A Question of Bigotry

[TemplarKormac]

Because the vast majority of liberals and gay Americans aren't Christian, where liberals are correct in their criticism of the hate and ignorance that manifests among many Christians where those Christians use their faith as ‘justification’ for their hate.

To be critical of that kind of hate and ignorance is not being ‘bigoted.’

The issue therefore has nothing to do with being Christian, or Christianity, the issue has to do with those hostile toward gay Americans using their faith as a façade behind which to hide, where there are millions of Christians who do not hate gay Americans, and with whom liberals take no issue.

And the same disdain would apply to a Jew or Muslim who might use his faith as justification to hate gay Americans, having nothing to do with the religion, and everything to do with the individual propagating the hate.

That's a faulty premise. Liberals use their so-called 'tolerance' of others to justify theirs. When will you acknowledge that?



I'm one of those Christians who believes homosexuality is sinful. But I also believe they have the same rights as I do. Does that mean I'm hateful? The issue of Christianity is at the forefront of this issue. From what I can tell, liberals will never allow a man to be against something they believe in. Why is it people like Brendan Eich, Phil Robertson, or those two brothers on HGTV are attacked and eschewed from their livelihoods and reputations for stating their beliefs? Carl Demiao is a Gay Republican but he is treated just the same.

I don't think you can justify taking away the freedom of expression from someone just because you think they are hateful. Which is another thing. Dissenting opinions are just that. Do they make that individual person hateful? No. This is nothing but a guilt by association fallacy.

CHANGING a Quote of another member breaks the rules here Templar...at least it used to...you should edit your post where you changed in C_Clayton's quoted post 'are' to 'aren't' before you get in trouble for it!

Given that I have skills in editing and proofreading, it was a typo in his sentence structure, not a willful or deceitful change of his comment. Because he goes on to bash Christians in general, I knew what he meant, therefore I changed it. Tell me, why would he say in one line that most gays 'are' Christians, then go on to say that they know that Christians are hateful? It only makes sense to assume he meant 'aren't.' So, any accusations of such are baseless. I routinely clean up grammatical, spelling, and or punctuation errors in a quoted comment to make it understandable not only to me, but to the readership.

Problem? I know what the rules are, and I did not alter the context of his comment. In fact if you really want to get technical, I clarified it.

 

[TemplarKormac]

It is bigoted to label one opinion as hateful and another as supportive, simply due to the biases of the observer.

That's a very politically correct redefinition of "bigoted". Too bad everyone else will just continue using standard English. If you have to redefine the language to win, you've clearly lost.

Seriously, is this not what you do when someone says "I'm against gay marriage"? Suddenly it makes them hateful and bigoted. If that isn't a redefinition of language, than I don't know what is.

 

[TemplarKormac]

 

[Asclepias]

It is bigoted to label one opinion as hateful and another as supportive, simply due to the biases of the observer.

That's a very politically correct redefinition of "bigoted". Too bad everyone else will just continue using standard English. If you have to redefine the language to win, you've clearly lost.

Seriously, is this not what you do when someone says "I'm against gay marriage"? Suddenly it makes them hateful and bigoted. If that isn't a redefinition of language, than I don't know what is.

What makes them bigoted is voting against it. If what someone does in their bedroom moves you to vote for them to not have the same rights as you then you are a bigot. They can be against homosexuality all day. I'm against homosexuality but guess what? Its none of my business unless I plan on becoming gay.

 

[Billo_Really]

I've heard many times that Christians or Conservative individuals are bigots. I've heard the counterclaim that Liberals and Homosexuals are as such themselves. But I simply wish to pose a couple of questions: Using the logic that a Christian or Conservative is bigoted and anti-gay, would the Liberals be just as bigoted and anti-Christian? How can one sit there and accuse the other of being bigoted, while not acknowledging their own bigotry in return?

Yes, I know, someone in this thread is bound to say, "Well Christians and Conservatives are inherently bigoted! We are tolerant!" Well, that poses another question. Are you really? If a Christian can be accosted for speaking his mind on homosexuality, namely people like Phil Robertson or Brendan Eich, but a homosexual can be praised for shoving it in his face; is that not intolerant, or bigoted? And likewise, another will say, "No! Liberals and homosexuals are inherently bigoted! We are tolerant!" The same I ask, are you really? How can you be tolerant when you wish to deny someone equal protection under the same laws that govern you and I, simply because they are gay? Is that not intolerant or bigoted as well?

One side wishes for equality and tolerance, as does the other. Both sides say the are tolerant, but in reality they are not. Both sides want equality, but in reality they only want a society more favorable to their worldviews or religious beliefs. From my vantage point, neither side has any room to maneuver. Both sides are just as bigoted as one another. The views each side holds does not justify the behavior they exhibit towards one another. Tolerance is a two way street. You can't demand tolerance, you must earn it. So, it is a matter of: are you a bigot or not?

First off, this has nothing to do with "sides". Just because someone on ones "side" happens to be bigoted, doesn't mean the whole "side" is bigoted. There are bigots on all sides and in all groups. And it depends on the bigot, not the side or group.

Secondly, anyone who is anti-gay, is not a Christian. They may claim they are, but they have nothing to do with Christ. Christ preached love. And people who are anti-gay are not doing that because they love them.


And thirdly, did you here about the guy who went to the doctor and said,
"Doctor, I'm addicted to Twitter, can you please help me?"

And the doctor replied, "I'm sorry, I don't follow you!"

 

[JoeB131]

Sorry, guy, just can't believe in a God who would make someone gay and then torture him for all eternity for it.

 

[Luissa]

Your intolerance DOES make you just as much a bigot as anyone else's intolerance makes them.

I wont ever apologize for not tolerating racism or gay bashing, but no it doesn't make me a bigot. That argument is tired and mostly a way for bigots to feel better about their hate. Sorry.





Thanked by Rat in the Hat

So don't apologize. Nothing tired about an argument that calls a spade a spade.



Your intolerance is no better, worse, nor different than anyone else's. It isn't "right-er" because of your beliefs. Bigotry is bigotry. Yours is the same as a Nazi's. Just aimed in a different direction.

Yeah! I don't think so.


Thanked by Rat in the Hat

 

[TemplarKormac]

Billy, we were taught love AND OBEDIENCE.

1 Peter 4:16-17 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name. For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

​

So am I not a real Christian?

 

[Shrimpbox]

No one knows what god will do. You people throw words like bigot, hater, and homophobe around like you are at an auction bidding up the price. There's a lot of sound and fury but not much light here.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

But you do seek to deny gay Americans their civil liberties, in violation of the Constitution and its case law, and because you seek to deny gay Americans their civil liberties by codifying your hate and ignorance, you do injury to gay Americans, where that injury manifests as bigotry.

That you attempt to hide your bigotry behind the façade of religious dogma does nothing to conceal your ignorance and hate for gay Americans, in violation of that religious dogma; indeed, you and other Christians are not only bigots, you’re hypocrites as well.

 

[Luissa]

So do you don't support it, do you think they should be allowed to get married and receive the same federal benefits heterosexuals receive?
The point is, I don't care if you don't agree with it. You have the right to your beliefs and your religion.
You become a bigot when you want your beliefs to decide whether or not they should be allowed the same rights as others, and if they can receive federal benefits. I have plenty of Christian friends who don't agree with it, but believe it isn't their place to deny them a right or tell them how to live.
As for the meme, I have seen it before on Facebook. Why post it? What are you trying to prove? Are you trying to alienate people?
It isn't about speaking your beliefs, it's about being respectful. I am not Christian but I would never post the same sort of meme about Christianity on my Facebook. It's called having respect for people who are your friends and family.
I don't say one word about my beliefs towards Christianity on Facebook, out of respect. Plus, many will just think you are a disrespectful ass. It is not your place to tell your friends their lifestyle is wrong. Call me a bigot all you want, but show people the same courtesy they show you, and don't tell people you think they are wrong.
I couldn't believe one of my friends posted that, for one I knew we had the same gay friends on our Facebook page. It was a slap to the face to them. They have never commented on her beliefs or lifestyle. It was highly disrespectful, and something that didn't need to be shared in that setting. On a message board is one thing, on Facebook it is your friends and family.


Thanked by Rat in the Hat

 

[theDoctorisIn]

I've heard many times that Christians or Conservative individuals are bigots. I've heard the counterclaim that Liberals and Homosexuals are as such themselves. But I simply wish to pose a couple of questions: Using the logic that a Christian or Conservative is bigoted and anti-gay, would the Liberals be just as bigoted and anti-Christian? How can one sit there and accuse the other of being bigoted, while not acknowledging their own bigotry in return?

Both claims are faulty. The "logic" is ridiculous.

Anyone who says that all Conservatives or all Christians are bigots are themselves bigots. Most liberals don't say that.

Yes, I know, someone in this thread is bound to say, "Well Christians and Conservatives are inherently bigoted! We are tolerant!" Well, that poses another question. Are you really? If a Christian can be accosted for speaking his mind on homosexuality, namely people like Phil Robertson or Brendan Eich, but a homosexual can be praised for shoving it in his face; is that not intolerant, or bigoted? And likewise, another will say, "No! Liberals and homosexuals are inherently bigoted! We are tolerant!" The same I ask, are you really? How can you be tolerant when you wish to deny someone equal protection under the same laws that govern you and I, simply because they are gay? Is that not intolerant or bigoted as well?

What's the point of this thread?

At first glance it seemed to be a call for an actual discussion. But the more I read of it, the more it becomes a partisan diatribe. Why are you arguing against a claim that no one has actually made yet?

For the record, I heard plenty of people "praise" Phil Robertson for his remarks and frequently "accost" gays for "shoving it in their faces".

One side wishes for equality and tolerance, as does the other. Both sides say the are tolerant, but in reality they are not. Both sides want equality, but in reality they only want a society more favorable to their worldviews or religious beliefs. From my vantage point, neither side has any room to maneuver. Both sides are just as bigoted as one another. The views each side holds does not justify the behavior they exhibit towards one another. Tolerance is a two way street. You can't demand tolerance, you must earn it. So, it is a matter of: are you a bigot or not?

There's no such thing as a view that's universal to either "side". You've got to stop thinking in groups. These diatribes against either "side" are silly.

Everyone is an individual. Not a single "liberal" or "conservative" holds every single view that's associated with either term. You guys (hehe) always love to talk about "individuals" and "individual rights", it's time to start thinking like that. I'm not responsible for the actions of any other "liberal".

 

[tinydancer]

For the record, I heard plenty of people "praise" Phil Robertson for his remarks and frequently "accost" gays for "shoving it in their faces".

Hey back that up. I was ready to go into a different take till I saw this.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

For the record, I heard plenty of people "praise" Phil Robertson for his remarks and frequently "accost" gays for "shoving it in their faces".

Hey back that up. I was ready to go into a different take till I saw this.

There are plenty of posts on this very message board.

The point of my post is that I'm not claiming that "all Conservatives" say that. But some do. Just like some liberals stay stupid shit like TK has described.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Your intolerance DOES make you just as much a bigot as anyone else's intolerance makes them.

I wont ever apologize for not tolerating racism or gay bashing, but no it doesn't make me a bigot. That argument is tired and mostly a way for bigots to feel better about their hate. Sorry.


Thanked by Rat in the Hat

So don't apologize. Nothing tired about an argument that calls a spade a spade.

Your intolerance is no better, worse, nor different than anyone else's. It isn't "right-er" because of your beliefs. Bigotry is bigotry. Yours is the same as a Nazi's. Just aimed in a different direction.

Racism and gay bashing are bigotry, by definition.

Refusing to "tolerate" bigotry is not bigotry itself. That's a ridiculous argument.

 

[Luissa]

I wont ever apologize for not tolerating racism or gay bashing, but no it doesn't make me a bigot. That argument is tired and mostly a way for bigots to feel better about their hate. Sorry.


Thanked by Rat in the Hat

So don't apologize. Nothing tired about an argument that calls a spade a spade.

Your intolerance is no better, worse, nor different than anyone else's. It isn't "right-er" because of your beliefs. Bigotry is bigotry. Yours is the same as a Nazi's. Just aimed in a different direction.

Racism and gay bashing are bigotry, by definition.

Refusing to "tolerate" bigotry is not bigotry itself. That's a ridiculous argument.

I wonder if they think MLK Jr was racist for not accepting segregation and fighting for equal rights?


Thanked by Rat in the Hat

 

[blackhawk]

I've heard many times that Christians or Conservative individuals are bigots. I've heard the counterclaim that Liberals and Homosexuals are as such themselves. But I simply wish to pose a couple of questions: Using the logic that a Christian or Conservative is bigoted and anti-gay, would the Liberals be just as bigoted and anti-Christian? How can one sit there and accuse the other of being bigoted, while not acknowledging their own bigotry in return?

Yes, I know, someone in this thread is bound to say, "Well Christians and Conservatives are inherently bigoted! We are tolerant!" Well, that poses another question. Are you really? If a Christian can be accosted for speaking his mind on homosexuality, namely people like Phil Robertson or Brendan Eich, but a homosexual can be praised for shoving it in his face; is that not intolerant, or bigoted? And likewise, another will say, "No! Liberals and homosexuals are inherently bigoted! We are tolerant!" The same I ask, are you really? How can you be tolerant when you wish to deny someone equal protection under the same laws that govern you and I, simply because they are gay? Is that not intolerant or bigoted as well?

One side wishes for equality and tolerance, as does the other. Both sides say the are tolerant, but in reality they are not. Both sides want equality, but in reality they only want a society more favorable to their worldviews or religious beliefs. From my vantage point, neither side has any room to maneuver. Both sides are just as bigoted as one another. The views each side holds does not justify the behavior they exhibit towards one another. Tolerance is a two way street. You can't demand tolerance, you must earn it. So, it is a matter of: are you a bigot or not?

We all have racist or bigoted feelings and at one time or another have said or will say racist and bigoted things does that make you racist? When the whole Donald Sterling story broke I put out what type of things might people hear us say if we were recorded without or knowledge is saying something that others would consider racist which I suspect we all have done the same as refusing to hire or work with some different from us?

 

[Asclepias]

I've heard many times that Christians or Conservative individuals are bigots. I've heard the counterclaim that Liberals and Homosexuals are as such themselves. But I simply wish to pose a couple of questions: Using the logic that a Christian or Conservative is bigoted and anti-gay, would the Liberals be just as bigoted and anti-Christian? How can one sit there and accuse the other of being bigoted, while not acknowledging their own bigotry in return?

Yes, I know, someone in this thread is bound to say, "Well Christians and Conservatives are inherently bigoted! We are tolerant!" Well, that poses another question. Are you really? If a Christian can be accosted for speaking his mind on homosexuality, namely people like Phil Robertson or Brendan Eich, but a homosexual can be praised for shoving it in his face; is that not intolerant, or bigoted? And likewise, another will say, "No! Liberals and homosexuals are inherently bigoted! We are tolerant!" The same I ask, are you really? How can you be tolerant when you wish to deny someone equal protection under the same laws that govern you and I, simply because they are gay? Is that not intolerant or bigoted as well?

One side wishes for equality and tolerance, as does the other. Both sides say the are tolerant, but in reality they are not. Both sides want equality, but in reality they only want a society more favorable to their worldviews or religious beliefs. From my vantage point, neither side has any room to maneuver. Both sides are just as bigoted as one another. The views each side holds does not justify the behavior they exhibit towards one another. Tolerance is a two way street. You can't demand tolerance, you must earn it. So, it is a matter of: are you a bigot or not?

We all have racist or bigoted feelings and at one time or another have said or will say racist and bigoted things does that make you racist? When the whole Donald Sterling story broke I put out what type of things might people hear us say if we were recorded without or knowledge is saying something that others would consider racist which I suspect we all have done the same as refusing to hire or work with some different from us?

I think people miss the point. No once cares if you are a bigot if you keep your mouth shut and you are not in a position to harm others. Most bigots are that way because they are powerless and have been grasped onto the idea that "those guys" are the reason that they are failing at life. This failing can be in their personal or professional life but it makes no difference. Someone, anyone other than themselves are the blame and they are seeking revenge. Since bigotry and racist thoughts are taught to you then you can learn to not be that way. To excuse it as just the normal course of things is lazy and the reason there is a problem in the first place.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I've heard many times that Christians or Conservative individuals are bigots. I've heard the counterclaim that Liberals and Homosexuals are as such themselves. But I simply wish to pose a couple of questions: Using the logic that a Christian or Conservative is bigoted and anti-gay, would the Liberals be just as bigoted and anti-Christian? How can one sit there and accuse the other of being bigoted, while not acknowledging their own bigotry in return?

Both claims are faulty. The "logic" is ridiculous.

Anyone who says that all Conservatives or all Christians are bigots are themselves bigots. Most liberals don't say that.

Yes, I know, someone in this thread is bound to say, "Well Christians and Conservatives are inherently bigoted! We are tolerant!" Well, that poses another question. Are you really? If a Christian can be accosted for speaking his mind on homosexuality, namely people like Phil Robertson or Brendan Eich, but a homosexual can be praised for shoving it in his face; is that not intolerant, or bigoted? And likewise, another will say, "No! Liberals and homosexuals are inherently bigoted! We are tolerant!" The same I ask, are you really? How can you be tolerant when you wish to deny someone equal protection under the same laws that govern you and I, simply because they are gay? Is that not intolerant or bigoted as well?

What's the point of this thread?

At first glance it seemed to be a call for an actual discussion. But the more I read of it, the more it becomes a partisan diatribe. Why are you arguing against a claim that no one has actually made yet?

For the record, I heard plenty of people "praise" Phil Robertson for his remarks and frequently "accost" gays for "shoving it in their faces".

One side wishes for equality and tolerance, as does the other. Both sides say the are tolerant, but in reality they are not. Both sides want equality, but in reality they only want a society more favorable to their worldviews or religious beliefs. From my vantage point, neither side has any room to maneuver. Both sides are just as bigoted as one another. The views each side holds does not justify the behavior they exhibit towards one another. Tolerance is a two way street. You can't demand tolerance, you must earn it. So, it is a matter of: are you a bigot or not?

There's no such thing as a view that's universal to either "side". You've got to stop thinking in groups. These diatribes against either "side" are silly.

Everyone is an individual. Not a single "liberal" or "conservative" holds every single view that's associated with either term. You guys (hehe) always love to talk about "individuals" and "individual rights", it's time to start thinking like that. I'm not responsible for the actions of any other "liberal".

What's the point of this thread?

At first glance it seemed to be a call for an actual discussion. But the more I read of it, the more it becomes a partisan diatribe. Why are you arguing against a claim that no one has actually made yet?

For the record, I heard plenty of people "praise" Phil Robertson for his remarks and frequently "accost" gays for "shoving it in their faces".

The point, and I'm shocked nobody has seemed to grasp it here is: both sides have their weaknesses, they both have people in their midst who insist on using the same bigotry they themselves posses. I was trying to get both sides of the political spectrum to acknowledge those elements. It is also undeniable how the left also tries to silence others through coercion, I don't see so much of it on the right, purely because they don't have all the clout in the media.

And I would ask the you prove the claim hasn't been made yet. I've read stories all over the internet about the way Phil Robertson was treated by the left, as was Brendan Eich and that Miami Dolphins football player in regards to Micheal Sam. To say people don't accost Christians and praise gays for shoving their lifestyles in their faces is an incredible claim with no merits in reality.

Everyone is an individual. Not a single "liberal" or "conservative" holds every single view that's associated with either term. You guys (hehe) always love to talk about "individuals" and "individual rights", it's time to start thinking like that. I'm not responsible for the actions of any other "liberal".

In this case, guilt by association is justified. It's like an innocent man standing in an alleyway, watching while a thug savages his victim. A party, left or right, sits by why their extremist elements war with one another, unaware of the damage they cause; unaware of their own faults. As one individual, you can't do much, but as a collective of like minded individuals, you can. It only takes one spark to light a fire. And I see the problem of "well that's not my problem" as a reason why there is so much partisanship in politics. Nobody is willing to take charge.

I advocate individual rights. You have seen me many times advocate for the rights and freedoms of gays in America. I for one don't believe in denying anyone equal protection under the law. So regardless of what my conservative friends believe individually, I do walk the walk. I am a libertarian, and that is one reason why. I have assumed the ideals and tenets of the Republicans of yore. I represent most of the conservatives on this board, and I challenge them to do the same.

 

[midcan5]

TemplarKormac obviously does not understand what bigotry is, hopefully this thread and more likely experience will help him on his journey.