A Question for Pro-Choice Christians

[Fishlore]

Behind the modern issue of abortion is the question about "when life begins" and the radically different view of conception and birth in pre-modern societies. Abortion as used today, meaning the deliberate medical procedure of terminating a pregnancy, largely because the technology was not widely or reliably available.

The idea of conception, the fertilizing of egg by sperm was unknown in Biblical times and for centuries thereafter. Human production was seen analogously to plant reproduction. The male was thought to carry the "seed" a compete, tiny individual child which was "planted" in the uterus and grew until birth.

The process of gestation was seen as itself without moral significance, a bit like digestion. The key issue in Jewish and Christian theology was the point at which the sprouting seed became a person. The story of the creation of Adam in Genesis was the source of teaching in this area. The Bible says that God created Adam out of clay and "breathed" life into him. Following this, came the conclusion that life and personhood came with the baby's first breath (or "inspiration" in the Latinate term). Termination of pregnancy prior to birth was not taking human life

As civilization in the ancient world developed more sophisticated abortifacients, the status of late-term fetuses became more complex and with it the issue when the developing fetus became a full human. Christian theology established that there came a point at which the developing fetus acquired an immortal human soul by the miraculous creation of God. It was the possession of a human soul that made a human being (still does in Christian teaching). Over centuries, the consensus shifted from the idea of the breath of life to the "quickening" or coming alive, the point at which the spontaneous movement of the fetus in utero could be felt by the mother. Deliberate killing of the fetus beyond that point came to be called abortion and was considered morally wrong.

Incidentally, the condemnation of abortion had nothing to do with the taking of innocent human life. In Christian theology, the unborn child is not innocent; on the contrary the child carries the guilt of original sin inherited from Adam and without the administration of Baptism, is doomed to Hell. The objection to deliberate termination of the fetus subsequent to quickening was that it conflicted with the act of God in creating the child's soul. Christian obligation was to bring the child to birth and Baptism so that it might be saved from eternal damnation.

All of these concepts seem bizarre to the modern mind, but that's the way it was and the reason why our modern conundrum over "abortion" did not exist in pre-modern times. The idea that life begins at conception is a modern anachronism in theology.

There, now you know.

 

[PostmodernProph]

It does seem to be a contradiction huh? The first thing to realize is that being "pro-choice" does not mean one thinks abortion is the right thing to do.

obviously it means they think at least a person who wants to ought to do it.....not a good starting point.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

Abortion is permitted in the bible as is birth control.

there's always someone around that tries to make this bogus claim......

 

[aris2chat]

It does seem to be a contradiction huh? The first thing to realize is that being "pro-choice" does not mean one thinks abortion is the right thing to do.

obviously it means they think at least a person who wants to ought to do it.....not a good starting point.....

It I about woman controlling their own body and deciding what is best for them. It is about options and freedom. It is about empowerment instead of slavery. It is about physical and mental health. It is about a woman/girl being grown enough to carry and birth a child. It is about not being tied to a rapist for life.
It is about far more than the death of a fetus.
Any child born should be there because it is loved and the parents are ready to take the responsibility to raise it. It is about the quality of love and life not just animal husbandry to produce as many off spring as possible.

We don't live in the times of the black death when half the population died within 24 hrs of being infected. When the population was so small it could not produce enough food.

Right now we are threatened with extinction due to over population

 

[aris2chat]

Abortion is permitted in the bible as is birth control.

there's always someone around that tries to make this bogus claim......

>>
Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.



If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23


The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.


And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6


Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.


Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16


God sometimes approves of killing fetuses.


And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17
(Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)


Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. -- Hosea 9:14


Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16


Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. -- Hosea 13:16


God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents.


Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. -- 2 Samuel 12:14


God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives.


The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...
And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28


God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.


Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24 <<

 

[koshergrl]

I don't even know where to begin with this.

Abortion and birth control did not exist from the beginning of time nor 2,000 plus a years ago after Christ came.

Well I don't know about the beginning of time, but it was certainly around when Jesus was alive and far before. A common form of contraception in antiquity, for example, was using half a lemon as a diaphragm. Abortion was around as well in all cultures. Assyrian Law from over 1050 BCE provides punishments for women who get an abortion against their husband's wishes. Obviously no one knows exactly when these practices began but they were alive and well at least 3,000 years ago and most likely for a few thousand years prior to that.

Gays/lesbians did exist during the time of Sodom, but this practice as well as other depraved and immoral things, is why God destroyed the earth with a flood. Those extrodinary sins don't make them acceptable to God and He can't tolerate them.

Well first of all Sodom came after the flood and second the Bible never says what the sin of Sodom was nor what sins man was participating in that led Him to flood the Earth. It just says they were wicked and that's it.

Jesus didn't like the Pharisees not because they lived under the law, but because they were doing bad things in the name of religion, like being money changers and ripping off people inside the church. The only thing you were partially correct is that Jesus IS about love, forgiveness, and hate. However, He didn't condone lawlessness and sin, and was vocal about it which is mostly why the Pharsees didn't like him, but they actually killed him because he simply stated He was the Son of God.

"simply stated He was the Son of God"...."simply". That's what was called heresy. Even saying the name of God would get you killed back then. There is no "simply" about it. According to Jewish law it was blasphemy and punishable by death. And it was the Sadducees that killed Him not the Pharisees. It was the Sadducees that were ripping off the people in the Temple not the Pharisees.

Paul lived with Jesus and as such he merely told what Jesus was like because few (11 others) had the opportunity since no mass media existed in those days. Paul's intention was to spread the Word and instruct others how they should live according to Jesus.

Paul never even MET Jesus. Try reading Acts for Christ's sake. If you read Paul's letters he almost never quotes Jesus and he and Jesus disagreed on several points. It's very possible that Paul didn't quote Jesus or talk about the life of Jesus because he didn't know much about Jesus.

YOU don't know the Bible whatsoever. Learn!!! Why don't you!

That may be the most ironic statement on this entire thread

Actually he called God his father, but that was not heresy. Christ did not proclaim himself as THE son of God, and when the questioning became pointed, he refused to answer. He was killed not because he actually committed heresy...he didn't....but because the people BELIEVED he was the Messiah. And he criticized the hebrewreligious leaders.

 

[koshergrl]

What they seized on was his comment "I Am" which is God's name for Himself.

 

[koshergrl]

If one chose to interpret it that way.

 

[koshergrl]

Abortion is permitted in the bible as is birth control.

there's always someone around that tries to make this bogus claim......

>>
Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.



If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23


The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.


And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6


Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.


Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16


God sometimes approves of killing fetuses.


And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17
(Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)


Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. -- Hosea 9:14


Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16


Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. -- Hosea 13:16


God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents.


Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. -- 2 Samuel 12:14


God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives.


The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...
And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28


God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.


Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. -- Genesis 38:24 <<

Yup. That was the price for rejecting and rising up against God. They were given the opportunity to rejoin the fold...remember these were people who had witnessed God's terrible glory in pillars of fire, places, the parting of the red sea, and the destruction of pharaohs army. They chose to reject God, and he ordered the faithful to decimate them. It will happen again.

 

[BluePhantom]

I don't even know where to begin with this.

Abortion and birth control did not exist from the beginning of time nor 2,000 plus a years ago after Christ came.

Well I don't know about the beginning of time, but it was certainly around when Jesus was alive and far before. A common form of contraception in antiquity, for example, was using half a lemon as a diaphragm. Abortion was around as well in all cultures. Assyrian Law from over 1050 BCE provides punishments for women who get an abortion against their husband's wishes. Obviously no one knows exactly when these practices began but they were alive and well at least 3,000 years ago and most likely for a few thousand years prior to that.

Gays/lesbians did exist during the time of Sodom, but this practice as well as other depraved and immoral things, is why God destroyed the earth with a flood. Those extrodinary sins don't make them acceptable to God and He can't tolerate them.

Well first of all Sodom came after the flood and second the Bible never says what the sin of Sodom was nor what sins man was participating in that led Him to flood the Earth. It just says they were wicked and that's it.

Jesus didn't like the Pharisees not because they lived under the law, but because they were doing bad things in the name of religion, like being money changers and ripping off people inside the church. The only thing you were partially correct is that Jesus IS about love, forgiveness, and hate. However, He didn't condone lawlessness and sin, and was vocal about it which is mostly why the Pharsees didn't like him, but they actually killed him because he simply stated He was the Son of God.

"simply stated He was the Son of God"...."simply". That's what was called heresy. Even saying the name of God would get you killed back then. There is no "simply" about it. According to Jewish law it was blasphemy and punishable by death. And it was the Sadducees that killed Him not the Pharisees. It was the Sadducees that were ripping off the people in the Temple not the Pharisees.

Paul lived with Jesus and as such he merely told what Jesus was like because few (11 others) had the opportunity since no mass media existed in those days. Paul's intention was to spread the Word and instruct others how they should live according to Jesus.

Paul never even MET Jesus. Try reading Acts for Christ's sake. If you read Paul's letters he almost never quotes Jesus and he and Jesus disagreed on several points. It's very possible that Paul didn't quote Jesus or talk about the life of Jesus because he didn't know much about Jesus.

YOU don't know the Bible whatsoever. Learn!!! Why don't you!

That may be the most ironic statement on this entire thread

Actually he called God his father, but that was not heresy. Christ did not proclaim himself as THE son of God, and when the questioning became pointed, he refused to answer. He was killed not because he actually committed heresy...he didn't....but because the people BELIEVED he was the Messiah. And he criticized the hebrewreligious leaders.

Well it depends on which gospel you are referring to. He is very strong in claiming to be the Son of God in John and in the others He downplays it. The seven I AM statements you refer to, for example, are all in John. So...yes you are right, but it gets a bit more complicated when you compare the gospel accounts side by side.

 

[koshergrl]

I don't even know where to begin with this.

Abortion and birth control did not exist from the beginning of time nor 2,000 plus a years ago after Christ came.

Well I don't know about the beginning of time, but it was certainly around when Jesus was alive and far before. A common form of contraception in antiquity, for example, was using half a lemon as a diaphragm. Abortion was around as well in all cultures. Assyrian Law from over 1050 BCE provides punishments for women who get an abortion against their husband's wishes. Obviously no one knows exactly when these practices began but they were alive and well at least 3,000 years ago and most likely for a few thousand years prior to that.

Gays/lesbians did exist during the time of Sodom, but this practice as well as other depraved and immoral things, is why God destroyed the earth with a flood. Those extrodinary sins don't make them acceptable to God and He can't tolerate them.

Well first of all Sodom came after the flood and second the Bible never says what the sin of Sodom was nor what sins man was participating in that led Him to flood the Earth. It just says they were wicked and that's it.

Jesus didn't like the Pharisees not because they lived under the law, but because they were doing bad things in the name of religion, like being money changers and ripping off people inside the church. The only thing you were partially correct is that Jesus IS about love, forgiveness, and hate. However, He didn't condone lawlessness and sin, and was vocal about it which is mostly why the Pharsees didn't like him, but they actually killed him because he simply stated He was the Son of God.

"simply stated He was the Son of God"...."simply". That's what was called heresy. Even saying the name of God would get you killed back then. There is no "simply" about it. According to Jewish law it was blasphemy and punishable by death. And it was the Sadducees that killed Him not the Pharisees. It was the Sadducees that were ripping off the people in the Temple not the Pharisees.

Paul lived with Jesus and as such he merely told what Jesus was like because few (11 others) had the opportunity since no mass media existed in those days. Paul's intention was to spread the Word and instruct others how they should live according to Jesus.

Paul never even MET Jesus. Try reading Acts for Christ's sake. If you read Paul's letters he almost never quotes Jesus and he and Jesus disagreed on several points. It's very possible that Paul didn't quote Jesus or talk about the life of Jesus because he didn't know much about Jesus.

YOU don't know the Bible whatsoever. Learn!!! Why don't you!

That may be the most ironic statement on this entire thread

Actually he called God his father, but that was not heresy. Christ did not proclaim himself as THE son of God, and when the questioning became pointed, he refused to answer. He was killed not because he actually committed heresy...he didn't....but because the people BELIEVED he was the Messiah. And he criticized the hebrewreligious leaders.

Well it depends on which gospel you are referring to. He is very strong in claiming to be the Son of God in John and in the others He downplays it. The seven I AM statements you refer to, for example, are all in John. So...yes you are right, but it gets a bit more complicated when you compare the gospel accounts side by side.

Which is what makes it endlessly fascinating and enlightening. The more time you spend in it, the more you understand.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

How are you able to reconcile the legitimacy of elective abortion with the conception and birth of Jesus? Should Mary have had the right to terminate her pregnancy? How about Elizabeth, within whom John the Baptist stirred when she met Mary? Would terminating that pregnancy also have been all right with you?

I would appreciate an explanation of this seeming contradiction of viewpoints.

Because it's perfectly consistent and appropriate to oppose abortion while acknowledging and respecting a woman's right to privacy, where the conflict concerns finding a solution to abortion, not abortion itself, and the desire of those opposed to abortion to find a solution to the problem that comports with the Constitution and it case law.

To oppose 'banning' abortion does not mean one 'supports' the practice.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The first thing to realize is that being "pro-choice" does not mean one thinks abortion is the right thing to do. It simply means one recognizes the freedom of choice. Guess what? God gave us free will. He gave us the freedom to choose. I am pro-choice and a Christian because I want the world to freely choose to make abortions a thing of the past instead of it being forced upon the world.

According to that logic, why shouldn't we abolish all laws and just hope that people will decide to do the right thing?

You're confusing civil law with criminal law, where privacy rights concern the former; your question fails as a false comparison fallacy.

 

[talksalot]

Aris2chat
Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.
A human fetus is a human being, living and developing in a human womb. Chopping that living human fetus into little pieces and sucking it out of that womb is murder.

Most of the Biblical references that you think support abortion are explained here:
Abortion and the Bible

 

[talksalot]

CClaytonJones:
To oppose 'banning' abortion does not mean one 'supports' the practice.
Yes, it does. Anyone, especially someone who claims to be a Christian, who is not actively opposing abortion is supporting abortion. Millions of innocent lives have been snuffed out since Roe v. Wade was unconstitutionally made "law of the land" by the SCOTUS.
Your blather about about "privacy" and the Constitution giving someone the "right" to kill their unborn child is about as far from the will of God and the example of Christ as one can get.

 

[aris2chat]

Aris2chat
Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.
A human fetus is a human being, living and developing in a human womb. Chopping that living human fetus into little pieces and sucking it out of that womb is murder.

Most of the Biblical references that you think support abortion are explained here:
Abortion and the Bible

Rational capacity in striking a woman? Unless he was having seizure and stuck her accidentally or was bi-polar and not in control of his own behavior, there is not rational excuse for striking a woman. Till the child is a month old it is not a crime if the child dies in the bible. Till the second trimester it does not even have a soul.

Herbs for brews like bitter water have been used for thousands of years. There are a number of simple, and some rather nasty, ways of prevent a pregnancy. These would have been common knowledge among those with animals from sheep to horses.

It was not just the ancients but even a pope wrote on ways to prevent and terminate pregnancy. Like celibacy, these things were not frowned on or banned till later on. The bible tells of so many human frailties and yet god still loved the people. God loves, chastises, punishes and forgives. The bible is not just about good, perfect images but very human and real people. Brothers that kill, brothers that cheat, lie and steal, men who love men, women that love women, adultery, assassinations, massacres, lust, rape, abuse. People that despite their flaws can still be leaders and heroes.
human beings

Try reading the bible like literature instead of a religious text that some believe is the word of god. Read it as a story of all mankind. Put yourself in the place of the characters, consider the times and cultures back then. Our world has changed but more of the desires, fears, hates, fault, jealousies of those people still exist today.

Some of the stories might have been left out, but Jesus even killed and lied, he laid with a naked boy, he had a lover/wife, he manipulated those closest to him, he sacrificed himself in a way many would call suicide by cop today. He broke the commandment he did not follow the "letter" of the torah. Even his mother became pregnant out of wedlock.

So why do so many christian think they know and understand the bible if they reject others and are filled with hate. Why do they think they have the right to judge, to punish, to abuse, incite other again and even libel? They are not god.

Why are so many casting stones when they too have sinned? Just because some priest forgive them does not mean they have not sinned. They don't have the right to judge or condemn others.

The bible tells us with every word that we have the right to choose.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Aris2chat
Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.
A human fetus is a human being, living and developing in a human womb. Chopping that living human fetus into little pieces and sucking it out of that womb is murder.

Most of the Biblical references that you think support abortion are explained here:
Abortion and the Bible

You're confusing subjective, personal religious beliefs with facts of law – abortion is not 'murder,' where indeed as a fact of Constitutional law an embryo/fetus is not a 'person' entitled to 5th and 14th Amendment protections; to maintain that abortion is 'murder' is ignorant and ridiculous.

You're at liberty to not have an abortion in accordance with your personal, subjective religious beliefs, but the state may not compel a woman to give birth against her will through force of law.

Given these facts, the only relevant question is: what is your plan to end the practice of abortion that comports with the Constitution and its case law.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

CClaytonJones:
To oppose 'banning' abortion does not mean one 'supports' the practice.
Yes, it does. Anyone, especially someone who claims to be a Christian, who is not actively opposing abortion is supporting abortion. Millions of innocent lives have been snuffed out since Roe v. Wade was unconstitutionally made "law of the land" by the SCOTUS.
Your blather about about "privacy" and the Constitution giving someone the "right" to kill their unborn child is about as far from the will of God and the example of Christ as one can get.

No, it doesn't.

Again, it's perfectly appropriate and consistent to oppose abortion as a matter of subjective personal opinion or subjective religious belief while also respecting a woman's right to privacy, respecting the Constitution and its case law, and acknowledging the fact that the state has no authority to compel a woman to give birth against her will.

Subjective, personal religious beliefs and facts of law are two completely separate issues, one having nothing to do with the other – attempting to conflate the two fails as a false comparison fallacy.

 

[PostmodernProph]

It does seem to be a contradiction huh? The first thing to realize is that being "pro-choice" does not mean one thinks abortion is the right thing to do.

obviously it means they think at least a person who wants to ought to do it.....not a good starting point.....

It I about woman controlling their own body and deciding what is best for them. It is about options and freedom. It is about empowerment instead of slavery. It is about physical and mental health. It is about a woman/girl being grown enough to carry and birth a child. It is about not being tied to a rapist for life.

no.....its about killing a living human being......that can never be a good thing......

 

[PostmodernProph]

>>
Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.



If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23

of course a fetus is considered human life.....where did you get the silly idea it wasn't......

first, look at the text as it actually appears in the Bible instead of from an atheist's misrepresentation of it....
NIV translation...
22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows.23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 21 - New International Version

if the unborn child died under Exodus 21's rules, a life was to be given for life......if no life was harmed, money compensation was paid.......