50 years later: has government dependency helped or hurt blacks?

[Asclepias]

So if you are the man you say you are shouldn't you be helping those that don't know how to be a man? Is complaining, bitching and playing victim helping anyone??

As I said, sh*t happens and yes it can be generational but somewhere someone needs to step up and change the perception. You are obviously not willing to do that, it's just easier to claim victimization and teach younger generations to do the same.

That's what the government has done, kept people in slavery but giving them only what that need to survive and telling them they shouldn't expect better. As a victim it will take generations and generations to overcome it.

I am helping others. You must have missed the entire thread before jumping in. I have stated it several times. I also was asked what the issue is. You calling me answering the question complaining, bitching and playing the victim is silly at best and ignorant at worst. I agree shit happens. I'm just not going to be silent about it because it makes white people uncomfortable.

You're right, I didn't read the whole thread. I get you're a victim.......I get that's an excuse. The root of the issue goes back over 200 years, nothing we can do to go back and change anything we can only move forward from here. I'm not uncomfortable discussing this at all. We can talk about it all day long until you start calling me names or telling me I'm ignorant. I know then you aren't sincere, just looking for an argument and a reason to continue claiming victim hood. .

I'm really wondering why you are offended. You assume I was complaining and bitching but its not ok to assume you are ignorant for not knowing what you are talking about? You just admitted you were ignorant to the discussion. Do you know what ignorant means?

There is nothing that can be done about the past. However we can go back and understand what happened and the affect it had on subsequent generations. In understanding the affects we can then solve our problems. Worked like a champ for me, my chhildren and other children I mentor. This is not a theory. Its been put into practice and time tested. ID the problem, understand why the problem occurs, develope a game plan to deal with the problem, and reassess. if you can find me a method that doesnt follow that same pattern I would be eager to see it.

 

[ClosedCaption]

Using your example was her mom repeatedly raped over and over and her mother before her?

Why does that matter today? Ands yes she was raped repeatedly, for years. It doesn't matter now, does it. Quit blaming people that are dead for your problems. Man up and become a productive member of society and encourage your kids to do the same thing.

Until you move forward, you are doomed to the hell you envision. Screw it, sh*t happens to everyone at some point. It's not my fault our ancestors had slaves, it's my job to make sure it doesn't happen, ever again. Yet you allow the government to keep you begging for the minimum when you could easily have anything you want.

It matters because you can excuse or correctly rationalize 1 incident. So you are saying her mom and grandmother were both raped repeatedly by different men and she did not teach her child to avoid men like the plague? Thats pretty amazing and speaks to her character as a person.

You cant man up if you dont even know how to be a man. If you are talking about me personally I can guarantee you I've already done so after identifying the reasons. Not taking that step goes against every problem solving method in the book.

Right! That's the reason the past matters. If she had an awful childhood because of it then that would explain her current mindstate or issues. But that's just something that psychologists do to try to understand the human mind.

Psychologists are wasting their time. They shouldn't ask about the past because apparently the past has nothing to do with the future

 

[Asclepias]

More illogic...

In the scenario above only YOU are the "root cause of the problem." The dog didn't make you mad, you just reacted like an asshole to something else (according to your scenario). The dog should bite YOU and nobody else. Is the notion of responsibility for YOUR own actions really so incomprehensible to you?

Why are you still addressing me? I thought you said you couldnt have a conversation with me? Did you have a change of heart?

Pointing out your lies, errors, and assaults on logic is a public service.

No you were talking to me. You addressed me. You may have resorted to doing the public service announcements but like i said before a petition would probably be easier. Just trying to help you out!

 

[Unkotare]

Why are you still addressing me? I thought you said you couldnt have a conversation with me? Did you have a change of heart?

Pointing out your lies, errors, and assaults on logic is a public service.

No you were talking to me. You addressed me.

Allowing everyone to see you shamelessly dodge your lies, errors, and failure of logic is part of the process.

 

[Asclepias]

Pointing out your lies, errors, and assaults on logic is a public service.

No you were talking to me. You addressed me.

Allowing everyone to see you shamelessly dodge your lies, errors, and failure of logic is part of the process.

And you are still addressing me? I've never had a marionette before. This is sort of fun!

 

[Oldstyle]

I am helping others. You must have missed the entire thread before jumping in. I have stated it several times. I also was asked what the issue is. You calling me answering the question complaining, bitching and playing the victim is silly at best and ignorant at worst. I agree shit happens. I'm just not going to be silent about it because it makes white people uncomfortable.

You're right, I didn't read the whole thread. I get you're a victim.......I get that's an excuse. The root of the issue goes back over 200 years, nothing we can do to go back and change anything we can only move forward from here. I'm not uncomfortable discussing this at all. We can talk about it all day long until you start calling me names or telling me I'm ignorant. I know then you aren't sincere, just looking for an argument and a reason to continue claiming victim hood. .

I'm really wondering why you are offended. You assume I was complaining and bitching but its not ok to assume you are ignorant for not knowing what you are talking about? You just admitted you were ignorant to the discussion. Do you know what ignorant means?

There is nothing that can be done about the past. However we can go back and understand what happened and the affect it had on subsequent generations. In understanding the affects we can then solve our problems. Worked like a champ for me, my chhildren and other children I mentor. This is not a theory. Its been put into practice and time tested. ID the problem, understand why the problem occurs, develope a game plan to deal with the problem, and reassess. if you can find me a method that doesnt follow that same pattern I would be eager to see it.

Your maintaining that the legacy of slavery is what's affecting young urban blacks in this country is laughable. The problem with inner city black's isn't something that was done to their great great grandfathers two hundred years ago.

Families were broken up as a result of slavery back then but families are broken up today as the result of a welfare system that encourages absentee fathers and unwed mothers raising kids on their own. Where is your outrage over that?

 

[Unkotare]

I've never had a marionette before.

Not even when you were 5? What was that, about 395 years ago?

 

[Asclepias]

You're right, I didn't read the whole thread. I get you're a victim.......I get that's an excuse. The root of the issue goes back over 200 years, nothing we can do to go back and change anything we can only move forward from here. I'm not uncomfortable discussing this at all. We can talk about it all day long until you start calling me names or telling me I'm ignorant. I know then you aren't sincere, just looking for an argument and a reason to continue claiming victim hood. .

I'm really wondering why you are offended. You assume I was complaining and bitching but its not ok to assume you are ignorant for not knowing what you are talking about? You just admitted you were ignorant to the discussion. Do you know what ignorant means?

There is nothing that can be done about the past. However we can go back and understand what happened and the affect it had on subsequent generations. In understanding the affects we can then solve our problems. Worked like a champ for me, my chhildren and other children I mentor. This is not a theory. Its been put into practice and time tested. ID the problem, understand why the problem occurs, develope a game plan to deal with the problem, and reassess. if you can find me a method that doesnt follow that same pattern I would be eager to see it.

Your maintaining that the legacy of slavery is what's affecting young urban blacks in this country is laughable. The problem with inner city black's isn't something that was done to their great great grandfathers two hundred years ago.

Families were broken up as a result of slavery back then but families are broken up today as the result of a welfare system that encourages absentee fathers and unwed mothers raising kids on their own. Where is your outrage over that?

Its ok with me if you go ahead and laugh. Doesnt change the fact that you are wrong. It seems like we cant get past the first hurdle which is whites being comfortable with the fact the root of the problem is with slavery and racism. You dont have to do much other than say "ok that seems possible". I do have outrage over the welfare system but its really not relevant to discuss it if you cant even consider that I speak the truth regarding past slavery and racism today.

 

[Asclepias]

I've never had a marionette before.

Not even when you were 5? What was that, about 395 years ago?

Nasturtium

 

[Oldstyle]

I'm really wondering why you are offended. You assume I was complaining and bitching but its not ok to assume you are ignorant for not knowing what you are talking about? You just admitted you were ignorant to the discussion. Do you know what ignorant means?

There is nothing that can be done about the past. However we can go back and understand what happened and the affect it had on subsequent generations. In understanding the affects we can then solve our problems. Worked like a champ for me, my chhildren and other children I mentor. This is not a theory. Its been put into practice and time tested. ID the problem, understand why the problem occurs, develope a game plan to deal with the problem, and reassess. if you can find me a method that doesnt follow that same pattern I would be eager to see it.

Your maintaining that the legacy of slavery is what's affecting young urban blacks in this country is laughable. The problem with inner city black's isn't something that was done to their great great grandfathers two hundred years ago.

Families were broken up as a result of slavery back then but families are broken up today as the result of a welfare system that encourages absentee fathers and unwed mothers raising kids on their own. Where is your outrage over that?

Its ok with me if you go ahead and laugh. Doesnt change the fact that you are wrong. It seems like we cant get past the first hurdle which is whites being comfortable with the fact the root of the problem is with slavery and racism. You dont have to do much other than say "ok that seems possible". I do have outrage over the welfare system but its really not relevant to discuss it if you cant even consider that I speak the truth regarding past slavery and racism today.

So when whites accept their "guilt" all this will change? Gee, since my great grandfather was an officer in the Massachusetts 54th infantry does that mean I get a pass on the slavery guilt thing or is my ancestor still guilty of "overt" racism even though he risked his life to end slavery?

 

[Pheonixops]

You push the whole "blame game" thing and then sit there and scratch your head because black teens respond to your message by doing less and expecting more. You're not doing these kids any favors. In fact you're dooming them to a life of underachievement and complacency. That's what concentrating on "root cause" gets you.

If you really cared about these kids you'd tell them that Life isn't fair...that they got dealt a bad hand and in order to overcome that they are going to have to work harder than most people. It's a message that wasn't given to many of their parents nor their grandparents and it's had a crippling effect on large portions of the black community.

Who is doing the "blame game"? A lot of times people that participate in risky anti-social behaviors , do so because they DON'T expect more and don't see or think about future and the consequences of their actions. The "root cause" of many problems for many types of individuals IS passed down from generation to generation, it's helping break that cycle that will achieve positive results.

Good points in your second paragraph, some of these people were given the message that "Life isn't fair", unfortunately for some people that's where the message stopped, thus that's where malaise and complacency as well as anti-social behaviors take over. For a large majority of the other people, like myself; the message continued that I was "going to have to work harder than most people." and that was the predominate message for most of the Black people I am related to and know as well as knew.

 

[Unkotare]

I've never had a marionette before.

Not even when you were 5? What was that, about 395 years ago?

Nasturtium

Is that all you had to eat 400 years ago? You know, around the time the police officer put the arquebus up to your head?

 

[Oldstyle]

So you have "outrage" over the welfare system...but nowhere have I seen you voice that outrage. Instead you pontificate repeatedly about how we need to address the wrongs that were done to blacks two hundred years ago? I ask again...how does examining the "roots" of racism in this country alleviate the very real problems that we face in the black community? Does that in anyway change the prevailing attitudes among young urban blacks that education and hard work are for "suckers"? You're so concerned with history that you're totally ignoring what's happening to young blacks NOW.

 

[Oldstyle]

You push the whole "blame game" thing and then sit there and scratch your head because black teens respond to your message by doing less and expecting more. You're not doing these kids any favors. In fact you're dooming them to a life of underachievement and complacency. That's what concentrating on "root cause" gets you.

If you really cared about these kids you'd tell them that Life isn't fair...that they got dealt a bad hand and in order to overcome that they are going to have to work harder than most people. It's a message that wasn't given to many of their parents nor their grandparents and it's had a crippling effect on large portions of the black community.

Who is doing the "blame game"? A lot of times people that participate in risky anti-social behaviors , do so because they DON'T expect more and don't see or think about future and the consequences of their actions. The "root cause" of many problems for many types of individuals IS passed down from generation to generation, it's helping break that cycle that will achieve positive results.

Good points in your second paragraph, some of these people were given the message that "Life isn't fair", unfortunately for some people that's where the message stopped, thus that's where malaise and complacency as well as anti-social behaviors take over. For a large majority of the other people, like myself; the message continued that I was "going to have to work harder than most people." and that was the predominate message for most of the Black people I am related to and know as well as knew.

The "message" that has been given to several generations of urban blacks is that they are victims and should be compensated by society because they are victims. That's the message that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton preach repeatedly. The strength of America has always been the self reliance of our people. What we're witnessing now in this country is part of the population that's bought into the notion that bettering yourself through education and hard work is for suckers and chumps. If you're REALLY smart you can hang out and get paid for doing nothing.

 

[The Rabbi]

Actually that was one of my thought processes. I wondered why Blacks from other countries came over here with pride in who they were and a work ethic. That when I went on a search as to what was so different. I found out it was the particular brand of racism and slavery practiced in this country. Other countries just kept you in bondage (not to make light of it) but the US had a policy on how to make slaves compliant and docile due to the large number of them here in the states. They wanted no uprisings. They used a psychological approach combined with a physical one. The first thing they did is destroy the family unit and the traditional roles in that family.

Actually none of that is true. Slavery in the Caribbean was pretty much as it was here. Slave families were not often broken up and after the war there were slaves who wandered the South looking for their families. Additionally black men were far more likely than white men to be married prior to WW2, and rates of single family parenthood have skyrocketed over the last 40 years, not gone down.

So pretty much your entire view is based on fallacies that you've been fed by Afro-centrists and others interested in keeping you enslaved and angry. I am sorry for it but not much I can really do here.

Thats not true. Slavery in the islands had totally different dynamics that you will need to read a book about to come close to comprehending. I actually did that instead of dismissing it. The breakup families was very common and used as punishment and a way to control slaves. To say otherwise is a lie. Also those that got to stay together had the joy of watching their men rendered ineffective and weak. Masters and overseers raped the wives and daughters of slaves frequently. You can pretty much guess how big and strong a black father would appear to his daughter and wife after such episodes. So it seems pretty much your entire view is based on your opinion and not facts. I was once told not to argue with a fool because I will always loose. The fool has too much pratice.

Only if your information comes from watching Roots and reading Uncle Tom's cabin. The reality was quite different.

 

[Mac1958]

So you have "outrage" over the welfare system...but nowhere have I seen you voice that outrage. Instead you pontificate repeatedly about how we need to address the wrongs that were done to blacks two hundred years ago? I ask again...how does examining the "roots" of racism in this country alleviate the very real problems that we face in the black community? Does that in anyway change the prevailing attitudes among young urban blacks that education and hard work are for "suckers"? You're so concerned with history that you're totally ignoring what's happening to young blacks NOW.

Absolutely, bravo.

Sincerely and adequately addressing the problems that young blacks are facing now, today, would require a hard look at black crime, the horrific percentage of fatherless families, and the "soft bigotry of reduced expectations". A democrat politician isn't likely to touch those issues with a ten foot pole, since they don't want to antagonize such an important voting constituency. Neither are so many of the black "leaders" whose very livelihood are based on the same constituency.

So they point the finger and talk about the past, it's all they have. Ignore the elephant in the room and remind us about slavery.

Does racism still exist? Obviously. But fixing our growing racial divide will require effort on both sides, and there's just not enough of that on the Left. It's just too easy and too profitable to point the finger.

.

 

[Asclepias]

Your maintaining that the legacy of slavery is what's affecting young urban blacks in this country is laughable. The problem with inner city black's isn't something that was done to their great great grandfathers two hundred years ago.

Families were broken up as a result of slavery back then but families are broken up today as the result of a welfare system that encourages absentee fathers and unwed mothers raising kids on their own. Where is your outrage over that?

Its ok with me if you go ahead and laugh. Doesnt change the fact that you are wrong. It seems like we cant get past the first hurdle which is whites being comfortable with the fact the root of the problem is with slavery and racism. You dont have to do much other than say "ok that seems possible". I do have outrage over the welfare system but its really not relevant to discuss it if you cant even consider that I speak the truth regarding past slavery and racism today.

So when whites accept their "guilt" all this will change? Gee, since my great grandfather was an officer in the Massachusetts 54th infantry does that mean I get a pass on the slavery guilt thing or is my ancestor still guilty of "overt" racism even though he risked his life to end slavery?

When whites can face the facts and consider the thoughts of the very people they proclaim to want to help a discussion can go from there. Thats why we cant seem to talk because whites are too busy denying and back pedaling.

 

[Asclepias]

Not even when you were 5? What was that, about 395 years ago?

Nasturtium

Is that all you had to eat 400 years ago? You know, around the time the police officer put the arquebus up to your head?

verbena bonariensis lollipop

 

[Asclepias]

So you have "outrage" over the welfare system...but nowhere have I seen you voice that outrage. Instead you pontificate repeatedly about how we need to address the wrongs that were done to blacks two hundred years ago? I ask again...how does examining the "roots" of racism in this country alleviate the very real problems that we face in the black community? Does that in anyway change the prevailing attitudes among young urban blacks that education and hard work are for "suckers"? You're so concerned with history that you're totally ignoring what's happening to young blacks NOW.

The reason I pontificate. Is to explain the circumstances. You are too busy denying them to even comprehend what youre reading. You keep asking the same question in different ways. You are still going to get the same answer. There is a sequence of events that need to happen in order to discuss this honestly and openly between Whites and Blacks. First you need to clean your own house. Next you need to ask permission to pass judgement on mine. After that you need to accept what we know as the root cause of the issues. Lastly you need to stop assuming and attributing your own meaning to what I am saying. If you dont know I wont think less of you if you ask for clarification. As a matter of fact i will think more of person that comes in learning mode than know it all mode.

 

[Asclepias]

Actually none of that is true. Slavery in the Caribbean was pretty much as it was here. Slave families were not often broken up and after the war there were slaves who wandered the South looking for their families. Additionally black men were far more likely than white men to be married prior to WW2, and rates of single family parenthood have skyrocketed over the last 40 years, not gone down.

So pretty much your entire view is based on fallacies that you've been fed by Afro-centrists and others interested in keeping you enslaved and angry. I am sorry for it but not much I can really do here.

Thats not true. Slavery in the islands had totally different dynamics that you will need to read a book about to come close to comprehending. I actually did that instead of dismissing it. The breakup families was very common and used as punishment and a way to control slaves. To say otherwise is a lie. Also those that got to stay together had the joy of watching their men rendered ineffective and weak. Masters and overseers raped the wives and daughters of slaves frequently. You can pretty much guess how big and strong a black father would appear to his daughter and wife after such episodes. So it seems pretty much your entire view is based on your opinion and not facts. I was once told not to argue with a fool because I will always loose. The fool has too much pratice.

Only if your information comes from watching Roots and reading Uncle Tom's cabin. The reality was quite different.

Seeing as the stories were passed down by my ancestors i think I'll go with our rich tradition of oral re telling. My parents and grandparents are from Mississippi. I've heard first hand accounts. Then i went to the books written by Black authors that in turn either experienced it first hand or likewise had it handed down. To finish it off The Libary of Congress has actual audio recordings of slaves just backing up and validating the stories and literature I had already read. What makes more sense? Believe a white author that probably has ulterior motives or believe what my people said happened?