A few questions so I will know who I'm dealing with...

[Coyote]

I think there are correct answers.

But they're not correct because I say they are correct.

They're just correct.

I would disagree, and going back to your original questions, I'll explain why...

1. Do you believe that there should be a Jewish State of Israel?

The answer depends on what is defined by a "Jewish state" - does that mean a theocracy? Does that mean a state where all inhabitants have equal rights of citizenship, land ownership, representation in government and freedom from persecution? Does it mean a state where religious law is intertwined with secular law?

In the end - I would agree that the only correct answer is yes, but that is because people of any state have the right to determine for themselves what that state shall be and if the people of Israel want their state to be defined as a Jewish state is their right.


2. The Old City of Jerusalem should be under (a) Israeli control; (b) Jordanian control; (c) Palestinian control; or (d) International control?

For this one there truly is no "correct" answer - three major world religions claim Jeruselem and require access. It was once divided. What right does one group have over another? It's inhabitants are diverse - or at least were - some of that diversity is being removed. Perhaps the closest correct answer is international control because it truly is an international city. But I would not call it "the correct answer".

3. Do you believe that a viable "2 state solution" can include a "Palestinian right of return" to Israel?

While I personally say no, for pragmatic and demographic reasons - there are many who passionately feel that the right of return is every bit as critical as the Jewish right of return to Israel. How can anyone accept that sentiment for one but not the other? Again, no "correct answer".

4. Rocket fire from Gaza into Israel constitutes (a) terrorist activity, or (b) legitimate resistence.

This one has no answer because legitimate resistence involves terrorist activity in almost every instance. I can not think of any cases where it did not and that includes the actions of Irgun, the Stern Gang and other groups in the founding of Israel. What makes it "legitimate" is how closely we identify with one side or the other, how convincing the propaganda is and ultimately - whomever wins the conflict gets to write history.

There is no "correct" answer.


5. Do you believe that the majority of those who consider themselves "Palestinians" support a "two-state solution" resulting in a peaceful coexistence with a Jewish State of Israel?

You are asking what people believe - how can there be a "correct" answer to belief?

 

[Intense]

Its time for my self-evaluation.

As a new member of this forum, I started this thread to determine the general range of mindsets among the various posters here. I hoped that my questions would reveal these mindsets, not only by virtue of the specific responses, but also in terms of who would get their feathers ruffled by my questions and subsequent comments. My hope was to gain an understanding of which posters are pro-Israel, which are anti-Israel, and which are somewhere in the middle.

Based on the results, I give myself and A+ for this thread.

Thanks for the responses!

You can take that a step further and also conclude that the anti Israel posters are usually the worst Jew haters. Therefore proving that anti Zionism is the new anti semitism.

There are Jews that are Anti-Zionist Roudy.
It's not that simple.

Does Israel have a Right to exist?
If it puts God first, establishes and serves Justice, by all means.

Does Palestine have a Right to Exist? If it puts God first, establishes and serves Justice. Yes. Can it do that while denying Israel's right to exist and live in peace? Not at all.

What is the foundation community is built on? What is your reaction to being treated fairly and honestly, as opposed to being cheated or scammed, or exploited? Value for value. What kind of seeds you plant, they are going to mature.

As Believers, is the foundation, God first in all things, regardless of the brand? What does that promote? It is not about getting the World to choose sides. It is about atonement across the board. Just a thought.

 

[Intense]

Separation of Church and State is a Christian Concept. Locke coined it. We made it part of our foundation here in the USA. Can you compile a list of all Countries that subscribe to that philosophy?

 

[Kondor3]

"...formed by the indigenous people..."

In the case of so-called 'Palestine', we're looking at Arabs who are the descendants of the last wave of immigrants (carrying swords) who steamrollered over the previous population... what goes around comes around... and now it's the Arabs' turn in the barrel...

 

[Coyote]

"...formed by the indigenous people..."

In the case of so-called 'Palestine', we're looking at Arabs who are the descendants of the last wave of immigrants (carrying swords) who steamrollered over the previous population... what goes around comes around... and now it's the Arabs' turn in the barrel...

Not really. The Palestinians are descendents of the people preceding the Arabs as well as Arabs, as are the Jews who remained in that area. They're all the same.

 

[RoccoR]

et al,

I was as well.

I was actually hoping for a good discussion...

(COMMENT)

There were a number of key issues made.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Coyote]

et al,

I was as well.

I was actually hoping for a good discussion...

(COMMENT)

There were a number of key issues made.

Most Respectfully,
R

Actually - I shouldn't whine...there is some good discussion....this is a good thread

 

[Hossfly]

Its time for my self-evaluation.

As a new member of this forum, I started this thread to determine the general range of mindsets among the various posters here. I hoped that my questions would reveal these mindsets, not only by virtue of the specific responses, but also in terms of who would get their feathers ruffled by my questions and subsequent comments. My hope was to gain an understanding of which posters are pro-Israel, which are anti-Israel, and which are somewhere in the middle.

Based on the results, I give myself and A+ for this thread.

Thanks for the responses!

You can take that a step further and also conclude that the anti Israel posters are usually the worst Jew haters. Therefore proving that anti Zionism is the new anti semitism.

So true, Roudy, so true. Let's listen to what an Egyptian Christian and a Pakistani Muslim have to say............

Pakistani Muslim, Egyptian Christian say anti-Zionism IS anti-Semitism - Israel Today | Israel News

 

[Roudy]

Its time for my self-evaluation.

As a new member of this forum, I started this thread to determine the general range of mindsets among the various posters here. I hoped that my questions would reveal these mindsets, not only by virtue of the specific responses, but also in terms of who would get their feathers ruffled by my questions and subsequent comments. My hope was to gain an understanding of which posters are pro-Israel, which are anti-Israel, and which are somewhere in the middle.

Based on the results, I give myself and A+ for this thread.

Thanks for the responses!

You can take that a step further and also conclude that the anti Israel posters are usually the worst Jew haters. Therefore proving that anti Zionism is the new anti semitism.

There are Jews that are Anti-Zionist Roudy.
It's not that simple.

Does Israel have a Right to exist?
If it puts God first, establishes and serves Justice, by all means.

Does Palestine have a Right to Exist? If it puts God first, establishes and serves Justice. Yes. Can it do that while denying Israel's right to exist and live in peace? Not at all.

What is the foundation community is built on? What is your reaction to being treated fairly and honestly, as opposed to being cheated or scammed, or exploited? Value for value. What kind of seeds you plant, they are going to mature.

As Believers, is the foundation, God first in all things, regardless of the brand? What does that promote? It is not about getting the World to choose sides. It is about atonement across the board. Just a thought.

You are confusing anti Zionism with being critical of Israel. Do you understand what is the definition of anti Zionism? Zionism is simply the right for the Jewish people to exist in the land that is central to their faith and which their ancestors lived in. So one cannot be an "anti Zionist" and then say I believe that Israel has the right to exist. There are many Americans that are critical of the USA and its policies, including myself, does that make me anti American? However, not surprisingly you will find that most anti zionists happen to also be anti American.

Israel is a democracy by all standards, and has proven that it is for justice and peace and willing to make sacrifices to establish peace, as it has done in the past with Jordan and Egypt. Unfortunately the Palestinians as they say "never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity" and have shown many times that all they are interested in is the total destruction of the Israeli state to be replaced by an Islamic Palestinian Kalifate. That of course will never happen.

 

[Indofred]

This is directed primarily to the anti-Israel/pro-"Palestinian" posters...

1. Do you believe that there should be a Jewish State of Israel?

No. No state should be built on a bigoted/racist principle that allows for only one religion/ethnic group/whatever.
That is wrong.

2. The Old City of Jerusalem should be under (a) Israeli control; (b) Jordanian control; (c) Palestinian control; or (d) International control?

Palestinian. The Israelis are the invading force so have no rights under international law.

3. Do you believe that a viable "2 state solution" can include a "Palestinian right of return" to Israel?

Jews have the right of return to Israel even if they have never been there so why not allow the people who were there prior to Israel's creation to return.
Many Jews returned to Germany after the Nazis were removed.

4. Rocket fire from Gaza into Israel constitutes (a) terrorist activity, or (b) legitimate resistence.

Legitimate as they're fighting an occupying force - However, I disagree with it because they're:
1- ineffective
2 - Civilians could be hurt
3 - The rockets give the Israeli government an excuse for mass murder

5. Do you believe that the majority of those who consider themselves "Palestinians" support a "two-state solution" resulting in a peaceful coexistence with a Jewish State of Israel?

I'll answer 5 outside the quote box so the software will accept the post.

I have too little information to make anything than a 'best guess' on this question but I'll have a stab at it.
I firmly believe, most people want to live a life in peace so, that in mind, I'd guess the majority would accept it based on the '67 borders.
However, I don't believe Israel will willingly give up that land but will try to play for as much time as possible to avoid giving an inch back.
If they truly intended to aim for peace, they wouldn't build illegal settlements on occupied land.

The problems Israel creates are of its government's making. The whole country was founded on bigoted ideals and started by terrorists.
The '67 war was started by Israel and they continue to build illegally on stolen land whist blaming everyone else for their self made problems.
The Zionist extremists have caused countless deaths along with misery and suffering as extremism always does.

Frankly, if we could get rid of the extremist idiots on both sides of the fence - the killing could stop tomorrow.

 

[Lipush]

Yes, this is part of the same "self definition" you want us to give the Palestinians, that you're in a hurry to deny of us.

We may want to maintain our Jewish cultural religious hegemony, and you know what? we have the full justified right to.

in a world where there are Dozens of Muslim and Christian countries, 1 country for the Jews, to be DEFINED as a JEWISH country, is completely fair ga in modern times.me.

I don't get why the raised eyebrows!

you are not fully justified in doing it if it infringes upon or otherwise deprives others of their human rights.

i believe in seperation of church and state as my country was founded, in part, on those principles. some religious states, such as the vatican, are regarded as heads of a religion and are small and titular. there is also a difference between founding a state based upon a religion and recognising one that is alteady there. the other religious states that exist were formed by the indigenous people. israel was ormed by a migration of religious people.

what exactly is the "self definition" i want to give to the palestinians.

But Judaism is NATIONALITY. the religious aspect is only 1% of it. that's why the comparison of it to Christianity is highly inaccurate.

I am all for human rights, but once they call to destroy Israel, that is the not so high standards of human rights, either.

 

[editec]

These two Abrahamic religions cannot live peacefully in the same state.

Extremist Islam V extremist Judaism.

I have no doubt that there are rational members of both religions living in that region but they have no power to stop the radicals.

 

[Coyote]

This is directed primarily to the anti-Israel/pro-"Palestinian" posters...

1. Do you believe that there should be a Jewish State of Israel?

No. No state should be built on a bigoted/racist principle that allows for only one religion/ethnic group/whatever.
That is wrong.

But in reality - Israel does allow for all religions.

2. The Old City of Jerusalem should be under (a) Israeli control; (b) Jordanian control; (c) Palestinian control; or (d) International control?

Palestinian. The Israelis are the invading force so have no rights under international law.

Jerusalem has been invaded and held by different people's throughout history. Who has the right to it? In addition - many of the Israeli's are the same people as the Palestinians, have been there the same amount of time. It's not that clear cut.

Frankly, if we could get rid of the extremist idiots on both sides of the fence - the killing could stop tomorrow.

Totally agree!

 

[Coyote]

Yes, this is part of the same "self definition" you want us to give the Palestinians, that you're in a hurry to deny of us.

We may want to maintain our Jewish cultural religious hegemony, and you know what? we have the full justified right to.

in a world where there are Dozens of Muslim and Christian countries, 1 country for the Jews, to be DEFINED as a JEWISH country, is completely fair ga in modern times.me.

I don't get why the raised eyebrows!

you are not fully justified in doing it if it infringes upon or otherwise deprives others of their human rights.

i believe in seperation of church and state as my country was founded, in part, on those principles. some religious states, such as the vatican, are regarded as heads of a religion and are small and titular. there is also a difference between founding a state based upon a religion and recognising one that is alteady there. the other religious states that exist were formed by the indigenous people. israel was ormed by a migration of religious people.

what exactly is the "self definition" i want to give to the palestinians.

But Judaism is NATIONALITY. the religious aspect is only 1% of it. that's why the comparison of it to Christianity is highly inaccurate.

I am all for human rights, but once they call to destroy Israel, that is the not so high standards of human rights, either.

How can Judaism be a nationality? As a group - Jews are hugely diverse in culture, appearance, language - the only common thread is religion.

 

[Lipush]

No its not. Judaism's source is from the tribe of Judea. Judea was not a religion, but a surviving ethnic group after the kingdom of Israel was separated

We have diverse like many other nations on earth. Some of the differences are for the simple fact that this nation was parted into different locations in the world, but many of the differences are also part of the common culture of Jews.

This is soooo much more than about religion

 

[Coyote]

These two Abrahamic religions cannot live peacefully in the same state.

Extremist Islam V extremist Judaism.

I have no doubt that there are rational members of both religions living in that region but they have no power to stop the radicals.

They used to....

 

[P F Tinmore]

This is directed primarily to the anti-Israel/pro-"Palestinian" posters...

1. Do you believe that there should be a Jewish State of Israel?

No. No state should be built on a bigoted/racist principle that allows for only one religion/ethnic group/whatever.
That is wrong.

But in reality - Israel does allow for all religions.



Jerusalem has been invaded and held by different people's throughout history. Who has the right to it? In addition - many of the Israeli's are the same people as the Palestinians, have been there the same amount of time. It's not that clear cut.

Frankly, if we could get rid of the extremist idiots on both sides of the fence - the killing could stop tomorrow.

Totally agree!

Jerusalem belongs to the people who lived there before all these wars removed a lot of people from their hometown. It belongs to the native Muslims, Christians, and Jews.

No one group has the right to pig the place for themselves.

 

[sealadaigh]

No its not. Judaism's source is from the tribe of Judea. Judea was not a religion, but a surviving ethnic group after the kingdom of Israel was separated

We have diverse like many other nations on earth. Some of the differences are for the simple fact that this nation was parted into different locations in the world, but many of the differences are also part of the common culture of Jews.

This is soooo much more than about religion

study genetics and evolution and tell me you are going to get a black ethiopian PEOPLE and a blonde haired, blue eyed russian PEOPLE in what, 2000 years, 5000, not even a million.

judaism is a relgion and they use people to maintain a religious hegemony.

 

[Coyote]

But in reality - Israel does allow for all religions.



Jerusalem has been invaded and held by different people's throughout history. Who has the right to it? In addition - many of the Israeli's are the same people as the Palestinians, have been there the same amount of time. It's not that clear cut.



Totally agree!

Jerusalem belongs to the people who lived there before all these wars removed a lot of people from their hometown. It belongs to the native Muslims, Christians, and Jews.

No one group has the right to pig the place for themselves.

I agree - that's why I think international control is best.

 

[Kondor3]

Jerusalem belongs to the people who lived there before all these wars removed a lot of people from their hometown. It belongs to the native Muslims, Christians, and Jews.

No one group has the right to pig the place for themselves.

I agree - that's why I think international control is best.

No group has the right to 'pig' the place for themselves?

Why not?

The Muslims did it for centuries.

Now it's their turn in the barrel, and they're screaming bloody murder about it.

Suck it up and get used to it, the way the Christians and Jews had to do for so long.

International Control over the Holy City will not work over the long haul.

International Control is a fragile and ethereal thing and one cannot long govern a region or a city without a single firm hand at the wheel.

One controlling-faction at a time, is the only way to play this game, in the long run.

It's the Jews turn to control Jerusalem again... they went to the back of the line in 70 A.D. and have had to wait 1900+ years for another turn... they want full-value for their ride-ticket, and they seem intent on getting it, and we seem intent on backing them in that quest.

All religions will continue to be welcome to visit Jerusalem once things settle down again... all that will have changed will be who serves as Guardian or Trustee of the Holy City... and both Christians and Muslims have held that role in times past.

Let the Jews have their turn again... they paid full-price for their ticket and they've waited long enough... you (Islam) or we (Christianity) will probably get another turn in a few centuries... c'mon... be a sport...

Nothing lasts forever, and things change... welcome to the next centuries-long chapter in the history of Jerusalem...