Abortion as Murder.

[Bern80]

And that is a positin I've always find rather illogical. That life begins at conception isa rather arbitrary point in time. True, conception is the beginning of creating a human life. But a feralized egg is not a human life. To argue that life begins at conception one would need to argue against things like contraception. You would need to argue that life really begins at adolescense when women start producing eggs and men, sperm. You would be required to argue that using condom or birth control is also abortion. Whether you take the morning after pill after an egg has been fertilized or you use birth control, in either case you are aborting the process of starting a human life.

LOL

What?? talk about illogical

To say life dosn't start at conception is the epitome of illogical thought,how could it be anything else,look at yourself,yu were once just what you deny

Argue life begins at adolescents because of a pro life position???really???!!!!

I think you're misunderstanding and jumping to conclusions. If you read some of this thread you would see I'm pro-choice.......to a point.

It isn't a question of started or not started at conception. The point is sperm, eggs, zygotes, they are all building blocks of a human being, but they aren't a human being. They are stages in a process to becoming one. A fertilzed egg is just as important to that process as the sperm that fertilzed it, therefore aborting the sperm from reaching the egg through contraception has the same consequence as taking a morining after pill to abort the fertilized egg. Life does NOT begin at conception because you can't create something from nothing.

My point was simply to show the flaw in the uber pro-life argument that any abortion after conception should be illegal. I believe such a position requires them to actualy argue that contraception be illegal.

 

[Care4all]

Pregnancy occurs a few days to a week AFTER conception, after the egg is fertilized. Many fertilized eggs die a natural death, when they fail to attach themselves to the mother's uterus....and then when they do attach to the uterus, a healthy percentage naturally abort, spontaneous abortion.

It's not as easy as one may think, to get pregnant, at least for some gals....

 

[chikenwing]

Life does NOT begin at conception because you can't create something from nothing.

When does it then?? eggs and sperm are nothing?? it will always develop into a human and here is the kicker a recognizable human even if to the average person it is not at the very first points in a persons development.never a goldfish or Labrador retriever. At the very point of conception cell development starts,it is NOT inanimate.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I got this charming neg rep message from High Gravity:

"Fuck you you stupid ignorant XXXX , I said that shit weeks ago and I stand by everything that I said, go take your useless bullshit rhetoric and shove it up your shithole and your XXXX you stupid bitch."

Just thought I'd share that for anyone who still thought HG had any moral authority to judge ANYONE else for their opinions, motivations, or real-life actions.

Clearly, HG hates women and deep down, hates himself for his position on abortion. I now suspect that he has paid for someone to have an abortion, probably just to protect himself from the expense of child support, and now feels that he must tear down, abuse, and denigrate anyone who disagrees with him in order to run from the knowledge that he's a heartless, self-centered baby murderer.

Personally, I intend to let him rot in the self-imposed hell of his own lack of character, decency, or morality by putting him on ignore from this moment forward. Spew all the hatred and vitriol and abuse of women that you like, HG. It's just you listening now, and I hope it doesn't help soothe your guilt one iota, because you deserve to hate yourself.

FLUSH!

 

[High_Gravity]

I got this charming neg rep message from High Gravity:

"Fuck you you stupid ignorant XXXX , I said that shit weeks ago and I stand by everything that I said, go take your useless bullshit rhetoric and shove it up your shithole and your XXXX you stupid bitch."

Just thought I'd share that for anyone who still thought HG had any moral authority to judge ANYONE else for their opinions, motivations, or real-life actions.

Clearly, HG hates women and deep down, hates himself for his position on abortion. I now suspect that he has paid for someone to have an abortion, probably just to protect himself from the expense of child support, and now feels that he must tear down, abuse, and denigrate anyone who disagrees with him in order to run from the knowledge that he's a heartless, self-centered baby murderer.

Personally, I intend to let him rot in the self-imposed hell of his own lack of character, decency, or morality by putting him on ignore from this moment forward. Spew all the hatred and vitriol and abuse of women that you like, HG. It's just you listening now, and I hope it doesn't help soothe your guilt one iota, because you deserve to hate yourself.

FLUSH!

Yes I sent that message to you and I stand by everything that I said, I don't hate women but I hate spiteful useless cows such as yourself. You are dismissed.

 

[jillian]

Rationalizing again either you push Abortion or you don't. Seems to me you're pushing it, and if you support Planned parenthood you're pushing profit from it. You do support abortion on demand right?

I suppose you can give simplistic responses to complex problems. I support the decision in Roe v Wade which keeps the G-d squad out of women's bodies. I don't think you have the life experience or wisdom to make those decisions for others.

Still reaching.. I never said that, you said it was a "matter of conscience" I said only if the mothers life is in danger Reread my posts.

i don't need to re-read your posts. you seem to refuse to analyze and extrapolate. you have a very literal way of looking at things which isn't consistent with the world as I see it and isn't consistent with my view of religion.

You continue to reach, rationalizing your position to make yourself feel better about your position. First of all, how often is your ten old scenario actually in play? 1% of all abortions are performed because of rape or incest. Today abortion is mainly used as a form of birth control and Who advocated murder here? That’s a stupid comment on its face, this whole thread is about saving life try again.

Let me clarify the conservative position for you. While I believe that abortion is wrong in most cases and will speak out and work for the preservation of human life, my position is there is no right to abortion in the Constitution, and any law concerning abortion should be left to each individual state. No federal funding should be allowed, If you want to send some money to support abortion that is your right, but don't force me to do the same.

I know what the "conservative" position is. That is fine... for a conservative. But how pathetic that you think you need to ram that down people's throats who don't agree with you. Stay out of other people's moral judgment.

Conservatives pretend to want "small government"... except they want it to extend into a woman's uterus.

now respond to what i said instead of obfuscating and hiding behind platitudes...

it is not moral to force a 10 year old who is a victim of incest to carry a child to term.

it is not moral to murder a doctor for performing a lawful procedure.

it is so easy to pretend to be moral when you've never had and never will have such choices to make.

but keep on feeling self-satisfied.

And for the record, there is a reason i can't stand orthodoxy of any stripe... holy rollers have this perverse idea that they have the only answers.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Nothing like the A word to get everyone going.

Me? The fetus does not out weight the mental or physical well being of the mother if a choice becomes necesary between the two. The mother wins out every time.

 

[chikenwing]

Me? The fetus does not out weight the mental or physical well being of the mother if a choice becomes necesary between the two. The mother wins out every time.


Here is another angle,the choice between you or your child,who would win???

There is no difference between the two situations,an unborn child,is still just as human as the mother,just not shaped the same,a kid born missing limbs is any less a human?? not shaped the same as most but still just as human.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Me? The fetus does not out weight the mental or physical well being of the mother if a choice becomes necesary between the two. The mother wins out every time.


Here is another angle,the choice between you or your child,who would win???

There is no difference between the two situations,an unborn child,is still just as human as the mother,just not shaped the same,a kid born missing limbs is any less a human?? not shaped the same as most but still just as human.

thank you for making it very clear that choice is not yours, only mine. Thus, the choice is only that of the mother, and you don't have a fricking thing morally to say about it.

 

[Jroc]

I suppose you can give simplistic responses to complex problems

A simple view of the world is sometimes the best. The problem with liberals is they make everything much more complicated then they have to be.

I support the decision in Roe v Wade which keeps the G-d squad out of women's bodies. I don't think you have the life experience or wisdom to make those decisions for others.

Whats wrong with letting the states pass their own laws regarding abortion? The problem with liberals is they know whats right, and they want to make everybody conform to their view of right and wrong. Roe V Wade is unconstitutional ruling and should have never been ruled as it was, and I would argue if we had the technology we have now and been able to see the baby in the womb, as we can today, the ruling might have been different.

I don't need to re-read your posts. You seem to refuse to analyze and extrapolate. You have a very literal way of looking at things which isn't consistent with the world as I see it and isn't consistent with my view of religion.

Refuse to analzy? As I said liberals always make things way too complicated, I think it makes them believe they are smarter or more enlightened. As far as Religion, your view is fine for you. I just wanted people to know that all Jews don't have the same view as you on the abortion issue

I know what the "conservative" position is. That is fine... for a conservative. But how pathetic that you think you need to ram that down people's throats who don't agree with you. Stay out of other people's moral judgment.

Conservatives pretend to want "small government"... except they want it to extend into a woman's uterus.

now respond to what I said instead of obfuscating and hiding behind platitudes...

Small federal Government with limited powers, which is one of the principles, this country was founded on. Some people want a big Federal government so as to push and enforce their view of "social justice" that’s not what we are about.

And for the record, there is a reason i can't stand orthodoxy of any stripe... holy rollers have this perverse idea that they have the only answers.

I'm a conservative ,Conservative Jew. I don’t believe women should be wearing traditionally men’s garb, just as Tallit or Kipot, and I’m not crazy about women Rabbis either. Does not mean they are not equals? of course they are. I just like to stick to more of the Jewish tradition in regards my religion.

 

[JakeStarkey]

jroc is describing the thinking fallacies of far lefties and far righties.

The solid majority of centrist America firmly believes in federally regulated and limited abortions. Don't like it? Take it up with the Roman Catholic SCOTUS majority, who will turn the naysayer's collective ass out into the alley through the back door.

 

[Anguille]

I got this charming neg rep message from High Gravity:

"Fuck you you stupid ignorant XXXX , I said that shit weeks ago and I stand by everything that I said, go take your useless bullshit rhetoric and shove it up your shithole and your XXXX you stupid bitch."

Just thought I'd share that for anyone who still thought HG had any moral authority to judge ANYONE else for their opinions, motivations, or real-life actions.

Clearly, HG hates women and deep down, hates himself for his position on abortion. I now suspect that he has paid for someone to have an abortion, probably just to protect himself from the expense of child support, and now feels that he must tear down, abuse, and denigrate anyone who disagrees with him in order to run from the knowledge that he's a heartless, self-centered baby murderer.

Personally, I intend to let him rot in the self-imposed hell of his own lack of character, decency, or morality by putting him on ignore from this moment forward. Spew all the hatred and vitriol and abuse of women that you like, HG. It's just you listening now, and I hope it doesn't help soothe your guilt one iota, because you deserve to hate yourself.

FLUSH!

Thank you for sharing.

 

[shintao]

For those who claim abortion is a medical procedure and is not killing an innocent human being I have a question.

Dr. Kermit Gosnell, 69, faces eight counts of murder in the deaths of a woman following a botched abortion at his office, along with the deaths of seven other babies who, prosecutors allege, were born alive following illegal late-term abortions and then were killed by severing their spinal cords with a pair of scissors.

would these children have been any less viable had this piece of human trash cut them up in utero as opposed to after birth? If Roe is the standard, and the standard it sets is "viability", how is a fetus, any fetus, unviable after about 4 1/2 months of pregnancy? All of them are viable given proper medical care, so what is the difference between murdering them in utero or out?

Philly Abortion Doctor Facing 8 Counts Of Murder CBS Philly – News, Sports, Weather, Traffic and the Best of Philadelphia

Yeah, if you can flop that fetus on the table and it survives on it's own, it sounds viable to me.

Women should be encouraged to adopt out unwanted babies, maybe we would have less abortions. How many here will take a deformed drug baby and raise it?

 

[Jroc]

For those who claim abortion is a medical procedure and is not killing an innocent human being I have a question.

Dr. Kermit Gosnell, 69, faces eight counts of murder in the deaths of a woman following a botched abortion at his office, along with the deaths of seven other babies who, prosecutors allege, were born alive following illegal late-term abortions and then were killed by severing their spinal cords with a pair of scissors.

would these children have been any less viable had this piece of human trash cut them up in utero as opposed to after birth? If Roe is the standard, and the standard it sets is "viability", how is a fetus, any fetus, unviable after about 4 1/2 months of pregnancy? All of them are viable given proper medical care, so what is the difference between murdering them in utero or out?

Philly Abortion Doctor Facing 8 Counts Of Murder CBS Philly – News, Sports, Weather, Traffic and the Best of Philadelphia

Yeah, if you can flop that fetus on the table and it survives on it's own, it sounds viable to me.

Women should be encouraged to adopt out unwanted babies, maybe we would have less abortions. How many here will take a deformed drug baby and raise it?

You praise China You have no credibility on this issue.

 

[Jroc]

jroc is describing the thinking fallacies of far lefties and far righties.

Wrong Jake, I am an originalist.. Not quite as enlightened as you. Sorry buddy.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Wrong Jake, I am an originalist.. Not quite as enlightened as you. Sorry buddy.

The solid majority of centrist America firmly believes in federally regulated and limited abortions. Don't like it? Take it up with the Roman Catholic SCOTUS majority, who will turn the naysayer's collective ass out into the alley through the back door.

The mother's life takes priority when it comes to an either or situation. That's the law.

 

[syrenn]

For those who claim abortion is a medical procedure and is not killing an innocent human being I have a question.

Dr. Kermit Gosnell, 69, faces eight counts of murder in the deaths of a woman following a botched abortion at his office, along with the deaths of seven other babies who, prosecutors allege, were born alive following illegal late-term abortions and then were killed by severing their spinal cords with a pair of scissors.

would these children have been any less viable had this piece of human trash cut them up in utero as opposed to after birth? If Roe is the standard, and the standard it sets is "viability", how is a fetus, any fetus, unviable after about 4 1/2 months of pregnancy? All of them are viable given proper medical care, so what is the difference between murdering them in utero or out?

Philly Abortion Doctor Facing 8 Counts Of Murder CBS Philly – News, Sports, Weather, Traffic and the Best of Philadelphia

Yeah, if you can flop that fetus on the table and it survives on it's own, it sounds viable to me.

Women should be encouraged to adopt out unwanted babies, maybe we would have less abortions. How many here will take a deformed drug baby and raise it?

finally..some sense out of you. I agree.

 

[Jroc]

The solid majority of centrist America

You are probably right with that statement..."centrists"

believes in federally regulated and limited abortions.

Limited? I don't see it

Don't like it? Take it up with the Roman Catholic SCOTUS majority, who will turn the naysayer's collective ass out into the alley through the back door.

I'm not Catholic

The mother's life takes priority when it comes to an either or situation. That's the law.

I agree, read the whole thread and you would have known I agree with that.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

The big problem with this issue is that people who are uneducated on the biology and embryology need to draw their lines in the sand at extreme points that are over simplified, regardless of actual processes. As someone else mentioned, a very large percentage of conceptions are naturally aborted, and no one even realized the woman is pregnant. To claim the destruction of any conception is murder denies our very biology.

The other issue is that the term "murder" is always reduced to a black and white issue by most people, instead of analyzed in an ethical perspective. What does "murder" mean and imply exactly? Does it apply in self-defense? Neglect? Does it apply to animals? Plants? Bacteria? Does intention matter? Does it apply if it allows for release from pain? ETHICS are generally not considered by people who discuss abortion in terms of "murder," as that term tells me the person is just jumping on a loaded word instead of making strong arguments on the actual topic.

 

[Jroc]

The big problem with this issue is that people who are uneducated on the biology and embryology need to draw their lines in the sand at extreme points that are over simplified, regardless of actual processes. As someone else mentioned, a very large percentage of conceptions are naturally aborted, and no one even realized the woman is pregnant. To claim the destruction of any conception is murder denies our very biology.

That’s the key word isn't it...a women probably wont know she is pregnant till after four weeks, So I don't see were "at conception" really matters. unless you have a problem with birth control pills, I have no problem with them. Even morning after pills, but that’s just me others do.

The other issue is that the term "murder" is always reduced to a black and white issue by most people, instead of analyzed in an ethical perspective. What does "murder" mean and imply exactly? Does it apply in self-defense? Neglect? Does it apply to animals? Plants? Bacteria? Does intention matter? Does it apply if it allows for release from pain? ETHICS are generally not considered by people who discuss abortion in terms of "murder," as that term tells me the person is just jumping on a loaded word instead of making strong arguments on the actual topic.

It might have been her intent when she put the "loaded" word murder in the title, Sure the hell gets people's blood boiling doesn't it.