6 Proofs That God Exists

[ding]

One thing also is human sight is quite limited regarding the entire spectrum; many animals see beyond what humans can see right in front of their faces. Quite bizarre really, thinking in these terms of sight/light limitations about various unknowns.

Probably because they don't have a sense of self like humans do. That kind of gets in the way of being.

How do you know that animals don’t have a sense of self?

I didn't say they had no sense of self. I said they don't have a sense of self like humans do.

In what way is it significant whether they have a sense of self like humans or not?

That it can impede our ability to see reality.

Isnt everybody’s sense of reality different?

That depends upon if they are being subjective or objective.

Wouldn't the answer be the same for both?

No. Because the definition of reality is the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them. Being objective is how one sees the world or the state of things as it actually exists. Whereas being subjective leads to seeing the world or state of things in an idealistic or notional way. The very definition of reality implies a final state of fact.

Right but when you say “how things actually exist” that is just a compilation of everything’s unique perspective of it. So the situations are one in the same

What you are describing is perception of reality. Reality and perception of reality are not necessarily the same. But by definition, reality implies a final state of fact that is independent of perception.

If I take your thought process to it's logical conclusion, you would have to conclude there was no such thing as reality. Is that what you think? And more importantly... is that how you behave?

I guess you could call reality “gods perception” if you want to set one perspective as a standard... but other than that what “is” is what we perceive and what we perceive is different and unique per the eye of the beholder

That belief would be fine IF your actions didn't belie that. Would you like for me to provide an example?

Yes please

Ok let's take Donald Trump as he is a polarizing figure and likely to illicit not only polarizing views but overwhelmingly strong polarizing views. Is it reality that he was a bad president?

That’s a great example and question. Per my previous explanation of reality I’d say that the answer is different depending on who is answering. Some will say yes and others will say no

I'm not asking you that - but what you just described is perception of reality and not reality. What I am asking you is do you believe that it is absolutely 100% objective truth that Donald Trump was a bad president and if YOUR perception should be accepted as the actual indisputable reality.

Because if you say, "no, it's not reality" then you have no basis for believing your opinion is any better than someone else's different opinion. And if you say, "yes, it is the objective truth and therefore reality" then you have just acknowledged that there does in actuality exist a final state of fact and objective truth which is known as reality.

I’m saying no it is not reality, it is simply perceived reality that is differently perceptive by each entity that perceives it. So you are correct there is no basis to claim that my perception is any better than anybody else’s. It simply is what it is for me and I understand that it could be completely different for you. No right and no wrong

So... if I searched through your posts I wouldn't find any instances where you acted like what you were arguing wasn't 100% the objective truth? And that others were wrong for believing otherwise?

I’d say the majority of my posts here are inquisitive with the intent to explore ideas. The posts where I engage more forcefully defending an idea or position are solely based on either my personal opinions or as a position I’m defending in a debate. Sometimes I’ll take positions I don’t personally believe in but I’ll debate that position just to shake out more areas of thought.

Ok, then. I'll accept you at your word. But luckily for me, I do believe that it is logical that there does exist a final state of fact for all things which can be called objective truth and/or reality. So I can argue for true things with conviction. And if my argument is logically proven incorrect then I have learned the truth and will reevaluate every other position in light of the truth, so it's all good.

But for the record perception of reality - which is what you have been arguing - does in and of itself point to reality. Otherwise there would never be any perceptions of reality or expectations of such.

Correct. The only thing we can know for sure is that we are perceiving a reality. A wise man once said “I think therefore I am” I think that was Dan Aykroyd

You can argue your reality with conviction because you think it is proven fact but you said yourself that science or other facts could change that reality. Doesn’t that right there show that what you think is absolute reality is in fact always susceptible to change making it pliable and subjective?

Not to be picky or anything but that belief you just stated was stated as if it were a reality. If you were going to be consistent it would be that there may or may not be an actual reality.

Please pick away... Of course everything I say is a product of something that I either perceive or believe so that’s a given I don’t find it useful to repetitively qualify everything as opinion.

But yes, I believe that the only thing we can know is real is the fact that we are perceiving a sense of reality. I know if I feel pain or sadness or happiness. That sense of self and awareness and the feelings associated with that is all we can’t really know as truth. The rest is a product of interpretation

I don't see how you can possibly see that as real and nothing else. As even that would be a perception of reality and not reality itself. Reality isn't a smorgasbord that you can pick and choose what is real. Perception of reality is though.

Give me an example of something that you think is absolutely real and not a product of your perception

Great question. Everything is made manifest by mind, right? So one always should evaluate whether he has a preference for an outcome and if that preference is influencing his perception of reality. With that said, if one dies to self and has no preference for an outcome then he can see objective truth which is reality. So that's the how. But you asked for a what, right?

The love for my wife and her love for me is absolutely real. How about you?

That’s a wonderful example but it falls in line with what I’ve been saying. Your feelings of love is your perception the only think you cam know for sure is that you feel the way you feel. I don’t want to challenge the other part of your statement as I don’t want to get too personal.

I like your observation about ego death but that only serves those seeking objectivity and fulfillment along those lines. Somebody like Trump who is the polar opposite is served by perceiving his reality through full ego. Who am Into say one is more accurate than the other? I can only speak for myself and my own perception of right and wrong.

Being objective is the only way to see reality. And yes, it can be done. For example is it objective truth to say people should wear seat belts and look both ways when they cross the street? Of course it is because those are standards which exist for logical reasons.

I could make an argument against that as that advice is dependent on the end goal and the conditions of the world we perceive to live in. We could get into examples like this using statistics, cause and effect, math and science that all produce predictable results and confidently say they are agreeable absolute facts. But those “truths” only exist within the realm of reality in which we think we exist. The Matrix sets up a great, simplistic and understandable scenario to showcase what I’m talking about. If our reality is a game, or a dream, or a fragment of a greater existence then we only understand that which exists in our perceived reality. 1+1 = 2 makes sense in our realm because it is based on our perception of reality and the laws we understand that govern that realm. But what if we are in a dream, what if time went backwards, What if we exist in an infinite amount of dimensions?? Absolute truth changes depending on each other those scenarios. Sorry if this is getting too deep in the weeds. It’s a trippy rabbit hole

So setting aside that my actions here might have repercussions in some other dimension, part of objective truth is understanding distributions. Objective truth requires one to argue all sides of a reality to arrive at objective truth. That would apply especially to outcomes we don't find pleasing. Objective truth would never define a specific outcome when reality calls for a statistical outcome because objectivity requires all scenarios to be considered without bias. Not doing so is subjective which is the root cause for perceptions of reality instead of reality.

As for the Matrix argument, a fish may not know he is wet but he knows the shark bearing down on him is real. My point here is that creating self fulfilling models of reality is subjective and in no way negates that there is a state of things that are real. Just because everything is made manifest by mind does not mean a reality does not exist outside of that manifestation. It only means that there is a chance that some minds won't be able to put aside their biases to see things the way they really are.

Good points and I’d agree that is a very fair minded and logical way to go about life as we know it. Your fish scenario gave me a counterpoint. Yes there is a “real” threat imposed by the shark but the unknown is what happens when the shark eats the fish. Does the fish wake up from a dream or go to another state of existence or cease to exists? I won’t argue that the threats you perceive in this life feel real and have predictable consequences but the fact that you don’t know what happens when you “die” is interesting don’t you think? What if the moment after you “die” you wake up in bed. Would then all these things you perceive in this life be absolute and real to you at that point? What of the dreams you experience in this life? Do you currently wake up and consider those experiences real?

To be perfectly honest I have no idea what happens at death. Nor do I give it a lot of thought. I prefer to live in the present and limit thoughts of future to those things reserved for the future like planning. If you are arguing that alternate realities are real then by association your present reality is real too.

Let me ask it this way... can perception of reality and reality be two different things?

 

[Slade3200]

But I will say for you to know your wife loves you takes faith

The definition of faith is placing complete trust in someone or something. I never place complete trust in anyone or anything without good reason. So even faith requires one to be objective and see reality. Which despite your objections does exist in reality because by definition reality is the state of the world or things as they REALLY EXIST.

What really exists is only perceived by you and what you believe. You can’t know that I really exist and that I’m really conversing with you. All you can know is that you think you are having a philosophical discussion about reality. You could be having it with yourself

Perceptions and reality only match up when one's perception of reality is really the way things exist. At all other times, perception of reality is not reality and are two different things.

The question is about your statement “when reality is really the way things exist” you may think you know the way things really are if you’re being objective. You may find consensus from those around you but the fact remains that everybody could still be wrong. The fact that you don’t understand things like infinity, creation, and afterlife showcases that. Maybe existence is completely different than you currently perceive it. Maybe after you die you will understand reality and existence in a completely different way... kind of like waking up from a dream

 

[ding]

But I will say for you to know your wife loves you takes faith

The definition of faith is placing complete trust in someone or something. I never place complete trust in anyone or anything without good reason. So even faith requires one to be objective and see reality. Which despite your objections does exist in reality because by definition reality is the state of the world or things as they REALLY EXIST.

What really exists is only perceived by you and what you believe. You can’t know that I really exist and that I’m really conversing with you. All you can know is that you think you are having a philosophical discussion about reality. You could be having it with yourself

Perceptions and reality only match up when one's perception of reality is really the way things exist. At all other times, perception of reality is not reality and are two different things.

The question is about your statement “when reality is really the way things exist” you may think you know the way things really are if you’re being objective. You may find consensus from those around you but the fact remains that everybody could still be wrong. The fact that you don’t understand things like infinity, creation, and afterlife showcases that. Maybe existence is completely different than you currently perceive it. Maybe after you die you will understand reality and existence in a completely different way... kind of like waking up from a dream

Yes, but that wouldn't negate the final state of fact or reality. It would only mean we were wrong. Sort of like when you said TN was a troll and I pointed out that the reality is that sometimes he trolls people and sometimes he doesn't which is a 100% true statement. That is reality.

 

[BULLDOG]

Religion certainly isn't necessary for morality to exist..

Religion is more about God and loving than morality. The result of being a loving person is morality. We humans are meant to love and be loved.

Would you explain that to the religious nuts who oppose gay marriage? They seem to be more wrapped up in their own twisted view of what morality is than they are about any God.

 

[Slade3200]

One thing also is human sight is quite limited regarding the entire spectrum; many animals see beyond what humans can see right in front of their faces. Quite bizarre really, thinking in these terms of sight/light limitations about various unknowns.

Probably because they don't have a sense of self like humans do. That kind of gets in the way of being.

How do you know that animals don’t have a sense of self?

I didn't say they had no sense of self. I said they don't have a sense of self like humans do.

In what way is it significant whether they have a sense of self like humans or not?

That it can impede our ability to see reality.

Isnt everybody’s sense of reality different?

That depends upon if they are being subjective or objective.

Wouldn't the answer be the same for both?

No. Because the definition of reality is the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them. Being objective is how one sees the world or the state of things as it actually exists. Whereas being subjective leads to seeing the world or state of things in an idealistic or notional way. The very definition of reality implies a final state of fact.

Right but when you say “how things actually exist” that is just a compilation of everything’s unique perspective of it. So the situations are one in the same

What you are describing is perception of reality. Reality and perception of reality are not necessarily the same. But by definition, reality implies a final state of fact that is independent of perception.

If I take your thought process to it's logical conclusion, you would have to conclude there was no such thing as reality. Is that what you think? And more importantly... is that how you behave?

I guess you could call reality “gods perception” if you want to set one perspective as a standard... but other than that what “is” is what we perceive and what we perceive is different and unique per the eye of the beholder

That belief would be fine IF your actions didn't belie that. Would you like for me to provide an example?

Yes please

Ok let's take Donald Trump as he is a polarizing figure and likely to illicit not only polarizing views but overwhelmingly strong polarizing views. Is it reality that he was a bad president?

That’s a great example and question. Per my previous explanation of reality I’d say that the answer is different depending on who is answering. Some will say yes and others will say no

I'm not asking you that - but what you just described is perception of reality and not reality. What I am asking you is do you believe that it is absolutely 100% objective truth that Donald Trump was a bad president and if YOUR perception should be accepted as the actual indisputable reality.

Because if you say, "no, it's not reality" then you have no basis for believing your opinion is any better than someone else's different opinion. And if you say, "yes, it is the objective truth and therefore reality" then you have just acknowledged that there does in actuality exist a final state of fact and objective truth which is known as reality.

I’m saying no it is not reality, it is simply perceived reality that is differently perceptive by each entity that perceives it. So you are correct there is no basis to claim that my perception is any better than anybody else’s. It simply is what it is for me and I understand that it could be completely different for you. No right and no wrong

So... if I searched through your posts I wouldn't find any instances where you acted like what you were arguing wasn't 100% the objective truth? And that others were wrong for believing otherwise?

I’d say the majority of my posts here are inquisitive with the intent to explore ideas. The posts where I engage more forcefully defending an idea or position are solely based on either my personal opinions or as a position I’m defending in a debate. Sometimes I’ll take positions I don’t personally believe in but I’ll debate that position just to shake out more areas of thought.

Ok, then. I'll accept you at your word. But luckily for me, I do believe that it is logical that there does exist a final state of fact for all things which can be called objective truth and/or reality. So I can argue for true things with conviction. And if my argument is logically proven incorrect then I have learned the truth and will reevaluate every other position in light of the truth, so it's all good.

But for the record perception of reality - which is what you have been arguing - does in and of itself point to reality. Otherwise there would never be any perceptions of reality or expectations of such.

Correct. The only thing we can know for sure is that we are perceiving a reality. A wise man once said “I think therefore I am” I think that was Dan Aykroyd

You can argue your reality with conviction because you think it is proven fact but you said yourself that science or other facts could change that reality. Doesn’t that right there show that what you think is absolute reality is in fact always susceptible to change making it pliable and subjective?

Not to be picky or anything but that belief you just stated was stated as if it were a reality. If you were going to be consistent it would be that there may or may not be an actual reality.

Please pick away... Of course everything I say is a product of something that I either perceive or believe so that’s a given I don’t find it useful to repetitively qualify everything as opinion.

But yes, I believe that the only thing we can know is real is the fact that we are perceiving a sense of reality. I know if I feel pain or sadness or happiness. That sense of self and awareness and the feelings associated with that is all we can’t really know as truth. The rest is a product of interpretation

I don't see how you can possibly see that as real and nothing else. As even that would be a perception of reality and not reality itself. Reality isn't a smorgasbord that you can pick and choose what is real. Perception of reality is though.

Give me an example of something that you think is absolutely real and not a product of your perception

Great question. Everything is made manifest by mind, right? So one always should evaluate whether he has a preference for an outcome and if that preference is influencing his perception of reality. With that said, if one dies to self and has no preference for an outcome then he can see objective truth which is reality. So that's the how. But you asked for a what, right?

The love for my wife and her love for me is absolutely real. How about you?

That’s a wonderful example but it falls in line with what I’ve been saying. Your feelings of love is your perception the only think you cam know for sure is that you feel the way you feel. I don’t want to challenge the other part of your statement as I don’t want to get too personal.

I like your observation about ego death but that only serves those seeking objectivity and fulfillment along those lines. Somebody like Trump who is the polar opposite is served by perceiving his reality through full ego. Who am Into say one is more accurate than the other? I can only speak for myself and my own perception of right and wrong.

Being objective is the only way to see reality. And yes, it can be done. For example is it objective truth to say people should wear seat belts and look both ways when they cross the street? Of course it is because those are standards which exist for logical reasons.

I could make an argument against that as that advice is dependent on the end goal and the conditions of the world we perceive to live in. We could get into examples like this using statistics, cause and effect, math and science that all produce predictable results and confidently say they are agreeable absolute facts. But those “truths” only exist within the realm of reality in which we think we exist. The Matrix sets up a great, simplistic and understandable scenario to showcase what I’m talking about. If our reality is a game, or a dream, or a fragment of a greater existence then we only understand that which exists in our perceived reality. 1+1 = 2 makes sense in our realm because it is based on our perception of reality and the laws we understand that govern that realm. But what if we are in a dream, what if time went backwards, What if we exist in an infinite amount of dimensions?? Absolute truth changes depending on each other those scenarios. Sorry if this is getting too deep in the weeds. It’s a trippy rabbit hole

So setting aside that my actions here might have repercussions in some other dimension, part of objective truth is understanding distributions. Objective truth requires one to argue all sides of a reality to arrive at objective truth. That would apply especially to outcomes we don't find pleasing. Objective truth would never define a specific outcome when reality calls for a statistical outcome because objectivity requires all scenarios to be considered without bias. Not doing so is subjective which is the root cause for perceptions of reality instead of reality.

As for the Matrix argument, a fish may not know he is wet but he knows the shark bearing down on him is real. My point here is that creating self fulfilling models of reality is subjective and in no way negates that there is a state of things that are real. Just because everything is made manifest by mind does not mean a reality does not exist outside of that manifestation. It only means that there is a chance that some minds won't be able to put aside their biases to see things the way they really are.

Good points and I’d agree that is a very fair minded and logical way to go about life as we know it. Your fish scenario gave me a counterpoint. Yes there is a “real” threat imposed by the shark but the unknown is what happens when the shark eats the fish. Does the fish wake up from a dream or go to another state of existence or cease to exists? I won’t argue that the threats you perceive in this life feel real and have predictable consequences but the fact that you don’t know what happens when you “die” is interesting don’t you think? What if the moment after you “die” you wake up in bed. Would then all these things you perceive in this life be absolute and real to you at that point? What of the dreams you experience in this life? Do you currently wake up and consider those experiences real?

To be perfectly honest I have no idea what happens at death. Nor do I give it a lot of thought. I prefer to live in the present and limit thoughts of future to those things reserved for the future like planning. If you are arguing that alternate realities are real then by association your present reality is real too.

Let me ask it this way... can perception of reality and reality be two different things?

You describe a very practical point of view and a healthy way in my opinion to view life. The philosophical concepts I'm bringing up don't have many valuable practical purposes, they may even have a damaging effect on navigating life as it can cause one to be indecisive, noncommittal and detached. But for me it is grounding and humbling. It takes me away from my ego and reminds me that their much more to life than I understand and perceive and there is alway more to learn and different points of view to see every situation with. Submitting to this higher power, that which I do not know and can not control ha is a reminder to help me let go and focus on that which I actually can control.

The main point being... To each their own. Some people are served better by exploring the unknown and striving for objective understanding of as much as they can. Others are content on setting goals and objectives and achieving those objectives at all costs without regard to truth or honesty or consideration of the objective reality.

 

[Slade3200]

Let me ask it this way... can perception of reality and reality be two different things?

I think that perception of reality is the only reality we can really know exists... Everything else is contained within the game. It could be real or it may not be

 

[Slade3200]

But I will say for you to know your wife loves you takes faith

The definition of faith is placing complete trust in someone or something. I never place complete trust in anyone or anything without good reason. So even faith requires one to be objective and see reality. Which despite your objections does exist in reality because by definition reality is the state of the world or things as they REALLY EXIST.

What really exists is only perceived by you and what you believe. You can’t know that I really exist and that I’m really conversing with you. All you can know is that you think you are having a philosophical discussion about reality. You could be having it with yourself

Perceptions and reality only match up when one's perception of reality is really the way things exist. At all other times, perception of reality is not reality and are two different things.

The question is about your statement “when reality is really the way things exist” you may think you know the way things really are if you’re being objective. You may find consensus from those around you but the fact remains that everybody could still be wrong. The fact that you don’t understand things like infinity, creation, and afterlife showcases that. Maybe existence is completely different than you currently perceive it. Maybe after you die you will understand reality and existence in a completely different way... kind of like waking up from a dream

Yes, but that wouldn't negate the final state of fact or reality. It would only mean we were wrong. Sort of like when you said TN was a troll and I pointed out that the reality is that sometimes he trolls people and sometimes he doesn't which is a 100% true statement. That is reality.

Thats 100% your reality. I may see everything he says as trolling and he may see nothing he says as trolling. It's subjective

 

[Astrostar]

If everything just happened, then there can be no eternality of anything and no rational reason for what exists to exist unless it's always been. And science has proven that this is not the case. And philosophy rationalizes that this isn't the case. And mathematics reveals that this cannot be the case. But GOD isn't a material being. HE reveals that HE is in fact SPIRIT. Unlike all the gods of the ancients, and all the things "moderns" desire ---- which are material. SPIRIT has no beginning.

This argument exists because the ones posing it are aware that no evidence of a "god" exists, so they try their best to manufacture one that will appeal to the ignorant, those most accepting of "religious doctrine."

 

[ding]

One thing also is human sight is quite limited regarding the entire spectrum; many animals see beyond what humans can see right in front of their faces. Quite bizarre really, thinking in these terms of sight/light limitations about various unknowns.

Probably because they don't have a sense of self like humans do. That kind of gets in the way of being.

How do you know that animals don’t have a sense of self?

I didn't say they had no sense of self. I said they don't have a sense of self like humans do.

In what way is it significant whether they have a sense of self like humans or not?

That it can impede our ability to see reality.

Isnt everybody’s sense of reality different?

That depends upon if they are being subjective or objective.

Wouldn't the answer be the same for both?

No. Because the definition of reality is the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them. Being objective is how one sees the world or the state of things as it actually exists. Whereas being subjective leads to seeing the world or state of things in an idealistic or notional way. The very definition of reality implies a final state of fact.

Right but when you say “how things actually exist” that is just a compilation of everything’s unique perspective of it. So the situations are one in the same

What you are describing is perception of reality. Reality and perception of reality are not necessarily the same. But by definition, reality implies a final state of fact that is independent of perception.

If I take your thought process to it's logical conclusion, you would have to conclude there was no such thing as reality. Is that what you think? And more importantly... is that how you behave?

I guess you could call reality “gods perception” if you want to set one perspective as a standard... but other than that what “is” is what we perceive and what we perceive is different and unique per the eye of the beholder

That belief would be fine IF your actions didn't belie that. Would you like for me to provide an example?

Yes please

Ok let's take Donald Trump as he is a polarizing figure and likely to illicit not only polarizing views but overwhelmingly strong polarizing views. Is it reality that he was a bad president?

That’s a great example and question. Per my previous explanation of reality I’d say that the answer is different depending on who is answering. Some will say yes and others will say no

I'm not asking you that - but what you just described is perception of reality and not reality. What I am asking you is do you believe that it is absolutely 100% objective truth that Donald Trump was a bad president and if YOUR perception should be accepted as the actual indisputable reality.

Because if you say, "no, it's not reality" then you have no basis for believing your opinion is any better than someone else's different opinion. And if you say, "yes, it is the objective truth and therefore reality" then you have just acknowledged that there does in actuality exist a final state of fact and objective truth which is known as reality.

I’m saying no it is not reality, it is simply perceived reality that is differently perceptive by each entity that perceives it. So you are correct there is no basis to claim that my perception is any better than anybody else’s. It simply is what it is for me and I understand that it could be completely different for you. No right and no wrong

So... if I searched through your posts I wouldn't find any instances where you acted like what you were arguing wasn't 100% the objective truth? And that others were wrong for believing otherwise?

I’d say the majority of my posts here are inquisitive with the intent to explore ideas. The posts where I engage more forcefully defending an idea or position are solely based on either my personal opinions or as a position I’m defending in a debate. Sometimes I’ll take positions I don’t personally believe in but I’ll debate that position just to shake out more areas of thought.

Ok, then. I'll accept you at your word. But luckily for me, I do believe that it is logical that there does exist a final state of fact for all things which can be called objective truth and/or reality. So I can argue for true things with conviction. And if my argument is logically proven incorrect then I have learned the truth and will reevaluate every other position in light of the truth, so it's all good.

But for the record perception of reality - which is what you have been arguing - does in and of itself point to reality. Otherwise there would never be any perceptions of reality or expectations of such.

Correct. The only thing we can know for sure is that we are perceiving a reality. A wise man once said “I think therefore I am” I think that was Dan Aykroyd

You can argue your reality with conviction because you think it is proven fact but you said yourself that science or other facts could change that reality. Doesn’t that right there show that what you think is absolute reality is in fact always susceptible to change making it pliable and subjective?

Not to be picky or anything but that belief you just stated was stated as if it were a reality. If you were going to be consistent it would be that there may or may not be an actual reality.

Please pick away... Of course everything I say is a product of something that I either perceive or believe so that’s a given I don’t find it useful to repetitively qualify everything as opinion.

But yes, I believe that the only thing we can know is real is the fact that we are perceiving a sense of reality. I know if I feel pain or sadness or happiness. That sense of self and awareness and the feelings associated with that is all we can’t really know as truth. The rest is a product of interpretation

I don't see how you can possibly see that as real and nothing else. As even that would be a perception of reality and not reality itself. Reality isn't a smorgasbord that you can pick and choose what is real. Perception of reality is though.

Give me an example of something that you think is absolutely real and not a product of your perception

Great question. Everything is made manifest by mind, right? So one always should evaluate whether he has a preference for an outcome and if that preference is influencing his perception of reality. With that said, if one dies to self and has no preference for an outcome then he can see objective truth which is reality. So that's the how. But you asked for a what, right?

The love for my wife and her love for me is absolutely real. How about you?

That’s a wonderful example but it falls in line with what I’ve been saying. Your feelings of love is your perception the only think you cam know for sure is that you feel the way you feel. I don’t want to challenge the other part of your statement as I don’t want to get too personal.

I like your observation about ego death but that only serves those seeking objectivity and fulfillment along those lines. Somebody like Trump who is the polar opposite is served by perceiving his reality through full ego. Who am Into say one is more accurate than the other? I can only speak for myself and my own perception of right and wrong.

Being objective is the only way to see reality. And yes, it can be done. For example is it objective truth to say people should wear seat belts and look both ways when they cross the street? Of course it is because those are standards which exist for logical reasons.

I could make an argument against that as that advice is dependent on the end goal and the conditions of the world we perceive to live in. We could get into examples like this using statistics, cause and effect, math and science that all produce predictable results and confidently say they are agreeable absolute facts. But those “truths” only exist within the realm of reality in which we think we exist. The Matrix sets up a great, simplistic and understandable scenario to showcase what I’m talking about. If our reality is a game, or a dream, or a fragment of a greater existence then we only understand that which exists in our perceived reality. 1+1 = 2 makes sense in our realm because it is based on our perception of reality and the laws we understand that govern that realm. But what if we are in a dream, what if time went backwards, What if we exist in an infinite amount of dimensions?? Absolute truth changes depending on each other those scenarios. Sorry if this is getting too deep in the weeds. It’s a trippy rabbit hole

So setting aside that my actions here might have repercussions in some other dimension, part of objective truth is understanding distributions. Objective truth requires one to argue all sides of a reality to arrive at objective truth. That would apply especially to outcomes we don't find pleasing. Objective truth would never define a specific outcome when reality calls for a statistical outcome because objectivity requires all scenarios to be considered without bias. Not doing so is subjective which is the root cause for perceptions of reality instead of reality.

As for the Matrix argument, a fish may not know he is wet but he knows the shark bearing down on him is real. My point here is that creating self fulfilling models of reality is subjective and in no way negates that there is a state of things that are real. Just because everything is made manifest by mind does not mean a reality does not exist outside of that manifestation. It only means that there is a chance that some minds won't be able to put aside their biases to see things the way they really are.

Good points and I’d agree that is a very fair minded and logical way to go about life as we know it. Your fish scenario gave me a counterpoint. Yes there is a “real” threat imposed by the shark but the unknown is what happens when the shark eats the fish. Does the fish wake up from a dream or go to another state of existence or cease to exists? I won’t argue that the threats you perceive in this life feel real and have predictable consequences but the fact that you don’t know what happens when you “die” is interesting don’t you think? What if the moment after you “die” you wake up in bed. Would then all these things you perceive in this life be absolute and real to you at that point? What of the dreams you experience in this life? Do you currently wake up and consider those experiences real?

To be perfectly honest I have no idea what happens at death. Nor do I give it a lot of thought. I prefer to live in the present and limit thoughts of future to those things reserved for the future like planning. If you are arguing that alternate realities are real then by association your present reality is real too.

Let me ask it this way... can perception of reality and reality be two different things?

You describe a very practical point of view and a healthy way in my opinion to view life. The philosophical concepts I'm bringing up don't have many valuable practical purposes, they may even have a damaging effect on navigating life as it can cause one to be indecisive, noncommittal and detached. But for me it is grounding and humbling. It takes me away from my ego and reminds me that their much more to life than I understand and perceive and there is alway more to learn and different points of view to see every situation with. Submitting to this higher power, that which I do not know and can not control ha is a reminder to help me let go and focus on that which I actually can control.

The main point being... To each their own. Some people are served better by exploring the unknown and striving for objective understanding of as much as they can. Others are content on setting goals and objectives and achieving those objectives at all costs without regard to truth or honesty or consideration of the objective reality.

You are describing something very near and dear to my heart but I go about it a different way is all. Rather than doubt an ultimate reality exists - which I believe is a dangerous proposition - I doubt my ability to discover it instead. I do so until a point is reached that I can no longer deny reality. Most of my denials are about myself. The process I am describing is how I bring myself to see reality about myself. I am fully aware that my self will fight this process tooth and nail. So I must constantly be a watcher of myself. To guard against seeing myself and others I like in better lights or seeing others I don't like in worse lights. Only then is my head clear to see reality as it is. Being a watcher of myself has sharpened my thinking immensely.

 

[ding]

Let me ask it this way... can perception of reality and reality be two different things?

I think that perception of reality is the only reality we can really know exists... Everything else is contained within the game. It could be real or it may not be

It's a dangerous proposition to say that a true north compass doesn't exist at all. A very slippery slope. I'm not sure it's a good idea for man - who is never free of defect - to believe there is no thing as truth or that it can be anything he wants it to be.

 

[ding]

Everything else is contained within the game. It could be real or it may not be

You do realize that the Matrix was based on an ultimate reality, right? That outside of the matrix was a true reality. And since I do believe that God is existence and we share in His existence, His existence is the ultimate reality. But that in no way negates the reality of our current existence as we share in His in a different way.

 

[Meriweather]

Would you explain that to the religious nuts who oppose gay marriage? They seem to be more wrapped up in their own twisted view of what morality is than they are about any God.

Gay unions are a political view, not a religious one. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with whether or not a person embraces religion.

 

[ding]

But I will say for you to know your wife loves you takes faith

The definition of faith is placing complete trust in someone or something. I never place complete trust in anyone or anything without good reason. So even faith requires one to be objective and see reality. Which despite your objections does exist in reality because by definition reality is the state of the world or things as they REALLY EXIST.

What really exists is only perceived by you and what you believe. You can’t know that I really exist and that I’m really conversing with you. All you can know is that you think you are having a philosophical discussion about reality. You could be having it with yourself

Perceptions and reality only match up when one's perception of reality is really the way things exist. At all other times, perception of reality is not reality and are two different things.

The question is about your statement “when reality is really the way things exist” you may think you know the way things really are if you’re being objective. You may find consensus from those around you but the fact remains that everybody could still be wrong. The fact that you don’t understand things like infinity, creation, and afterlife showcases that. Maybe existence is completely different than you currently perceive it. Maybe after you die you will understand reality and existence in a completely different way... kind of like waking up from a dream

Yes, but that wouldn't negate the final state of fact or reality. It would only mean we were wrong. Sort of like when you said TN was a troll and I pointed out that the reality is that sometimes he trolls people and sometimes he doesn't which is a 100% true statement. That is reality.

Thats 100% your reality. I may see everything he says as trolling and he may see nothing he says as trolling. It's subjective

Not if you die to self and have no preference for an outcome it isn't. If you did that you would have written what I did which was the 100% truth. Sometimes he trolls people and sometimes he doesn't.

 

[alang1216]

If everything just happened, then there can be no eternality of anything and no rational reason for what exists to exist unless it's always been. And science has proven that this is not the case. And philosophy rationalizes that this isn't the case. And mathematics reveals that this cannot be the case. But GOD isn't a material being. HE reveals that HE is in fact SPIRIT. Unlike all the gods of the ancients, and all the things "moderns" desire ---- which are material. SPIRIT has no beginning.

Even if everything you wrote was true, there is no link between this SPIRIT and the God of the Bible.

 

[Slade3200]

Let me ask it this way... can perception of reality and reality be two different things?

I think that perception of reality is the only reality we can really know exists... Everything else is contained within the game. It could be real or it may not be

It's a dangerous proposition to say that a true north compass doesn't exist at all. A very slippery slope. I'm not sure it's a good idea for man - who is never free of defect - to believe there is no thing as truth or that it can be anything he wants it to be.

I agree that it is a dangerous road to go down and not a healthy philosophy to be teaching to the masses. But as uncomfortable as it may be it is an interesting concept to explore.

 

[ding]

Let me ask it this way... can perception of reality and reality be two different things?

I think that perception of reality is the only reality we can really know exists... Everything else is contained within the game. It could be real or it may not be

It's a dangerous proposition to say that a true north compass doesn't exist at all. A very slippery slope. I'm not sure it's a good idea for man - who is never free of defect - to believe there is no thing as truth or that it can be anything he wants it to be.

I agree that it is a dangerous road to go down and not a healthy philosophy to be teaching to the masses. But as uncomfortable as it may be it is an interesting concept to explore.

It is a fun discussion. For all I know I am a construct in a computer simulation. But even that suggests an ultimate reality because programs run code and code determines outcomes.

 

[Slade3200]

Everything else is contained within the game. It could be real or it may not be

You do realize that the Matrix was based on an ultimate reality, right? That outside of the matrix was a true reality. And since I do believe that God is existence and we share in His existence, His existence is the ultimate reality. But that in no way negates the reality of our current existence as we share in His in a different way.

The thing about the Matrix is they found a way to actually see and experience that other reality. We don't have that in a factual way. We have ideas that have been corrupted through religion that we use to try and explain God and teach the masses how to behave but I see that as man made. Like those in the matrix that have not yet taken the pill, the people suspect there is more to life but don't have the ability to really know what's real and what isn't. Do you think the things happening in the Matrix are absolute reality or subjective perceptions of reality?

 

[Slade3200]

Let me ask it this way... can perception of reality and reality be two different things?

I think that perception of reality is the only reality we can really know exists... Everything else is contained within the game. It could be real or it may not be

It's a dangerous proposition to say that a true north compass doesn't exist at all. A very slippery slope. I'm not sure it's a good idea for man - who is never free of defect - to believe there is no thing as truth or that it can be anything he wants it to be.

I agree that it is a dangerous road to go down and not a healthy philosophy to be teaching to the masses. But as uncomfortable as it may be it is an interesting concept to explore.

It is a fun discussion. For all I know I am a construct in a computer simulation. But even that suggests an ultimate reality because programs run code and code determines outcomes.

I've enjoyed the talk... Thanks for engaging the way you did... I'll take the discussion as "Real Talk" ;-)

 

[ding]

Everything else is contained within the game. It could be real or it may not be

You do realize that the Matrix was based on an ultimate reality, right? That outside of the matrix was a true reality. And since I do believe that God is existence and we share in His existence, His existence is the ultimate reality. But that in no way negates the reality of our current existence as we share in His in a different way.

The thing about the Matrix is they found a way to actually see and experience that other reality. We don't have that in a factual way. We have ideas that have been corrupted through religion that we use to try and explain God and teach the masses how to behave but I see that as man made. Like those in the matrix that have not yet taken the pill, the people suspect there is more to life but don't have the ability to really know what's real and what isn't. Do you think the things happening in the Matrix are absolute reality or subjective perceptions of reality?

I wouldn't waste my time thinking about an alternate reality to be honest. Nothing good can come from stealing time from the present. It's better for me to enjoy the right things, the right way for the right reasons. Life's a journey and I have already won the cosmic lottery.

According to the story being in the Matrix was the alternate reality. Being used for power generation was the reality. Being subjective involves bias. I'm not sure if bias played a part in the Matrix or at least not a big part anyway. So not sure how to answer your question about subjective perceptions of reality. Man's problem isn't that he is living in an alternate reality, man's problem is rationalizing wrong as right.

 

[Slade3200]

Everything else is contained within the game. It could be real or it may not be

You do realize that the Matrix was based on an ultimate reality, right? That outside of the matrix was a true reality. And since I do believe that God is existence and we share in His existence, His existence is the ultimate reality. But that in no way negates the reality of our current existence as we share in His in a different way.

The thing about the Matrix is they found a way to actually see and experience that other reality. We don't have that in a factual way. We have ideas that have been corrupted through religion that we use to try and explain God and teach the masses how to behave but I see that as man made. Like those in the matrix that have not yet taken the pill, the people suspect there is more to life but don't have the ability to really know what's real and what isn't. Do you think the things happening in the Matrix are absolute reality or subjective perceptions of reality?

I wouldn't waste my time thinking about an alternate reality to be honest. Nothing good can come from stealing time from the present. It's better for me to enjoy the right things, the right way for the right reasons. Life's a journey and I have already won the cosmic lottery.

According to the story being in the Matrix was the alternate reality. Being used for power generation was the reality. Being subjective involves bias. I'm not sure if bias played a part in the Matrix or at least not a big part anyway. So not sure how to answer your question about subjective perceptions of reality. Man's problem isn't that he is living in an alternate reality, man's problem is rationalizing wrong as right.

What it Gods realty is the Real Reality? An eternal reality based in infinity which we humans in this time can not yet understand. And what if our reality is a fragment of the real? A finite linear perception.

I agree, no point in wasting too much time pondering this as the more important is the here and now... I just like dropping food for thought.