Zone1 Abe Lincoln On the Dangers of Multiculturalism

[Donald H]

The truth is, none of America's fanding fouthers can be looked up to as a model of decency in today's world.
In fairness to America, none of the 18th. century's people could.

Mark Twain perhaps came the closest to attaining a standard of decency fitting the 21st. century,, and Charles Dickens wrote a worthy story at least.

The whole point is folks, you need to stop trying to uphold the fanding fouthers bullshit! None of them were good and decent people.

 

[Zincwarrior]

You're trolling and flaming -- you know better

What Does Flaming Mean? Flaming is a hostile online interaction that involves insulting messages, or flames, between users. Flaming may occur in the context of Internet forums

Definitely scary. Lincoln freed the slaves and your hide has been chapped ever since.

 

[Concerned American]

The whole point is folks, you need to stop trying to uphold the fanding fouthers bullshit! None of them were good and decent people.

The whole point is duck, you need to stop trying to uphold the Turdeau's bullshit! He is no good. There I fixed it for you. Again MYOB, you have no standing in this discussion. BTW, Charles Dickens was not an American either nor was Lincoln a founding father. Now run your little commie ass along.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Definitely scary. Lincoln freed the slaves and your hide has been chapped ever since.

Reported. You refuse to stop making this personal.

Civil discourse is the focus here, regardless of topic matter. Constructive criticism and debate is the tone. No insulting, name calling, or putting down other posters.

 

[Zincwarrior]

You posted this topic in an attempt to forward your racist agenda.its not a Zone One thread. Its a badlands thread.

 

[Concerned American]

You posted this topic in an attempt to forward your racist agenda.its not a Zone One thread. Its a badlands thread.

And if you weren't a failed Mod, you could put it there.

 

[Donald H]

And if you weren't a failed Mod, you could put it there.

Zincwarrior didn't fail, he was coming close to succeeding as a moderator, against heavy odds. Or he resigned; one or the other.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

A strange OP. The greatest American politician of his age, probably ever, seeking to lead and hold together a country where half the states were slave-based and all were white supremacist, a man of his times but also ahead of his times, in 1858 Lincoln said many things that would be considered backwards today. Then they were on the cutting edge of what white male voters (almost universally racist) could just barely tolerate in a leader.

If you read the speeches of his adversaries on the same occasions, as reported in the newspapers of the time, you can hear the racist applause of the crowd every time these Lincoln adversaries denounced “N****r Loving” Republican politicians. It makes you see more deeply.

Lincoln himself changed, as did much of the nation — but only gradually and partially — as a result of the South’s Secession, the long and bloody civil war, and after watching how free African-American soldiers, when finally allowed to join the Union Army, fought bravely for their own freedom.

But the defeat of Reconstruction, the rise of Jim Crow terror and Black Codes, the cultural re-unification of the country on the basis of white supremacy and nostalgia for the “Lost Cause,” left African American families in terrible shape, uneducated, an oppressed race-color “caste” like “untouchables” in India … without even “40 Acres and a Mule” to build on.

We Americans, all of us, still have to live with that legacy … even as we think about great individual men like Lincoln, or those “Enlightened” (for their day) slave-owning “Founding Fathers” Washington and Jefferson.

African Americans finally won full “civil rights” in the 1960s and 70s, but they saw them as very late and grudgingly given. Leaders like MLK were murdered, as ghetto riots and the Vietnam War killed hope and had a poisonous effect on society. Many misunderstandings, anger and grudges remained hidden not far below the surface … on all sides.

Factories too started to disappear as education became more necessary than ever. Progress has been made since those days in integrating society at its upper and middle levels, but at the bottom urban black crime and white racism often feed on each other.

African-Americans were not treated like, and did not become like, just another ethnic group that got absorbed into our American “melting pot.” They were long a despised and often despairing racial caste at the bottom of society — but they survived and sometimes thrived. They have contributed to and are an important part of our larger democratic culture & society — even as they still bare collective scars and still are every day seen as “different” because of their race.

Too bad we Americans today, supposedly so far more advanced than our ancestors, can’t seem to produce truly great political leaders anymore … men like Abraham Lincoln.

 

[Natural Citizen]

The problem with Lincoln, in my view, is that he was a Hamiltonian.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

The problem with Lincoln, in my view, is that he was a Hamiltonian.

You often say some of the darnedest things. You’re not all wrong, here, but miss what matters most.

The guy was born in rural Kentucky, in poverty, with one year of formal schooling. He knew plenty about “agrarian democracy” because his life and career was based on it. It was the very limitations of “rural democracy” (and slavery) that inspired him to want something better for himself and his countrymen.

Sure Lincoln was a Whig before he became a Republican, but in those days even “Jeffersonian Democrats” were advocates of expanding the country Westward, and that required new federal and state laws to allow for corporate-style investments and government land grants to build canals and especially railways. This feeling was almost universal then. Hamilton foresaw and was in favor of such measures in his own time … to build a strong and productive Continental nation, sort of — in Thomas Jefferson’s own phrase — an “Empire of Liberty.”

 

[gipper]

The truth is, none of America's fanding fouthers can be looked up to as a model of decency in today's world.
In fairness to America, none of the 18th. century's people could.

Mark Twain perhaps came the closest to attaining a standard of decency fitting the 21st. century,, and Charles Dickens wrote a worthy story at least.

The whole point is folks, you need to stop trying to uphold the fanding fouthers bullshit! None of them were good and decent people.

The FF certainly made a big mistake when they failed to outlaw slavery. However you shouldn’t condemn them entirely for this mistake. They also do some very good work, though we’re rapidly losing it now.

 

[Natural Citizen]

You often say some of the darnedest things.

Indeed I do, Tom. I will not deny it. I just really really really dislike thinking inside of a box. Everything is so compartmentalized in these sorts of discussion.

I prefer to see and understand the course of history as well as its actors through a wider lens.

I could probably ramble on about that. And indeed it is something I would do.

But I woudn't blow the time nor keystrokes in this thread. I'd have to make my own thread on it. That way I know everybody's looking at what I'm talking about through a wider lens and it in a factual, relevant (in scope) way.

You’re not all wrong, here,

Yes, I know.

but miss what matters most.

Are the proceeding couple of paragraphs, what you believe matters most in the timeline/course of events and history, Tom?

And why, if so, is that what matters most? For that matter, moving beyond your own seemingly compartmentalized perceptionof the terms of controversy, to whom did it matter most during that time in history? And also why?

These are questions to ponder rather than trade dialogue about, honestly. As I said, it'd likely be wasted dialogue in a thread like this one. It's just not a good enough thread for it. That is to say that I just donlt believe that it is a bump worthy thread, or one worthy of continuing and expanding on that particular dialogue.

The guy was born in rural Kentucky, in poverty, with one year of formal schooling. He knew plenty about “agrarian democracy” because his life and career was based on it. It was the very limitations of “rural democracy” (and slavery) that inspired him to want something better for himself and his countryme

Sure Lincoln was a Whig before he became a Republican, but in those days even “Jeffersonian Democrats” were advocates of expanding the country Westward, and that required new federal and state laws to allow for corporate-style investments and government land grants to build canals and especially railways. This feeling was almost universal then. Hamilton foresaw and was in favor of such measures in his own time … to build a strong and productive Continental nation, sort of — in Thomas Jefferson’s own phrase — an “Empire of Liberty.”

The economics aspect of it is certainly relevant. Not sure if you want to read me ramble on about economics, though. So here I'll reaffirm my previous thought, however, in that I don't prefer to compartmentalze the relevant terms of controversy.

Lincoln lived in the time of Lysander Spooner. And the New Englanders who strongly believed in secessionism. Secessionism was stronly believed in up until 1860. And it was coming. Anf Lincoln and cmpany knew it. This is why abolitionists like Lysander were so strong in their support for the south. They understood the Constitution and the concept of the Republic and understood what the Hamiltonians who were in favor of a strong central government actually meant by the phrase ''saving the union,'' irrelevant of whether or not slavery was or was not ended.

The only reason Lincoln went to war was to get rid of the original intent of the Republic and to enhance "A Democracy.'' Not to be confused with ''democracy, to be clear, as they are antithetical terms in effect.

And yes. It certainly is the darndest thing.

And slavery. Heck. Do you know that every single time that John Quincy Adams went to Congress after he was President that he introduced an amendment to the Constitution to make it clear that slavery would be abolished.

As well, there was an amendment in 1860 to end slavery, prior to Lincoln's main focus, which was war against the Framers' concept of our Republic, which did not receive support from Lincoln.

 

[Billo_Really]

I'll try to find the quote, but he said something to the effect that...

"The black man is a man, but he is not my brother.". He believed in their freedom, but he recognized nothing good will come out of a multicultural/multiracial culture. He was right.

---

and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. [Cheers and laughter.] My understanding is that I can just let her alone. I am now in my fiftieth year, and I certainly never have had a black woman for either a slave or a wife. So it seems to me quite possible for us to get along without making either slaves or wives of negroes. I will add to this that I have never seen to my knowledge a man, woman or child who was in favor of producing a perfect equality, social and political, between negroes and white men.

Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln. Volume 3 [Aug. 21, 1858-Mar. 4, 1860]. | Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln | University of Michigan Library Digital Collections

quod.lib.umich.edu

Fuck you, asshole! To say white people are superior to blacks is just a racist thing to say! And to put this topic in a zone 1 forum where people cannot great you for the racists that you are, is mind- boghling!

 

[gipper]

Indeed I do, Tom. I will not deny it. I just really really really dislike thinking inside of a box. Everything is so compartmentalized in these sorts of discussion.

I prefer to see and understand the course of history as well as its actors through a wider lens.

I could probably ramble on about that. And indeed it is something I would do.

But I woudn't blow the time nor keystrokes in this thread. I'd have to make my own thread on it. That way I know everybody's looking at what I'm talking about through a wider lens and it in a factual, relevant (in scope) way.




Yes, I know.



are the proceeding couple of paragraphs, what you believe matters most, Tom?

This one.........and why, if so, is that what matters most?




The economics aspect of it is certainly relevant. Not sure if you want to read me ramble on about economics, though. So here I'll reaffirm my previous thought, however, in that I don't prefer to compartmentalze the relevant terms of controversy.

Lincoln lived in the time of Lysander Spooner. And the New Englanders who strongly believed in secessionism. Secessionism was stronly believed in up until 1860. And it was coming. Anf Lincoln and cmpany knew it. This is why abolitionists like Lysander were so strong in their support for the south. They understood the Constitution and the concept of the Republic and understood what the Hamiltonians who were in favor of a strong central government actually meant by the phrase ''saving the union,'' irrelevant of whether or not slavery was or was not ended.

The only reason Lincoln went to war was to get rid of the original intent of the Republic and to enhance "A Democracy.'' Not to be confused with ''democracy, to be clear, as they are antithetical terms in effect.

And yes. It certainly is the darndest thing.

And slavery. Heck. Do you know that every single time that John Quincy Adams went to Congress after he was President that he introduced an amendment to the Constitution to make it clear that slavery would be abolished.

As well, there was an amendment in 1860 to end slavery, prior to Lincoln's main focus, which was war against the Framers' concept of our Republic, which did not receive support from Lincoln.

Abe made it crystal clear in his first inaugural that he didn’t oppose slavery. He did oppose secession and was fully willing to mass murder those who wished to secede.

I laugh when reading his Gettysburg Address. When he states…
…that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.”
I have to laugh. A new birth of freedom? What? After you mass murdered hundreds of thousands you think freedom results? And that same murderous government will be ruled by and for people. WTF!

 

[Natural Citizen]

Fuck you, asshole!

See what I mean, Tom? lolol..

 

[Natural Citizen]

Abe made it crystal clear in his first inaugural that he didn’t oppose slavery. He did oppose secession and was fully willing to mass murder those who wished to secede.

I laugh when reading his Gettysburg Address. When he states…
…that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.”
I have to laugh. A new birth of freedom? What? After you mass murdered hundreds of thousands you think freedom results? And that same murderous government will be ruled by and for people. WTF!

Well, Lincoln was a regular reader of Marx. Lincoln not only lived in the time of Lysander Spooner, he also lived in the time of Marx.

I believe they even exchanged regular personal communication.

There's a book out there entitled ''The S Word: A Short History of an American Tradition...Socialism.''

I was quickly reminded of it when Tom mentioned about the economics of infiltrating westward.

Anyway, it's a good book. It does illustrate the factual, historical alliance that Lincoln had with prominant socialists of the time.

Hold on, I'll look for a supporting article, just to share the gist of why I was reminded of Marx and of that particular book when Tom mentioned about the western side of the nation.

Alright, here's one...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/07/27/you-know-who-was-into-karl-marx-no-not-aoc-abraham-lincoln/

 

[Dadoalex]

I'll try to find the quote, but he said something to the effect that...

"The black man is a man, but he is not my brother.". He believed in their freedom, but he recognized nothing good will come out of a multicultural/multiracial culture. He was right.

---

and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. [Cheers and laughter.] My understanding is that I can just let her alone. I am now in my fiftieth year, and I certainly never have had a black woman for either a slave or a wife. So it seems to me quite possible for us to get along without making either slaves or wives of negroes. I will add to this that I have never seen to my knowledge a man, woman or child who was in favor of producing a perfect equality, social and political, between negroes and white men.

Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln. Volume 3 [Aug. 21, 1858-Mar. 4, 1860]. | Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln | University of Michigan Library Digital Collections

quod.lib.umich.edu

So you're saying Lincoln was a bigot?
And just how long has it taken for this revelation to appear before you?

 

[Zincwarrior]

Zincwarrior didn't fail, he was coming close to succeeding as a moderator, against heavy odds. Or he resigned; one or the other.

I broke the Fourth Wall.

 

[Magnus]

I'll try to find the quote, but he said something to the effect that...

"The black man is a man, but he is not my brother.". He believed in their freedom, but he recognized nothing good will come out of a multicultural/multiracial culture. He was right.

---

and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. [Cheers and laughter.] My understanding is that I can just let her alone. I am now in my fiftieth year, and I certainly never have had a black woman for either a slave or a wife. So it seems to me quite possible for us to get along without making either slaves or wives of negroes. I will add to this that I have never seen to my knowledge a man, woman or child who was in favor of producing a perfect equality, social and political, between negroes and white men.

Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln. Volume 3 [Aug. 21, 1858-Mar. 4, 1860]. | Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln | University of Michigan Library Digital Collections

quod.lib.umich.edu

Abe Lincoln was a man of his times. He grew up in a society that saw Blacks as inferior.

What’s your excuse?

 

[gipper]

Well, Lincoln was a regular reader of Marx. Lincoln not only lived in the time of Lysander Spooner, he also lived in the time of Marx.

I believe they even exchanged regular personal communication.

There's a book out there entitled ''The S Word: A Short History of an American Tradition...Socialism.''

I was quickly reminded of it when Tom mentioned about the economics of infiltrating westward.

Anyway, it's a good book. It does illustrate the factual, historical alliance that Lincoln had with prominant socialists of the time.

Hold on, I'll look for a supporting article, just to share the gist of why I was reminded of Marx and of that particular book when Tom mentioned about the western side of the nation.

Alright, here's one...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/07/27/you-know-who-was-into-karl-marx-no-not-aoc-abraham-lincoln/

That is an interesting twist of history. The R Party had an interest in socialism at it’s beginning. It seems to have completely given up on that idea after Abe’s death, and never again considered it.