A Perspective on Shootings That Liberals Won't Discuss

[2aguy]

Don't have to believe me, I get my info. from European law enforcement....

This story tracks gun smuggling in Europe.....lots of it....

European Police Face Being Outgunned by Jihadists WIth Assault Rifles

But although the police quickly traced the weapons source in the Paris attacks, stopping criminals and other jihadist cells in Europe from acquiring assault weapons for further attacks might not be so easy, according to police officials.


Many of the weapons circulating in Europe hail from southeastern Europe, where big military arsenals were left abandoned during the collapse of Yugoslavia and the Balkan wars of the 1990s. At least a million other weapons are believed to have been looted during an outbreak of anarchy in Albania in 1997. “There are stockpiles in the Balkans of 2 [million] to 3 million [weapons] left over from the 1990s, available for recycling,” says Donald.

French police believe rifles are on sale in French cities for between €1,000 and €1,500. Earlier this month, Philippe Capon, head of the French police union UNSA, told Bloomberg News, “The French black market for weapons has been inundated with eastern European war artillery and arms.” A French police source told TIME that the weapons from the Charlie Hebdo attack came from the Balkans.


aanother story on ease terrorists get guns....

Getting a gun legally in Europe may be hard but terrorists have little trouble - The Washington Post

Here in Denmark, handguns and semiautomatic rifles are all but banned. Hunting rifles are legally available only to those with squeaky-clean backgrounds who have passed a rigorous exam covering everything from gun safety to the mating habits of Denmark’s wildlife.

“There’s a book about 1,000 pages thick,” said Tonni Rigby, one of only two licensed firearms dealers in Copenhagen. “You have to know all of it.”


But if you want an illicit assault rifle, such as the one used by a 22-year-old to rake a Copenhagen cafe with 28 bullets on Saturday, all it takes are a few connections and some cash.


“It’s very easy to get such a weapon,” said Hans Jorgen Bonnichsen, a former operations director for the Danish security service PET. “It’s not only a problem for Denmark. It’s a problem for all of Europe.”

******************

In the case of the Paris attackers, they were able to obtain an entire arsenal: AK-47 assault rifles, pistols, a Skorpion submachine gun and even a rocket-propelled-grenade launcher. All of it was purchased in Brussels for about $5,000, according to Belgian media reports.

The availability of such weapons in the heart of Western Europe isn’t new. The flood of high-powered weaponry began with the dissolution of the Soviet Union and continued through the 1990s as war raged across the Balkans. Many of the weapons from those periods are still circulating. They have lately been supplemented by an influx from the turmoil in North Africa, with weapons smuggled on ships across the Mediterranean.

It's not the info I have a problem with. It's the interpretation of this info I have a problem with.

I know there are guns in the EU. I know some criminals have guns. I know, if you have the money, it's not difficult to get one.

Here are some questions. How much does it cost a criminals to get an illegal gun in the US? How much does it cost to get one in the EU?

You're using the term "easy" in regards to getting a gun. How easy is it for a US criminal and how easy for an EU criminal to get a gun? We know they can get guns.

You have some estimates at €1,000. Is this cheap? Is this something that someone might be willing to risk on a small job, like holding up a 7/11 or something? Probably not. How much would the same thing cost in the EU?

This is where I'm having a problem. Not the fact that there are guns, but with the statement that it's "easy" to get a gun, and also that it's cost efficient to get a gun and use it as they are used in the US.

My argument is that guns costs more in Europe, criminals are less likely to use them on small jobs, less likely to use them in petty disputes, and also that many criminals would not bother to get a gun because the cost just isn't worth it, whereas in the US they're considered almost essential because they really are easy to get, they're cost effective, everyone has one so you need one to be considered a decent criminal, and this is all because the US has a massive amount of guns in the country.

From another thread on gun control...this is why you are wrong. It is not "first time criminals," or law abiding citizens owning and carrying guns for self defense that causes our high gun murder rate in these democrat controlled shooting galleries called Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore, New York, Oakland....

This is why we have so much gun crime......


Gangs and Politicians in Chicago An Unholy Alliance Chicago magazine January 2012

Most alarming, both law enforcement and gang sources say, is that some politicians ignore the gangs’ criminal activities. Some go so far as to protect gangs from the police, tipping them off to impending raids or to surveillance activities—in effect, creating safe havens in their political districts. And often they chafe at backing tough measures to stem gang activities, advocating instead for superficial solutions that may garner good press but have little impact.

The paradox is that Chicago’s struggle to combat street gangs is being undermined by its own elected officials. And the alliances between lawmakers and lawbreakers raise a troubling question: Who actually rules the neighborhoods—our public servants or the gangs?

 

[M14 Shooter]

"Gun control" has nothing to do with Liberals.

No, of course not. That's why they're always the ones who are calling for it. It's just a red herring.

What constitutes 'gun control' – the Supreme Court has held that all manner of regulatory policies comport with the Second Amendment

That's not what they said,
You know it.
You are, therefore, lying.

 

[2aguy]

"Gun control" has nothing to do with Liberals.

No, of course not. That's why they're always the ones who are calling for it. It's just a red herring.

What constitutes 'gun control' – the Supreme Court has held that all manner of regulatory policies comport with the Second Amendment

That's not what they said,
You know it.
You are, therefore, lying.

You can tell he is lying because is posting here on U.S. message.....much like when his lips start to move....

 

[2aguy]

Don't have to believe me, I get my info. from European law enforcement....

This story tracks gun smuggling in Europe.....lots of it....

European Police Face Being Outgunned by Jihadists WIth Assault Rifles

But although the police quickly traced the weapons source in the Paris attacks, stopping criminals and other jihadist cells in Europe from acquiring assault weapons for further attacks might not be so easy, according to police officials.


Many of the weapons circulating in Europe hail from southeastern Europe, where big military arsenals were left abandoned during the collapse of Yugoslavia and the Balkan wars of the 1990s. At least a million other weapons are believed to have been looted during an outbreak of anarchy in Albania in 1997. “There are stockpiles in the Balkans of 2 [million] to 3 million [weapons] left over from the 1990s, available for recycling,” says Donald.

French police believe rifles are on sale in French cities for between €1,000 and €1,500. Earlier this month, Philippe Capon, head of the French police union UNSA, told Bloomberg News, “The French black market for weapons has been inundated with eastern European war artillery and arms.” A French police source told TIME that the weapons from the Charlie Hebdo attack came from the Balkans.


aanother story on ease terrorists get guns....

Getting a gun legally in Europe may be hard but terrorists have little trouble - The Washington Post

Here in Denmark, handguns and semiautomatic rifles are all but banned. Hunting rifles are legally available only to those with squeaky-clean backgrounds who have passed a rigorous exam covering everything from gun safety to the mating habits of Denmark’s wildlife.

“There’s a book about 1,000 pages thick,” said Tonni Rigby, one of only two licensed firearms dealers in Copenhagen. “You have to know all of it.”


But if you want an illicit assault rifle, such as the one used by a 22-year-old to rake a Copenhagen cafe with 28 bullets on Saturday, all it takes are a few connections and some cash.


“It’s very easy to get such a weapon,” said Hans Jorgen Bonnichsen, a former operations director for the Danish security service PET. “It’s not only a problem for Denmark. It’s a problem for all of Europe.”

******************

In the case of the Paris attackers, they were able to obtain an entire arsenal: AK-47 assault rifles, pistols, a Skorpion submachine gun and even a rocket-propelled-grenade launcher. All of it was purchased in Brussels for about $5,000, according to Belgian media reports.

The availability of such weapons in the heart of Western Europe isn’t new. The flood of high-powered weaponry began with the dissolution of the Soviet Union and continued through the 1990s as war raged across the Balkans. Many of the weapons from those periods are still circulating. They have lately been supplemented by an influx from the turmoil in North Africa, with weapons smuggled on ships across the Mediterranean.

It's not the info I have a problem with. It's the interpretation of this info I have a problem with.

I know there are guns in the EU. I know some criminals have guns. I know, if you have the money, it's not difficult to get one.

Here are some questions. How much does it cost a criminals to get an illegal gun in the US? How much does it cost to get one in the EU?

You're using the term "easy" in regards to getting a gun. How easy is it for a US criminal and how easy for an EU criminal to get a gun? We know they can get guns.

You have some estimates at €1,000. Is this cheap? Is this something that someone might be willing to risk on a small job, like holding up a 7/11 or something? Probably not. How much would the same thing cost in the EU?

This is where I'm having a problem. Not the fact that there are guns, but with the statement that it's "easy" to get a gun, and also that it's cost efficient to get a gun and use it as they are used in the US.

My argument is that guns costs more in Europe, criminals are less likely to use them on small jobs, less likely to use them in petty disputes, and also that many criminals would not bother to get a gun because the cost just isn't worth it, whereas in the US they're considered almost essential because they really are easy to get, they're cost effective, everyone has one so you need one to be considered a decent criminal, and this is all because the US has a massive amount of guns in the country.

Again, this is why we have gun crime.....

Most alarming, both law enforcement and gang sources say, is that some politicians ignore the gangs’ criminal activities. Some go so far as to protect gangs from the police, tipping them off to impending raids or to surveillance activities—in effect, creating safe havens in their political districts. And often they chafe at backing tough measures to stem gang activities, advocating instead for superficial solutions that may garner good press but have little impact.

Gun crime is not because of normal people who own and carry guns to protect themselves from criminals....the protection afforded to these monsters by the democrat politicians allows them to murder and keep murdering without fear of consequences......that is the gun murder problem...not "first crimes" and with power and money like this...they can and do get whatever guns they want.....

 

[frigidweirdo]

You have just destroyed you argument.......criminals get guns when they want or need them.....law abiding citizens in Europe cannot get guns when they are banned, like fully automatice weapons, grenades, pistols, and rocket propelled grenades.


The Charlie Hebdo killers spent 5,000 American dollars for their weapons......I don't think you could get all the weapons they had for 5,000 dollars in the U.S.


Sorry, our crime in the U.S. is a majority of gang and drug related crime, which means they have plenty of cash to get illegal guns. And wether or not criminals of any kind can get guns is no reason to keep law abiding citizens, who do not break the law, pay the taxes for the police and military from owning guns.


In fact studies show that each year up to 2 million times American citizens use guns to stop or prevent violent criminal attack and save lives, and the other studies I posted show that guns allow women to stop violent rapes. So your own point on easy gun access in Europe, and the fact that law abiding citizens do not use guns to commit crimes shows your arguments are wrong. The benefits of Armed citizens far out weighs the negatives........and then you run into the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, which is why Europe was so easily disarmed.........and why over 12 million innocent people were sent to death camps by the various governments in Europe.

No, I haven't destroyed my own argument. Please, remember I'm not one of these partisan idiots who always takes a certain line and beats it beyond its death no matter whether they think (or not in many cases) it's right or not.


My argument isn't that criminals don't get guns in Europe, never has been. Some criminals do get guns in Europe.


What I'm looking at is why the US murder rate was 4.7 when the UK's murder rate was 1.0 and other European countries ranged between 0.8 and 1.0 (except Norway which may have been a result of that neo-Nazi guy, I'm not sure).
If criminals get guns in Europe and criminals get guns in the US, then there must be something different. This is where the argument has reached right now.


The Charlie Hebdo killers MAY have got their guns for $5,000. Maybe they didn't. Maybe they got their guns so cheaply because they were part of an international organisation, or did deals with others. How much would it have cost a normal criminal who wanted those things? Questions unanswered right now. I don't know and I don't think you know. So we'll just have to leave it at the side.


Mail order guns British gangsters buying illegal weapons from US RT UK


Some guns come via mail order from the US. Something you'd think would be easy to stop.


Firearms cheap easy to get and on a street near you UK news The Guardian


Here we have claims of £150 for a gun. A 9mm for £1500 and a glock for perhaps £2000.


GLOCK FACTORY NEW 17 GEN 4 FRAME COMPLETE Semi Auto Pistols at GunBroker.com


Here's a US site. A glock for $165, or £106. So, you're looking at £106 in the US, potentially, and £1500 in the UK.


Doubletap 9mm Pocket Pistol Alum Non-Ported NIB Other Pistols at GunBroker.com


I got one with three days left for $106, not the cheapest but I'd assume the price might go up a bit. However, again, there's a big difference in price. Many guns in the UK, ones that people would use, are going to go for a lot more. "Cheap" in Europe is $3000. Is that cheap in the US? I wouldn't know, I've never bought a gun, but I'm going to say no. Would you pay $3000 for a gun you could get for $165 cheapo, or maybe $500 good gun?


Yes, a lot of crime in the US is drug and gang related. In London drug and gang related crime has been on the increase. However gang related crime is something that you can be proactive about. You stop kids being easy targets for gangs with education and opportunities.


Crime in London - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


The homicide rate was 1.1 in 2012, 2.2 in 2006. They halved it in the space of 6 years by actually being proactive about these things. The US inner city crime rates are dropping but nowhere near these levels. Inner city education was proactively looked at to deal with these problems and they've managed to get some success. In the US does it happen? Not very often. When it does it's about individuals or small groups and if you're lucky citywide, but never nationwide with all states with big cities jumping on board to make something happen.


I know the GDU figures. They are estimates. However, the number of gun uses doesn't seem to reduce the amount of murders. Is it better that you have people defending themselves with guns, but then you get many more murders, or is it better that people live and maybe they're unable to fight back?


How many GDUs are against other people WITH GUNS in the first place?

Just coming here and saying "there are maybe 2 million GDUs" doesn't mean much to me when this potentially reduces crime in the US that only exists because of A) inactivity in deal with problems and B) plenty of guns in society in the first place.

 

[bodecea]

You liberals all missed the point, as usual. You want more laws that will do nothing. Mass shootings are very rare with less than 600 people killed over a 30 year period.

West did not write the article. It was from another source that he linked to and I don't give a shit what you think of any source. If it makes sense, I'll go with it.

Grow up. I should have known I'd get a clown pic from the clown poster who can't put an intelligent sentence together or actually engage in a discussion.

Nope. I don't want more laws. Stop trying to speak for me. You never get it right when you try.

 

[frigidweirdo]

This is the reason we have so much gun crime in these inner cities....the judicial system does not prosecute these criminals in a serious way, unlike their European counter parts...that is what needs to change, not gun laws, which we already have more than enough of to take care of these criminals....

The 7 gang members in this shooting.....all of them career criminals, some awaiting trial for previous murder charges, and the others out after serving time for previous weapons violations..

Out on Bond on Murder Rap Man Charged in Back of the Yards Shooting of 13 - Back of the Yards - DNAinfo.com Chicago

COOK COUNTY CRIMINAL COURTHOUSE — A seventh man has been charged in connection with a September shooting in Cornell Square Park that wounded 13, including a 3-year-old boy.


Quinton Humphries, an alleged getaway driver, was out on bond in a pending murder case when he drove a group of fellow gangbangers bent on revenge to the crowded Cornell Square Park on Sept. 19, authorities said.


There, police said, they unleashed a hail of bullets on the people gathered, wounding 13 — including 3-year-old Devonte Howard — and drew a national spotlight on the issue of Chicago gun violence.


Days after the shooting, four of the suspects were arrested, including Bryon Champ, a 21-year-old member of the Black P Stone Nation gang accused of rounding up friends to take revenge for a bullet that grazed him earlier that day.




Charged with three counts of attempted first-degree murder and three counts of aggravated battery with a firearm, Humphries, 20, was ordered held without bail on Wednesday. Humphries was on the street after being accused of another murder in July, and posting 10 percent of his $500,000 bail.


Little more than three months earlier he was brought before another Cook County judge on murder charges after prosecutors said he and a second man flashed gang signs before fatally shooting Shavonte Howard.


Howard, of the 5300 block of South Hoyne Avenue, was shot in the head about noon on July 4 in the 5600 block of South Western Avenue, police said.


Champ, the "main player" in the Cornell Square Park shooting, had been convicted of gun possession as a felon last year, Chicago Police Supt. Garry McCarthy said at a news conference.


A judge sent Champ to boot camp, and he was released when he completed the program.


“If Bryon Champ is not on the street — as he shouldn’t have been — this incident likely does not occur," said McCarthy, who has advocated stricter sentencing for gun crimes. “He received boot camp for that gun crime and was back out on the streets to be a part of this senseless shooting."


A few days after the initial arrests, a fifth man, David Logan, 22, was arrested in connection with the incident.


Earlier this month, Darren Curtis, 28, was charged in the incident as well.

That's hilarious.

The US has MORE people in prison than any country in the world bar one. The sentences for crimes are higher, in the UK many people complain that sentences just aren't high enough.

And yet you're telling me that the US doesn't prosecute enough.

You have Louisiana, read the webpage below for their private right wing wet dream of a prison system. They simply can't get enough people into their prisons for their own liking. This is Louisiana with a murder rate of 10.8 (up from 10.0 in 2005), a rape rate of 26.9, violent crime rate of 510.4 compared to the US average of 4.5 for murder (so, only more than double), a rape rate of 25.2 (okay, only just higher, but higher than the average), and a violent crime rate of 367.9, which means it's a little less than double.

Louisiana is the world s prison capital NOLA.com

So, apparently Louisiana where they can't wait to put people into prisons, and can't wait to get them back again, should have lower crime because, apparently, they're Justice system is taking things quite seriously.

And a murder map to compare with the number of people in prisons. Louisiana has a lot of prisoners, a lot of murder, doesn't all correlate exactly, but it shows the message.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Again, this is why we have gun crime.....

Most alarming, both law enforcement and gang sources say, is that some politicians ignore the gangs’ criminal activities. Some go so far as to protect gangs from the police, tipping them off to impending raids or to surveillance activities—in effect, creating safe havens in their political districts. And often they chafe at backing tough measures to stem gang activities, advocating instead for superficial solutions that may garner good press but have little impact.

Gun crime is not because of normal people who own and carry guns to protect themselves from criminals....the protection afforded to these monsters by the democrat politicians allows them to murder and keep murdering without fear of consequences......that is the gun murder problem...not "first crimes" and with power and money like this...they can and do get whatever guns they want.....

Then again my argument hasn't been that it's normal people who own guns to protect themselves' fault. My argument has been that the large number of guns in society makes it easier to get guns. Similar, but different.

HOWEVER, these "normal people" (what is a normal person?) who own and carry guns to protect themselves from "criminals" (and possibly non-criminals too), are people who vote for Democrats or Republicans, in the main. People who vote for the same old same old nonsense that didn't solve the problems before, and isn't solving the problems now.

Poor education for poor inner city kids is exacerbated by people voting for political parties who seem to have little to no interest in solving this situation. Poor kids in inner city areas ending up in gangs do so with these politicians voted in by these "normal people" and fart around telling everyone that they're "tough on crime" and all that nonsense so that they don't have to do anything about the situation, and the people don't demand they do anything about this situation.

What I'm saying is, the problems in the US are endemic. They're so ingrained in the psyche of the people, especially the middle to upper class, and the poverty levels are so ingrained in certain parts of the country, that no one is actually talking about the stuff to make it change.

You only need look on a forum like this.

How many threads are about gay marriage, about Donald Trump's comments about all Mexicans being rapists, Liberals being thick stupid scum, Conservatives being thick stupid scum, whether anyone would bang Hilary, or they're prefer Donald, or whatever. Most of the threads on here don't go anywhere near thinking about how to solve inner city problems. It's just not something the political elite want, it's not something those who pay the political elite to do their bidding want either. They kind of like crime, they like poverty, just like they like wars in the Middle East. It makes them MONEY!>

 

[2aguy]

Again, this is why we have gun crime.....

Most alarming, both law enforcement and gang sources say, is that some politicians ignore the gangs’ criminal activities. Some go so far as to protect gangs from the police, tipping them off to impending raids or to surveillance activities—in effect, creating safe havens in their political districts. And often they chafe at backing tough measures to stem gang activities, advocating instead for superficial solutions that may garner good press but have little impact.

Gun crime is not because of normal people who own and carry guns to protect themselves from criminals....the protection afforded to these monsters by the democrat politicians allows them to murder and keep murdering without fear of consequences......that is the gun murder problem...not "first crimes" and with power and money like this...they can and do get whatever guns they want.....

Then again my argument hasn't been that it's normal people who own guns to protect themselves' fault. My argument has been that the large number of guns in society makes it easier to get guns. Similar, but different.

HOWEVER, these "normal people" (what is a normal person?) who own and carry guns to protect themselves from "criminals" (and possibly non-criminals too), are people who vote for Democrats or Republicans, in the main. People who vote for the same old same old nonsense that didn't solve the problems before, and isn't solving the problems now.

Poor education for poor inner city kids is exacerbated by people voting for political parties who seem to have little to no interest in solving this situation. Poor kids in inner city areas ending up in gangs do so with these politicians voted in by these "normal people" and fart around telling everyone that they're "tough on crime" and all that nonsense so that they don't have to do anything about the situation, and the people don't demand they do anything about this situation.

What I'm saying is, the problems in the US are endemic. They're so ingrained in the psyche of the people, especially the middle to upper class, and the poverty levels are so ingrained in certain parts of the country, that no one is actually talking about the stuff to make it change.

You only need look on a forum like this.

How many threads are about gay marriage, about Donald Trump's comments about all Mexicans being rapists, Liberals being thick stupid scum, Conservatives being thick stupid scum, whether anyone would bang Hilary, or they're prefer Donald, or whatever. Most of the threads on here don't go anywhere near thinking about how to solve inner city problems. It's just not something the political elite want, it's not something those who pay the political elite to do their bidding want either. They kind of like crime, they like poverty, just like they like wars in the Middle East. It makes them MONEY!>

sorry...solving inner city problems is easy...fix the schools, change the welfare system, hire more police, arrest and lock up the violent career criminals for a long time to keep them from terrorizing these neighborhoods......and each step in the process you have democrats blocking them...

 

[2aguy]

This is the reason we have so much gun crime in these inner cities....the judicial system does not prosecute these criminals in a serious way, unlike their European counter parts...that is what needs to change, not gun laws, which we already have more than enough of to take care of these criminals....

The 7 gang members in this shooting.....all of them career criminals, some awaiting trial for previous murder charges, and the others out after serving time for previous weapons violations..

Out on Bond on Murder Rap Man Charged in Back of the Yards Shooting of 13 - Back of the Yards - DNAinfo.com Chicago

COOK COUNTY CRIMINAL COURTHOUSE — A seventh man has been charged in connection with a September shooting in Cornell Square Park that wounded 13, including a 3-year-old boy.


Quinton Humphries, an alleged getaway driver, was out on bond in a pending murder case when he drove a group of fellow gangbangers bent on revenge to the crowded Cornell Square Park on Sept. 19, authorities said.


There, police said, they unleashed a hail of bullets on the people gathered, wounding 13 — including 3-year-old Devonte Howard — and drew a national spotlight on the issue of Chicago gun violence.


Days after the shooting, four of the suspects were arrested, including Bryon Champ, a 21-year-old member of the Black P Stone Nation gang accused of rounding up friends to take revenge for a bullet that grazed him earlier that day.




Charged with three counts of attempted first-degree murder and three counts of aggravated battery with a firearm, Humphries, 20, was ordered held without bail on Wednesday. Humphries was on the street after being accused of another murder in July, and posting 10 percent of his $500,000 bail.


Little more than three months earlier he was brought before another Cook County judge on murder charges after prosecutors said he and a second man flashed gang signs before fatally shooting Shavonte Howard.


Howard, of the 5300 block of South Hoyne Avenue, was shot in the head about noon on July 4 in the 5600 block of South Western Avenue, police said.


Champ, the "main player" in the Cornell Square Park shooting, had been convicted of gun possession as a felon last year, Chicago Police Supt. Garry McCarthy said at a news conference.


A judge sent Champ to boot camp, and he was released when he completed the program.


“If Bryon Champ is not on the street — as he shouldn’t have been — this incident likely does not occur," said McCarthy, who has advocated stricter sentencing for gun crimes. “He received boot camp for that gun crime and was back out on the streets to be a part of this senseless shooting."


A few days after the initial arrests, a fifth man, David Logan, 22, was arrested in connection with the incident.


Earlier this month, Darren Curtis, 28, was charged in the incident as well.

That's hilarious.

The US has MORE people in prison than any country in the world bar one. The sentences for crimes are higher, in the UK many people complain that sentences just aren't high enough.

And yet you're telling me that the US doesn't prosecute enough.

You have Louisiana, read the webpage below for their private right wing wet dream of a prison system. They simply can't get enough people into their prisons for their own liking. This is Louisiana with a murder rate of 10.8 (up from 10.0 in 2005), a rape rate of 26.9, violent crime rate of 510.4 compared to the US average of 4.5 for murder (so, only more than double), a rape rate of 25.2 (okay, only just higher, but higher than the average), and a violent crime rate of 367.9, which means it's a little less than double.

Louisiana is the world s prison capital NOLA.com

So, apparently Louisiana where they can't wait to put people into prisons, and can't wait to get them back again, should have lower crime because, apparently, they're Justice system is taking things quite seriously.

And a murder map to compare with the number of people in prisons. Louisiana has a lot of prisoners, a lot of murder, doesn't all correlate exactly, but it shows the message.

sorry, you are wrong...they need to lock up violent criminals for longer periods...drug users aren't the problem so they aren't locking up the right people long enough...Chicago is a classic example....the aldermen are in cahoots with the gangs, they lean on police to not arrest the gang members, the gangs tell their pet politicians to vote against more police......so guns aren't the problem. Criminals are the problem.

 

[2aguy]

This is the reason we have so much gun crime in these inner cities....the judicial system does not prosecute these criminals in a serious way, unlike their European counter parts...that is what needs to change, not gun laws, which we already have more than enough of to take care of these criminals....

The 7 gang members in this shooting.....all of them career criminals, some awaiting trial for previous murder charges, and the others out after serving time for previous weapons violations..

Out on Bond on Murder Rap Man Charged in Back of the Yards Shooting of 13 - Back of the Yards - DNAinfo.com Chicago

COOK COUNTY CRIMINAL COURTHOUSE — A seventh man has been charged in connection with a September shooting in Cornell Square Park that wounded 13, including a 3-year-old boy.


Quinton Humphries, an alleged getaway driver, was out on bond in a pending murder case when he drove a group of fellow gangbangers bent on revenge to the crowded Cornell Square Park on Sept. 19, authorities said.


There, police said, they unleashed a hail of bullets on the people gathered, wounding 13 — including 3-year-old Devonte Howard — and drew a national spotlight on the issue of Chicago gun violence.


Days after the shooting, four of the suspects were arrested, including Bryon Champ, a 21-year-old member of the Black P Stone Nation gang accused of rounding up friends to take revenge for a bullet that grazed him earlier that day.




Charged with three counts of attempted first-degree murder and three counts of aggravated battery with a firearm, Humphries, 20, was ordered held without bail on Wednesday. Humphries was on the street after being accused of another murder in July, and posting 10 percent of his $500,000 bail.


Little more than three months earlier he was brought before another Cook County judge on murder charges after prosecutors said he and a second man flashed gang signs before fatally shooting Shavonte Howard.


Howard, of the 5300 block of South Hoyne Avenue, was shot in the head about noon on July 4 in the 5600 block of South Western Avenue, police said.


Champ, the "main player" in the Cornell Square Park shooting, had been convicted of gun possession as a felon last year, Chicago Police Supt. Garry McCarthy said at a news conference.


A judge sent Champ to boot camp, and he was released when he completed the program.


“If Bryon Champ is not on the street — as he shouldn’t have been — this incident likely does not occur," said McCarthy, who has advocated stricter sentencing for gun crimes. “He received boot camp for that gun crime and was back out on the streets to be a part of this senseless shooting."


A few days after the initial arrests, a fifth man, David Logan, 22, was arrested in connection with the incident.


Earlier this month, Darren Curtis, 28, was charged in the incident as well.

That's hilarious.

The US has MORE people in prison than any country in the world bar one. The sentences for crimes are higher, in the UK many people complain that sentences just aren't high enough.

And yet you're telling me that the US doesn't prosecute enough.

You have Louisiana, read the webpage below for their private right wing wet dream of a prison system. They simply can't get enough people into their prisons for their own liking. This is Louisiana with a murder rate of 10.8 (up from 10.0 in 2005), a rape rate of 26.9, violent crime rate of 510.4 compared to the US average of 4.5 for murder (so, only more than double), a rape rate of 25.2 (okay, only just higher, but higher than the average), and a violent crime rate of 367.9, which means it's a little less than double.

Louisiana is the world s prison capital NOLA.com

So, apparently Louisiana where they can't wait to put people into prisons, and can't wait to get them back again, should have lower crime because, apparently, they're Justice system is taking things quite seriously.

And a murder map to compare with the number of people in prisons. Louisiana has a lot of prisoners, a lot of murder, doesn't all correlate exactly, but it shows the message.

the big cities in New Orleans are run by democrats....their law enforcement policies keep crime alive.....of those democrat run cities are like Chicago, the local politicians protect the gangs and other criminals....what they need are more Guilianis, to go in and clean up the crime....not nurture it for political gain........

A
Gain, law abiding people owning and carrying guns are not the problem....the gun murder rate is not from normal people "losing it" one day....it comes from law enforcement policies that allow criminals, both organized and random to run rampant...just like the gangs in Chicago......

If you focus on law abiding citizens, which all you gun grabbers do, you won't cut the murder rate in these democrat controlled inner cities.....


and keep in mind......gun murder is going down as more Americans buy and own guns........it is safe in 90% of the country........fun murder is a problem in small geographic areas in our inner cities.....because of gangs and other criminals......

 

[2aguy]

You have just destroyed you argument.......criminals get guns when they want or need them.....law abiding citizens in Europe cannot get guns when they are banned, like fully automatice weapons, grenades, pistols, and rocket propelled grenades.


The Charlie Hebdo killers spent 5,000 American dollars for their weapons......I don't think you could get all the weapons they had for 5,000 dollars in the U.S.


Sorry, our crime in the U.S. is a majority of gang and drug related crime, which means they have plenty of cash to get illegal guns. And wether or not criminals of any kind can get guns is no reason to keep law abiding citizens, who do not break the law, pay the taxes for the police and military from owning guns.


In fact studies show that each year up to 2 million times American citizens use guns to stop or prevent violent criminal attack and save lives, and the other studies I posted show that guns allow women to stop violent rapes. So your own point on easy gun access in Europe, and the fact that law abiding citizens do not use guns to commit crimes shows your arguments are wrong. The benefits of Armed citizens far out weighs the negatives........and then you run into the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, which is why Europe was so easily disarmed.........and why over 12 million innocent people were sent to death camps by the various governments in Europe.

No, I haven't destroyed my own argument. Please, remember I'm not one of these partisan idiots who always takes a certain line and beats it beyond its death no matter whether they think (or not in many cases) it's right or not.


My argument isn't that criminals don't get guns in Europe, never has been. Some criminals do get guns in Europe.


What I'm looking at is why the US murder rate was 4.7 when the UK's murder rate was 1.0 and other European countries ranged between 0.8 and 1.0 (except Norway which may have been a result of that neo-Nazi guy, I'm not sure).
If criminals get guns in Europe and criminals get guns in the US, then there must be something different. This is where the argument has reached right now.


The Charlie Hebdo killers MAY have got their guns for $5,000. Maybe they didn't. Maybe they got their guns so cheaply because they were part of an international organisation, or did deals with others. How much would it have cost a normal criminal who wanted those things? Questions unanswered right now. I don't know and I don't think you know. So we'll just have to leave it at the side.


Mail order guns British gangsters buying illegal weapons from US RT UK


Some guns come via mail order from the US. Something you'd think would be easy to stop.


Firearms cheap easy to get and on a street near you UK news The Guardian


Here we have claims of £150 for a gun. A 9mm for £1500 and a glock for perhaps £2000.


GLOCK FACTORY NEW 17 GEN 4 FRAME COMPLETE Semi Auto Pistols at GunBroker.com


Here's a US site. A glock for $165, or £106. So, you're looking at £106 in the US, potentially, and £1500 in the UK.


Doubletap 9mm Pocket Pistol Alum Non-Ported NIB Other Pistols at GunBroker.com


I got one with three days left for $106, not the cheapest but I'd assume the price might go up a bit. However, again, there's a big difference in price. Many guns in the UK, ones that people would use, are going to go for a lot more. "Cheap" in Europe is $3000. Is that cheap in the US? I wouldn't know, I've never bought a gun, but I'm going to say no. Would you pay $3000 for a gun you could get for $165 cheapo, or maybe $500 good gun?


Yes, a lot of crime in the US is drug and gang related. In London drug and gang related crime has been on the increase. However gang related crime is something that you can be proactive about. You stop kids being easy targets for gangs with education and opportunities.


Crime in London - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


The homicide rate was 1.1 in 2012, 2.2 in 2006. They halved it in the space of 6 years by actually being proactive about these things. The US inner city crime rates are dropping but nowhere near these levels. Inner city education was proactively looked at to deal with these problems and they've managed to get some success. In the US does it happen? Not very often. When it does it's about individuals or small groups and if you're lucky citywide, but never nationwide with all states with big cities jumping on board to make something happen.


I know the GDU figures. They are estimates. However, the number of gun uses doesn't seem to reduce the amount of murders. Is it better that you have people defending themselves with guns, but then you get many more murders, or is it better that people live and maybe they're unable to fight back?


How many GDUs are against other people WITH GUNS in the first place?

Just coming here and saying "there are maybe 2 million GDUs" doesn't mean much to me when this potentially reduces crime in the US that only exists because of A) inactivity in deal with problems and B) plenty of guns in society in the first place.

Yes...the gun murder rate is going down, not up and over 12.8 million people now carry guns for self defense and more Americans own guns than ever before so you are wrong..........the CDC and the FBI show that the gun murder rate is going down.....but in cities like Baltimore and Chicago, and D.C. That have strict gun control....the murder rate is going up...

Detroit....the murder rate is going down...part of the reason...the police chief actively supports law abiding citizens owning and carrying guns...

 

[frigidweirdo]

sorry...solving inner city problems is easy...fix the schools, change the welfare system, hire more police, arrest and lock up the violent career criminals for a long time to keep them from terrorizing these neighborhoods......and each step in the process you have democrats blocking them...

Easy? So easy hardly anyone's done it in the big cities in the US.

So, you're blaming the democrats. Jeez, after talking to you I thought that you might be open to ideas and things, but then you fall back to the same old "blame of the main parties for everything."

Fine, you want to do that, PROVE IT. Prove the Democrats are blocking, as you put it, "everything".

 

[frigidweirdo]

sorry, you are wrong...they need to lock up violent criminals for longer periods...drug users aren't the problem so they aren't locking up the right people long enough...Chicago is a classic example....the aldermen are in cahoots with the gangs, they lean on police to not arrest the gang members, the gangs tell their pet politicians to vote against more police......so guns aren't the problem. Criminals are the problem.

You keep saying I'm wrong, yet I keep showing you the evidence that is contrary to this, and you keep ignoring the evidence I keep showing you.

You say criminals are the problem. Wow, easy solution.

So how do you solve the problem of criminals? Let me guess. Lock them up. Oh, and then I just proved that just locking people up doesn't WORK. Yet you've ignored this. Do we really have to go around in circles like this?

 

[frigidweirdo]

the big cities in New Orleans are run by democrats....their law enforcement policies keep crime alive.....of those democrat run cities are like Chicago, the local politicians protect the gangs and other criminals....what they need are more Guilianis, to go in and clean up the crime....not nurture it for political gain........

A
Gain, law abiding people owning and carrying guns are not the problem....the gun murder rate is not from normal people "losing it" one day....it comes from law enforcement policies that allow criminals, both organized and random to run rampant...just like the gangs in Chicago......

If you focus on law abiding citizens, which all you gun grabbers do, you won't cut the murder rate in these democrat controlled inner cities.....


and keep in mind......gun murder is going down as more Americans buy and own guns........it is safe in 90% of the country........fun murder is a problem in small geographic areas in our inner cities.....because of gangs and other criminals......

Oh, it's all so simple now. So simple a simple minded right wing person who gets taken in by the party and its advertising (I don't mean all Republicans in case you want to jump on me, I mean simple minded right wing people, ie, that's what I said.)

The problem is I keep showing you stuff and you keep ignoring it, so..... what do I bother saying stuff if you're going to do that?

 

[2aguy]

sorry, you are wrong...they need to lock up violent criminals for longer periods...drug users aren't the problem so they aren't locking up the right people long enough...Chicago is a classic example....the aldermen are in cahoots with the gangs, they lean on police to not arrest the gang members, the gangs tell their pet politicians to vote against more police......so guns aren't the problem. Criminals are the problem.

You keep saying I'm wrong, yet I keep showing you the evidence that is contrary to this, and you keep ignoring the evidence I keep showing you.

You say criminals are the problem. Wow, easy solution.

So how do you solve the problem of criminals? Let me guess. Lock them up. Oh, and then I just proved that just locking people up doesn't WORK. Yet you've ignored this. Do we really have to go around in circles like this?

they aren't locking up violent offenders.......I have shown you how they are letting them go in Chicago because the gangs have politicians in their pocket...the police have a hands off policy or they get pounded by the local politicians.....I just posted about a man stabbed to death on the D.C. metro....his attacker was arrested 2 days before the attack on another violent robbery charge, the prosecutor dropped it to a midemeanor and he was out that day....2 days later he stabbed the man to death.....

If you want to stop violent crime of all kinds...you have to lock up violent, dangerous criminals....if you don't do that, and instead make it harder for non criminal, non violent people who don't commit crimes with guns to get guns....then you are doing nothing to stop violent crime...nothing....and none of your dumb photos supports any of that ......

 

[Pogo]

This is the reason we have so much gun crime in these inner cities....the judicial system does not prosecute these criminals in a serious way, unlike their European counter parts...that is what needs to change, not gun laws, which we already have more than enough of to take care of these criminals....

The 7 gang members in this shooting.....all of them career criminals, some awaiting trial for previous murder charges, and the others out after serving time for previous weapons violations..

Out on Bond on Murder Rap Man Charged in Back of the Yards Shooting of 13 - Back of the Yards - DNAinfo.com Chicago

COOK COUNTY CRIMINAL COURTHOUSE — A seventh man has been charged in connection with a September shooting in Cornell Square Park that wounded 13, including a 3-year-old boy.


Quinton Humphries, an alleged getaway driver, was out on bond in a pending murder case when he drove a group of fellow gangbangers bent on revenge to the crowded Cornell Square Park on Sept. 19, authorities said.


There, police said, they unleashed a hail of bullets on the people gathered, wounding 13 — including 3-year-old Devonte Howard — and drew a national spotlight on the issue of Chicago gun violence.


Days after the shooting, four of the suspects were arrested, including Bryon Champ, a 21-year-old member of the Black P Stone Nation gang accused of rounding up friends to take revenge for a bullet that grazed him earlier that day.




Charged with three counts of attempted first-degree murder and three counts of aggravated battery with a firearm, Humphries, 20, was ordered held without bail on Wednesday. Humphries was on the street after being accused of another murder in July, and posting 10 percent of his $500,000 bail.


Little more than three months earlier he was brought before another Cook County judge on murder charges after prosecutors said he and a second man flashed gang signs before fatally shooting Shavonte Howard.


Howard, of the 5300 block of South Hoyne Avenue, was shot in the head about noon on July 4 in the 5600 block of South Western Avenue, police said.


Champ, the "main player" in the Cornell Square Park shooting, had been convicted of gun possession as a felon last year, Chicago Police Supt. Garry McCarthy said at a news conference.


A judge sent Champ to boot camp, and he was released when he completed the program.


“If Bryon Champ is not on the street — as he shouldn’t have been — this incident likely does not occur," said McCarthy, who has advocated stricter sentencing for gun crimes. “He received boot camp for that gun crime and was back out on the streets to be a part of this senseless shooting."


A few days after the initial arrests, a fifth man, David Logan, 22, was arrested in connection with the incident.


Earlier this month, Darren Curtis, 28, was charged in the incident as well.

That's hilarious.

The US has MORE people in prison than any country in the world bar one. The sentences for crimes are higher, in the UK many people complain that sentences just aren't high enough.

And yet you're telling me that the US doesn't prosecute enough.

You have Louisiana, read the webpage below for their private right wing wet dream of a prison system. They simply can't get enough people into their prisons for their own liking. This is Louisiana with a murder rate of 10.8 (up from 10.0 in 2005), a rape rate of 26.9, violent crime rate of 510.4 compared to the US average of 4.5 for murder (so, only more than double), a rape rate of 25.2 (okay, only just higher, but higher than the average), and a violent crime rate of 367.9, which means it's a little less than double.

Louisiana is the world s prison capital NOLA.com

So, apparently Louisiana where they can't wait to put people into prisons, and can't wait to get them back again, should have lower crime because, apparently, they're Justice system is taking things quite seriously.

And a murder map to compare with the number of people in prisons. Louisiana has a lot of prisoners, a lot of murder, doesn't all correlate exactly, but it shows the message.

the big cities in New Orleans are run by democrats....their law enforcement policies keep crime alive.....of those democrat run cities are like Chicago, the local politicians protect the gangs and other criminals....what they need are more Guilianis, to go in and clean up the crime....not nurture it for political gain........

A
Gain, law abiding people owning and carrying guns are not the problem....the gun murder rate is not from normal people "losing it" one day....it comes from law enforcement policies that allow criminals, both organized and random to run rampant...just like the gangs in Chicago......

If you focus on law abiding citizens, which all you gun grabbers do, you won't cut the murder rate in these democrat controlled inner cities.....


and keep in mind......gun murder is going down as more Americans buy and own guns........it is safe in 90% of the country........fun murder is a problem in small geographic areas in our inner cities.....because of gangs and other criminals......

You, sir, are a fucking moron.

Democrats run MOST cities, just as Republicans run MOST states. It's simply how they organize. It's got jack squat to do with how much crime is in this city or how much poverty is in that state. Especially in the case of cities, where the big issue is what day to pick up the garbage.

See if you can grow up and put a modicum of intelligence into your thinking. You know, something with a little more cerebral meat on it than this imaginary football scoreboard featuring "us" versus "them".

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

You liberals all missed the point, as usual. You want more laws that will do nothing. Mass shootings are very rare with less than 600 people killed over a 30 year period.

West did not write the article. It was from another source that he linked to and I don't give a shit what you think of any source. If it makes sense, I'll go with it.

Grow up. I should have known I'd get a clown pic from the clown poster who can't put an intelligent sentence together or actually engage in a discussion.

Nope. I don't want more laws. Stop trying to speak for me. You never get it right when you try.

Correct.

That’s a ridiculous lie contrived by the right, that ‘liberals’ want ‘more’ gun control.

Again, the issue isn’t ‘gun control,’ but what regulatory measures are appropriate and which are not, regulatory measures authorized by the Second Amendment.

 

[frigidweirdo]

they aren't locking up violent offenders.......I have shown you how they are letting them go in Chicago because the gangs have politicians in their pocket...the police have a hands off policy or they get pounded by the local politicians.....I just posted about a man stabbed to death on the D.C. metro....his attacker was arrested 2 days before the attack on another violent robbery charge, the prosecutor dropped it to a midemeanor and he was out that day....2 days later he stabbed the man to death.....

If you want to stop violent crime of all kinds...you have to lock up violent, dangerous criminals....if you don't do that, and instead make it harder for non criminal, non violent people who don't commit crimes with guns to get guns....then you are doing nothing to stop violent crime...nothing....and none of your dumb photos supports any of that ......

So you found two example of violent criminals being locked up, so this means no violent criminals are being locked up?

But like I've been saying all along, you need to be more pro-active. Locking people up on its own doesn't work. States which lock up more people have a tendency of having higher crime. You'd think this is logical, but your suggestion is that crime would GO DOWN, but it's not happening.

But then again what you've said about politicians in Chicago, doesn't it seem that politicians are the major big problem in not doing their job? Yet the voters keep electing these people to office. We all know many politicians have been bought and it's almost impossible for the people's voice to be heard in DC.

Oh, just saw your last statement. So, I should take it that I could post evidence out of my ears and you will just ignore stuff because it doesn't fit with you "dumb" arguments?

I had hoped you'd be open minded, but every time you go back to the same old same old arguments that everyone else uses. You don't insult, which is different, but apart from that you don't seem to have much interest in figuring out the truth. You just want to be proven right.

This conversation has probably reached its end then. If you're not willing to see what is clearly there. If you're only willing to see what you want, then I won't bother.

 

[M14 Shooter]

You liberals all missed the point, as usual. You want more laws that will do nothing. Mass shootings are very rare with less than 600 people killed over a 30 year period.

West did not write the article. It was from another source that he linked to and I don't give a shit what you think of any source. If it makes sense, I'll go with it.

Grow up. I should have known I'd get a clown pic from the clown poster who can't put an intelligent sentence together or actually engage in a discussion.

Nope. I don't want more laws. Stop trying to speak for me. You never get it right when you try.

Correct.
That’s a ridiculous lie contrived by the right, that ‘liberals’ want ‘more’ gun control.

Funny how you have to lie to make your points.
Every time a shooting makes the national news, the first thing the anti-gun loons do is screech about more gun control.
Pelosi Congress Has a Moral Authority to Act on Gun Control But Not on Illegal Aliens - Freedom Outpost
Obama hits gun control theme in reaction to church shootings Fox News