A bit more of your merciful god.

[Meriweather]

Why should I believe that?

Do you see any value in it? If not, follow what you do value. If you can at least see the value in it, then you start with that grain of faith, a bit of faith smaller than a mustard seed, nurture it so it grows.

When I was learning to live the Beatitudes I started with, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for the reign of God is theirs." I wasn't so sure about the poor in spirit part, but to be under, to be a part of, the reign of God appealed to me. I started with learning what "poor in spirit" actually was. It was the first step which led to others.

 

[Blues Man]

You are describing different beliefs about God, not two different Gods.

I don't see it that way.

One god actually walked the earth as Jesus and one didn't.

So whether there are different gods being referred to or one god one ( or both) of those beliefs is (are) wrong.

Christians believe you cannot deny Jesus was actually god incarnate and achieve salvation

Jews believe that salvation can be had without Jesus and disavow the new testament as the word of the god they worship.

 

[Blues Man]

Do you see any value in it? If not, follow what you do value. If you can at least see the value in it, then you start with that grain of faith, a bit of faith smaller than a mustard seed, nurture it so it grows.

When I was learning to live the Beatitudes I started with, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for the reign of God is theirs." I wasn't so sure about the poor in spirit part, but to be under, to be a part of, the reign of God appealed to me. I started with learning what "poor in spirit" actually was. It was the first step which led to others.

Value or truth

I think its hubris to believe that man can be omniscient and omnipotent.

 

[Meriweather]

Christians believe you cannot deny Jesus was actually god incarnate and achieve salvation

Achieve salvation? Salvation (redemption) is a gift, a grace given. It is not "achieved". Our redemption and salvation is not so much believing in a personhood/divinity, but in the Word. In this case, we live our lives with the certainty that sins are forgiven (repentance/turning away from sin) results in the forgiveness of sin. No animal or grain sacrifice needed because Jesus sacrificed his life so that we might know and be certain of the forgiveness of our sins. That sacrifice of life was colossal. In my opinion.

Do you believe in the forgiveness of sins?

 

[Meriweather]

I think its hubris to believe that man can be omniscient and omnipotent.

Not what I said, not anything that has ever crossed my mind.

 

[Blues Man]

Not what I said, not anything that has ever crossed my mind.

If humans cannot be omniscient and omnipotent there can be no equity in any relationship with any being that is omniscient and omnipotent.

 

[Blues Man]

Achieve salvation? Salvation (redemption) is a gift, a grace given. It is not "achieved". Our redemption and salvation is not so much believing in a personhood/divinity, but in the Word. In this case, we live our lives with the certainty that sins are forgiven (repentance/turning away from sin) results in the forgiveness of sin. No animal or grain sacrifice needed because Jesus sacrificed his life so that we might know and be certain of the forgiveness of our sins. That sacrifice of life was colossal. In my opinion.

Do you believe in the forgiveness of sins?

Quibble about word choices if you want.

Change achieve to receive if it makes you feel better.

And none of that addresses the differences in the gods that Jews and Christians worship.

Sin is an interesting topic . I guess it depends on how you define it.

Sin as a violation of religious or moral law is defined by the deity worshipped in that religion therefore different religions can have different sins.

 

[Meriweather]

If humans cannot be omniscient and omnipotent there can be no equity in any relationship with any being that is omniscient and omnipotent.

Long ago, a line from a song grabbed my attention: You, who are on the road, can't know the fears your elders grew by.

That does not mean I can't have compassion and even empathy for other generations. I do not need to equal God to have a relationship with Him, any more than I need to equal my chinchillas to build some type of relationship with them.

There are always ways to work around obstacles--especially obstacles that are only perceived.

 

[Meriweather]

Quibble about word choices if you want.

Heavy sigh. No quibbling. Pointing out the power of words. Can you understand that?

 

[Blues Man]

Long ago, a line from a song grabbed my attention: You, who are on the road, can't know the fears your elders grew by.

That does not mean I can't have compassion and even empathy for other generations. I do not need to equal God to have a relationship with Him, any more than I need to equal my chinchillas to build some type of relationship with them.

There are always ways to work around obstacles--especially obstacles that are only perceived.

So you don't care if your relationship with a god is not different than a huma relationship with a chinchilla where you are the chinchilla?

I love my dogs more than I do most people but I don't kid myself into believing it is in any way a relationship where we are on equal footing on any level whatsoever.

 

[Blues Man]

Heavy sigh. No quibbling. Pointing out the power of words. Can you understand that?

Like I said replace the word with another the concept is still the same.

For one to receive the gift of salvation one must do certain things.

And there are many many many instances where the word achieve is used by Christians when it comes to salvation

 

[Meriweather]

Like I said replace the word with another the concept is still the same.

I study etymology, cook, garden, teach. In fact, switching something to something else that is similar doesn't give the same result.

So no, the concept is not the same. Sometimes it is not even that similar. And it might be why we have trouble understanding each other.

 

[Meriweather]

For one to receive the gift of salvation one must do certain things.

When someone hands someone a gift, the only things one must do is accept it or reject it; use it or not use it. It is no different for salvation or redemption.

 

[Meriweather]

So you don't care if your relationship with a god is not different than a huma relationship with a chinchilla where you are the chinchilla?

I don't. There is a lot I cannot do because I am not a chinchilla. There is a lot they cannot do because they are not human. But there are areas where we can relate.

The same is true with my friends. There are some things they cannot do because they do not have my skill set or interests. There are some things I cannot do because I do not have theirs. However, there are still areas where we can relate to each other.

Perhaps you see the idea of a greater Being as some kind of competition where you will lose? I see however two beings relate, no matter how small, both derive enjoyment from that relationship.

 

[Meriweather]

I love my dogs more than I do most people but I don't kid myself into believing it is in any way a relationship where we are on equal footing on any level whatsoever.

And being equal is important to you?

 

[The Irish Ram]

Like I said the Jews do not believe the god they worship ever walked the earth as Jesus.

Christians believe that the god the worship actually walked the earth as Jesus

They are not the same god

I have a blue stone. If the Jews say it is red, is it no longer blue? The Jews believe in the same God that I do, but not in His Son. Their disbelief does not make His Son less real. It makes them spiritually blind. And the time is coming when they will accept Him, and run to Him when He returns. There is no reason for me not to believe in Him in the meantime.

For I, brethren, would not have you be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[JustAGuy1]

I don't see it that way.

One god actually walked the earth as Jesus and one didn't.

So whether there are different gods being referred to or one god one ( or both) of those beliefs is (are) wrong.

Christians believe you cannot deny Jesus was actually god incarnate and achieve salvation

Jews believe that salvation can be had without Jesus and disavow the new testament as the word of the god they worship.

Solo Scriptura

Philippians 2:1-6

2 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

 

[The Irish Ram]

Why should I believe that?

Because your eternal soul depends on it...

 

[buttercup]

So tell me does any work of fiction that incorporates an actual natural event become true simply because of that?

And why is it so strange tart flood stories exist in all cultures when we know that around 5000 BC there the ice age was at its end and glciers all over the world were melting.

It had nothing to do with any god.

You're starting off with a wrong assumption. And how you stated that assumption right off the bat is telling, it shows that your mind is closed.

I hope we can agree that when it comes to the pursuit of truth (ANY truth, not just what we're talking about here) you can't start off with a specific position and then try to conform everything to that pre-existing belief. Matter of fact, that's the problem with modern science. It starts with the assumption of materialism, and immediately rules out anything to the contrary, rather than starting with a clean slate and a genuinely impartial mindset. Truth should always be first, even if it leads you to a place you didn't anticipate.

There's more to be said here, and I want to get back to what you said about the ice age, but I'll get back to it another time, when I have more time. (I know your reply was from a few days ago, but I didn't even read my notifications of this thread until today.)

 

[The Irish Ram]

If humans cannot be omniscient and omnipotent there can be no equity in any relationship with any being that is omniscient and omnipotent.

Satan wants equality with God:
You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.” - Isaiah 14:13-14

Is it necessary for you to be equal to other humans to have a relationship with them too? If someone is poorer than you, can you still have a relationship? Can a blind person be friends with you? Could you have a relationship with LeBron James? Are you as talented?

My Daddy was a sharp shooter in the service. Shooting skeet became our hobby. I am a really good shot, but not quite as good as my Dad. My brother could out shoot my Dad. We both had loving relationships with our Dad despite our inequality.

My Dad was a master gardener. Our gardens are as nice as my Dad's because He walked with us in his garden in the cool of the evening and taught us his ways.

You may never be your Father's equal, but man o man, you'll find being His son, magnificent...