A Conservative's view on waterboarding

[sinister59]

"WHEN US Representative Steve King learned that Osama bin Laden had been killed by US troops in Pakistan, he couldn’t resist a little crowing about the efficacy of torture. “Wonder what President Obama thinks of water boarding now?’’ the Iowa Republican tweeted on May 2.

It was an outrageous remark, but King wasn’t going out on a limb. A parade of others, mostly Republicans, have joined him in claiming that the death of bin Laden had vindicated the use of waterboarding — the most notorious of the “enhanced interrogation techniques’’ the Bush administration employed to extract information from senior Al Qaeda detainees....

...I don’t know whether waterboarding was indispensable to rolling up bin Laden; for every interrogation expert who says it was, another expert argues the opposite. But the case against waterboarding never rested primarily on its usefulness. It rested on its wrongfulness. It is wrong when bad guys do it to good guys. It is just as wrong when good guys do it to Al Qaeda....

The killing of bin Laden was gratifying, but it was no vindication of torture. Republicans rightly argue that much credit is owed to George W. Bush, who launched an effective war on terror and pursued it with fierce resolve. But Bush was wrong to permit waterboarding, and wrong to deny that it was torture. I don’t agree with Obama on much, but when it comes to waterboarding, he is right. America will defeat the global jihad, but not by embracing its most inhuman values."

Ends don’t justify the means - The Boston Globe

Jeff Jacoby (columnist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know water-boarding is considered torture but its non lethal and no physical harm ,

nothing up your fingernail , no digits cut off . I water board myself with a ceramic pot of salt water for colds ,

they could could make the prisoners listen to a palin peach but that would be just funny to a terrorist .

 

[M14 Shooter]

I've always wondered why people who think waterboarding is great don't want it done in prisons or in trials.

If waterboarding has a magical way of getting even scumbag terrorists to become genuine, honest people instantly, why not do it to scumbag rapists, murderers etc?

Who said it was great? its a tool being used against animals who have utterly no hesitation in slaughtering innocent people for no other reason than they don't worship the same religion.

I'm having an extremely hard time coming up with any compassion for the tools of Islam had I my choice they would suffer very long and horrible deaths. We expect our Government to use everything within its power to fulfill the one role where it might do some good that being protect our nation and people how they do it is up to them.

"Suspected" "animals." Not every suspect is guilty. Many of the people we initially "rounded up" in Afghanistan were sold out by their neighbors, often people with grudges, some who just needed some money, for the "bounty" we offered per head. Done here, you could finger your paper-boy and collect, and then he would face torture so you could pay your national grid bill that month. It happened, and it really was that simple.

Your statement here necessitates that the people subjected to waterboarding were not first vetted to see if they were/were not someone likely to have useful/important information.
Can you show this to be the case?

 

[Wry Catcher]

Its doesn't really matter as far as I am concerned our government did what it felt was necessary to protect our Nation from the Islamic animals that have no problems killing as many as they can. For that I applaud them for having the backbone to take the steps to hunt down and kill the Islamic Tools

should we round up all the muslims in the us?

Only if they are captured in a war zone or involved in terrorist activities. Anyone taking part in, or assisting, our enemies deserves to die. Simple.

The problem with CG's 'reasoning' and conclusion is prespective and definition.
Consider CG's remark if made by a Muslim (in respect to our troops) in his/her homeland.

 

[The Rabbi]

Who said it was great? its a tool being used against animals who have utterly no hesitation in slaughtering innocent people for no other reason than they don't worship the same religion.

I'm having an extremely hard time coming up with any compassion for the tools of Islam had I my choice they would suffer very long and horrible deaths. We expect our Government to use everything within its power to fulfill the one role where it might do some good that being protect our nation and people how they do it is up to them.

"Suspected" "animals." Not every suspect is guilty. Many of the people we initially "rounded up" in Afghanistan were sold out by their neighbors, often people with grudges, some who just needed some money, for the "bounty" we offered per head. Done here, you could finger your paper-boy and collect, and then he would face torture so you could pay your national grid bill that month. It happened, and it really was that simple.

Your statement here necessitates that the people subjected to waterboarding were not first vetted to see if they were/were not someone likely to have useful/important information.
Can you show this to be the case?

Just connect the dots!

actually this is the lib view of the military as uneducated thugs. They have this view because libs don't serve in the military, generally speaking, and are estranged from its core values.
Add in a basic belief that America is wrong unless proven right and it's a cinch.

 

[M14 Shooter]

no, just a belief that if something is wrong, it's wrong.
you obviously feel differently and believe that ethics are elastic.

I'll take your lack of counter-argument as your acceptance of my point.
Thank you.

you're free to delude yourself in whatever way brings you comfort.

And still, no counter to what I said.
If you think I am wrong, skip the attempts at distraction, misdirection and obfuscation, and show me how.

 

[The Rabbi]

should we round up all the muslims in the us?

Only if they are captured in a war zone or involved in terrorist activities. Anyone taking part in, or assisting, our enemies deserves to die. Simple.

The problem with CG's 'reasoning' and conclusion is prespective and definition.
Consider CG's remark if made by a Muslim in respect to our troops in his/her homeland.

Actually Muslims do say exactly that. The difference is Muslims include in "terrorist activities" people involved in building schools, water treatment facilities, or anything else. Their mere presence marks them as "enemies" not merely to be killed but done so in the most gruesome manner possible, as a warning.
See the difference? No, of course not.

 

[The Rabbi]

I'll take your lack of counter-argument as your acceptance of my point.
Thank you.

you're free to delude yourself in whatever way brings you comfort.

And still, no counter to what I said.
If you think I am wrong, skip the attempts at distraction, misdirection and obfuscation, and show me how.

She can't.
I've already nailed the issue as an inability to engage in debate due to lack of knowledge, skills and training.

 

[Barb]

Sources, some few of many:

Uighurs Sold to U.S. Military for Bounty? - ProPublica

Canadian extradition ruling renews debate on terror suspects' rights

Bounty hunters 'selling terror war suspects to America' - Telegraph

BBC NEWS | South Asia | US admits 'bounty hunter' contact

Bounties paid for terror suspects - Amnesty International Australia

and:

The Guantánamo Bay Files by Wikileaks: Conscripts from Pakistan - States Times

According to the website, in thousands of pages of documents dating from 2002 to 2008 and never seen before by members of the public or the media, the cases of the majority of the prisoners held at Guantánamo — 758 out of 779 in total — are described in detail in memoranda from JTF-GTMO, the Joint Task Force at Guantánamo Bay, to US Southern Command in Miami, Florida.

These memoranda include information on the first 201 prisoners released from the prison, between 2002 and 2004, which, unlike information on the rest of the prisoners (summaries of evidence and tribunal transcripts, released as the result of a lawsuit filed by media groups in 2006), has never been made public before. Most of these documents reveal accounts of incompetence familiar to those who have studied Guantánamo closely, with innocent men detained by mistake (or because the US was offering substantial bounties to its allies for al-Qaeda or Taliban suspects), and numerous insignificant Taliban conscripts from Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The following paragraphs outline just some of the most obvious cases, but alert readers will notice that they are cited repeatedly in what purports to be the government’s evidence, and it should, as a result, be hard not to conclude that the entire edifice constructed by the government is fundamentally unsound, and that what the Guantánamo Files reveal, primarily, is that only a few dozen prisoners are genuinely accused of involvement in terrorism. The rest, these documents reveal on close inspection, were either innocent men and boys, seized by mistake, or Taliban foot soldiers, unconnected to terrorism. Moreover, many of these prisoners were really sold to US forces, who were offering bounty payments for al-Qaeda and Taliban suspects, by their Afghan and Pakistani allies — a policy that led ex-President Musharraf to state, in his 2006 memoir, ‘In the Line of Fire’, that, in return for handing over 369 terror suspects to the US, the Pakistani government “earned bounty payments totalling millions of dollars.”

 

[Robert]

I've always wondered why people who think waterboarding is great don't want it done in prisons or in trials.

If waterboarding has a magical way of getting even scumbag terrorists to become genuine, honest people instantly, why not do it to scumbag rapists, murderers etc?

Who said it was great? its a tool being used against animals who have utterly no hesitation in slaughtering innocent people for no other reason than they don't worship the same religion.

I'm having an extremely hard time coming up with any compassion for the tools of Islam had I my choice they would suffer very long and horrible deaths. We expect our Government to use everything within its power to fulfill the one role where it might do some good that being protect our nation and people how they do it is up to them.

"Suspected" "animals." Not every suspect is guilty. Many of the people we initially "rounded up" in Afghanistan were sold out by their neighbors, often people with grudges, some who just needed some money, for the "bounty" we offered per head. Done here, you could finger your paper-boy and collect, and then he would face torture so you could pay your national grid bill that month. It happened, and it really was that simple.

Ya Torture is sooooo Automatic ......WTF really? Let me guess the "prisoner's" are executed afterwards as well because as we all know he was a paper boy....

 

[uscitizen]

You refusing to believe that you'vre presented an apples/oranges non-sequitur doesn't change the fact that you are doing just that.

Supporting the use of waterboarding for national-security related iltelligence/operational purposes in no way necessiates support for its use in criminal procedure.
Apples/oranges.
:shrug:

Red herring.
Did you have something to counter what I said?

no, just a belief that if something is wrong, it's wrong.
you obviously feel differently and believe that ethics are elastic.

I'll take your lack of counter-argument as your acceptance of my point.
Thank you.

Yep the end justifies the means mentality.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Sources, some few of many:

Uighurs Sold to U.S. Military for Bounty? - ProPublica

Canadian extradition ruling renews debate on terror suspects' rights

Bounty hunters 'selling terror war suspects to America' - Telegraph

BBC NEWS | South Asia | US admits 'bounty hunter' contact

Bounties paid for terror suspects - Amnesty International Australia

and:

The Guantánamo Bay Files by Wikileaks: Conscripts from Pakistan - States Times

So...
Where does any of this show that the people subjected to waterboarding were not first vetted to see if they were/were not someone likely to have useful/important information?

 

[Wry Catcher]

"Suspected" "animals." Not every suspect is guilty. Many of the people we initially "rounded up" in Afghanistan were sold out by their neighbors, often people with grudges, some who just needed some money, for the "bounty" we offered per head. Done here, you could finger your paper-boy and collect, and then he would face torture so you could pay your national grid bill that month. It happened, and it really was that simple.

Your statement here necessitates that the people subjected to waterboarding were not first vetted to see if they were/were not someone likely to have useful/important information.
Can you show this to be the case?

Just connect the dots!

actually this is the lib view of the military as uneducated thugs. They have this view because libs don't serve in the military, generally speaking, and are estranged from its core values.
Add in a basic belief that America is wrong unless proven right and it's a cinch.

Why must you always lie, Rabbi? While I'm not far left I consider myself a liberal/progressive (at least in the sense I'm not a bigot which seems to be the main characteristic of the 'conservatives'*** on the message board). That said, I enlisted during the Vietnam Conflict, served in WestPac on ASW patrol for two years. You? In which branch did you enlist?

That said too, how many of you supporters of waterboarding ever been trained in Interview and Interrogation Techniques? How many of you were lead investigators in a LEO and conducted I&I's? None, I suspect and yet you all seem to believe (or want to believe) your experts. Good cop, bad cop has some benefits, but buying the subject a coke or coffee and establishing a human connection works best.

 

[Barb]

Sources, some few of many:

Uighurs Sold to U.S. Military for Bounty? - ProPublica

Canadian extradition ruling renews debate on terror suspects' rights

Bounty hunters 'selling terror war suspects to America' - Telegraph

BBC NEWS | South Asia | US admits 'bounty hunter' contact

Bounties paid for terror suspects - Amnesty International Australia

and:

The Guantánamo Bay Files by Wikileaks: Conscripts from Pakistan - States Times

So...
Where does any of this show that the people subjected to waterboarding were not first vetted to see if they were/were not someone likely to have useful/important information?

Read the links. You couldn't have in the time you took to respond. The fact that SO many had to be released alone, AFTER being tortured, should have told you something (and answered an asshatted question) a LONG time ago.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Who said it was great? its a tool being used against animals who have utterly no hesitation in slaughtering innocent people for no other reason than they don't worship the same religion.

I'm having an extremely hard time coming up with any compassion for the tools of Islam had I my choice they would suffer very long and horrible deaths. We expect our Government to use everything within its power to fulfill the one role where it might do some good that being protect our nation and people how they do it is up to them.

"Suspected" "animals." Not every suspect is guilty. Many of the people we initially "rounded up" in Afghanistan were sold out by their neighbors, often people with grudges, some who just needed some money, for the "bounty" we offered per head. Done here, you could finger your paper-boy and collect, and then he would face torture so you could pay your national grid bill that month. It happened, and it really was that simple.

Your statement here necessitates that the people subjected to waterboarding were not first vetted to see if they were/were not someone likely to have useful/important information.
Can you show this to be the case?

Idiots like Barb think that everyone that's been captured is waterboarded. Fact is only three people have been water boarded they are KSM, Zubaydah and Nashiri.

 

[del]

I'll take your lack of counter-argument as your acceptance of my point.
Thank you.

you're free to delude yourself in whatever way brings you comfort.

And still, no counter to what I said.
If you think I am wrong, skip the attempts at distraction, misdirection and obfuscation, and show me how.

i can't show you what you're unwilling to see, nor can i express what i believe more clearly.

if something is wrong, it's wrong, imo.

you believe differently. you believe if there is some benefit to be derived for a perceived greater good by doing something morally repugnant, then it's all right.

mazel tov

 

[DiamondDave]

you're free to delude yourself in whatever way brings you comfort.

And still, no counter to what I said.
If you think I am wrong, skip the attempts at distraction, misdirection and obfuscation, and show me how.

i can't show you what you're unwilling to see, nor can i express what i believe more clearly.

if something is wrong, it's wrong, imo.

you believe differently. you believe if there is some benefit to be derived for a perceived greater good by doing something morally repugnant, then it's all right.

mazel tov

Del....

Would you say that many MANY people think that the death penalty is wrong for shoplifters but not for murderers??

 

[M14 Shooter]

you're free to delude yourself in whatever way brings you comfort.

And still, no counter to what I said.
If you think I am wrong, skip the attempts at distraction, misdirection and obfuscation, and show me how.

i can't show you what you're unwilling to see, nor can i express what i believe more clearly.
if something is wrong, it's wrong, imo.

Ah. A critical failure on your part, that you don't understand the point that was made.

Hint:
-It doesnt have anything to do with judging right v wrong.
-It has everyting to do with the logical fallacies in the arguments presented.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Sources, some few of many:

Uighurs Sold to U.S. Military for Bounty? - ProPublica

Canadian extradition ruling renews debate on terror suspects' rights

Bounty hunters 'selling terror war suspects to America' - Telegraph

BBC NEWS | South Asia | US admits 'bounty hunter' contact

Bounties paid for terror suspects - Amnesty International Australia

and:

The Guantánamo Bay Files by Wikileaks: Conscripts from Pakistan - States Times

According to the website, in thousands of pages of documents dating from 2002 to 2008 and never seen before by members of the public or the media, the cases of the majority of the prisoners held at Guantánamo — 758 out of 779 in total — are described in detail in memoranda from JTF-GTMO, the Joint Task Force at Guantánamo Bay, to US Southern Command in Miami, Florida.

These memoranda include information on the first 201 prisoners released from the prison, between 2002 and 2004, which, unlike information on the rest of the prisoners (summaries of evidence and tribunal transcripts, released as the result of a lawsuit filed by media groups in 2006), has never been made public before. Most of these documents reveal accounts of incompetence familiar to those who have studied Guantánamo closely, with innocent men detained by mistake (or because the US was offering substantial bounties to its allies for al-Qaeda or Taliban suspects), and numerous insignificant Taliban conscripts from Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The following paragraphs outline just some of the most obvious cases, but alert readers will notice that they are cited repeatedly in what purports to be the government’s evidence, and it should, as a result, be hard not to conclude that the entire edifice constructed by the government is fundamentally unsound, and that what the Guantánamo Files reveal, primarily, is that only a few dozen prisoners are genuinely accused of involvement in terrorism. The rest, these documents reveal on close inspection, were either innocent men and boys, seized by mistake, or Taliban foot soldiers, unconnected to terrorism. Moreover, many of these prisoners were really sold to US forces, who were offering bounty payments for al-Qaeda and Taliban suspects, by their Afghan and Pakistani allies — a policy that led ex-President Musharraf to state, in his 2006 memoir, ‘In the Line of Fire’, that, in return for handing over 369 terror suspects to the US, the Pakistani government “earned bounty payments totalling millions of dollars.”

Well if you choose to believe the liberal press then go for it.

 

[del]

And still, no counter to what I said.
If you think I am wrong, skip the attempts at distraction, misdirection and obfuscation, and show me how.

i can't show you what you're unwilling to see, nor can i express what i believe more clearly.

if something is wrong, it's wrong, imo.

you believe differently. you believe if there is some benefit to be derived for a perceived greater good by doing something morally repugnant, then it's all right.

mazel tov

Del....

Would you say that many MANY people think that the death penalty is wrong for shoplifters but not for murderers??

i know of no one who supports the death penalty for shoplifting

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Your statement here necessitates that the people subjected to waterboarding were not first vetted to see if they were/were not someone likely to have useful/important information.
Can you show this to be the case?

Just connect the dots!

actually this is the lib view of the military as uneducated thugs. They have this view because libs don't serve in the military, generally speaking, and are estranged from its core values.
Add in a basic belief that America is wrong unless proven right and it's a cinch.

Why must you always lie, Rabbi? While I'm not far left I consider myself a liberal/progressive (at least in the sense I'm not a bigot which seems to be the main characteristic of the 'conservatives'*** on the message board). That said, I enlisted during the Vietnam Conflict, served in WestPac on ASW patrol for two years. You? In which branch did you enlist?

That said too, how many of you supporters of waterboarding ever been trained in Interview and Interrogation Techniques? How many of you were lead investigators in a LEO and conducted I&I's? None, I suspect and yet you all seem to believe (or want to believe) your experts. Good cop, bad cop has some benefits, but buying the subject a coke or coffee and establishing a human connection works best.

Yea they always get a confession after offering them a coke.

You are one stupid fuck!