a fool because I will always loose. The fool has too much pratice.

 

[Asclepias]

Why does that matter today? Ands yes she was raped repeatedly, for years. It doesn't matter now, does it. Quit blaming people that are dead for your problems. Man up and become a productive member of society and encourage your kids to do the same thing.

Until you move forward, you are doomed to the hell you envision. Screw it, sh*t happens to everyone at some point. It's not my fault our ancestors had slaves, it's my job to make sure it doesn't happen, ever again. Yet you allow the government to keep you begging for the minimum when you could easily have anything you want.

It matters because you can excuse or correctly rationalize 1 incident. So you are saying her mom and grandmother were both raped repeatedly by different men and she did not teach her child to avoid men like the plague? Thats pretty amazing and speaks to her character as a person.

You cant man up if you dont even know how to be a man. If you are talking about me personally I can guarantee you I've already done so after identifying the reasons. Not taking that step goes against every problem solving method in the book.

So if you are the man you say you are shouldn't you be helping those that don't know how to be a man? Is complaining, bitching and playing victim helping anyone??

As I said, sh*t happens and yes it can be generational but somewhere someone needs to step up and change the perception. You are obviously not willing to do that, it's just easier to claim victimization and teach younger generations to do the same.

That's what the government has done, kept people in slavery but giving them only what that need to survive and telling them they shouldn't expect better. As a victim it will take generations and generations to overcome it.

I am helping others. You must have missed the entire thread before jumping in. I have stated it several times. I also was asked what the issue is. You calling me answering the question complaining, bitching and playing the victim is silly at best and ignorant at worst. I agree shit happens. I'm just not going to be silent about it because it makes white people uncomfortable.

 

[ClosedCaption]

If you show up with a dirty shirt and refuse to change it because someone else driving by splashed mud on it...then who's sitting there in a muddy shirt looking like an idiot? I don't really CARE why your shirt is dirty! I am however wondering why anyone would sit there in a wet, smelly shirt without doing something about it!

Change your shirt and get on with your life! Stop making excuses. Stop pretending that Life is fair. It isn't. It never has been. It never WILL be.

As I said in order for you to understand a situation you are saying its best not to find out the cause or care about the cause because the less information we have the better?

Are you really surprised that the same people you enslaved, treated unfairly and discriminated against are not socially at the same level as the Enslavers?

Because uh...

There is the root of the problem as it exists today. I do not know one, not ONE white person that ever owned slaves.

Of Course you don't...and that means, what?

What happened 200 years ago, happened. It was ugly it wasn't the right thing to do. However, living in the past presents little positive for the future.

What about 60 years ago? Still doesn't count? And why is this the only topic where the past should be ignored or forgotten? I mean, if you were making a vaccine you would want to find out the root cause wouldn't you?

I know a girl that was raped when she was a child, she bore a child as a result of that rape. The child, now an adult doesn't blame all males for the fact that her mom was raped, she doesn't play victim. She's happily married with children of her own.

Wow that's like...nothing we are talking about

You can choose to dwell in the past and become pitiful or you can move forward and make something of yourself. Nothing, absolutely NOTHING is holding anyone back. We're all born with the same opportunities.

False, that's a lie and a simple google search will prove you wrong on that point. People are different and peoples histories are different. To pretend its all the same is lying to yourself.

Question: Do you really expect the enslaved to be on the same level as the enslavers in just 50-60 years? Why? What example can you point to that reinforces that thought?

 

[naturegirl]

It matters because you can excuse or correctly rationalize 1 incident. So you are saying her mom and grandmother were both raped repeatedly by different men and she did not teach her child to avoid men like the plague? Thats pretty amazing and speaks to her character as a person.

You cant man up if you dont even know how to be a man. If you are talking about me personally I can guarantee you I've already done so after identifying the reasons. Not taking that step goes against every problem solving method in the book.

So if you are the man you say you are shouldn't you be helping those that don't know how to be a man? Is complaining, bitching and playing victim helping anyone??

As I said, sh*t happens and yes it can be generational but somewhere someone needs to step up and change the perception. You are obviously not willing to do that, it's just easier to claim victimization and teach younger generations to do the same.

That's what the government has done, kept people in slavery but giving them only what that need to survive and telling them they shouldn't expect better. As a victim it will take generations and generations to overcome it.

I am helping others. You must have missed the entire thread before jumping in. I have stated it several times. I also was asked what the issue is. You calling me answering the question complaining, bitching and playing the victim is silly at best and ignorant at worst. I agree shit happens. I'm just not going to be silent about it because it makes white people uncomfortable.

You're right, I didn't read the whole thread. I get you're a victim.......I get that's an excuse. The root of the issue goes back over 200 years, nothing we can do to go back and change anything we can only move forward from here. I'm not uncomfortable discussing this at all. We can talk about it all day long until you start calling me names or telling me I'm ignorant. I know then you aren't sincere, just looking for an argument and a reason to continue claiming victim hood. .

 

[ClosedCaption]

Are you trying to convince everyone that being knowledgeable of history means that we can never move forward?

How does one have anything to do with the other? Oprah is a broke bitch because she knows all about our history and even talks about it. That's why she wont ever be a thousandaire.

 

[Unkotare]

If I kicked my dog every time my wife said something that made me mad i would be a fool to say her actions were not the root or cause of the problem.

More illogic...

In the scenario above only YOU are the "root cause of the problem." The dog didn't make you mad, you just reacted like an asshole to something else (according to your scenario). The dog should bite YOU and nobody else. Is the notion of responsibility for YOUR own actions really so incomprehensible to you?

Why are you still addressing me? I thought you said you couldnt have a conversation with me? Did you have a change of heart?

Pointing out your lies, errors, and assaults on logic is a public service.