Abortions: Should Women be Allowed to Choose?

[NYcarbineer]

If someone said:

I think infanticide is murder, but I don't want to treat women who kill their infants as murderers...

you'd think that person was insane, every one of you would.

But if someone says:

I think abortion is murder, but I don't want to treat women who have abortions as murderers...

some of you think that makes perfect sense...

No, it doesn't. YOU people are just as insane.

 

[Wicked Jester]

[True that, contraception doesn't always work, and it's a sad fact that many women use abortion as their main method of birth control.....And it's quite obvious that many women are ignorant of how their own bodies work.....And then are those that understand full well how their bodies work, yet they won't step up and take responsibility for their actions when their bodies produce human life. Nope, it's much easier to kill the inconvient lil' bastards, then it is to step up and do the right thing, and take resposibilty for their actions.

I consider terminating a pregnancy that you aren't ready for to be stepping up and doing the right thing.

But here's a reality. It isn't that people don't know how their bodies work. It's that people are fallible.

For instance, I don't always remember to take my blood pressure medicine every day. I should. I don't.

The problem is, in your philosophy, a fetus is a human life. In some people, it isn't. So the sensible solution is, you don't force people to carry babies they don't want, and they won't force you to have abortions you don't want. I think this is referred to as "Freedom", something you conservatives claim you are for when it's the ability of rich people to screw over the people who work for them.

Here's the thing, I'm a pragmatist. I would be all for there being less abortions, but you don't get there by outlawing them. Every country that has tried has failed miserably.

You do it by educating people, by providing support, etc.

But that would be the discussion we would be having if we were having a sensible conversation about how to have less abortion.

This is a conversation about how you use religion as an excuse for your misogyny.

Yeah, we know, you hate religion, that's your problem......Fact of the matter is, my religion has nothing to do with my feelings on the issue. It's about what is right, period.

Now, how about the "Freedom" of the unborn, who have no choice in the matter, yet may suffer being brutally killed in the womb by a sick psychopath with doctors credentials, at the request of a heartless, irresponsible moron?

This is the twenty first century, the education is already there. A woman damn sure knows the possible ramifications of spreading her legs, yet many are unwilling to take responsibility for their actions, so they use abortion as their back up birth control, and it's beyond disgusting,.....as are those who support it, and claim that these women are somehow victims who deserve sympathy.

Sorry but, the sympathy goes 100% to the innocent life who was brutally killed, and had no "choice" whatsoever in the matter.

Anyhow, it's Easter Sunday, and it's time to get ready to go to church, pay respects, and come home to prepare the awesome dinner we have planned.....Definitely a much more pleasant experience than discussing the wanton killing of innocent life with a bunch of damn ghouls, and other assorted lunatics.

 

[paperview]

If people who wish to outlaw abortion were honest, they would have to admit that they would be forcing the government to turn a woman into an incubator against her will.

I mean, follow through with your thought that if a woman gets pregnant, whether through force or seduction, stupidity or naivety - if she INSISTS on getting an abortion, and it is against the law, how do you stop her?

You would have to consider that the government would then need to incarcerate her through the term to "protect the fetus." How do we do this? County jail, special hospitals? Do we tie her to the bed till she submits and contracts? Would an electronic ankle bracelet suffice?

I'm not being flip here. I mean, seriously, if you are honest, you will have to admit, if the anti-choice crowd had their way we will be walking a road towards state control of a woman's uterus.

I'm not going to let that happen.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Whoa, hold on there. Who said anything about prison?

I'm just against abortions. If a woman gets pregnant then she has the baby. It's as simple that.

If she doesn't want the baby she can give him or her up for adoption. She should have thought of that before she chose to have sex.

I’m opposed to abortion as well – I know of no one who ‘supports’ abortion.

But:

“And if we can all agree that every human being is born with the inherent right to live, then abortions are clear violations of this right. As the baby is never consulted with when abortions are decided.”

It’s logical to infer you seek to have the practice banned, when you talk of rights being ‘violated.’

So again: do you accept settled law concerning privacy rights, and what are your proposals to end abortion that don’t include violating those rights.

To me, the right to live of any human being comes before anyones "right to privacy."

Unsurprisingly, you’ve not answered the question.

We can only assume, therefore, given your above response, that you advocate criminalizing the practice, and placing women and their doctors in prison, as already noted.

 

[Wicked Jester]

But you must resort to childish name calling if someone has a different opinion.

This isn't Ireland.....This is a free country, and we have a beautiful thing called the 1st amendment, and I damn sure use it, regularly, lib.

Like I said, if you don't like it, go cry me a raging river, lib.....I really don't give a rats ass what some ex-pat libprog thinks.

Ireland is freer than the US. And of course you do not listen to anyone who has a different opinion than you, hence your ignorance.

LMAO!

Yeah, you live in a country where the authorities can come busting through your doors, unanounced, for whatever reason they want.....Yeah, you're free alright!

Christ, talk about fucking ignorance.....You obviously wallow in it.

Anyhow, Happy Easter!

 

[Esmeralda]

If people who wish to outlaw abortion were honest, they would have to admit that they would be forcing the government to turn a woman into an incubator against her will.

I mean, follow through with your thought that if a woman gets pregnant, whether through force or seduction, stupidity or naivety - if she INSISTS on getting an abortion, and it is against the law, how do you stop her?

You would have to consider that the government would then need to incarcerate her through the term to "protect the fetus." How do we do this? County jail, special hospitals? Do we tie her to the bed till she submits and contracts? Would an electronic ankle bracelet suffice?

I'm not being flip here. I mean, seriously, if you are honest, you will have to admit, if the anti-choice crowd had their way we will be walking a road towards state control of a woman's uterus.I'm not going to let that happen.

If abortion is illegal, state control of a woman's uterus is exactly what it is. It makes it illegal for her to make her own choices about her uterus. If she seeks an abortion, it is going to be illegal, and the State can prosecute her and the abortionist. And, of course, under those circumstances (illegal abortions), women would often die or be unintentionally sterilized.

This argument they make that women have multiple abortions: pure myth. The number of women who do that is so small it has nothing to do with this issue.

 

[Freewill]

I'm really in over my head with you, huh? You are too sharp for me.

When do YOU think a fetus becomes a human being?

Glad you admit what everyone else knows.

Well if you quit spouting liberal BS maybe I wouldn't keep asking you questions you don't answer. When is unborn child worthy of protection? That is for the law to decide. But that time certainly is not after the unborn child is born, I don't believe there is one law that makes such a distinction. Only liberals that wish to sooth their conscience make such statements.

If we are going to send a drunken conservative who wrecks his car and kills an unborn child (fetus to you) to jail then lets be consistent in definitions.

Then you tell us, under the law as you would like to have it, how old need the fetus be before the woman who has the abortion should be prosecuted for murder?

Where did I say anything about a law other then it is the law now that abortion is legal? And the definition of when a unborn child is protected is set by the law?

My opinion is that we let women know the truth not the hogwash the liberal left wants to feed them. We tell them that the life within them is a life not a blob of cells that the liberal left likes to claim. We give them a sonogram so they know for certain of what they are doing. We explain to the minorities the whole reason Planned Parenthood was started, it wasn't to make their life better it was to make less of them.

Tell the truth then let women make a freewill choice, I believe most will then make the right choice.

My whole focus with you is the misinformation you keep saying about when is a "fetus" a baby worth protection. There is nothing in any study, journal, scientific paper or anywhere that supports your life after birth BS. I specifically mentioned that the time is determined by law removing all connotation that it was anything but a moral decision based on morality not anything else and yes we legislate morality every single day.

You apparently have the idea that freewill is doing and believing exactly as you do, sorry you are wrong.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The primary problem that nutters have with this issue is that they consider a fetus to be a human being.

Get that fixed.....and you can turn your attention to preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place as your best method to reduce the number of abortions.

Maybe you could enlighten us on when an unborn child becomes human. 1 years? 6 months? 1 min? What's the difference between a 1 min old baby and one due in 1 min?

Maybe it is your goulish attitude that needs fixed.

The Casey Court already addressed that issue over two decades ago:

To protect the central right recognized by Roe v. Wade while at the same time accommodating the State's profound interest in potential life, we will employ the undue burden analysis as explained in this opinion. An undue burden exists, and therefore a provision of law is invalid, if its purpose or effect is to place a substantial obstacle in the path of a woman seeking an abortion before the fetus attains viability.

Our adoption of the undue burden analysis does not disturb the central holding of Roe v. Wade, and we reaffirm that holding. Regardless of whether exceptions are made for particular circumstances, a State may not prohibit any woman from making the ultimate decision to terminate her pregnancy before viability.

Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pa. v. Casey, 505 U.S. 833 (1992)

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

If people who wish to outlaw abortion were honest, they would have to admit that they would be forcing the government to turn a woman into an incubator against her will.

I mean, follow through with your thought that if a woman gets pregnant, whether through force or seduction, stupidity or naivety - if she INSISTS on getting an abortion, and it is against the law, how do you stop her?

You would have to consider that the government would then need to incarcerate her through the term to "protect the fetus." How do we do this? County jail, special hospitals? Do we tie her to the bed till she submits and contracts? Would an electronic ankle bracelet suffice?

I'm not being flip here. I mean, seriously, if you are honest, you will have to admit, if the anti-choice crowd had their way we will be walking a road towards state control of a woman's uterus.

I'm not going to let that happen.

All good and valid questions that those opposed to privacy rights refuse to answer, and perhaps for good reason.

For example, would a woman be required to ‘register’ her pregnancy with the state, and meet with a state official periodically, not unlike an ex-con meeting with his parole officer?

With regard to miscarriages, will the woman be subject to a criminal investigation?

And if convicted of the crime of ‘attempted abortion,’ and the woman is forced to give birth to her child in prison, what will become of the child while she serves her sentence and later when she’s released, as certainly a child cannot be returned to a mother who attempted to ‘murder’ him.’

With regard to the above and more, we see the fundamental wisdom of the courts to keep this a privacy rights issue, with restrictions placed on the state, thus requiring opponents of abortion to seek more effective ways to end the practice that don’t involve violating the Constitution and the privacy rights of women.

 

[NoNukes]

This isn't Ireland.....This is a free country, and we have a beautiful thing called the 1st amendment, and I damn sure use it, regularly, lib.

Like I said, if you don't like it, go cry me a raging river, lib.....I really don't give a rats ass what some ex-pat libprog thinks.

Ireland is freer than the US. And of course you do not listen to anyone who has a different opinion than you, hence your ignorance.

LMAO!

Yeah, you live in a country where the authorities can come busting through your doors, unanounced, for whatever reason they want.....Yeah, you're free alright!

Christ, talk about fucking ignorance.....You obviously wallow in it.

Anyhow, Happy Easter!

Once again, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Happy Easter, and enjoy that dinner.

 

[NoNukes]

Whoa, hold on there. Who said anything about prison?

I'm just against abortions. If a woman gets pregnant then she has the baby. It's as simple that.

If she doesn't want the baby she can give him or her up for adoption. She should have thought of that before she chose to have sex.

Actually I think what you are against is manslaughter or murder. But right now abortion is neither so the argument is an argument of morality, unless laws change. It is a sad state of affairs that we have convinced the minorities that abortion is the answer, but that has been the goal of Planned Parenthood from the beginning.

The good thing is that the number of abortions are decreasing. Maybe because of better access by minorities to birth control. Maybue through education. Maybe because women are finding out the truth. At any rate here are the reasons for abortion from 2004.

A 2004 study by the Guttmacher Institute reported that women listed the following amongst their reasons for choosing to have an abortion:[44]
74% Having a baby would dramatically change my life
73% Cannot afford a baby now
48% Do not want to be a single mother or having relationship problems
38% Have completed my childbearing
32% Not ready for a(nother) child
25% Do not want people to know I had sex or got pregnant
22% Do not feel mature enough to raise a(nother) child
14% Husband or partner wants me to have an abortion
13% Possible problems affecting the health of the fetus
12% Concerns about my health
6% Parents want me to have an abortion
1% Was a victim of rape
less than 0.5% Became pregnant as a result of incest

Abortion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why is it then, if someone murders a pregnant woman and her "fetus" that person is charged with murder of both the woman and the child? Why the child if that child is nothing but a lump of nothing? But yet a woman can end the life of that child with no consequences?

Because the person committed murder. Abortion is not murder.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Glad you admit what everyone else knows.

Well if you quit spouting liberal BS maybe I wouldn't keep asking you questions you don't answer. When is unborn child worthy of protection? That is for the law to decide. But that time certainly is not after the unborn child is born, I don't believe there is one law that makes such a distinction. Only liberals that wish to sooth their conscience make such statements.

If we are going to send a drunken conservative who wrecks his car and kills an unborn child (fetus to you) to jail then lets be consistent in definitions.

Then you tell us, under the law as you would like to have it, how old need the fetus be before the woman who has the abortion should be prosecuted for murder?

Where did I say anything about a law other then it is the law now that abortion is legal? And the definition of when a unborn child is protected is set by the law?

My opinion is that we let women know the truth not the hogwash the liberal left wants to feed them. We tell them that the life within them is a life not a blob of cells that the liberal left likes to claim. We give them a sonogram so they know for certain of what they are doing. We explain to the minorities the whole reason Planned Parenthood was started, it wasn't to make their life better it was to make less of them.

Tell the truth then let women make a freewill choice, I believe most will then make the right choice.

My whole focus with you is the misinformation you keep saying about when is a "fetus" a baby worth protection. There is nothing in any study, journal, scientific paper or anywhere that supports your life after birth BS. I specifically mentioned that the time is determined by law removing all connotation that it was anything but a moral decision based on morality not anything else and yes we legislate morality every single day.

You apparently have the idea that freewill is doing and believing exactly as you do, sorry you are wrong.

To believe that abortion should be legal is to believe that the fetus is not the same as a born person.

You believe abortion should be legal, therefore you don't even believe the crap coming from your own mouth about fetuses.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Then you tell us, under the law as you would like to have it, how old need the fetus be before the woman who has the abortion should be prosecuted for murder?

Where did I say anything about a law other then it is the law now that abortion is legal? And the definition of when a unborn child is protected is set by the law?

My opinion is that we let women know the truth not the hogwash the liberal left wants to feed them. We tell them that the life within them is a life not a blob of cells that the liberal left likes to claim. We give them a sonogram so they know for certain of what they are doing. We explain to the minorities the whole reason Planned Parenthood was started, it wasn't to make their life better it was to make less of them.

Tell the truth then let women make a freewill choice, I believe most will then make the right choice.

My whole focus with you is the misinformation you keep saying about when is a "fetus" a baby worth protection. There is nothing in any study, journal, scientific paper or anywhere that supports your life after birth BS. I specifically mentioned that the time is determined by law removing all connotation that it was anything but a moral decision based on morality not anything else and yes we legislate morality every single day.

You apparently have the idea that freewill is doing and believing exactly as you do, sorry you are wrong.

To believe that abortion should be legal is to believe that the fetus is not the same as a born person.

You believe abortion should be legal, therefore you don't even believe the crap coming from your own mouth about fetuses.

Conservatives are consistent in being inconsistent.

 

[Dugdale_Jukes]

The list of countries where abortion is illegal:

Brazil, Colombia, Chile, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Venezuela,
Angola, Benin, Central African Rep.Chad, Congo, Côte d'Ivoire, Dem. Rep. of Congo, Gabon, Guinea- Bissau, Kenya, Lesotho, Madagascar, Mali, Mauretania, Mauritius, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Somalia, Tanzania, Togo, Uganda.
Afghanistan, Egypt, Iran, Lebanon, Libya, Oman, Sudan (r), Syria, United Arab Emirates, Yemen.
Bangladesh, Indonesia, Laos, Myanmar, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Sri Lanka.\\\

Notice a common string there?

Yes. Every one of them is a filthy stinking heathen or papist hellhole where the law against abortion is strictly to preserve domestic access to cheap labor.

I am laughing out loud at halfwit America's choice of pals.

Given that nutballs want to reduce America to the standards above, it is no wonder nutballs knock Europe where labor has rights and women are free to disdain moral scum who would chain them to a bad night.

 

[JoeB131]

[

If a street thug shoots a pregnant woman in the belly and kills both the mother and the child it's murder times two. In the case of Kermit Gosnell, he botches an abortion and kills the mother and the child it's just murder of the mother.

Because we have a morally confused culture that wants to separate bad murders from good murders.

Fetal Homicide laws should be scrapped regardless of who does them.

If the mother dies, it's murder. If the mother lives, it's assault. Period.

Oh, guess who agrees with me? The BIBLE!!!!

Exodus 21:22-25 When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

 

[JustSomeGuy]

Then you tell us, under the law as you would like to have it, how old need the fetus be before the woman who has the abortion should be prosecuted for murder?

Where did I say anything about a law other then it is the law now that abortion is legal? And the definition of when a unborn child is protected is set by the law?

My opinion is that we let women know the truth not the hogwash the liberal left wants to feed them. We tell them that the life within them is a life not a blob of cells that the liberal left likes to claim. We give them a sonogram so they know for certain of what they are doing. We explain to the minorities the whole reason Planned Parenthood was started, it wasn't to make their life better it was to make less of them.

Tell the truth then let women make a freewill choice, I believe most will then make the right choice.

My whole focus with you is the misinformation you keep saying about when is a "fetus" a baby worth protection. There is nothing in any study, journal, scientific paper or anywhere that supports your life after birth BS. I specifically mentioned that the time is determined by law removing all connotation that it was anything but a moral decision based on morality not anything else and yes we legislate morality every single day.

You apparently have the idea that freewill is doing and believing exactly as you do, sorry you are wrong.

To believe that abortion should be legal is to believe that the fetus is not the same as a born person.

You believe abortion should be legal, therefore you don't even believe the crap coming from your own mouth about fetuses.

False dichotomy. If, say, you support a person's right to self-defense, does that mean you also support wanton murder?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Whoa, hold on there. Who said anything about prison?

I'm just against abortions. If a woman gets pregnant then she has the baby. It's as simple that.

If she doesn't want the baby she can give him or her up for adoption. She should have thought of that before she chose to have sex.

Actually I think what you are against is manslaughter or murder. But right now abortion is neither so the argument is an argument of morality, unless laws change. It is a sad state of affairs that we have convinced the minorities that abortion is the answer, but that has been the goal of Planned Parenthood from the beginning.

The good thing is that the number of abortions are decreasing. Maybe because of better access by minorities to birth control. Maybe through education. Maybe because women are finding out the truth. At any rate here are the reasons for abortion from 2004.

A 2004 study by the Guttmacher Institute reported that women listed the following amongst their reasons for choosing to have an abortion:[44]
74% Having a baby would dramatically change my life
73% Cannot afford a baby now
48% Do not want to be a single mother or having relationship problems
38% Have completed my childbearing
32% Not ready for a(nother) child
25% Do not want people to know I had sex or got pregnant
22% Do not feel mature enough to raise a(nother) child
14% Husband or partner wants me to have an abortion
13% Possible problems affecting the health of the fetus
12% Concerns about my health
6% Parents want me to have an abortion
1% Was a victim of rape
less than 0.5% Became pregnant as a result of incest

Abortion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why is it then, if someone murders a pregnant woman and her "fetus" that person is charged with murder of both the woman and the child? Why the child if that child is nothing but a lump of nothing? But yet a woman can end the life of that child with no consequences?

Because you don’t understand the difference between civil law and criminal law.

 

[editec]

Do you think you own your own bodies, boys?

You do don't you?

Well so do women.

Get over it.

 

[JustSomeGuy]

I'm pretty sure no one "owns" their own body unless, of course, you're going to argue dualism (i.e., you exist before you exist). And that's without pointing out that no one has complete rule to use and do to their body as they see fit as it is. I'm not sure why pro-choicers love to ignore the latter, but it's comical (especially when you see the same people using that line simultaneously trying to ban someone from smoking or drinking sugary drinks).

 

[NYcarbineer]

Where did I say anything about a law other then it is the law now that abortion is legal? And the definition of when a unborn child is protected is set by the law?

My opinion is that we let women know the truth not the hogwash the liberal left wants to feed them. We tell them that the life within them is a life not a blob of cells that the liberal left likes to claim. We give them a sonogram so they know for certain of what they are doing. We explain to the minorities the whole reason Planned Parenthood was started, it wasn't to make their life better it was to make less of them.

Tell the truth then let women make a freewill choice, I believe most will then make the right choice.

My whole focus with you is the misinformation you keep saying about when is a "fetus" a baby worth protection. There is nothing in any study, journal, scientific paper or anywhere that supports your life after birth BS. I specifically mentioned that the time is determined by law removing all connotation that it was anything but a moral decision based on morality not anything else and yes we legislate morality every single day.

You apparently have the idea that freewill is doing and believing exactly as you do, sorry you are wrong.

To believe that abortion should be legal is to believe that the fetus is not the same as a born person.

You believe abortion should be legal, therefore you don't even believe the crap coming from your own mouth about fetuses.

False dichotomy. If, say, you support a person's right to self-defense, does that mean you also support wanton murder?

There is no self-defense involved in an abortion that isn't being performed to protect the life or health of the mother. Think before you post, as a courtesy to those of us who do.