A Jew Only Jerusalem?

[georgephillip]

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine..."

Jews have been prejudicing the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine since the inception of Zionism. Currently there are nearly equal numbers of Jews and non-Jews living under Israeli laws between the River and the sea.

Every Jew has a vote in Israeli elections.
Less than half of non-Jews have the same privilege.
Would you call that prejudicial?

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kondor3]

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine..."

Jews have been prejudicing the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine since the inception of Zionism. Currently there are nearly equal numbers of Jews and non-Jews living under Israeli laws between the River and the sea.

Every Jew has a vote in Israeli elections.
Less than half of non-Jews have the same privilege.
Would you call that prejudicial?

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Muslim-Arabs who chose to remain in their homes and to live peacefully alongside the new Jewish rulers of the portion of Palestine which became the State of Israel, eventually became fully-enfranchised citizens of the State of Israel.

The Muslim-Arabs who backed the five-Arab-nation attack against the new State of Israel in 1948 - who fled when the fighting started and aided and abetted the attacking Arabs and hoped that the Arabs would drive the Jews into the Med - ended-up backing the wrong side, as the Jews won their Independence.

Those Muslim-Arab Palestinians chose poorly.

Choices have consequences.

Their disenfranchisement is a direct result of their own poor choices.

They further compounded these problems by not making their submission and peace with the Israelis at a half-dozen or more junction-points in the past 65 years while the Israelis were still agreeable to a negotiated solution; missing opportunities to re-integrate into life in the State of Israel and eventually attaining the franchise for themselves.

One does not enfranchise one's sworn mortal enemies; not unless one is a fool and suicidal.

Unlike the Palestinians, the Jews of Israel are neither fools nor suicidal.

The Palestinians have no one but themselves - or their fathers or grandfathers - to blame for their disenfranchisement.

Poor choices have consequences.

 

[georgephillip]

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine..."

Jews have been prejudicing the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine since the inception of Zionism. Currently there are nearly equal numbers of Jews and non-Jews living under Israeli laws between the River and the sea.

Every Jew has a vote in Israeli elections.
Less than half of non-Jews have the same privilege.
Would you call that prejudicial?

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Muslim-Arabs who chose to remain in their homes and to live peacefully alongside the new Jewish rulers of the portion of Palestine which became the State of Israel, eventually became fully-enfranchised citizens of the State of Israel.

The Muslim-Arabs who backed the five-Arab-nation attack against the new State of Israel in 1948 - who fled when the fighting started and aided and abetted the attacking Arabs and hoped that the Arabs would drive the Jews into the Med - ended-up backing the wrong side, as the Jews won their Independence.

Those Muslim-Arab Palestinians chose poorly.

Choices have consequences.

Their disenfranchisement is a direct result of their own poor choices.

They further compounded these problems by not making their submission and peace with the Israelis at a half-dozen or more junction-points in the past 65 years while the Israelis were still agreeable to a negotiated solution; missing opportunities to re-integrate into life in the State of Israel and eventually attaining the franchise for themselves.

One does not enfranchise one's sworn mortal enemies; not unless one is a fool and suicidal.

Unlike the Palestinians, the Jews of Israel are neither fools nor suicidal.

The Palestinians have no one but themselves - or their fathers or grandfathers - to blame for their disenfranchisement.

Poor choices have consequences.

Zionism is living proof:

"It is the] iron law of every colonizing movement, a law which knows of no exceptions, a law which existed in all times and under all circumstances.

"If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison on your behalf Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempts to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not 'difficult,' not 'dangerous' but impossible!...

"Zionism is a colonizing adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force.

"It is important to build, it is important to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot-or else I am through with playing at colonization."

Why do you believe a colonizing adventure that stands or falls by the question of armed force represents a good choice?

The Hidden Roots of Zionism

 

[laughinReaper]

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine..."

Jews have been prejudicing the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine since the inception of Zionism. Currently there are nearly equal numbers of Jews and non-Jews living under Israeli laws between the River and the sea.

Every Jew has a vote in Israeli elections.
Less than half of non-Jews have the same privilege.
Would you call that prejudicial?

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nobody's saying there isn't problems but:

FACT

Israel is one of the most open societies in the world. Out of a population of 6.7 million, about 1.3 million — 20 percent of the population — are non-Jews (approximately 1.1 million Muslims, 130,000 Christians and 100,000 Druze).1

Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact, it is one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote. Arabs currently hold 8 seats in the 120-seat Knesset. Israeli Arabs have also held various government posts, including one who served as Israel's ambassador to Finland and the current deputy mayor of Tel Aviv. Oscar Abu Razaq was appointed Director General of the Ministry of Interior, the first Arab citizen to become chief executive of a key government ministry. Ariel Sharon's original cabinet included the first Arab minister, Salah Tarif, a Druze who served as a minister without portfolio. An Arab is also a Supreme Court justice.

Arabic, like Hebrew, is an official language in Israel. More than 300,000 Arab children attend Israeli schools. At the time of Israel's founding, there was one Arab high school in the country. Today, there are hundreds of Arab schools.2

In 2002, the Israeli Supreme Court also ruled that the government cannot allocate land based on religion or ethnicity, and may not prevent Arab citizens from living wherever they choose.2a

The sole legal distinction between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel is that the latter are not required to serve in the Israeli army. This is to spare Arab citizens the need to take up arms against their brethren. Nevertheless, Bedouins have served in paratroop units and other Arabs have volunteered for military duty. Compulsory military service is applied to the Druze and Circassian communities at their own request.

Some economic and social gaps between Israeli Jews and Arabs result from the latter not serving in the military. Veterans qualify for many benefits not available to non-veterans. Moreover, the army aids in the socialization process.

On the other hand, Arabs do have an advantage in obtaining some jobs during the years Israelis are in the military. In addition, industries like construction and trucking have come to be dominated by Israeli Arabs.

Although Israeli Arabs have occasionally been involved in terrorist activities, they have generally behaved as loyal citizens. During the 1967, 1973 and 1982 wars, none engaged in any acts of sabotage or disloyalty. Sometimes, in fact, Arabs volunteered to take over civilian functions for reservists. During the outbreak of violence in the territories that began in September 2000, Israeli Arabs for the first time engaged in widespread protests with some violence.

The United States has been independent for almost 230 years and still has not integrated all of its diverse communities. Even today, 60 years after civil rights legislation was adopted, discrimination has not been eradicated. It should not be surprising that Israel has not solved all of its social problems in only 57 years.

Myths & Facts - Human Rights in Israel and the Territories



Israel's Declaration of Independence called for the establishment of a Jewish state with equality of social and political rights, irrespective of religion, race, or sex.[156]

The rights of citizens are guaranteed by a set of basic laws (Israel does not have a written constitution).[157] Although this set of laws does not explicitly include the term "right to equality", the Israeli Supreme Court has consistently interpreted "Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty"[158] and "Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation (1994)"[159] as guaranteeing equal rights for all Israeli citizens.[160]

The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs states that "Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel with equal rights" and states that "The only legal distinction between Arab and Jewish citizens is not one of rights, but rather of civic duty. Since Israel's establishment, Arab citizens have been exempted from compulsory service in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF)."[161] Druze and Circassians are drafted into the Israeli army, while other Arabs may serve voluntarily; however, only a very small number of Arabs choose to volunteer for the Israeli army[162]).

Many Arab citizens feel that the state, as well as society at large, not only actively limits them to second-class citizenship, but treats them as enemies, impacting their perception of the de jure versus de facto quality of their citizenship.[163] The joint document The Future Vision of the Palestinian Arabs in Israel, asserts: "Defining the Israeli State as a Jewish State and:eusa exploiting democracy in the service of its Jewishness excludes us, and creates tension between us and the nature and essence of the State." The document explains that by definition the "Jewish State" concept is based on ethnically preferential treatment towards Jews enshrined in immigration (the Law of Return) and land policy (the Jewish National Fund), and calls for the establishment of minority rights protections enforced by an independent anti-discrimination commission.[164]

A 2004 report by Mossawa, an advocacy center for Palestinian-Arab citizens of Israel, states that since the events of October 2000, 16 Arabs had been killed by security forces, bringing the total to 29 victims of "institutional violence" in four years.[165] Ahmed Sa'adi, in his article on The Concept of Protest and its Representation by the Or Commission, states that since 1948 the only protestors to be killed by the police have been Arabs.[166]

Yousef Munayyer, an Israeli citizen and the executive director of The Jerusalem Fund, wrote that Palestinians only have varying degrees of limited rights in Israel. Although Palestinians make up about 20 percent of Israel's population, less than 7 percent is allocated to Palestinian citizens. He describes 1.5 million as second-class citizens while four million more are not citizens at all. He points out that a Jew from any country can move to Israel but a Palestinian refugee, with a valid claim to property in Israel, cannot. Munayyer also described the difficulties he and his wife faced when visiting the country
Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Are there problems, Yes, however you can see the problem when the Arab Muslims say that the very definition of Israel as being a Jewish state. They feel this excludes them. Really? Isn't that kinda like the pot calling the kettle black? There are 50+ Muslim based countries in the world and only ONE Jewish State. Other religions live in said Muslim countries so why don't those countries have secular rule? I'd also like to point out that the "Palestinians" have had several chances since 1917 to have their own state and turned it down repeatedly. Now Israel has given them land, they have thier own state,Muslim rule, Hamas in fact. Now lets see how the civil rights stack up there. Now before you take the splinter out of the Israeli eye, maybe the Palestinians should take the massive log out of their own.


1.Freedom of speech[edit source]

The PA has guaranteed freedom of assembly to the Palestinian population. Nevertheless, the right to demonstrate for opponents of the PA regime or of PA policy has become increasingly subject to police control and restriction and is a source of concern for human rights groups[5]


2.Freedom of the press[edit source]

As of 2006, sixteen Palestinian journalists have been killed or wounded by PA security forces or armed groups.[15]

Abdullah Issa, Palestinian publisher and editor of the on-line magazine Donia al Watan was detained in July 2006 by the Palestinian Authority for publishing a story about the theft of $400,000 from PA Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar while visiting Kuwait. The story cast aspersions on Hamas for having large amounts of cash while the Palestinian people were suffering from poverty. This story had appeared elsewhere in the Arabic media. Issa, accused Zahar and Hamas of interfering with freedom of the press in the Palestinian territories and expressed disappointment with Hamas's failure to reign in corruption as promised in their election platform: "Our people have the right to hold Hamas accountable for the deterioration in their living conditions,...We were hoping that the Hamas government would start chasing and arresting all the murderers and thugs who continue to roam the streets of the Gaza Strip and to open all the cases of financial corruption." Donia al Watan's offices have been attacked by masked gunmen and there have been death threats against Issa and staff.[16]


3.Freedom of association[edit source]

In 2000 the Palestinian President ratified the first Palestinian Labor Law. However, according to the Democracy and Workers' Rights Center (DWRC) the final draft lacked teeth;[20][21] late in 2005, working with Palestinian Authority legal experts, DWRC successfully achieved Palestinian Legislative Council acceptance of an alternative Palestinian Labor Law.[22]

The decades-old Palestinian General Federation of Trade Unions (PGFTU), which claims to represent all Palestinian workers, was incorporated into the PA upon its inception. Independent unionists assert the PGFTU lacks in internal democracy and transparency, and is dominated by Fateh (all of its general secretaries and most of its unit heads have come from Fateh). In a 2007 press release carried by the Advocacy Project, DWRC noted that internal elections had not been held since 1981.[23] These critiques have been supported by scholars Joost Hiltermann,[24][25] Nina Sovich[26][27] and Sos Nissen,[28] who argue that the PGFTU has long been dominated by political factions and has in turn failed to provide effective representation for workers.

According to the PGFTU, in June 2007 Hamas seized their headquarters and ordered PGFTU staff to discuss how they were to operate under Hamas rule. According to the PGFTU general secretary, the PGFTU's refusal to negotiate led Hamas to attempt to assassinate Rasem Al Bayari, the union's deputy general secretary, three times thereafter. According to Al-Jazeera, "Saed, who has been linked to Fatah, said Hamas executive forces had seized two more offices - in Gaza and Khan Younis - taking much of the property within."[29]

In 2007, when DWRC organized the Federation of Independent and Democratic Trade Unions & Workers' Committees in Palestine representing 50,000 workers outside of the PGFTU,[30] the PGFTU retaliated by informing on the Gaza head of DWRC and the independent trade union coalition to Palestinian internal security, claiming that they were affiliated with Hamas.[31]


4.Freedom of property ownership[edit source]

In the Palestinian National Authority, selling land to Jews is a crime PUNISHABLE BY DEATH.[32]


5.Freedom of religion[edit source]

Many Jewish and Christian holy sites remain in areas controlled by the Palestinian National Authority. Under the Oslo Accords, both the Palestinians and Israel agreed to respect and protect religious rights of Jews, Christians, Muslims, and Samaritans by a) protecting the Holy Sites, 2) providing free access to the Holy Sites, and assuring freedom of worship and practice. a. Protection of the Holy Sites; b. Free access to the Holy Sites; and c. Freedom of worship and practice. The PA, however, has in some cases failed to honor these commitments (see sections below).

A Christian leader claimed that there were "rampant reports" of abuses and persecution in PA-run areas. Anti-Christian riots were reported in Ramallah and surrounding villages, as well as in towns in the Gaza Strip.[14]

Christian sites[edit source]

During 2007 many Western and Christian targets were attacked in the West Bank and Gaza. Members of local gangs and terror cells blew up and destroyed institutions linked to Western culture such as American schools, church libraries and dozens of Internet cafes. These events were largely ignored by the media.[33]

According to the U.S. State Department's Annual Report on Religious Freedom, 2000, "there were periodic reports that some Christian converts from Islam who publicize their religious beliefs have been harassed. Converts complained that they were mistreated and threatened. The draft Palestinian Basic Law specifically forbids discrimination against individuals based on their religion; however, the PA did not take any action against persons accused of harassment".[34]

After a visit to the Palestinian Authority administered areas, Senator Connie Mack related on the floor of the US Senate the case of a Christian convert from Islam who was falsely charged with selling land to Jews, arrested, beaten and tortured, and held for eight months without trial. Despite being released after his family borrowed thousands of dollars for bribes, his father continued to be held, he believed as insurance of his silence on the matter.[35]


7.Jewish sites[edit source]

Joseph's Tomb in Nablus was a site of clashes between Jews and Palestinians. The Israeli army agreed to withdraw from the site and turn over control to the Palestinian police, who had agreed to protect the site. Instead, they stood by while mobs ransacked the site and burned holy books.[36]

Moreover, prominent members of the PA have denied that there is any Jewish historical connection to many Jewish holy sites, and PA Ministries have embedded such ideas in their press releases:

Yasser Arafat:
"That is not the Western Wall at all, but a Moslem shrine". – Yasser Arafat.[37]
"Abraham was neither Jewish nor a Hebrew, but was simply an Iraqi. The Jews have no right to claim part of the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron, Abraham's resting place, as a synagogue. Rather, the whole building should be a mosque."[38]

Mufti Sheikh 'Ikrima Sabri:
"No stone of the Al-Buraq [Western] Wall has any relation to Judaism. The Jews began praying at this wall only in the 19th century, when they began to develop [national] aspirations."[39]

PA Information Ministry Press Release:
"The archeology of Jerusalem is diverse – excavations in the Old City and the areas surrounding it revealed Umayyad Islamic palaces, Roman ruins, Armenian ruins and others, but nothing Jewish. Outside of what is mentioned in the Old and New Testaments, there is no tangible evidence of any Jewish traces in the old city of Jerusalem and its immediate vicinity."[40]

Al-Hayat Al-Jadeeda, PA newspaper:
"Be alert and treat Joseph's Tomb and Rachel's Tomb as parcels of Palestinian land which must be liberated, and treat Joseph and Rachel as two people who died, like anyone else."[41]

8.Right to education[edit source]

According the ministerial statistic collected in September 2005, there are 2267 schools in general education, 31001 classes, 1078488 students, and 48674 teachers in the Palestinian territories. 24% of schools are UNRWA-operated, 70% are governmental, and 6% are private. Another survey conducted in May 2005 shows that there are 138139 students enrolled in Higher Education Institutions. Between these students, 9002 (6.5%) are in community colleges, 6034 (4.4%) in university colleges, 46453 (33.6%) in Al-Quds Open University, and 76650 (55.5%) in traditional universities.

Moves by the Hamas-run Education Ministry to impose Islamist ideals onto the educational system concern many Palestinians and outside observers. In March 2007, the Ministry pulled an anthology of folktales narrated by Palestinian women from the curriculum, removed the book from libraries, and reportedly destroyed 1,500 copies. The anthology was edited by Sharif Kanaana, a novelist and anthropology professor at Ramallah's Birzeit University, and Ibrahim Muhawi, a teacher of Arabic literature and the theory of translation. Education Minister Nasser Shaer said that the book is "full of clear sexual expressions." A story entitled, "The Little Bird," mentions private parts, and in the notes the authors say that, "the bird in the story is a symbol of femininity and that sexual subjects are a principal source of humor in Palestinian folklore".[42]


9.Arab Organization for Human Rights Report[edit source]

In December 2012, Arab Organization for Human Rights (AOHR) released a report that accused the Palestinian Authority (PA) of "inhumane practices and human rights violations" against Palestinian civilians. The AOHR alleges that from 2007-2011, the PA detained 13,271 Palestinians, and tortured 96% of them, resulting in six deaths.[44] The report claims that PA law enforcement raided universities, hospitals and houses in order to arrest people wanted for protesting against the Israeli occupation. The report also relates that PA officers confiscated equipment and personal cash after arresting the suspects.[44]


10.Conditions for detainees[edit source]

Amnesty International has published a number of reports documenting the Palestine Authority's arrest and detention of civilians without charge. In one year at least 400 such detentions were reported, primarily of political dissidents to the Palestine Authority .[45] In that single year Amnesty International found: "Torture [by the Palestine Authority] of detainees remained widespread. Seven detainees died in custody. Unlawful killings, including possible extrajudicial executions, continued to be reported."

11.Status of women[edit source]

Women have full suffrage in the PA. In the 2006 elections, women made up 47 per cent of registered voters. Prior to the elections, the election law was amended to introduce a quota for women on the national party lists, resulting in 22 per cent of candidates on the national lists being women. The quota's effectiveness was illustrated in comparison with the district elections, where there was no quota, and only 15 of the 414 candidates were women.[55]

Hamas has begun enforcing some Islamic standards of dress for women in the PA; women must don headscarves in order to enter government ministry buildings.[42] In July 2010, Hamas banned the smoking of hookah by women in public. They claimed that it was to reduce the increasing amount of divorces.[56]

Honor killings are a problem in the PA; the Hamas government has not moved to stop these killings and may have set up infrastructures which participate in them. According to the 2005 Annual report of The Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group, 11 Palestinian women died as a result of honor killings in 2005.[57] A November 2006 Human Rights Watch report, A Question of Security Violence against Palestinian Women and Girls,[58] notes that, "a significant number of women and girls in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) are victims of violence perpetrated by family members and intimate partners. While there is increasing recognition of the problem and some Palestinian Authority (PA) officials have indicated their support for a more forceful response, little action has been taken to seriously address these abuses. Indeed, there is some evidence the level of violence is getting worse while the remedies available to victims are being further eroded." The report discusses spousal and child abuse, rape, incest, and "honor" crimes. The report suggests that reasons for the PA's failure to respond to the violence include, "discriminatory laws that condone and perpetuate such violence and the virtual absence of institutionalized policies to prevent violence, assist victims, and hold perpetrators accountable". The report outlines Jordanian laws in force in the West Bank and Egyptian laws in Gaza, "include provisions that provide a reduction in penalty to men who kill or attack female relatives committing adultery; relieve rapists who agree to marry their victims from any criminal prosecution; and allow only male relatives to file incest charges on behalf of minors". In addition, HRW interviewed Palestinian police officers, including chiefs of police who, "downplayed the severity of violence against women in the OPT and questioned the need for their involvement in the dissemination of potentially life-saving information to victims." The report also noted that, "police officers and clan leaders regularly "mediate" and "resolve" these cases, typically by returning the abused women to the "care and protection" of her attacker, without ever referring the case to the courts or the woman to social or other services she might need". While Human Rights Watch acknowledged, "the severe constraints that the Israeli occupation imposes upon the PA," they concluded that, "notwithstanding these limitations, the PA holds ultimate responsibility for protecting victims and holding perpetrators accountable...and that PA is failing to act diligently to prevent, investigate, and punish violence against women, putting women's health and lives in jeopardy. Ultimately, the PA is denying victims their rights under international human rights law to non-discrimination and an effective judicial remedy for abuse".

Crimes against women accelerated during 2007. Cases of women being beaten are common in the Gaza strip. Women murdered for "family honor" are seldom reported. Most women who are murdered are buried by members of their family in secret, and their deaths are not reported to any official body. The Palestinian media also refrain from reporting on this, for the sake of "family honor."[33]

Israeli officials say Hamas in the Gaza Strip has established hard-line Islamic courts and created the Hamas Anti-Corruption Group, which is described as a kind of "morality police" operating within Hamas' organization. Hamas has denied the existence of the anti-corruption group, but it was recently report to have carried out a high-profile "honor killing" widely covered by the Palestinian media.[14]

In 2013, UNRWA canceled its annual marathon in Gaza after Hamas rulers prohibited women from participating in the race.[59]

Status of homosexuality[edit source]

12.Status of homosexuality[edit source]

According to Shaul Ganon of the Tel-Aviv based gay rights group, Agudah, "The P.A.'s usual excuse for persecuting gays is to label them collaborators--though I know of two cases in the last three years where people were tried explicitly for being homosexuals." "It's now impossible to be an open gay in the P.A." Ganon says that Islamic law is the main justification for such treatment of homosexuals under the Palestinian Authority.
Human rights in the Palestinian territories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kondor3]

"...Why do you believe a colonizing adventure that stands or falls by the question of armed force represents a good choice?..."

Your response does nothing to counterpoint my accusation that the Muslim-Arab Palestinians who stayed and cooperated became fully-enfranchised citizens, while the Muslim-Arab Palestinians who fled and fought (and lost) were not embraced nor enfranchised.

Why do I believe that that 'colonizing adventure' was a good choice?

Because it won?

Because the Muslim-Arab enfranchised citizens of Israel are far better off than their foolish exiled and disenfranchised kinfolk in Palestinian West-Bank and Gaza enclaves?

The relative nature of the good (best possible) choice and the wrong choice are self-evident.

Unless, of course, you believe that sitting in refugee-camps and refugee-town shit-holes for 65 years and getting the shit kicked out of you every few months as retaliation for rocket-launches and suicide bombings is a better choice than being an enfranchised citizen of a viable and reasonably well-run and efficient and militarily powerful and prosperous country run by representative government.

Your boys backed the wrong horse.

Welcome to your consequences.

 

[georgephillip]

"...Why do you believe a colonizing adventure that stands or falls by the question of armed force represents a good choice?..."

Your response does nothing to counterpoint my accusation that the Muslim-Arab Palestinians who stayed and cooperated became fully-enfranchised citizens, while the Muslim-Arab Palestinians who fled and fought (and lost) were not embraced nor enfranchised.

Why do I believe that that 'colonizing adventure' was a good choice?

Because it won?

Because the Muslim-Arab enfranchised citizens of Israel are far better off than their foolish exiled and disenfranchised kinfolk in Palestinian West-Bank and Gaza enclaves?

The relative nature of the good (best possible) choice and the wrong choice are self-evident.

Unless, of course, you believe that sitting in refugee-camps and refugee-town shit-holes for 65 years and getting the shit kicked out of you every few months as retaliation for rocket-launches and suicide bombings is a better choice than being an enfranchised citizen of a viable and reasonably well-run and efficient and militarily powerful and prosperous country run by representative government.

Your boys backed the wrong horse.

Welcome to your consequences.

Your "accusation that the Muslim-Arab population who stayed and cooperated became fully-enfranchised citizens" in 1948 is pale, stale shit since those same Palestinians lived behind barbed wire in concentration camps for a generation while "Jews" from Europe moved into their homes, businesses, and bank accounts.

If you honestly believe the Jews have won anything by instilling their nation by force of arms upon a majority of Palestinians, you can probably explain why Israel's Law of Return grants citizenship to Jews anywhere in the world, while denying that same right to 750,000 Palestinians evicted from Palestine in 1948. If not, your boys are just another contingent of gangsters headed for the same fate as their brothers in Apartheid South Africa.

Your consequences, which you are more than welcome to, is to continue shilling for a apartheid state where 93% of the State of Israel is reserved under law for Jewish citizens only comparing not so favorably with 87% of Apartheid South Africa which was reserved for whites.

Shit clumps, as they say.

 

[georgephillip]

"Israeli Apartheid?

"There is ample evidence that Israel practices institutionalized discrimination against its non-Jewish citizens. While whites in South Africa sought to control non-whites, Israel has since its establishment pursued various means of getting rid of its non-Jewish population altogether.

"The word apartheid refers to any institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over another.

"The 'Israeli Arabs' - about 1.4 million Palestinian Christian and Muslim citizens who live in Israel - vote in elections. But they are a subordinated and marginalized minority.

"The Star of David on Israel's flag symbolically tells Palestinian citizens: 'You do not belong.'

"Israel's Law of Return grants rights of automatic citizenship to Jews anywhere in the world, while those rights are denied to 750,000 Palestinian refugees who were forced or fled in fear from their homes in what became Israel in 1948.

"All Israeli politicians are committed to preserving Israel's Jewishness.

"They have to be.

"It's the law.

"As the state of the Jewish people, Israel is the only country in the world that expressly claims not to be the state of its actual citizens (who include a million non-Jews), let alone that of the people whom it actually governs (half of whom are Palestinian Arabs).

"Most of Israel's land is the property not of the Israeli people, but of Jewish people everywhere.

"As non-Jews, Palestinian citizens of Israel are barred from access to state land.

"Israel's newly revised nationality law prohibits Palestinian citizens of Israel from marrying Palestinians from the occupied territories and living with their spouses in Israel.

"The same law does not apply to Jewish Israelis who marry Jewish settlers living in the occupied territories. Similar legislation had been proposed in South Africa at the peak of Apartheid, only to be rejected by that country's supreme court. Israel's nationality law was endorsed by Israel's High Court in 2006."

Is Israel an Apartheid State?

 

[Kondor3]

"...Your "accusation that the Muslim-Arab population who stayed and cooperated became fully-enfranchised citizens" in 1948..."

You only recited one HALF of the 'accusation'.

The OTHER half was that the Muslim-Arab Palestinians who chose exile and combat and then lost, brought these consequences upon themselves, as a direct and long-lasting result of their poor choice.

"...If you honestly believe the Jews have won anything by instilling their nation by force of arms..."

Oh, but they have; they won back their ancestral and spiritual homeland after losing control of it some 1,900 years before. And after the Holocaust. Damn good fighting spirit, that.

"...upon a majority of Palestinians..."

Not for long.

The forthcoming mopping-up... the upcoming Annexation and Expulsion... will take care of that.

"...you can probably explain why Israel's Law of Return grants citizenship to Jews anywhere in the world, while denying that same right to 750,000 Palestinians evicted from Palestine in 1948..."

Ummmm...

Because the Israelis don't like Palestinian Exiles and because the Israelis don't trust 'em and because the Israelis probably plan on kicking them all the way out, beyond the borders of the 1922 League of Nations partition-plan map?

Because letting them back in merely delays the inevitable and makes it more painful to expel them than it would be to continue to keep them on the outskirts until Expulsion Day?

Because Israelis aren't stupid enough to allow a basket full of rattlesnakes to come into their house?

"...If not, your boys are just another contingent of gangsters headed for the same fate as their brothers in Apartheid South Africa..."

Doubtful. The Dutch-English -spawned Afrikaaners were not the generic and spiritual descendants of people who had lived-in and controlled South Africa for more than a thousand years before getting kicked out of it, then holding themselves together as a people for another 2,000 years until they could re-take South Africa, and, of course, the Afrikaaners did not Annex the lands of their adversaries and then expel them from the country.

"...Your consequences, which you are more than welcome to, is to continue shilling for a apartheid state where 93% of the State of Israel is reserved under law for Jewish citizens only comparing not so favorably with 87% of Apartheid South Africa which was reserved for whites. Shit clumps, as they say."

Very nice, I'm sure, but none of that speaks to the idea that by choosing exile and combat rather than remaining in-place and peaceful and cooperative, that the Muslim-Arab Palestinians for whom you advocate would not have been sitting in exile and disenfranchised and rotting-away in shithole refugee-camps and refugee-towns for the past 65 years.

We're quickly moving into the End Game now, and your precious Palestinians are Royally Screwed.

Nature has de-selected them, perhaps.

 

[Kondor3]

"...The Star of David on Israel's flag symbolically tells Palestinian citizens: 'You do not belong..."

Actually, it tells them TWO things...

1. You do not belong.

2. Go away.

After 65 years, any dolt with half a brain would have taken the hint, and gotten himself and his people the hell outta Dodge.

Besides...

Look who's talkin'...

 

[georgephillip]

"...The Star of David on Israel's flag symbolically tells Palestinian citizens: 'You do not belong..."

Actually, it tells them TWO things...

1. You do not belong.

2. Go away.

After 65 years, any dolt with half a brain would have taken the hint, and gotten himself and his people the hell outta Dodge.

Besides...

Look who's talkin'...

Actually, it should tell you 2,568, 855 things:

"Population[edit source | editbeta]
2,568,555 including East Jerusalem [21] population in the West Bank, excluding Israeli settlers. [22]

3,092,555 including 524,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank."

Demographics of the Palestinian territories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Star of David will be a blue stain on the Kaaba prayer mats before Palestinians leave Palestine.

 

[Kondor3]

"...The Star of David will be a blue stain on the Kaaba prayer mats before Palestinians leave Palestine."

Ahhhhh...

I did not realize that you had such a vested EMOTIONAL interest in seeing the Palestinians turn the Star of David into a 'stain' on a prayer mat...

Brave words, but meaningless...

The Palestinians themselves could not dislodge the Jews of Israel...

A half-dozen neighboring Muslim-Arab nation-states and their combined military might could not dislodge the Jews of Israel, after attacking and warring with the Jews repeatedly in the 1948-1973 timeframe (and beyond) and attempting to drive them into the Med...

Brave words, but meaningless...

You are up against a People with a religion and a cultural and social and familial history that stretches so far back in time so as to make your own 1,300 year-old Islam look like a fresh start-up venture by comparison... ya'll are Rookies and Pikers by comparison...

They do not have your numbers, but their far-deeper history, beliefs, cultural and spiritual unity, dedication, commitment and technology and military prowess and arms inventories outclass you in every possible way - in ways you cannot possibly fathom nor counter - and all of that more than makes-up for the lack of something as unimportant and indecisive as mere numbers...

Never mind a world-class nuclear arsenal and matching regional delivery systems, which preclude any chance of them being overrun for generations to come...

Your words in this context are brave, but meaningless...

They don't signify...

Wanna see what DOES signify?

That, dear colleague, is Reality...

Not only WILL you leave, but you HAVE been leaving, little by little, for 65 years now...

Were it otherwise, Hezbollah would still be operating from Palestinian soil...

But they're not, are they?

There's sooooo little Palestinian-controlled land left now, that there is virtually nothing left with which to make a nation-state; it has dwindled to insignificance...

It is no longer "Palestine"...

It is now "Rump Palestine"...

The fragment; the leftovers; the tiny slivers and slices and splotches and stains...

This game has been underway for 65 years now; accelerating after you (the Muslim-Arabs of the region) so laughingly under-performed in the 1967 War...

And that game is quickly drawing to its logical and predictable end...

The Two-Minute clock is already counting-down to End-of-Game...

Tick, tick, tick...

Look for massive evictions and congested roads (leading to Beirut and Amman and Damascus and Cairo, etc.) filled with Muslim-Arab Palestinian refugees, kids in the back, luggage on top, when the whistle blows...

Followed by annexation of the Rump and flooding it with Jewish settlers in order to consolidate and finalize their ownership and their borders, in accordance with the 1922 League of Nations Partition Plan...

Only a blind man or a fool could fail to see that we're almost there already, based upon the Palestinians own propaganda maps...

Consider it final payback for the expulsion of the Jews from so many Muslim-Arab countries during the 1948-1970 time-frame...

Something about geese and ganders...

The Day of Reckoning (eviction, egress, annexation, re-population) cannot be far off...

I'll even go so far as to speculate upon the Early Indicators (the harbinger) of the Day of Reckoning...

At present, Hamas rules with a heavy hand, and executes its own, for a wide array of so-called offenses, including 'collaborating' with Israel, selling land to Jews, and such...

It is not a far step from that, to killing their own, when their own people individually begin to emmigrate, as we would see in wholesale numbers - sufficient so as to greatly alarm and infuriate Hamas - as the Day of Reckoning approaches...

To give Palestinians the widest possible freedom of action and choice, just prior to Annexation, Israel would be obliged to neutralize Hamas, so that it is unable to kill its own, who wisely decide to pack-up and leave of their own volition...

Look for the Israelis to launch one final, quick, decisive campaign, to subdue 'troublesome areas' of Gaza, and, to a lesser extent, the West Bank, so as to preemptively break the back of any future resistance to Annexation, and to free the Palestinians to make their own personal choices about leaving with their families, or pointlessly and stupidly remaining behind to try to resist...

That final campaign against Hamas, and its inevitable outcome - the complete and utter destruction of Hamas as a governing and territory-holding organization - will be the harbinger - the early warning klaxon - that the Day of Reckoning is upon us...

Once that short, brutal, decisive military campaign has been concluded and Hamas has been shoved to the side...

The Israelis will make it painless (even easy, complete with generous compensation and logistics and relocation assistance) for those Palestinians who wisely decide to go, and very painful for those who decide to engage in a futile and pointless gesture, and try to resist the juggernaut on the Day of Reckoning...

The Muslim-Arab Palestinians who chose self-exile in 1948, and their descendants, are being kicked out of Greater Israel (as defined by the 1922 League of Nations Partition Plan) permanently...

It's called Cutting the Gordian Knot...

After 65 years of squabbling, and the killing of Israeli civilians by suicide bombing and rocketry and terror-shootings, I can't say I'm surprised...

Your words are brave, but meaningless...

The last desperate gasps and twitching of a corpse (Rump Palestine) that is already beginning to cool...

The only thing to do with what's left of Rump Palestine is to make sure that it's under the ground by nightfall, once it stops twitching...

The world will say a few words over the corpse (protest and boycott and piss and moan for a little while), then accept the fait accompli as inevitable and irreversible anyway, breath a sigh of relief that this nasty business is finally over, and go about its own and more important business once again...

The world will continue to turn, and the so-called Palestinians, by then, will be building new and better lives for themselves, amongst their ethnic brethren and co-religionists; assimilating back into the regional sub-cultures from whence they came in recent decades and centuries.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Actually, it should tell you 2,568, 855 things..."

Managed to dodge the implications of that road-sign photo, though, didn't ya?

After all, we don't want to dwell on Muslims discriminating and segregating along Religious lines, when we're trying to accuse the Jews of the same, do we?

"Goose... meet gander."

 

[GHook93]

No Jews are allowed in Gaza, all the agreement talks are a Jew free Judea and Samaria (aka the West Bank). Most countries in the middle east, north African and western Asia (aka Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangledesh etc), Turkey are close to 100% Muslim. Noticable exceptions are increasingly hostile to religion minorities. Lebanon has ethnically cleansed away their previous Christian majority to a 15-20% minority. Syrian Christian populations are now <5%. Egyptian Christains are under constant attack and their numbers slip every day.

Yet you say the evil JJJOOOOSSS are the bad one. If an religious minority MK in any country other than Israel preached against the state the way MK Zoabia does, then she would have 'disappeared' a half minute after her speech. Israel is the only country in the Middle East with free and open elections. Arabs serve in all branches of society and throughout the government.

The Jews should utilize a practice of moving out the Palestinians and moving the Jews in East Jerusalem. The Palestinians IGNORANTLY and ARROGANTLY lay claim to the capital of Israel. The Jews should move out as many of these enemies of the state as possible in as short of time as possible!

Forget the PCness and Public Relations battle. With Muslims controlling the oil flow, YES the European media and the UN, Israel won't win those wars. Chance the demographics on the ground!

 

[georgephillip]

No Jews are allowed in Gaza, all the agreement talks are a Jew free Judea and Samaria (aka the West Bank). Most countries in the middle east, north African and western Asia (aka Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangledesh etc), Turkey are close to 100% Muslim. Noticable exceptions are increasingly hostile to religion minorities. Lebanon has ethnically cleansed away their previous Christian majority to a 15-20% minority. Syrian Christian populations are now <5%. Egyptian Christains are under constant attack and their numbers slip every day.

Yet you say the evil JJJOOOOSSS are the bad one. If an religious minority MK in any country other than Israel preached against the state the way MK Zoabia does, then she would have 'disappeared' a half minute after her speech. Israel is the only country in the Middle East with free and open elections. Arabs serve in all branches of society and throughout the government.

The Jews should utilize a practice of moving out the Palestinians and moving the Jews in East Jerusalem. The Palestinians IGNORANTLY and ARROGANTLY lay claim to the capital of Israel. The Jews should move out as many of these enemies of the state as possible in as short of time as possible!

Forget the PCness and Public Relations battle. With Muslims controlling the oil flow, YES the European media and the UN, Israel won't win those wars. Chance the demographics on the ground!

Mention that PC thingee to the Count the next time you bump into him:

"Folke Bernadotte, Count of Wisborg (in Swedish: Greve af Wisborg; 2 January 1895 – 17 September 1948) was a Swedish diplomat and nobleman noted for his negotiation of the release of about 31,000 prisoners from German concentration camps during World War II, including 450 Danish Jews from Theresienstadt released on 14 April 1945..."

"After the war, Bernadotte was unanimously chosen to be the United Nations Security Council mediator in the Arab–Israeli conflict of 1947–1948. He was assassinated in Jerusalem in 1948 by the militant Zionist group Lehi while pursuing his official duties. The decision to assassinate him had been taken by Natan Yellin-Mor, Yisrael Eldad and Yitzhak Shamir, who later became Prime Minister of Israel."

How's that for ARROGANCE?