6 Proofs That God Exists

[frigidweirdo]

You believe. Believing is accepting without knowing.

Jesus said, "Blessed are they who believe without seeing." He wasn't kidding. The thing is, I know. However, you probably won't believe that I do know. I am not stuck with belief, but you are. Ironic, isn't it? Knowing what I know now, I can argue belief without knowing is preferable, and agree it is blessed.

Yeah, the powerful love people who blindly accept.

 

[ding]

Everything else is contained within the game. It could be real or it may not be

You do realize that the Matrix was based on an ultimate reality, right? That outside of the matrix was a true reality. And since I do believe that God is existence and we share in His existence, His existence is the ultimate reality. But that in no way negates the reality of our current existence as we share in His in a different way.

The thing about the Matrix is they found a way to actually see and experience that other reality. We don't have that in a factual way. We have ideas that have been corrupted through religion that we use to try and explain God and teach the masses how to behave but I see that as man made. Like those in the matrix that have not yet taken the pill, the people suspect there is more to life but don't have the ability to really know what's real and what isn't. Do you think the things happening in the Matrix are absolute reality or subjective perceptions of reality?

I wouldn't waste my time thinking about an alternate reality to be honest. Nothing good can come from stealing time from the present. It's better for me to enjoy the right things, the right way for the right reasons. Life's a journey and I have already won the cosmic lottery.

According to the story being in the Matrix was the alternate reality. Being used for power generation was the reality. Being subjective involves bias. I'm not sure if bias played a part in the Matrix or at least not a big part anyway. So not sure how to answer your question about subjective perceptions of reality. Man's problem isn't that he is living in an alternate reality, man's problem is rationalizing wrong as right.

What it Gods realty is the Real Reality? An eternal reality based in infinity which we humans in this time can not yet understand. And what if our reality is a fragment of the real? A finite linear perception.

I agree, no point in wasting too much time pondering this as the more important is the here and now... I just like dropping food for thought.

I don't waste time thinking about the destination. Giving thanks and praise to God is a different story. That has practical benefits beyond imagine.

My perception of God is that God is infinite logic, infinite truth, infinite intelligence, infinite wisdom, infinite knowledge, infinite love, infinite patience, infinite justice, infinite mercy, infinite kindness and infinite goodness. I am not saying God has those attributes. I am saying God is those attributes. Such that mind has always existed: that this is a life‑breeding universe because the constant presence of mind made it so and imbued his creation with His attributes.

Would that also mean that God is infinite pain, and infinite evil and infinite sadness?

Then it begs the question of whether good and evil actually exist in a significant way.

Ahhh.... now we get into it.

Those are all negations. For example, cold is the absence of heat, darkness is the absence of light, and evil is the absence of good.

But the direction you are heading is into the inscrutable ways of God. Here is what Maimonides said on the subject...

[MEN frequently think that the evils in the world are more numerous than the good things, that just isn't the case. It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils.]​

Passages like that lose me. Where do y'all get that God is absolute goodness from? I mean it sounds nice but sounds like a bias subjective reality and not an objective one.

I see Happiness and unhappiness as the same thing. Each state being felt as a comparison of the other. I don't think one can feel true happiness without also have felt true despair. I understand the religious explanation of God being the positive and all negative being the absence of but that explanation sounds more convenient than anything. If God is existence and infinite then that means he is everything... good and bad. That should be the logical objective way of viewing it, right?

That paraphrase was from a well known Jewish Rabbi who lived about a 800 years ago and was taken from his book, The Guide for the Perplexed. His conclusions are based upon observations and logic.

I would ask you to actually catalog your day if you really believe the bad and good are equal or nearly equal. I've done it. It's not even close. Even on my worst day it's not close. It's man's nature to think there is more bad than good. It's probably even worse today with 24/7 news. But it just isn't so.

Think of it this way, if life is so bad, why are you still living it? Because I submit that life is pretty fucking amazing considering we have all won the cosmic lottery. It's the whole to be or not to be question. Given that the overwhelming majority choose to be instead of not be, I'd say the proof is in the pudding.

The objective way of looking at it is that bad is the absence of good. That good is extant and bad isn't. We know this because life is overwhelmingly good. And when life isn't overwhelmingly good then good ultimately will come from it. Man prefers good over evil. Man doesn't do evil for evil's sake. Man does evil for the sake of his own good. And when man does do evil, rather than abandoning the concept of good and evil, he rationalizes that he didn't do evil. That's how much man values good. And that's how we know good is extant and evil is the absence of good.

 

[frigidweirdo]

And the "Do not test the lord".... wow, that's the biggest get out clause of all.

In my opinion it may well be the number one reason why people who seek do not find.

Yeah, logic, being sensible, using your brain, all getting in the way of finding that imaginary friend.

 

[frigidweirdo]

"He's real, but don't try and find if he's real" er.... because he's not.....

Actually, He goes beyond our perception of "real". We only think we know reality. Or maybe it is better phrased as we have only a small grasp of reality.

But then making stuff up isn't going to help, is it?

 

[Slade3200]

Everything else is contained within the game. It could be real or it may not be

You do realize that the Matrix was based on an ultimate reality, right? That outside of the matrix was a true reality. And since I do believe that God is existence and we share in His existence, His existence is the ultimate reality. But that in no way negates the reality of our current existence as we share in His in a different way.

The thing about the Matrix is they found a way to actually see and experience that other reality. We don't have that in a factual way. We have ideas that have been corrupted through religion that we use to try and explain God and teach the masses how to behave but I see that as man made. Like those in the matrix that have not yet taken the pill, the people suspect there is more to life but don't have the ability to really know what's real and what isn't. Do you think the things happening in the Matrix are absolute reality or subjective perceptions of reality?

I wouldn't waste my time thinking about an alternate reality to be honest. Nothing good can come from stealing time from the present. It's better for me to enjoy the right things, the right way for the right reasons. Life's a journey and I have already won the cosmic lottery.

According to the story being in the Matrix was the alternate reality. Being used for power generation was the reality. Being subjective involves bias. I'm not sure if bias played a part in the Matrix or at least not a big part anyway. So not sure how to answer your question about subjective perceptions of reality. Man's problem isn't that he is living in an alternate reality, man's problem is rationalizing wrong as right.

What it Gods realty is the Real Reality? An eternal reality based in infinity which we humans in this time can not yet understand. And what if our reality is a fragment of the real? A finite linear perception.

I agree, no point in wasting too much time pondering this as the more important is the here and now... I just like dropping food for thought.

I don't waste time thinking about the destination. Giving thanks and praise to God is a different story. That has practical benefits beyond imagine.

My perception of God is that God is infinite logic, infinite truth, infinite intelligence, infinite wisdom, infinite knowledge, infinite love, infinite patience, infinite justice, infinite mercy, infinite kindness and infinite goodness. I am not saying God has those attributes. I am saying God is those attributes. Such that mind has always existed: that this is a life‑breeding universe because the constant presence of mind made it so and imbued his creation with His attributes.

Would that also mean that God is infinite pain, and infinite evil and infinite sadness?

Then it begs the question of whether good and evil actually exist in a significant way.

Ahhh.... now we get into it.

Those are all negations. For example, cold is the absence of heat, darkness is the absence of light, and evil is the absence of good.

But the direction you are heading is into the inscrutable ways of God. Here is what Maimonides said on the subject...

[MEN frequently think that the evils in the world are more numerous than the good things, that just isn't the case. It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils.]​

Passages like that lose me. Where do y'all get that God is absolute goodness from? I mean it sounds nice but sounds like a bias subjective reality and not an objective one.

I see Happiness and unhappiness as the same thing. Each state being felt as a comparison of the other. I don't think one can feel true happiness without also have felt true despair. I understand the religious explanation of God being the positive and all negative being the absence of but that explanation sounds more convenient than anything. If God is existence and infinite then that means he is everything... good and bad. That should be the logical objective way of viewing it, right?

That paraphrase was from a well known Jewish Rabbi who lived about a 800 years ago and was taken from his book, The Guide for the Perplexed. His conclusions are based upon observations and logic.

I would ask you to actually catalog your day if you really believe the bad and good are equal or nearly equal. I've done it. It's not even close. Even on my worst day it's not close. It's man's nature to think there is more bad than good. It's probably even worse today with 24/7 news. But it just isn't so.

Think of it this way, if life is so bad, why are you still living it? Because I submit that life is pretty fucking amazing considering we have all won the cosmic lottery. It's the whole to be or not to be question. Given that the overwhelming majority choose to be instead of not be, I'd say the proof is in the pudding.

The objective way of looking at it is that bad is the absence of good. That good is extant and bad isn't. We know this because life is overwhelmingly good. And when life isn't overwhelmingly good then good ultimately will come from it. Man prefers good over evil. Man doesn't do evil for evil's sake. Man does evil for the sake of his own good. And when man does do evil, rather than abandoning the concept of good and evil, he rationalizes that he didn't do evil. That's how much man values good. And that's how we know good is extant and evil is the absence of good.

I don't think there needs to be more or less of either. It is in our nature to survive and gravitate towards things that fulfill and feel good. So I'd imagine that most healthy humans do experience far more good than bad. I've lived most of my life that way feeling very lucky and happy and grateful. I've also gone through some hard times and know what its like to spend year after year in a very depressed and sad state of mind... When in that state the question you just asked, Why are you still living it? gets asked on a daily basis and it is a struggle. I appreciate the tools that religions have developed and the explanations around God that give us humans answers to the unknown. I think it helps a lot of people and is a great tool to use for a society and civilization like ours. But if I'm being unbiased and looking at the situation with pure objecting to the best of my ability I can't tell myself that the fairytale is true. The best I can do is tell myself that I just don't know and that anything is possible.

 

[Baron Von Murderpaws]

Christ died on the cross and rose the 3rd day and the ascension occurred 40 days after his resurrection. God gave us morning and night, four beautiful seasons to enjoy, and the fact that we will be with our fellow believers when we die thanks to Jesus for washing away our sins with his shed blood.

Still waiting for proof.

 

[ding]

Everything else is contained within the game. It could be real or it may not be

You do realize that the Matrix was based on an ultimate reality, right? That outside of the matrix was a true reality. And since I do believe that God is existence and we share in His existence, His existence is the ultimate reality. But that in no way negates the reality of our current existence as we share in His in a different way.

The thing about the Matrix is they found a way to actually see and experience that other reality. We don't have that in a factual way. We have ideas that have been corrupted through religion that we use to try and explain God and teach the masses how to behave but I see that as man made. Like those in the matrix that have not yet taken the pill, the people suspect there is more to life but don't have the ability to really know what's real and what isn't. Do you think the things happening in the Matrix are absolute reality or subjective perceptions of reality?

I wouldn't waste my time thinking about an alternate reality to be honest. Nothing good can come from stealing time from the present. It's better for me to enjoy the right things, the right way for the right reasons. Life's a journey and I have already won the cosmic lottery.

According to the story being in the Matrix was the alternate reality. Being used for power generation was the reality. Being subjective involves bias. I'm not sure if bias played a part in the Matrix or at least not a big part anyway. So not sure how to answer your question about subjective perceptions of reality. Man's problem isn't that he is living in an alternate reality, man's problem is rationalizing wrong as right.

What it Gods realty is the Real Reality? An eternal reality based in infinity which we humans in this time can not yet understand. And what if our reality is a fragment of the real? A finite linear perception.

I agree, no point in wasting too much time pondering this as the more important is the here and now... I just like dropping food for thought.

I don't waste time thinking about the destination. Giving thanks and praise to God is a different story. That has practical benefits beyond imagine.

My perception of God is that God is infinite logic, infinite truth, infinite intelligence, infinite wisdom, infinite knowledge, infinite love, infinite patience, infinite justice, infinite mercy, infinite kindness and infinite goodness. I am not saying God has those attributes. I am saying God is those attributes. Such that mind has always existed: that this is a life‑breeding universe because the constant presence of mind made it so and imbued his creation with His attributes.

Would that also mean that God is infinite pain, and infinite evil and infinite sadness?

Then it begs the question of whether good and evil actually exist in a significant way.

Ahhh.... now we get into it.

Those are all negations. For example, cold is the absence of heat, darkness is the absence of light, and evil is the absence of good.

But the direction you are heading is into the inscrutable ways of God. Here is what Maimonides said on the subject...

[MEN frequently think that the evils in the world are more numerous than the good things, that just isn't the case. It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils.]​

Passages like that lose me. Where do y'all get that God is absolute goodness from? I mean it sounds nice but sounds like a bias subjective reality and not an objective one.

I see Happiness and unhappiness as the same thing. Each state being felt as a comparison of the other. I don't think one can feel true happiness without also have felt true despair. I understand the religious explanation of God being the positive and all negative being the absence of but that explanation sounds more convenient than anything. If God is existence and infinite then that means he is everything... good and bad. That should be the logical objective way of viewing it, right?

That paraphrase was from a well known Jewish Rabbi who lived about a 800 years ago and was taken from his book, The Guide for the Perplexed. His conclusions are based upon observations and logic.

I would ask you to actually catalog your day if you really believe the bad and good are equal or nearly equal. I've done it. It's not even close. Even on my worst day it's not close. It's man's nature to think there is more bad than good. It's probably even worse today with 24/7 news. But it just isn't so.

Think of it this way, if life is so bad, why are you still living it? Because I submit that life is pretty fucking amazing considering we have all won the cosmic lottery. It's the whole to be or not to be question. Given that the overwhelming majority choose to be instead of not be, I'd say the proof is in the pudding.

The objective way of looking at it is that bad is the absence of good. That good is extant and bad isn't. We know this because life is overwhelmingly good. And when life isn't overwhelmingly good then good ultimately will come from it. Man prefers good over evil. Man doesn't do evil for evil's sake. Man does evil for the sake of his own good. And when man does do evil, rather than abandoning the concept of good and evil, he rationalizes that he didn't do evil. That's how much man values good. And that's how we know good is extant and evil is the absence of good.

I don't think there needs to be more or less of either. It is in our nature to survive and gravitate towards things that fulfill and feel good. So I'd imagine that most healthy humans do experience far more good than bad. I've lived most of my life that way feeling very lucky and happy and grateful. I've also gone through some hard times and know what its like to spend year after year in a very depressed and sad state of mind... When in that state the question you just asked, Why are you still living it? gets asked on a daily basis and it is a struggle. I appreciate the tools that religions have developed and the explanations around God that give us humans answers to the unknown. I think it helps a lot of people and is a great tool to use for a society and civilization like ours. But if I'm being unbiased and looking at the situation with pure objecting to the best of my ability I can't tell myself that the fairytale is true. The best I can do is tell myself that I just don't know and that anything is possible.

I believe most people - especially people from developed countries - take for granted the incredibly rare and amazing gift they have received. I'm not sure how anyone can complain about their lot in life.

 

[Meriweather]

But then making stuff up isn't going to help, is it?

Shrug. I'm not the one making things up. Nor am I trying to change anyone's mind. Impart a little understanding maybe, for those who do not believe about those who do believe. It's not imaginary. That's the excuse non-believer might offer themselves why they do not need to believe, but those who do believe have reason, logic, and sometimes knowledge.

 

[BULLDOG]

Would you explain that to the religious nuts who oppose gay marriage? They seem to be more wrapped up in their own twisted view of what morality is than they are about any God.

Gay unions are a political view, not a religious one. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with whether or not a person embraces religion.

I agree. Now, if you could convince the religious nuts of that ........

 

[frigidweirdo]

But then making stuff up isn't going to help, is it?

Shrug. I'm not the one making things up. Nor am I trying to change anyone's mind. Impart a little understanding maybe, for those who do not believe about those who do believe. It's not imaginary. That's the excuse non-believer might offer themselves why they do not need to believe, but those who do believe have reason, logic, and sometimes knowledge.

The issue here is that some said there's 6 "proof" or evidence that God exists.

So far I've seen none. And so far all we've got is people believing, making things up and deciding it is so without any evidence at all.

This is the topic of conversation.

 

[Meriweather]

The issue here is that some said there's 6 "proof" or evidence that God exists.

I teach science. Proof is physical evidence. I don't know of any physical evidence of God's existence. You and I seem to agree on that. However, I do know that God exists. You tell me I don't know I can only believe. Shrug. I know, but again I have no physical evidence, merely testimony. There is no reason for you to believe me, and I am just offering insight on why so many believe with no physical evidence and how that belief has nothing to do with imagining or imagination.

 

[Slade3200]

Everything else is contained within the game. It could be real or it may not be

You do realize that the Matrix was based on an ultimate reality, right? That outside of the matrix was a true reality. And since I do believe that God is existence and we share in His existence, His existence is the ultimate reality. But that in no way negates the reality of our current existence as we share in His in a different way.

The thing about the Matrix is they found a way to actually see and experience that other reality. We don't have that in a factual way. We have ideas that have been corrupted through religion that we use to try and explain God and teach the masses how to behave but I see that as man made. Like those in the matrix that have not yet taken the pill, the people suspect there is more to life but don't have the ability to really know what's real and what isn't. Do you think the things happening in the Matrix are absolute reality or subjective perceptions of reality?

I wouldn't waste my time thinking about an alternate reality to be honest. Nothing good can come from stealing time from the present. It's better for me to enjoy the right things, the right way for the right reasons. Life's a journey and I have already won the cosmic lottery.

According to the story being in the Matrix was the alternate reality. Being used for power generation was the reality. Being subjective involves bias. I'm not sure if bias played a part in the Matrix or at least not a big part anyway. So not sure how to answer your question about subjective perceptions of reality. Man's problem isn't that he is living in an alternate reality, man's problem is rationalizing wrong as right.

What it Gods realty is the Real Reality? An eternal reality based in infinity which we humans in this time can not yet understand. And what if our reality is a fragment of the real? A finite linear perception.

I agree, no point in wasting too much time pondering this as the more important is the here and now... I just like dropping food for thought.

I don't waste time thinking about the destination. Giving thanks and praise to God is a different story. That has practical benefits beyond imagine.

My perception of God is that God is infinite logic, infinite truth, infinite intelligence, infinite wisdom, infinite knowledge, infinite love, infinite patience, infinite justice, infinite mercy, infinite kindness and infinite goodness. I am not saying God has those attributes. I am saying God is those attributes. Such that mind has always existed: that this is a life‑breeding universe because the constant presence of mind made it so and imbued his creation with His attributes.

Would that also mean that God is infinite pain, and infinite evil and infinite sadness?

Then it begs the question of whether good and evil actually exist in a significant way.

Ahhh.... now we get into it.

Those are all negations. For example, cold is the absence of heat, darkness is the absence of light, and evil is the absence of good.

But the direction you are heading is into the inscrutable ways of God. Here is what Maimonides said on the subject...

[MEN frequently think that the evils in the world are more numerous than the good things, that just isn't the case. It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils.]​

Passages like that lose me. Where do y'all get that God is absolute goodness from? I mean it sounds nice but sounds like a bias subjective reality and not an objective one.

I see Happiness and unhappiness as the same thing. Each state being felt as a comparison of the other. I don't think one can feel true happiness without also have felt true despair. I understand the religious explanation of God being the positive and all negative being the absence of but that explanation sounds more convenient than anything. If God is existence and infinite then that means he is everything... good and bad. That should be the logical objective way of viewing it, right?

That paraphrase was from a well known Jewish Rabbi who lived about a 800 years ago and was taken from his book, The Guide for the Perplexed. His conclusions are based upon observations and logic.

I would ask you to actually catalog your day if you really believe the bad and good are equal or nearly equal. I've done it. It's not even close. Even on my worst day it's not close. It's man's nature to think there is more bad than good. It's probably even worse today with 24/7 news. But it just isn't so.

Think of it this way, if life is so bad, why are you still living it? Because I submit that life is pretty fucking amazing considering we have all won the cosmic lottery. It's the whole to be or not to be question. Given that the overwhelming majority choose to be instead of not be, I'd say the proof is in the pudding.

The objective way of looking at it is that bad is the absence of good. That good is extant and bad isn't. We know this because life is overwhelmingly good. And when life isn't overwhelmingly good then good ultimately will come from it. Man prefers good over evil. Man doesn't do evil for evil's sake. Man does evil for the sake of his own good. And when man does do evil, rather than abandoning the concept of good and evil, he rationalizes that he didn't do evil. That's how much man values good. And that's how we know good is extant and evil is the absence of good.

I don't think there needs to be more or less of either. It is in our nature to survive and gravitate towards things that fulfill and feel good. So I'd imagine that most healthy humans do experience far more good than bad. I've lived most of my life that way feeling very lucky and happy and grateful. I've also gone through some hard times and know what its like to spend year after year in a very depressed and sad state of mind... When in that state the question you just asked, Why are you still living it? gets asked on a daily basis and it is a struggle. I appreciate the tools that religions have developed and the explanations around God that give us humans answers to the unknown. I think it helps a lot of people and is a great tool to use for a society and civilization like ours. But if I'm being unbiased and looking at the situation with pure objecting to the best of my ability I can't tell myself that the fairytale is true. The best I can do is tell myself that I just don't know and that anything is possible.

I believe most people - especially people from developed countries - take for granted the incredibly rare and amazing gift they have received. I'm not sure how anyone can complain about their lot in life.

Have you ever grieved a loved one or had your heart broken in a way where you felt like you struggled to breath and had a hole torn open inside?

Take that feeling and make it the predominant feeling in your body for an extended amount of time... years. Many people live with that

 

[frigidweirdo]

The issue here is that some said there's 6 "proof" or evidence that God exists.

I teach science. Proof is physical evidence. I don't know of any physical evidence of God's existence. You and I seem to agree on that. However, I do know that God exists. You tell me I don't know I can only believe. Shrug. I know, but again I have no physical evidence, merely testimony. There is no reason for you to believe me, and I am just offering insight on why so many believe with no physical evidence and how that belief has nothing to do with imagining or imagination.

Ah good, so there's no evidence God exists at all.

You "know" God exists.

To be honest there are plenty of people of forums like this that have extensive "knowledge" of things, and yet the reality is they don't know anything.

You have "testimony", but then that "testimony" could actually be something else, couldn't it?

You're interpreting things in a way that's convenient for you. If you were born a Muslim, it's be convenient for you too, like seeing things in clouds.

 

[BreezeWood]

The issue here is that some said there's 6 "proof" or evidence that God exists.

I teach science. Proof is physical evidence. I don't know of any physical evidence of God's existence. You and I seem to agree on that. However, I do know that God exists. You tell me I don't know I can only believe. Shrug. I know, but again I have no physical evidence, merely testimony. There is no reason for you to believe me, and I am just offering insight on why so many believe with no physical evidence and how that belief has nothing to do with imagining or imagination.

,

and how that belief has nothing to do with imagining or imagination.

.
- and from the beginning for the desert religions there has never been an encounter witnessed by more than one person ... the one making the claim. the satisfaction being theirs alone.

 

[Meriweather]

Ah good, so there's no evidence God exists at all.

You "know" God exists.

To be honest there are plenty of people of forums like this that have extensive "knowledge" of things, and yet the reality is they don't know anything.

You have "testimony", but then that "testimony" could actually be something else, couldn't it?

You're interpreting things in a way that's convenient for you. If you were born a Muslim, it's be convenient for you too, like seeing things in clouds.

What is just as interesting is that even you have the need to interpret my experience through your own lens of atheism. What this tells us is that the world finds it extremely hard, perhaps even impossible, to communicate with anyone. We cannot seem to walk a step in another's shoes let alone a mile.

 

[frigidweirdo]

The issue here is that some said there's 6 "proof" or evidence that God exists.

I teach science. Proof is physical evidence. I don't know of any physical evidence of God's existence. You and I seem to agree on that. However, I do know that God exists. You tell me I don't know I can only believe. Shrug. I know, but again I have no physical evidence, merely testimony. There is no reason for you to believe me, and I am just offering insight on why so many believe with no physical evidence and how that belief has nothing to do with imagining or imagination.

,

and how that belief has nothing to do with imagining or imagination.

.
- and from the beginning for the desert religions there has never been an encounter witnessed by more than one person ... the one making the claim. the satisfaction being theirs alone.

Yeah.... it's amazing what people can see when they're on their own. Sometimes we call them schizophrenics.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Ah good, so there's no evidence God exists at all.

You "know" God exists.

To be honest there are plenty of people of forums like this that have extensive "knowledge" of things, and yet the reality is they don't know anything.

You have "testimony", but then that "testimony" could actually be something else, couldn't it?

You're interpreting things in a way that's convenient for you. If you were born a Muslim, it's be convenient for you too, like seeing things in clouds.

What is just as interesting is that even you have the need to interpret my experience through your own lens of atheism. What this tells us is that the world finds it extremely hard, perhaps even impossible, to communicate with anyone. We cannot seem to walk a step in another's shoes let alone a mile.

Because the problem here is that the number of religious people is dwindling as we become more educated. Why?

It suggests that a lot of religious people are religious simply because they were born into this religion and they've simply been unable or unwilling to search for something else.

People born into one religion will generally be of that religion and interpret things of that religion.

In the past we didn't have monotheism, we have many gods. Then this changed. Why?

Probably because religion has always been a glue that sticks societies together. It helps those in power explain away the stuff they don't know. It helps them make up scary stories to keep people in line.

Religion is such a HUMAN THING, that it seems impossible it's come from something else.

 

[ding]

Everything else is contained within the game. It could be real or it may not be

You do realize that the Matrix was based on an ultimate reality, right? That outside of the matrix was a true reality. And since I do believe that God is existence and we share in His existence, His existence is the ultimate reality. But that in no way negates the reality of our current existence as we share in His in a different way.

The thing about the Matrix is they found a way to actually see and experience that other reality. We don't have that in a factual way. We have ideas that have been corrupted through religion that we use to try and explain God and teach the masses how to behave but I see that as man made. Like those in the matrix that have not yet taken the pill, the people suspect there is more to life but don't have the ability to really know what's real and what isn't. Do you think the things happening in the Matrix are absolute reality or subjective perceptions of reality?

I wouldn't waste my time thinking about an alternate reality to be honest. Nothing good can come from stealing time from the present. It's better for me to enjoy the right things, the right way for the right reasons. Life's a journey and I have already won the cosmic lottery.

According to the story being in the Matrix was the alternate reality. Being used for power generation was the reality. Being subjective involves bias. I'm not sure if bias played a part in the Matrix or at least not a big part anyway. So not sure how to answer your question about subjective perceptions of reality. Man's problem isn't that he is living in an alternate reality, man's problem is rationalizing wrong as right.

What it Gods realty is the Real Reality? An eternal reality based in infinity which we humans in this time can not yet understand. And what if our reality is a fragment of the real? A finite linear perception.

I agree, no point in wasting too much time pondering this as the more important is the here and now... I just like dropping food for thought.

I don't waste time thinking about the destination. Giving thanks and praise to God is a different story. That has practical benefits beyond imagine.

My perception of God is that God is infinite logic, infinite truth, infinite intelligence, infinite wisdom, infinite knowledge, infinite love, infinite patience, infinite justice, infinite mercy, infinite kindness and infinite goodness. I am not saying God has those attributes. I am saying God is those attributes. Such that mind has always existed: that this is a life‑breeding universe because the constant presence of mind made it so and imbued his creation with His attributes.

Would that also mean that God is infinite pain, and infinite evil and infinite sadness?

Then it begs the question of whether good and evil actually exist in a significant way.

Ahhh.... now we get into it.

Those are all negations. For example, cold is the absence of heat, darkness is the absence of light, and evil is the absence of good.

But the direction you are heading is into the inscrutable ways of God. Here is what Maimonides said on the subject...

[MEN frequently think that the evils in the world are more numerous than the good things, that just isn't the case. It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils.]​

Passages like that lose me. Where do y'all get that God is absolute goodness from? I mean it sounds nice but sounds like a bias subjective reality and not an objective one.

I see Happiness and unhappiness as the same thing. Each state being felt as a comparison of the other. I don't think one can feel true happiness without also have felt true despair. I understand the religious explanation of God being the positive and all negative being the absence of but that explanation sounds more convenient than anything. If God is existence and infinite then that means he is everything... good and bad. That should be the logical objective way of viewing it, right?

That paraphrase was from a well known Jewish Rabbi who lived about a 800 years ago and was taken from his book, The Guide for the Perplexed. His conclusions are based upon observations and logic.

I would ask you to actually catalog your day if you really believe the bad and good are equal or nearly equal. I've done it. It's not even close. Even on my worst day it's not close. It's man's nature to think there is more bad than good. It's probably even worse today with 24/7 news. But it just isn't so.

Think of it this way, if life is so bad, why are you still living it? Because I submit that life is pretty fucking amazing considering we have all won the cosmic lottery. It's the whole to be or not to be question. Given that the overwhelming majority choose to be instead of not be, I'd say the proof is in the pudding.

The objective way of looking at it is that bad is the absence of good. That good is extant and bad isn't. We know this because life is overwhelmingly good. And when life isn't overwhelmingly good then good ultimately will come from it. Man prefers good over evil. Man doesn't do evil for evil's sake. Man does evil for the sake of his own good. And when man does do evil, rather than abandoning the concept of good and evil, he rationalizes that he didn't do evil. That's how much man values good. And that's how we know good is extant and evil is the absence of good.

I don't think there needs to be more or less of either. It is in our nature to survive and gravitate towards things that fulfill and feel good. So I'd imagine that most healthy humans do experience far more good than bad. I've lived most of my life that way feeling very lucky and happy and grateful. I've also gone through some hard times and know what its like to spend year after year in a very depressed and sad state of mind... When in that state the question you just asked, Why are you still living it? gets asked on a daily basis and it is a struggle. I appreciate the tools that religions have developed and the explanations around God that give us humans answers to the unknown. I think it helps a lot of people and is a great tool to use for a society and civilization like ours. But if I'm being unbiased and looking at the situation with pure objecting to the best of my ability I can't tell myself that the fairytale is true. The best I can do is tell myself that I just don't know and that anything is possible.

I believe most people - especially people from developed countries - take for granted the incredibly rare and amazing gift they have received. I'm not sure how anyone can complain about their lot in life.

Have you ever grieved a loved one or had your heart broken in a way where you felt like you struggled to breath and had a hole torn open inside?

Take that feeling and make it the predominant feeling in your body for an extended amount of time... years. Many people live with that

I have actually. And what should I and them have learned from it? That life is too short and precious to waste it? That we shouldn't take anything for granted? That it is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all? That time heals all wounds? Because if you tell me that we should have learned that life is meaningless, I'd say that struggle to breath and the hole torn open inside says otherwise.

 

[Slade3200]

Everything else is contained within the game. It could be real or it may not be

You do realize that the Matrix was based on an ultimate reality, right? That outside of the matrix was a true reality. And since I do believe that God is existence and we share in His existence, His existence is the ultimate reality. But that in no way negates the reality of our current existence as we share in His in a different way.

The thing about the Matrix is they found a way to actually see and experience that other reality. We don't have that in a factual way. We have ideas that have been corrupted through religion that we use to try and explain God and teach the masses how to behave but I see that as man made. Like those in the matrix that have not yet taken the pill, the people suspect there is more to life but don't have the ability to really know what's real and what isn't. Do you think the things happening in the Matrix are absolute reality or subjective perceptions of reality?

I wouldn't waste my time thinking about an alternate reality to be honest. Nothing good can come from stealing time from the present. It's better for me to enjoy the right things, the right way for the right reasons. Life's a journey and I have already won the cosmic lottery.

According to the story being in the Matrix was the alternate reality. Being used for power generation was the reality. Being subjective involves bias. I'm not sure if bias played a part in the Matrix or at least not a big part anyway. So not sure how to answer your question about subjective perceptions of reality. Man's problem isn't that he is living in an alternate reality, man's problem is rationalizing wrong as right.

What it Gods realty is the Real Reality? An eternal reality based in infinity which we humans in this time can not yet understand. And what if our reality is a fragment of the real? A finite linear perception.

I agree, no point in wasting too much time pondering this as the more important is the here and now... I just like dropping food for thought.

I don't waste time thinking about the destination. Giving thanks and praise to God is a different story. That has practical benefits beyond imagine.

My perception of God is that God is infinite logic, infinite truth, infinite intelligence, infinite wisdom, infinite knowledge, infinite love, infinite patience, infinite justice, infinite mercy, infinite kindness and infinite goodness. I am not saying God has those attributes. I am saying God is those attributes. Such that mind has always existed: that this is a life‑breeding universe because the constant presence of mind made it so and imbued his creation with His attributes.

Would that also mean that God is infinite pain, and infinite evil and infinite sadness?

Then it begs the question of whether good and evil actually exist in a significant way.

Ahhh.... now we get into it.

Those are all negations. For example, cold is the absence of heat, darkness is the absence of light, and evil is the absence of good.

But the direction you are heading is into the inscrutable ways of God. Here is what Maimonides said on the subject...

[MEN frequently think that the evils in the world are more numerous than the good things, that just isn't the case. It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils.]​

Passages like that lose me. Where do y'all get that God is absolute goodness from? I mean it sounds nice but sounds like a bias subjective reality and not an objective one.

I see Happiness and unhappiness as the same thing. Each state being felt as a comparison of the other. I don't think one can feel true happiness without also have felt true despair. I understand the religious explanation of God being the positive and all negative being the absence of but that explanation sounds more convenient than anything. If God is existence and infinite then that means he is everything... good and bad. That should be the logical objective way of viewing it, right?

That paraphrase was from a well known Jewish Rabbi who lived about a 800 years ago and was taken from his book, The Guide for the Perplexed. His conclusions are based upon observations and logic.

I would ask you to actually catalog your day if you really believe the bad and good are equal or nearly equal. I've done it. It's not even close. Even on my worst day it's not close. It's man's nature to think there is more bad than good. It's probably even worse today with 24/7 news. But it just isn't so.

Think of it this way, if life is so bad, why are you still living it? Because I submit that life is pretty fucking amazing considering we have all won the cosmic lottery. It's the whole to be or not to be question. Given that the overwhelming majority choose to be instead of not be, I'd say the proof is in the pudding.

The objective way of looking at it is that bad is the absence of good. That good is extant and bad isn't. We know this because life is overwhelmingly good. And when life isn't overwhelmingly good then good ultimately will come from it. Man prefers good over evil. Man doesn't do evil for evil's sake. Man does evil for the sake of his own good. And when man does do evil, rather than abandoning the concept of good and evil, he rationalizes that he didn't do evil. That's how much man values good. And that's how we know good is extant and evil is the absence of good.

I don't think there needs to be more or less of either. It is in our nature to survive and gravitate towards things that fulfill and feel good. So I'd imagine that most healthy humans do experience far more good than bad. I've lived most of my life that way feeling very lucky and happy and grateful. I've also gone through some hard times and know what its like to spend year after year in a very depressed and sad state of mind... When in that state the question you just asked, Why are you still living it? gets asked on a daily basis and it is a struggle. I appreciate the tools that religions have developed and the explanations around God that give us humans answers to the unknown. I think it helps a lot of people and is a great tool to use for a society and civilization like ours. But if I'm being unbiased and looking at the situation with pure objecting to the best of my ability I can't tell myself that the fairytale is true. The best I can do is tell myself that I just don't know and that anything is possible.

I believe most people - especially people from developed countries - take for granted the incredibly rare and amazing gift they have received. I'm not sure how anyone can complain about their lot in life.

Have you ever grieved a loved one or had your heart broken in a way where you felt like you struggled to breath and had a hole torn open inside?

Take that feeling and make it the predominant feeling in your body for an extended amount of time... years. Many people live with that

I have actually. And what should I and them have learned from it? That life is too short and precious to waste it? That we shouldn't take anything for granted? That it is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all? That time heals all wounds? Because if you tell me that we should have learned that life is meaningless, I'd say that struggle to breath and the hole torn open inside says otherwise.

Yes those are absolutely the lessons that should be learned from those situations. Some learn them quickly and some slowly and some Not at all... others have that feeling you felt all the time for what seems like no reason at all. Some battle with it their entire lives

 

[Meriweather]

Because the problem here is that the number of religious people is dwindling as we become more educated.

If religion is dwindling, it is not because schools teach math, science, language, etc. It is because it has dropped teaching religion. People are becoming less educated about that.