A Flat Tax: Please help me understand how it is unfair to have a flat tax!

[DiamondDave]

Here's the trouble with the FLAT TAX, as I see it.

You know all those "loopholes" ya'll think will go away?

They won't go away because they are not part of the TAX RATE.

They are found in the tax codes and presumably are the code written to describe EXPENSES.

So read this again...the FLAT TAX, as propsed by Cain, et al, will do NOTHING to close loopholes.

The proposed tax reforms will not close a single loophole.

Was not arguing, nor supporting, Cain's plan

 

[DiamondDave]

Now I betcha....

Those promoting the arbitrary exemption of X number of the first dollars earned, are also completely against the arbitrary exemption of people making over 120K no longer having a portion go to the current SS tax.... and this would further show the hypocrisy, because that is one that does not benefit them

SS is a bone of contention anyway.

Most people have been duped into believing that SS is a good use of their money when in all reality they would be better off if they controlled that 15% of their lifetime income.

It doesn't matter how many times you run the numbers for the sheep they just refuse to believe that they can't do better than the government when it comes to their money.

True... but that is a separate argument...

My contention is that they will support the 'exceptions' when it benefits them... and not when it does not... hence another example of selective equal treatment... for the same arguments can be made for that exemption that are made for the 'floor'....

 

[DiamondDave]

Paying the same % is NOT equal treatment, since you've decided to rant about equal treatment.
You don't go to the store and pay a % of your income for a television. If the tv is 500 bucks you pay 500 bucks whether you are a millionaire or make 50 grand a year.

That is equal treatment. So equal treatment on taxes would be that everyone pays the same amount of federal taxes.

If you're going to claim a flat tax is 'equal treatment' then you're acknowledging that some individuals paying thousands more in federal taxes than other individuals is 'equal treatment'.

Once you concede that, the only other issue is how much more or less certain people should pay.

We are talking tax... not a purchase of a good or service.... are you then saying sales tax is not equal treatment...?? Seems to me it is... you're taxing the income and each dollar as a part of that income... you are not taxing a part of the individual citizen

And if you are talking good purchase... based on income, should one person pay $1 for a gallon of milk because they make 30K, and another pay $10 for the same gallon of milk because they earn 100K??

You're claiming that the same percentage tax rate is 'equal treatment'. It's not. It's like your town tax, based on your property value. It's a percent of your property value, and it might be the same percent for everyone, but it isn't an equal payment for everyone. You might pay $2000 a year in town taxes, your neighbor might pay $1000, just because his property is worth less than yours. You both get the same services from the town, but your cost is double.

How is that equal treatment?

Every dollar earned is treated exactly the same... that is equal treatment.... you are taxing the dollars earned, AKA the income....

Is sales tax equal treatment?

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Now I betcha....

Those promoting the arbitrary exemption of X number of the first dollars earned, are also completely against the arbitrary exemption of people making over 120K no longer having a portion go to the current SS tax.... and this would further show the hypocrisy, because that is one that does not benefit them

Well I am agreeing with the exemption for ALL income earners for the first 20-30k in income and am not against leaving the exemption on income over 120k being taxed for social security.

However, I think it should be raised by the base amount. So if the first 30k isn't taxed then the first 30k isn't taxed for SS either but you can be taxed upto 150k instead...its still a max income amount being taxed for SS of 120k that way.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Now I betcha....

Those promoting the arbitrary exemption of X number of the first dollars earned, are also completely against the arbitrary exemption of people making over 120K no longer having a portion go to the current SS tax.... and this would further show the hypocrisy, because that is one that does not benefit them

SS is a bone of contention anyway.

Most people have been duped into believing that SS is a good use of their money when in all reality they would be better off if they controlled that 15% of their lifetime income.

It doesn't matter how many times you run the numbers for the sheep they just refuse to believe that they can't do better than the government when it comes to their money.

Yeah I can't argue with you on those points.

 

[uscitizen]

I am not as well versed on the tax plans as the rest of you, but I do think every American enjoys the protection of our defense system, infrastructure and education. Everyone should contribute to the country regardless of the income. A flat or progressive tax would be alright, but I want those who receive welfare to contribute too, perhaps 10%. They are receiving more benefits than the rest of the population. Some that are able workers that are now on welfare may find that getting a job more profitable that welfare.

I do not like that our governemnt gives funds to religipus organizations(some churches are funded where others are not) and think that dumping the charitiy deduction may see the rich contributing less. I would like to see more government funded programs , such as Endowment to the arts and perhaps some scholarships eliminated, for that isn't constitutional for the government to to give. Scholarships should be by private donations.

Government programs must be following the strict interpretation of the constitution.

silly to make those on welfare pay the gvt tax monies just to get them back from the gvt in these benefits....why not let them keep THEIR own money, and take less in benefit monies?

taxing many, would just put them at a level of needing gvt help and qualifying for gvt help....let them keep THEIR OWN money....

they pay LOT'S in Taxes already that hurts them greatly at such a low level of income....gas taxes, cigarette taxes, SS taxes, state income taxes, medicare taxes, state sales taxes, excise taxes, property taxes in their rents, license fees, corporate taxes in all that they purchase for the state and federal gvt......

GET REAL jackson, they ALREADY contribute to their nation......wake up!

If the right cuts out the social programs for the poor they will find out how that money goes to businesses and will be missed. Causing more job losses.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Here's the trouble with the FLAT TAX, as I see it.

You know all those "loopholes" ya'll think will go away?

They won't go away because they are not part of the TAX RATE.

They are found in the tax codes and presumably are the code written to describe EXPENSES.

So read this again...the FLAT TAX, as propsed by Cain, et al, will do NOTHING to close loopholes.

The proposed tax reforms will not close a single loophole.

Cain's plan actually eliminates the tax code completely ed.

9-9-9 Plan | Herman Cain for President

Many of the flat tax proposals out there, well the ones I would support anyway, eliminate the current tax code all together and replace it with a flat tax that has a portion of your initial income that can't be taxed then a flat rate for all income above it with no deductions or exemptions.

 

[DiamondDave]

Now I betcha....

Those promoting the arbitrary exemption of X number of the first dollars earned, are also completely against the arbitrary exemption of people making over 120K no longer having a portion go to the current SS tax.... and this would further show the hypocrisy, because that is one that does not benefit them

Well I am agreeing with the exemption for ALL income earners for the first 20-30k in income and am not against leaving the exemption on income over 120k being taxed for social security.

However, I think it should be raised by the base amount. So if the first 30k isn't taxed then the first 30k isn't taxed for SS either but you can be taxed upto 150k instead...its still a max income amount being taxed for SS of 120k that way.

But you do understand that mathematically, the use of a floor does create a progressive tax rate, right?? And thus you are saying that you are not really for a flat ta, but in support of a different progressive system

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Now I betcha....

Those promoting the arbitrary exemption of X number of the first dollars earned, are also completely against the arbitrary exemption of people making over 120K no longer having a portion go to the current SS tax.... and this would further show the hypocrisy, because that is one that does not benefit them

Well I am agreeing with the exemption for ALL income earners for the first 20-30k in income and am not against leaving the exemption on income over 120k being taxed for social security.

However, I think it should be raised by the base amount. So if the first 30k isn't taxed then the first 30k isn't taxed for SS either but you can be taxed upto 150k instead...its still a max income amount being taxed for SS of 120k that way.

But you do understand that mathematically, the use of a floor does create a progressive tax rate, right?? And thus you are saying that you are not really for a flat ta, but in support of a different progressive system

I understand that and I personally don't find it ideal but I also know the democrats and liberal people will not support a flat tax plan that doesn't do that. Thats what I gathered from my discussion with this thread yesterday.

Even the millionaires/billionaires wouldn't have to pay taxes on that first 30k too so its still, in effect, fair/equitable.

 

[DiamondDave]

Well I am agreeing with the exemption for ALL income earners for the first 20-30k in income and am not against leaving the exemption on income over 120k being taxed for social security.

However, I think it should be raised by the base amount. So if the first 30k isn't taxed then the first 30k isn't taxed for SS either but you can be taxed upto 150k instead...its still a max income amount being taxed for SS of 120k that way.

But you do understand that mathematically, the use of a floor does create a progressive tax rate, right?? And thus you are saying that you are not really for a flat ta, but in support of a different progressive system

I understand that and I personally don't find it ideal but I also know the democrats and liberal people will not support a flat tax plan that doesn't do that. Thats what I gathered from my discussion with this thread yesterday.

Even the millionaires/billionaires wouldn't have to pay taxes on that first 30k too so its still, in effect, fair/equitable.

I may not agree... but I can accept that... because you're not trying to blow smoke.... I just don't find any progressive system as equal treatment... whether or not a lib supports it is irrelevant to me...

 

[editec]

Here's the trouble with the FLAT TAX, as I see it.

You know all those "loopholes" ya'll think will go away?

They won't go away because they are not part of the TAX RATE.

They are found in the tax codes and presumably are the code written to describe EXPENSES.

So read this again...the FLAT TAX, as propsed by Cain, et al, will do NOTHING to close loopholes.

The proposed tax reforms will not close a single loophole.

Cain's plan actually eliminates the tax code completely ed.

How?

How does one completely eliminate the tax code?

What is a justified EXPENSE then?

Who defines it?


What CAins bill does is propose something but leaves the IMPORTANT bits of EVERY tax code completely unanwered/

All these tax codes are a simply plans DESIGNED to appeal to simply minds who do NOT understand anything about taxes and WHY the code must be so forking complex.

Its not the RATE that's the problem.

Its the DEDUCTIONS where the heart of darkness REALLY exist.

And we cannot simply eliminate them ALL because most of them are absolutely essantial.

What?! Are we going to tax a business on the GROSS?

No of course not! We are going to allow deductions for EXPENSES even before the TAX RATE is applied, right?.

And THAT is where REFORM really needs to be done.

And yet...when I ask this board which LOOPHOLES they think need te be addressed?

Crickets!

 

[NYcarbineer]

We are talking tax... not a purchase of a good or service.... are you then saying sales tax is not equal treatment...?? Seems to me it is... you're taxing the income and each dollar as a part of that income... you are not taxing a part of the individual citizen

And if you are talking good purchase... based on income, should one person pay $1 for a gallon of milk because they make 30K, and another pay $10 for the same gallon of milk because they earn 100K??

You're claiming that the same percentage tax rate is 'equal treatment'. It's not. It's like your town tax, based on your property value. It's a percent of your property value, and it might be the same percent for everyone, but it isn't an equal payment for everyone. You might pay $2000 a year in town taxes, your neighbor might pay $1000, just because his property is worth less than yours. You both get the same services from the town, but your cost is double.

How is that equal treatment?

Every dollar earned is treated exactly the same... that is equal treatment.... you are taxing the dollars earned, AKA the income....

Is sales tax equal treatment?

The sales tax is equal treatment because your tax bill isn't based on your earnings. The income tax, even if flat, is not equal treatment because your tax bill varies based on your earnings;

varying one's tax bill based on one's earnings - if considered fair or equal treatment - assumes that higher earners owe more towards the running of the government than do lower income earners...

...is that what you believe? Do you believe that your contribution to, say, funding the wars should be double your neighbors contribution, only because he earns half of what you do?

Do you believe he deserves a 50% discount from what you pay for that government 'service'? Do you believe that is 'equal treatment'?

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Here's the trouble with the FLAT TAX, as I see it.

You know all those "loopholes" ya'll think will go away?

They won't go away because they are not part of the TAX RATE.

They are found in the tax codes and presumably are the code written to describe EXPENSES.

So read this again...the FLAT TAX, as propsed by Cain, et al, will do NOTHING to close loopholes.

The proposed tax reforms will not close a single loophole.

Cain's plan actually eliminates the tax code completely ed.

How?

How does one completely eliminate the tax code?

What is a justified EXPENSE then?

Who defines it?


What CAins bill does is propose something but leaves the IMPORTANT bits of EVERY tax code completely unanwered/

All these tax codes are a simply plans DESIGNED to appeal to simply minds who do NOT understand anything about taxes and WHY the code must be so forking complex.

Its not the RATE that's the problem.

Its the DEDUCTIONS where the heart of darkness REALLY exist.

And we cannot simply eliminate them ALL because most of them are absolutely essantial.

What?! Are we going to tax a business on the GROSS?

No of course not! We are going to allow deductions for EXPENSES even before the TAX RATE is applied, right?.

And THAT is where REFORM really needs to be done.

And yet...when I ask this board which LOOPHOLES they think need te be addressed?

Crickets!

Explainer: Herman Cain's 999 Tax Plan - Is it Really That Simple? - WNYC

^^^^^ That might help you understand what you didn't understand from the other link I gave you containing the actual plan. The article is tough on cain's plan so I think you might enjoy it.

It completely eliminates the current tax code.

 

[Ravi]

our gvt can not tax all earnings as it stands now....

our gvt taxes, taxable income, not anyone's full income, just as our gvt taxes businesses on their profit, not their entire income.

this is why there is a standard deduction and personal exemption....the gvt can NOT tax you on necessities it can only tax you on your perceived profits.

someone making 10k being taxed $1000 bucks is taking food out of his mouth or a roof over their head.

I agree with a flat tax, but only if there is a personal deduction for everyone, where their immediate needs are not taxed.....

Are you saying a flat tax is unconstitutional.

 

[DiamondDave]

You're claiming that the same percentage tax rate is 'equal treatment'. It's not. It's like your town tax, based on your property value. It's a percent of your property value, and it might be the same percent for everyone, but it isn't an equal payment for everyone. You might pay $2000 a year in town taxes, your neighbor might pay $1000, just because his property is worth less than yours. You both get the same services from the town, but your cost is double.

How is that equal treatment?

Every dollar earned is treated exactly the same... that is equal treatment.... you are taxing the dollars earned, AKA the income....

Is sales tax equal treatment?

The sales tax is equal treatment because your tax bill isn't based on your earnings. The income tax, even if flat, is not equal treatment because your tax bill varies based on your earnings;

varying one's tax bill based on one's earnings - if considered fair or equal treatment - assumes that higher earners owe more towards the running of the government than do lower income earners...

...is that what you believe? Do you believe that your contribution to, say, funding the wars should be double your neighbors contribution, only because he earns half of what you do?

Do you believe he deserves a 50% discount from what you pay for that government 'service'? Do you believe that is 'equal treatment'?

No matter how much you spend, whether it be $10 or $10K, the tax is the same on every dollar spent.. having it the same on every dollar earned is also equal treatment...

Would you rather do away with the income tax and have it a consumption tax, like a sales tax, with the same % on every dollar spent by every citizen?? Personally, I'd accept that.. even though I think it is easier to hide because if you save and not spend, you are not getting taxed.... and I think you will see more under the table transactions to avoid taxation

I believe in the rate more than the flat fee... making it less about the person... and the less personal or subjective shit you have in government, the better

Again.. in the flat tax, it is about each dollar earned... regardless of the person, regardless of which dollar it is... it is blind and equal

 

[editec]

Cain's plan actually eliminates the tax code completely ed.

How?

How does one completely eliminate the tax code?

What is a justified EXPENSE then?

Who defines it?


What CAins bill does is propose something but leaves the IMPORTANT bits of EVERY tax code completely unanwered/

All these tax codes are a simply plans DESIGNED to appeal to simply minds who do NOT understand anything about taxes and WHY the code must be so forking complex.

Its not the RATE that's the problem.

Its the DEDUCTIONS where the heart of darkness REALLY exist.

And we cannot simply eliminate them ALL because most of them are absolutely essantial.

What?! Are we going to tax a business on the GROSS?

No of course not! We are going to allow deductions for EXPENSES even before the TAX RATE is applied, right?.

And THAT is where REFORM really needs to be done.

And yet...when I ask this board which LOOPHOLES they think need te be addressed?

Crickets!

Explainer: Herman Cain's 999 Tax Plan - Is it Really That Simple? - WNYC

^^^^^ That might help you understand what you didn't understand from the other link I gave you containing the actual plan. The article is tough on cain's plan so I think you might enjoy it.

It completely eliminates the current tax code.

No, THIS DOES not REMOTELY address the complaint I have about the FLAT TAX plan.

QUESTION: The COST OF GOOD SOLD.

Deductable or not?

Obviously it MUST BE.

So...those loopholes?

AGAIN, WHICH LOOPHOLES does this plan address?

ANSWER

NOT ONE OF THEM.

Cains plan eliminate ZERO loopholes.

All it really addresses are the TAX RATES, not the laws about deuctions for goods and services, JUST the RATES paid on PROFITS.

Well...what is profit?

Jesus am I speaking ENGLISH here?

Are NONE of you coversent with the way business originally determines what is profit and what was expense?

That is WHY the tax code is so forking complex.

Because it is addressing the deductions for thousands of different types of businesses.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

You're speaking english your just not comprehending what the plan entails.

Try reading it again it will eliminate the current tax code.

9-9-9 Plan | Herman Cain for President

Phase One

Our current economic crisis calls for bold action to truly stimulate the economy and Renew America back to its greatness. The 9-9-9 Plan gets Washington D.C. out of the business of picking winners and losers, using the tax code to dole out favors, and dividing the country with class warfare. It is fair, simple, transparent and efficient. It taxes everything once and nothing twice. It taxes the broadest possible base at the lowest possible rates. It is neutral with respect to savings and consumption,capital and labor, imports and exports and whether companies pay dividends or retain earnings.

9% Business Flat Tax
◦Gross income less all purchases from other U.S. located businesses, all capital investment, and net exports.
◦Empowerment Zones will offer deductions for the payroll of those employed in the zone

9% Individual Flat Tax.
◦Gross income less charitable deductions.
◦Empowerment Zones will offer additional deductions for those living and/or working in the zone.

9% National Sales Tax.
◦Unlike a state sales tax, which is an add-on tax that increases the price of goods and services, this is a replacement tax. It replaces taxes that are already embedded in selling prices. By replacing higher marginal rates in the production process with lower marginal rates, marginal production costs actually decline, which will lead to prices being the same or lower, not higher.

Economic Impact
◦According to former Reagan Treasury official Gary Robbins, of Fiscal Associates, the 9-9-9 Plan will expand GDP by $2 trillion, create 6 million new jobs, increase business investment by one third, and increase wages by 10%.


9-9-9 Plan: Summary
•Removes all payroll taxes and unites all tax payers
•Provides the least incentive to evade taxes and the fewest opportunities to do so
•Lifts a $430 billion dead-weight burden on the economy due to compliance, enforcement, collection, etc…
•Is fair, simple, efficient, neutral, and transparent
•Ends nearly all deductions and special interest favors
•Features zero tax on capital gains and repatriated profits
•Exports leave our shores without the Business Tax or the Sales Tax embedded in their cost, making them world class competitive. Imports are subject to the same taxation as domestically produced goods, leveling the playing field.
•Lowest marginal rates on production
•Kills the Death Tax
•Allows immediate expensing of business investments
•Eliminates double taxation of dividends
•Increases capital formation which aids capital availability for small businesses
•Increased capital per worker drives productivity and wage growth
•Features a platform to launch properly structured Empowerment Zones to renew our inner cities
•The pro-growth, pro-job, pro-export economic policies of the 9-9-9 PLAN equals a strong dollar policy


Phase 2 – The Fair Tax

Amidst a backdrop of the economic renewal created by the 9-9-9 Plan, I will begin the process of educating the American people on the benefits of continuing the next step to the Fair Tax.
•Ultimately replaces individual and corporate income taxes
•Ends the IRS as we know it and repeals the 16th Amendment

 

[Care4all]

You're speaking english your just not comprehending what the plan entails.

Try reading it again it will eliminate the current tax code.

9-9-9 Plan | Herman Cain for President

Phase One

Our current economic crisis calls for bold action to truly stimulate the economy and Renew America back to its greatness. The 9-9-9 Plan gets Washington D.C. out of the business of picking winners and losers, using the tax code to dole out favors, and dividing the country with class warfare. It is fair, simple, transparent and efficient. It taxes everything once and nothing twice. It taxes the broadest possible base at the lowest possible rates. It is neutral with respect to savings and consumption,capital and labor, imports and exports and whether companies pay dividends or retain earnings.

9% Business Flat Tax
◦Gross income less all purchases from other U.S. located businesses, all capital investment, and net exports.
◦Empowerment Zones will offer deductions for the payroll of those employed in the zone

9% Individual Flat Tax.
◦Gross income less charitable deductions.
◦Empowerment Zones will offer additional deductions for those living and/or working in the zone.

9% National Sales Tax.
◦Unlike a state sales tax, which is an add-on tax that increases the price of goods and services, this is a replacement tax. It replaces taxes that are already embedded in selling prices. By replacing higher marginal rates in the production process with lower marginal rates, marginal production costs actually decline, which will lead to prices being the same or lower, not higher.

Economic Impact
◦According to former Reagan Treasury official Gary Robbins, of Fiscal Associates, the 9-9-9 Plan will expand GDP by $2 trillion, create 6 million new jobs, increase business investment by one third, and increase wages by 10%.


9-9-9 Plan: Summary
•Removes all payroll taxes and unites all tax payers
•Provides the least incentive to evade taxes and the fewest opportunities to do so
•Lifts a $430 billion dead-weight burden on the economy due to compliance, enforcement, collection, etc…
•Is fair, simple, efficient, neutral, and transparent
•Ends nearly all deductions and special interest favors
•Features zero tax on capital gains and repatriated profits
•Exports leave our shores without the Business Tax or the Sales Tax embedded in their cost, making them world class competitive. Imports are subject to the same taxation as domestically produced goods, leveling the playing field.
•Lowest marginal rates on production
•Kills the Death Tax
•Allows immediate expensing of business investments
•Eliminates double taxation of dividends
•Increases capital formation which aids capital availability for small businesses
•Increased capital per worker drives productivity and wage growth
•Features a platform to launch properly structured Empowerment Zones to renew our inner cities
•The pro-growth, pro-job, pro-export economic policies of the 9-9-9 PLAN equals a strong dollar policy


Phase 2 – The Fair Tax

Amidst a backdrop of the economic renewal created by the 9-9-9 Plan, I will begin the process of educating the American people on the benefits of continuing the next step to the Fair Tax.
•Ultimately replaces individual and corporate income taxes
•Ends the IRS as we know it and repeals the 16th Amendment

What is an "empowerment zone"?

 

[editec]

CVAins plan closes no BUSINESS loopholes, amigo.

It proposes a lot of changes but closing loopholes is NOT among them.

 

[NYcarbineer]

You're speaking english your just not comprehending what the plan entails.

Try reading it again it will eliminate the current tax code.

9-9-9 Plan | Herman Cain for President

Phase One

Our current economic crisis calls for bold action to truly stimulate the economy and Renew America back to its greatness. The 9-9-9 Plan gets Washington D.C. out of the business of picking winners and losers, using the tax code to dole out favors, and dividing the country with class warfare. It is fair, simple, transparent and efficient. It taxes everything once and nothing twice. It taxes the broadest possible base at the lowest possible rates. It is neutral with respect to savings and consumption,capital and labor, imports and exports and whether companies pay dividends or retain earnings.

9% Business Flat Tax
◦Gross income less all purchases from other U.S. located businesses, all capital investment, and net exports.
◦Empowerment Zones will offer deductions for the payroll of those employed in the zone

9% Individual Flat Tax.
◦Gross income less charitable deductions.
◦Empowerment Zones will offer additional deductions for those living and/or working in the zone.

9% National Sales Tax.
◦Unlike a state sales tax, which is an add-on tax that increases the price of goods and services, this is a replacement tax. It replaces taxes that are already embedded in selling prices. By replacing higher marginal rates in the production process with lower marginal rates, marginal production costs actually decline, which will lead to prices being the same or lower, not higher.

How is SS funded without the payroll tax? How do future SS funds earn interest?