Abbas: Peace Agreement Will End Conflict

[Hossfly]

What is the latest news about the Peace Talks, anybody? Are they still on, stalled or cancelled? Curious minds want to know.

 

[Bloodrock44]

What is the latest news about the Peace Talks, anybody? Are they still on, stalled or cancelled? Curious minds want to know.

Latest word is that the pro-Palestinians are hoping talks fail. They would be out of a job if there were peace.

 

[HUGGY]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj6rRNT_Fg4]ABBA : S.O.S (HD) Live Australia '77 - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Bloodrock44]

Update: Palestinians say peace talks going nowhere.

Senior PA official: Peace talks with Israel are going nowhere | JPost | Israel News

 

[docmauser1]

Update: Palestinians say peace talks going nowhere.
Senior PA official: Peace talks with Israel are going nowhere | JPost | Israel News

Whatta serprize!

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

Update: Palestinians say peace talks going nowhere.

Senior PA official: Peace talks with Israel are going nowhere | JPost | Israel News

Well, perhaps the US has far more important things to deal with at the moment that encouraging talks, and I would hope that the Palestinian Authority can just hold off whilst the Syrian business is sorted. Damn, those kids are impatient, immature and selfish.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Update: Palestinians say peace talks going nowhere.

Senior PA official: Peace talks with Israel are going nowhere | JPost | Israel News

Who is saying that the talks will succeed?

Nobody!

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Update: Palestinians say peace talks going nowhere.

Senior PA official: Peace talks with Israel are going nowhere | JPost | Israel News

Who is saying that the talks will succeed?

Nobody!

Well, on the one hand you say the talks won't succeed, and on the other you say Abbas sells out to Israel. Which is it?

 

[toastman]

Until the Palestinian leaders will accept the fact that there will be no right of return and no sharing Jerusalem, peace talks will continue to go nowhere .

 

[RoccoR]

ForeverYoung436, P F Tinmore, Bloodrock44, et al,

Unless you have a special conduit into the process, with insider information, it is all guess work.

Update: Palestinians say peace talks going nowhere.

Senior PA official: Peace talks with Israel are going nowhere | JPost | Israel News

Who is saying that the talks will succeed?

Nobody!

Well, on the one hand you say the talks won't succeed, and on the other you say Abbas sells out to Israel. Which is it?

(COMMENT)

Most of the negative commentary is based on the past history of talks. It suggests that the reasonable expectation in outcome should not be any different than that already realized out of previous attempts. It is based on the assumption that neither side is exhausted and ready for peace as the new paradigm.

The positive commentary is based on optimism. It is based on the idea that reasonable negotiators will come together to achieve reasonable outcomes. Its foundation is on the premise that both sides are ready to effect change on the direction of the relationship between them and will shift towards peace and development.

In order for change to occur, both sides must be willing to compromise - and - both sides must be willing to accept the political risk and baggage that will fallout of a successful negotiated settlement from their own domestic clients. It is unlikely that everyone will be happy with any of the outcomes that lead to peace and cooperation between the Israeli and Palestinians. There undoubtedly will be factions on both side that will find any such settlement as a price to high and a compromise of the integrity to their struggle. Both the Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu are going to have to be prepared for their respective domestic right-wing hardliners if a reasonable settlement is achieved. Both the Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat and Israeli negotiator Tzipi Livni have a huge set of hurdles to overcome in the development of a solution that will both achieve peace and not create a domestic upheaval.

Clearly, on the domestic scene, both sides have elements and factions that would rather continue their respective struggle, rather than compromise on any of the main issues. This is a major hurdle that needs to be overcome. There must be some way to mitigate the impact those that promote the "status quo" and "a continuation of the fight."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

toastman, et al,

Look for the compromise.

Until the Palestinian leaders will accept the fact that there will be no right of return and no sharing Jerusalem, peace talks will continue to go nowhere .

(COMMENT)

There must be some variation on the theme.

• Some limitation on the "right of return."
• A variation on the theme through some compensation.

The idea that the "right of return" issue can be ignored is not really feasible. It has to be addressed and dealt with in a satisfactory manner. It cannot hang out there forever.

There can be no issue that is subject to the Ostrich Effect. You just can ignore them or bury your head in the sand and hope they go away. That is why, the agreement must be comprehensive.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[toastman]

toastman, et al,

Look for the compromise.

Until the Palestinian leaders will accept the fact that there will be no right of return and no sharing Jerusalem, peace talks will continue to go nowhere .

(COMMENT)

There must be some variation on the theme.

• Some limitation on the "right of return."
• A variation on the theme through some compensation.

The idea that the "right of return" issue can be ignored is not really feasible. It has to be addressed and dealt with in a satisfactory manner. It cannot hang out there forever.

There can be no issue that is subject to the Ostrich Effect. You just can ignore them or bury your head in the sand and hope they go away. That is why, the agreement must be comprehensive.

Most Respectfully,
R

So basically you're saying that Israel should allow SOME of the refugees to return ?
Wouldn't that be a kick in the face to the other refugees who got left out ?

Either way, allowing Israel to be flooded with tens of thousands of Palestinians could cause demographic issues in the future and not to mention the hostility that some of these refugees might have towards Israel could cause security issues.
Of course, I'm not saying ALL or even most of them have tat hostility in them, but I'm sure some of them do .

 

[RoccoR]

toastman, et al,

There are rarely occasions that negotiated settlements leave every one satisfied.

toastman, et al,

Look for the compromise.

Until the Palestinian leaders will accept the fact that there will be no right of return and no sharing Jerusalem, peace talks will continue to go nowhere .

(COMMENT)

There must be some variation on the theme.

• Some limitation on the "right of return."
• A variation on the theme through some compensation.

The idea that the "right of return" issue can be ignored is not really feasible. It has to be addressed and dealt with in a satisfactory manner. It cannot hang out there forever.

There can be no issue that is subject to the Ostrich Effect. You just can ignore them or bury your head in the sand and hope they go away. That is why, the agreement must be comprehensive.

Most Respectfully,
R

So basically you're saying that Israel should allow SOME of the refugees to return ?
Wouldn't that be a kick in the face to the other refugees who got left out ?

(COMMENT)

Yes.

The basic hangup is the difference between the definition of a Palestinian Refugee and a Palestinian that is eligible for Refugee Services.

• A Palestinian Refugee is technically only those that were:
  • Displaced during the period June 1946 and May 1948 as a result of the Arab-Israeli conflict.
  • Those who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict (Israeli War of Independence).

This is some number less than when the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) started refugee registry in 1950, about 750,000 eligibles. This number does not include the descendants of the original Palestine refugees, 4-to-5 million Palestine refugees eligible for UNRWA services. These descendants were not displaced as a result of the Arab-Israel conflict.

Either way, allowing Israel to be flooded with tens of thousands of Palestinians could cause demographic issues in the future and not to mention the hostility that some of these refugees might have towards Israel could cause security issues.

(COMMENT)

I think everyone knows that the mass migration is not going to work. It would result in the chaos and starvation. But, there are options. The use of abandon Israeli West Bank Settlements for Refugees, as Settlers are relocated to the Negev or some other new infrastructure. (One might ask what those settlements were originally all about.)

Of course, I'm not saying ALL or even most of them have tat hostility in them, but I'm sure some of them do .

(COMMENT)

Yes, security is a consideration as well. But I believe the Israelis had a partial strategic plan all along. It just wasn't obvious to the unknowledgeable. I don't believe that the Israelis were playing Ostrich. And it is quite obvious that the Arab Palestinian did not see it either.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_3A6_qSBBQ]The Truth About the Refugees: Israel Palestinian Conflict - YouTube[/ame]

 

[toastman]

Quick question Rocco. Are the descendants of the refugees also refugees? In other words, do they have the same status as the actual refugees themselves ?

 

[Hossfly]

toastman, et al,

Look for the compromise.

Until the Palestinian leaders will accept the fact that there will be no right of return and no sharing Jerusalem, peace talks will continue to go nowhere .

(COMMENT)

There must be some variation on the theme.

• Some limitation on the "right of return."
• A variation on the theme through some compensation.

The idea that the "right of return" issue can be ignored is not really feasible. It has to be addressed and dealt with in a satisfactory manner. It cannot hang out there forever.

There can be no issue that is subject to the Ostrich Effect. You just can ignore them or bury your head in the sand and hope they go away. That is why, the agreement must be comprehensive.

Most Respectfully,
R

So basically you're saying that Israel should allow SOME of the refugees to return ?
Wouldn't that be a kick in the face to the other refugees who got left out ?

Either way, allowing Israel to be flooded with tens of thousands of Palestinians could cause demographic issues in the future and not to mention the hostility that some of these refugees might have towards Israel could cause security issues.
Of course, I'm not saying ALL or even most of them have tat hostility in them, but I'm sure some of them do .

The compensation could be to let them return and live at the Holiday Inn at AARP rates. Problem solved.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Quick question Rocco. Are the descendants of the refugees also refugees? In other words, do they have the same status as the actual refugees themselves ?

I'd say definitely no. My parents were former refugees from Poland, but I don't see myself as a refugee.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

Quick question Rocco. Are the descendants of the refugees also refugees? In other words, do they have the same status as the actual refugees themselves ?

I'd say definitely no. My parents were former refugees from Poland, but I don't see myself as a refugee.

But the Arabs have a different UN organisation looking after them. UNRWA deals only with the refugees between 48 and 67 in the area. All other countries are dealt with by UNHCR and do not class descendants of any refugees also as refugees.


Palestine refugee mandate
United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East
Most Palestinian refugees – those in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan – do not come within the responsibility of the UNHCR, but instead come under an older body, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA). The UNRWA has a much broader definition of "refugee" than the UNCHR, including not only refugees themselves but their descendants in perpetuity; however, it only covers refugees stemming from the 1948 and 1967 Arab-Israeli wars. Other Palestinian refugees outside of UNRWA's area of operations do fall under UNHCR's mandate, if they meet the UNHCR's more limited definition of refugee.

United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[P F Tinmore]

Quick question Rocco. Are the descendants of the refugees also refugees? In other words, do they have the same status as the actual refugees themselves ?

I'd say definitely no. My parents were former refugees from Poland, but I don't see myself as a refugee.

Interesting. Why did they leave? Where did they go? How did they get there? Did they try to go back?

Nothing personal. Just curious.

 

[RoccoR]

toastman, et al,

Normally not. But there are other factors.

Quick question Rocco. Are the descendants of the refugees also refugees? In other words, do they have the same status as the actual refugees themselves ?

(REFERENCEs)

• United Nations UNHCR— Treaty Series 1954

• United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) for Palestine Refugees CERI ((Consolidated Eligibility and Registration Instructions)).

• A/RES/302 (IV) 8 December 1949 Assistance to Palestine Refugees

(NOTE): Israel is a party to the convention since 1954.
(COMMENT)

This is really a complex question. There are several factors that come into play.

By convention, the applicablility of a Refugee is:

C. This Convention shall cease to apply to any person falling under the terms
of section A if :

(1) He has voluntarily re-availed himself of the protection of the country
of his nationality ; or
(2) Having lost his nationality, he has voluntarily reacquired it ; or
(3) He has acquired a new nationality, and enjoys the protection of the country of his new nationality ; or
(4) He has voluntarily re-established himself in the country which he left or outside which he remained owing to fear of persecution ; or
(5) He can no longer, because the circumstances in connexion with which he has been recognized as a refugee have ceased to exist, continue to refuse to avail himself of the protection of the country of his nationality; Provided that this paragraph shall not apply to a refugee falling under section A (1) of this article who is able to invoke compelling reasons arising out of previous persecution for refusing to avail himself of the protection of the country of nationality ;
(6) Being a person who has no nationality he is, because the circumstances in connexion with which he has been recognized as a refugee have ceased to exist, able to return to the country of his former habitual residence ;Provided that this paragraph shall not apply to a refugee falling under section A (1) of this article who is able to invoke compelling reasons arising out of previous persecution for refusing to return to the country of his former habitual residence.​

AND​

D. This Convention shall not apply to persons who are at present receiving from organs or agencies of the United Nations other than the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees protection or assistance. When such protection or assistance has ceased for any reason, without the position of such persons being definitively settled in accordance with the relevant resolutions adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations, these persons shall ipso facto be entitled to the benefits of this Convention.

E. This Convention shall not apply to a person who is recognized by the competent authorities of the country in which he has taken residence as having the rights and obligations which are attached to the possession of the nationality of that country.

F. The provisions of this Convention shall not apply to any person with respect to whom there are serious reasons for considering that:

(a) he has committed a crime against peace, a war crime, or a crime against humanity, as defined in the international instruments drawn up to make provision in respect of such crimes;
(b) he has committed a serious non-political crime outside the country of refuge prior to his admission to that country as a refugee ;
(c) he has been guilty of acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.​

Having cited that, it is important to remember that the UNRWA expanded the criteria beyond the convention to include more people that would not otherwise be eligible. They use a matrix to define refugees to include:

• Persons who meet UNRWA’s Palestine Refugee criteria

These are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict. Palestine Refugees, and descendants of Palestine refugee males, including legally adopted children, are eligible to register for UNRWA services. The Agency accepts new applications from persons who wish to be registered as Palestine Refugees. Once they are registered with UNRWA, persons in this category are referred to as Registered Refugees or as Registered Palestine Refugees.​

• Persons who do not meet UNRWA’s Palestine Refugee criteria

These persons are grouped in the categories listed below. While registered for the purposes of receiving UNRWA services, these persons are not counted as part of the official Registered Refugee population of the Agency. They consist of persons who at the time of original registration did not satisfy all of UNRWA’s Palestine Refugee criteria, but who were determined to have suffered significant loss and/or hardship for reasons related to the 1948 conflict in Palestine; they also include persons who belong to the families of Registered Persons. These categories are:

• Jerusalem Poor and Gaza Poor
• Frontier Villagers
• Compromise Cases
• MNR Family Members
• Non-Refugee Wives
• Kafalah Children

And THEN, there is a whole category of "Persons eligible to receive UNRWA services without being registered in UNRWA’s Registration System.​

And so, it is complicated without a score card. In some cases, it is better to work backwards to determine who is NOT a refugee, but merely drawing services from UNRWA. As an example, those "guilty of acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations."

SO, if you are a Palestinian that supports the HAMAS Covenant, or the PNA Charter, and "organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities and to take appropriate practical measures to ensure that our respective territories are not used for terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against other States or their citizens; THEN you are a person that acts "contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations:" namely The United Nations Global Counter-Terrorism Strategy was adopted by Member States on 8 September 2006. The strategy, in the form of a resolution and an annexed Plan of Action (A/RES/60/288). This would probably include Article 13 and 15 Jihadist and supporters of the HAMAS Covenant, and the Feday'een under Articles 9 and 10 of the Charter.

NOTE: This one matrix alone would thin the ranks considerably. This does not include those that have operated against Peaceful Solutions, Initiatives and International Conferences under Article 13 of the Covenant or Article 19 of the Charter.​

Remember, there is a difference between those that register for services under UNWRA, and those that are actually refugees under the Convention. You may be called a refugee and still not qualify for the "right of return" because you were not displaced. It is not a cut'n'dry answer.

Most Respectfully,
R