Abortion as Murder.

[jillian]

The point that pro-life groups are ridiculous and need to resort in misleading or false propaganda?

maybe part of the problem is that we humor them by calling them "pro life". they aren't pro life, they're pro birth. if they were pro life, they'd never allow a woman to die for a potential life. they'd never try to pass laws to give hospitals permission to allow living women to die for a potential life. (which would die when the woman dies anyway). they would never try to force a child to carry a pregnancy to term. they would force government to teach safe sex and would fund jobs/education programs and daycare for women who do choose to have children. and they sure as hell wouldn't defund WIC the second the rightwingnuts get into office.

so i think allowing them to feel self-satisifed by humoring them calling themselves pro life is just encouraging them.

they are anti-choice and pro birth... nothing more.

 

[JakeStarkey]

SmartherThanHick is correct when he notes that I agree that the mother's life is more important if the fetus puts the mother's health or life in danger. He also notes that I said the mother has the choice to make as she wishes.

If STH believes that a fetus always should prevail even if the mother dies than STH is a person who follows the devil.

 

[Charles_Main]

One could argue that, I agree, Charles. I would disagree. However, if a mother made the choice to give up her life for the unborn child to live, I would not interfere with that.

I agree, However this is a mute point to me. As danger to the life of the Mother is one of the Reasons for Abortion that I support.

It is just skanks like my wifes little sister that I think should be forcibly Fixed.

She is 21 years old and has had 2 Abortions already.

This actually has caused much trouble in my Marriage as I told my sister in law off after the last one.

Because she is an irresponsible little whore who sleeps around then uses abortion to "fix" the problem.

And there are many many more like her.

I have no numbers but I would bet more than half of Abortions are carried out on women who just were not careful and just do not want to be troubled with a kid right now.

 

[JakeStarkey]

My personal opinion is that using abortion as after-the-fact birth control is awful.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

SmartherThanHick is correct when he notes that I agree that the mother's life is more important if the fetus puts the mother's health or life in danger. He also notes that I said the mother has the choice to make as she wishes.

If STH believes that a fetus always should prevail even if the mother dies than STH is a person who follows the devil.

I am happy to report then that I do not follow whatever demons your religion proposes exist in the world. The point always returns to choice of the mother to make the decision for herself. It should be no surprise the term is called "pro-choice."

My personal opinion is that using abortion as after-the-fact birth control is awful.

I doubt you can find many policy makers or health care providers who believe abortion is an acceptable form of birth control. It is however necessary for the public health and ethical considerations of our population.

 

[Intense]

I'm trying to find your reasoning, not put words in your mouth. Correct me if I interpret you incorrectly. So you stated "the mother is more important." Can I take it to mean that you do not believe her life is equal to that of the fetus? Why is that?

From a different angle, if God Forbid Someone was out Boating with Their Wife and Small Child, and there was an accident, The Person could only save one from drowning, Who should the Person save? I believe most Fathers would choose the Wife, at the same time I believe most Mothers would want the Husband to choose the Child. I think it is a Personal Choice with no Right or Wrong. There are of course other mitigating Factors. In a Pregnancy where one or the Other must die, the Term For Better or Worse comes to mind, I would Choose for my Wife to be Saved. Which Ever way You would choose, I would respect that.

 

[BenNatuf]

have you ever actually read Roe or Casey? There is no unfettered right to abortion. It can be restricted or even PUNISHED after viability. It should be, just like any other murder.

Actually Roe legalized it till the due date, the reason this doctor has the charges on him, is the method of murder he used. Partial Birth abortion was banned under Bush.

Not quite. The original Roe v. Wade decision allowed states to regulate or even ban it in the third trimester. Of course, the companion decision of Doe v. Bolton essentially nullified this by imposing a vague "protection of the mother" loophole that could be interpreted however the doctor liked.

And Casey put an end to that. Under Casey the states interest is enshrined as viability and the trimester system is scrapped due to the fact that those machanics no longer fit the viability standard. The states can either paqss laws or enforce current statutes which shine light on the "vagueness" as they see fit.

 

[BenNatuf]

yet we have a constitutional right to control our own bodies...

or do constitutional rights only matter when they protect things that rightwingnuts like?

you have no constitutional right to commit murder. You can use your body (control it) to bash your kids with a hammer, but you can no more bash your kids in the head with a hammer than you can kill a viable fetus. Both are protected persons, but only the ones that are already born get justice. When the SCOTUS reccognized a states interst in protecting the lives of the unborn once they were "viable" they in effect made them persons. The state has no interest in protecting the lives of non-person human beings or lumps of flesh. That is what the law actually is, but prosecutors will not enforce it.

Abortion is no murder. End of argument....

Odd that you have no argument ther than your own opinion, the facts are what they are. Roe and Casey can be interpretted to allow states to prosecute abortionists and aborting women for murder if they choose to. No prosecutor has tried it yet, and until one does and either succeeds or fails the possibility stands.

 

[BenNatuf]

Of course there is, that was what Roe determinedaside from the fact that there is nothing else a human fetus can be, the law doesn't say anything about "humans", it says "person". Given that Roe identifies a state interest in preserving the "life" of a viable fetus, is there something else it could be? Is it a non-living person? or a living non-person? If its not a person what interest does the state have in any event? It's certainly noit a pet or livestiock (which technically are not protected on there ownm but are protected as "property" owned by people.

If Roe decided it why aren't abortion doctors arrested every day?

because the laws are unenforced... did you miss that the first several dozen times I said it? A prosecutor could chhose to charge murder for the intentional death of a viable fetus. None so far have.

Is it? Can you choose to bash your kids in the head with a hammer? Should you be unpunished if you make that choice? Every crime is a choice, and equal protection is equal protection.so by this logic it should be OK to kill any of them as long as its "not my business". Or better yet, we should make it our business and fix the population problem, why wait for the attrition of abortion? Surely we can be more effecient than that.

But abortion is not a crime so your argument is a non-sequiter[/quote]Abortion of a viable fetus is a crime, it's murder. it's just not enforced. The fact that its not enforced does not make it any less a crime and your assertion of it not beinf a crime is irrelevant. Abortion of an unviable fetus of course is legal under roe.

That's fine, don't teach that robbery or assult is bed. But don't tell kids not to wear condoms either. That aside, you are really stretching your point here - comparing robbing to fucking....two different activities. One affects somebody in that harm is done to them against their will. The other is by two consenting adults. you heard the term comparing apples and oranges? Great example right there...

you are the one who bought a comparison in that has no value, I merely illustrated it. "Choice" is a matter in EVERY crime and the perpetrators are of course free to choose to commit them, they are NOT free of the responsibility for their acts though, whether or not they've had good "home training".

how so? If a devout catholic gets pregnant they have the baby, they raise the baby... I don't see a problem. And the last I checked they have the same rights you do to oppose or propose laws... doesn't mean we have to pass them.

OK, but don't tell kids have sex except for procreation is a sin.

What does that have to do with the law? cathol;ics are free to teach and preach whaatever they wish, they are also free to advocate whatever laws and policies they wish... so are you. And I don't see anyone telling you to shut up because they don't agree with whatever reasoning you use to support whatever you support.

yeah, it worked out so poorly for the church of England. People live in abject poverty because they lack other liberties and the opportiunity that liberty brings, not because they screw without a condum.

Church of England law is not British law unlike Ireland or Italy where condoms are/were outlawed. You are right about liberties, but see my last to Lisa sans the Philippines

Poverty has not a damned thing to do with religion, it is caused by and perpetuated by the lack of opportunity that is engendered by the lack of other liberties and or the total and complete lack of any motivation on the part of the impoverished to take advantage of the opportunities the liberties they have present them.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Murder is a legal term, not a personal definition, BenNatuf. If you can get a law passed to make abortion an act of murder, go for it.

 

[BenNatuf]

I am pro-life from conception till natural death. LOL!!! You guys would not know what to do if you were unable to to kill the vulnerable and "unworthy", huh. Same song different year, most of my uncles family did not make it out of Poland they died in the camps, by people who did not think they were humans either, so regardless of what name you throw at me or insult you toss my way I will not relent nor back down 50 million so far since 73, Hitler would be jealous, you will not recognize until someone makes you their "choice". Sadly, when people take this road to dehumanization that is where we end up.

Don't you dare compare ALL victims of WWII with abortion. Don't even belong in the same paragraph. Unless you're a religous zealot..

...oh..

...that's right...
you are....

By what deserved arrogance do you claim the right to tell anyone what comparisons they can make?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Anyone who compares abortion to the WWII holocaust would make a great Nazi.

 

[Dr Grump]

I am pro-life from conception till natural death. LOL!!! You guys would not know what to do if you were unable to to kill the vulnerable and http://www.usmessageboard.com/images/reputation/reputation_bronzestar.gif"unworthy", huh. Same song different year, most of my uncles family did not make it out of Poland they died in the camps, by people who did not think they were humans either, so regardless of what name you throw at me or insult you toss my way I will not relent nor back down 50 million so far since 73, Hitler would be jealous, you will not recognize until someone makes you their "choice". Sadly, when people take this road to dehumanization that is where we end up.

Don't you dare compare ALL victims of WWII with abortion. Don't even belong in the same paragraph. Unless you're a religous zealot..

...oh..

...that's right...
you are....

By what deserved arrogance do you claim the right to tell anyone what comparisons they can make?

By what deserved arrogance do you claim the right to tell me that I can't?

 

[BenNatuf]

to quote someone famous:

''let he/(she) who is without sin, cast the first stone''

I am pro life, but those sanctimonious on here who claim they are as well, while salivating by calling women who have had or have abortions murderers are doing Christianity an injustice....and certainly NOT helping the cause of reducing as many abortions as possible....nor are they helping their fellow Christian female who is having or has had an abortion, who has fallen short of the Glory of God, by this kind of talk.

I don't believe one female has ever been convicted of MURDER in the USA for having an abortion in this country, EVEN prior to roe v wade. The girls/women were given compassion, because of the stress they were under for their unwanted pregnancy...because of the new hormones flying along with that stress that can make some not think straight as well....

Only the doctors/people who performed the abortion could be or were prosecuted, but not the mother who had the abortion.


btw...I wonder why Adam was NOT considered alive when he was being "formed" by God? this has been perplexing for me....
Adam did not have LIFE when he was being formed by God, he had life when he took his first breath...God breathed life in to him. And it was good.

Absolutely not, Truth never does Christianity an injustice, as sinners we are supposed to repent and go and "sin no more". If you call evil good and good evil then in effect you have called truth a lie. We also have something called Rachels vineyard, these are women who have murdered their children by abortion, and they talk about that freely, you see they are able to heal when they face reality.In the Bible it said God knew you before you were in your mothers womb, and it also says he knitted you in your mothers womb. God is the God of life and the devil is a murderer from the very beginning, nothing has changed.

The adulteress, who according to the Law...was suppose to be killed for her sins, was FORGIVEN by Christ, before she was told to repent and sin no more....I repeat...she was forgiven BEFORE she was asked to repent....had you ever noticed that when reading this passage? Gosh, I love Christ! If all of us could only be more Christ like....

no one is calling evil good, at least not me, if that is what you are implying?

God formed Adam as well....but the Bible still says Adam did not have LIFE, until a breath was taken.

there is no arguing that a human's life begins at conception or pregnancy... according to all science...there is no question that this is a new baby to be, being formed, in its mother's womb imho...they just do not legally achieve person hood, with rights, until they are born according to our laws.

Not true. They achieve all of that according to Roe and casey (which are the "laws") at fetal viability, they are just not afforded the protections that every other person is because the states so far have chosen not to enforce those protections for them.

Truth is truth, yes it is....and what these women have done, is killed their unborn child....not murder....but carry on and say or act the way you do or want to....

yes, murder. The taking of the life of another person without due process of law is murder.

I spoke out to you, as you say you are speaking out to those women who are aborting by calling them murderers and giving them no compassion....

I give no murderers compassion.

btw what is the difference between you and those people who were getting ready to cast the first stone....? Are you sinless?

I sure am glad you are not God or Christ!

Now let me go count my blessings and give thanks to the Lord on that!

who cares about sin? This is about the law and how it can be interpretted if a state chooses to do so... so far, none have. They haven't for a reason... political expedience. No prosecutor wants to get hoisted on the petard of being a heartless bastard for prosecuting a woman for the murder of her viable fetus (even though they could). As if there were no murders where the person who commits the crime doesn't have emotional turmoil. They choose to kill, and they do so AFTER considering the implications, they are the MOST vile of murderers.

 

[JakeStarkey]

No, the law defines what is murder, not you. When the law is passed that makes abortion murder, you can crow.

Right now you get to eat it.

 

[BenNatuf]

If God knows us, before we are formed in the womb like He tells Jeremiah, does this mean that if we were never born and aborted, He would not know us anymore....? We would just disappear from God's presence?

My beliefs tell me that if that is the case, and he knows us before we are born....BTW, I do believe life begins at conception, then those aborted babies are at Gods side in Heaven. Never having been born, but still loved by God.

Abortion is a national tragedy.

do you understand that other religions don't believe that and by trying to legislate it you're trying to legislate your religious beliefs?

no problem with your belief... as long as you don't impose it on others.

aside from the fact that legislation against abortion would be based on biology and medical science... who cares what any religion thinks? Your trying to justify abortion for the same reason your arguing against it.

 

[Dr Grump]

My beliefs tell me that if that is the case, and he knows us before we are born....BTW, I do believe life begins at conception, then those aborted babies are at Gods side in Heaven. Never having been born, but still loved by God.

Abortion is a national tragedy.

do you understand that other religions don't believe that and by trying to legislate it you're trying to legislate your religious beliefs?

no problem with your belief... as long as you don't impose it on others.

aside from the fact that legislation against abortion would be based on biology and medical science... who cares what any religion thinks? Your trying to justify abortion for the same reason your arguing against it.

A large majority of anti-abortionists think the way they do because of their religion. To say otherwise is not only disingenuous, but wrong.

 

[BenNatuf]

Oh, please, please, please. Point out the ignorance in my posts...take your time....

already did----take any living being out of it's environment and it will die. Using that as some kind of "proof" for abortion is absurd.

Is that all you an come up with? pppffffttt. I used it to illustrate how absurd HER argument was, not to reinforce mine...

So the best you can do to counter the point is to ignore it...

got it!

 

[BenNatuf]

The stain of origional sin is not the act of sinning, it is the propensity to do so in their human nature. You want to kick around Catholics take it to the Religion forum.

So, what sin did they commit

And Ill ask it in whatever forum I want to.....you're the one who started talking about sin....

No she's not. That was bought up long before she posted in the thread by some other anti religious nut who has no ability to discern what it is the threads about... which has nothing to do with sin.

 

[Dr Grump]

The stain of origional sin is not the act of sinning, it is the propensity to do so in their human nature. You want to kick around Catholics take it to the Religion forum.

So, what sin did they commit

And Ill ask it in whatever forum I want to.....you're the one who started talking about sin....

No she's not. That was bought up long before she posted in the thread by some other anti religious nut who has no ability to discern what it is the threads about... which has nothing to do with sin.

She starting rabbiting on about it, so I ran with it...