Adam sinned, not Eve. Why did Yahweh punish an innocent Eve?

[ding]

If Yahweh cannot save us all as scriptures show his will to be, he is not worthy of us.

Ummmm.... Jesus

 

[GreatestIam]

It was allegorical. Relax. But we aren't punished for disobeying God. We punish ourselves for failing to take accountability when we disobey God.

Or even obey, if you are a moral person, which you are not.

You have to give up your accountability and lay it on Jesus if you want to be saved. You have to sin to be saved.


On Jesus dying for Christians. Try to think in a moral way.

It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.

Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are promoting doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fiber as Yahweh. Tsk tsk.

Regards
DL

 

[ding]

Or even obey, if you are a moral person, which you are not.

You have to give up your accountability and lay it on Jesus if you want to be saved. You have to sin to be saved.


On Jesus dying for Christians. Try to think in a moral way.

It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.

Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are promoting doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fiber as Yahweh. Tsk tsk.

Regards
DL

 

[onefour1]

Which they did, and were murdered by neglect for.

Yes, they became subject to death, which without doing so would never have been able to acquire the knowledge needed to become like God in that way. They knew this before voluntarily choosing to come to earth and experiencing mortality but also knowing that they would be resurrected to enjoy immortality forever and ever. So it become like any other experience where we learn from it and it doesn't become permanent. You classify it as murder, why not suicide? I don't see it as either because they will live forever and ever in an immortal body of flesh and bones. I see it as just a knowledge and wisdom gaining experience.

Which they could not decide if it was good or evil, given they had yet to consume any knowledge of those.

That's why God would give them the decision before coming to this earth when they had a full knowledge of God and what all the benefits and losses would be. They knew they would eventually be resurrected and live forever as an immortal and would also have the opportunity to once again live in God's presence. We all made a fully informed decision.

???
Gen3;22 Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;

That looks like more spiritual life, not death, and A & E did not die that day.

Any other issues can be looked at like mens rea, should you understand the story reasonably to this point.

Yes, they became more like God knowing good and evil thus having a greater knowledge and understanding of things.

The spiritual death was the cutting Adam and Eve off from the presence of God. The gaining of greater knowledge was definitely a step in becoming more like God. Adam and Eve died that very day spiritually and they did die physically according to a day of the Lord. Adam and Eve had not yet received their time of reckoning and were still under the Lord's time.

2 Peter 3:8​

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Adam died at 930 years of age according to our reckoning but died that very day according to the Lord's reckoning of time.

Men's rea absolves them both, if you understand the law of your land.

The bible only absolves Eve by pointing to the deception she could not fight as it was Yahweh's own power being used by Satan.

It was definitely a learning experience for Eve but like I pointed out above, the choice to enter the fall of mankind was made prior to ever coming to the earth. She became subject to the fall as well as Adam and began their mortal experience. They both received what they truly wanted and the great mortal experience began at that time. Had Adam and Eve had the full knowledge as they did before coming to the earth, they would have made the same decision they did before coming to the earth. Satan had no more power than to simply tempt Eve. Eve had the power to reject Satan and was not forced to succomb to him.

 

[LittleNipper]

Or even obey, if you are a moral person, which you are not.

You have to give up your accountability and lay it on Jesus if you want to be saved. You have to sin to be saved.


On Jesus dying for Christians. Try to think in a moral way.

It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.

Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are promoting doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fiber as Yahweh. Tsk tsk.

Regards
DL

Did you ever take anything that didn't belong to you? That makes you a THIEF
Did you ever look with lust at someone else? That makes you a FORNICATOR and or an ADULTERER
Did you ever disobey your parents? That makes you an INGRATE
Did you ever wish anybody dead? That makes you a MURDERER

You deserve whatever you get. It is only by GOD's grace that you can be forgiven. So please don't be so smug. You obviously don't have a leg to stand on ------ and neither do I...

 

[GreatestIam]

Nothing to say on the issue makes you a troll and a fool.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

They knew this before voluntarily choosing to come to earth and

Go away with your fantasy of an original fantasy.

I speak logos, not mythos garbage.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

Did you ever take anything that didn't belong to you? That makes you a THIEF
Did you ever look with lust at someone else? That makes you a FORNICATOR and or an ADULTERER
Did you ever disobey your parents? That makes you an INGRATE
Did you ever wish anybody dead? That makes you a MURDERER

You deserve whatever you get. It is only by GOD's grace that you can be forgiven. So please don't be so smug. You obviously don't have a leg to stand on ------ and neither do I...

Only immoral fools will think that grace from a genocidal prick is good grace.

Your bible does show Yahweh giving the grace to believe to us, stupid as that sounds, as it really screws up our free will.

As the story of Pharaoh having his heart hardened against his will, shows that your theology denies us free will.

Regards
DL

 

[ding]

Nothing to say on the issue makes you a troll and a fool.

Regards
DL

Donall and Conall proved you were an atheist in under 45 seconds.

 

[onefour1]

Only fools see A& E as knowing what was good or evil before they ate from it.

If I ask you to choose between poison and good food, without you knowing the words I use to describe them, you can choose, but is it an intelligent choice or just a shot in the dark?

That is why the decision was given to them before coming to this earth.

Yes, showing how sick Yahweh the infanticidal prick is.

Tell us, if you had to have a blood sacrifice, would you step up or send your child to be murdered?

If you are moral, you would step up.

First off, Yahweh is Jesus Christ and not God the Father. God the Father is an exalted being who has a resurrected body of flesh and bones and cannot die. Thus it was critical that the atonement be done by one who could come to this earth and take on a body that could die and be resurrected. Since the Father could not fulfill this roll, it was given to his firstborn son who was a spirit being. Again your lack of understanding the true situation has you full of pride and insulting God.

Tried??
She put her hand out and Adam wisely shut up and just ate.

So A & E furthered gods plan, according to you, if I read you correctly, and god still murdered them by neglect.

Quite the reward.

You have added a lot to the story to make it work for you and you bible says not to do that.

Regards
DL

Yes, Eve tried and succeeded. Adam reasoned that God created Eve to a constant companion to him and Eve told Adam that she would be cast out of the garden and not be with him. Adam determined that it must be so and partook of the fruit.

So yes Adam and Even furthered God's plan to have his children progress by going through a mortal existence and learning good from evil. Part of that mortal experience was to enter a fallen state where you are separated from God and to experience death as well. Like I said before, you look at it as murder but God guarantees resurrection to an immortal state so it is only a temporary death. Nothing permanent.

Your problem is that you look upon this temporal existence as the end all be all of existence. It is not! God has an eternal perspective and you have a temporal perspective. They reward that Adam and Eve get in the end is immortality and eternal life. They come to understand death by experience and end up living forever and ever and never die again. That is the reward of coming to this life. It is quite the reward, if I do say so myself!

I have not added anything but only give to you what I received through the revealed revelations of God as recorded in all his various revelations.

 

[Clyde 154]

Adam sinned, not Eve. Why did Yahweh punish an innocent Eve?

Be you a believer or not, your life has been affected by the mainstream religions and the myth of Adam and Eve. It is the source of Christian homophobia and misogyny.

There are many strange things in the myth of Adam and Eve.
Was Adam born alone or first?
If Adam was created in God’s image and likeness, who is woman modeled after?
Satan is depicted in part as a woman.

Who was she modeled on and why female? Likely because of evolution and women being men’s biological prize.

In law, to be punished, one must be shown to have evil intent or an evil mind. Latin, Men’s Rea.

This is what human justice is based on.

Was Eve innocent, given that she had no evil intent?

Regards
DL

Simple answers to simple minded questions. 1. Its obvious that you don't accept the truth found in the Holy Scripture...yet you demand the right to judge others based upon your opinion of what the scriptures state.....even though you self confess they are not in the least factual.....you call it MYTH. Strange argument.....no? Then again, human secularism is not eat up with logic and reason.....its all based upon emotional bigotry.

2. Of course Adam was created........ He was never BORN (which begs to ask the question.......did he have a belly button?)
God "made" Adam from the elements found on earth (Genesis 1:26,27,32). Man and Woman was made in the image of God. God is a spirit.....thus, the image that compares man to God is his Spiritual Image where mankind, just like God can freely make his own decisions between right and wrong.)

Read, comprehend, "Now we received not the spirit of the world but the spirit which is of God, THAT WE MIGHT KNOW THE THINGS THAT ARE FREELY GIVEN TO US OF GOD." -- 1 Cor. 2:12 John 24 (God is a SPIRIT....") Man was created from the natural elements of the earth......God breathed His spirit into man and woman and animated this lifeless group of elements (Genesis 2:7)

As far as Satan representing any FEMALE..........Satan uses who allows him to use them.....He is a liar and the Father of LIES. One is to study and not allow themselves to be snared by Satan's deceptive method.....such as Both Adam and Eve were deceived. (2 Cor. 2:11) Its IGNORANCE that allows Satan to reign in this life.

Satan was created by God before mankind was created.

Who was Eve modeled after ? (Genesis 2:22) Eve was created from the DNA of ADAM.......Adam shared all His DNA with EVE except the capacity of the Male to determine the sex (gender) of all natural births. She was called EVE because she is the mother of all living......yet its Adam's DNA that determines gender. (Genesis 3:20). It takes 2 to reproduce........Adam and STEVE cannot reproduce. If homosexuality were natural and normal.........mankind would have been created as an ASEXUAL being.......having the need for only 1 gender.

God has no respect of person..........When Adam and Eve sinned both had to pay the price of their sin.........DEATH, just like very person on earth is now subject to physical death.

 

[onefour1]

If you know this, show the facts that led you to know this.

I said facts, not hear say.

Regards
DL

Let me rephrase that for you. We know from the revelations of God as recorded in the Bible and other revelations that our spirits pre-existed this earth. You may not believe those things but your disbelief does not make them any less true.

 

[onefour1]

Go away with your fantasy of an original fantasy.

I speak logos, not mythos garbage.

Regards
DL

What you speak is ignorance and blasphemy.

 

[donttread]

Adam sinned, not Eve. Why did Yahweh punish an innocent Eve?

Be you a believer or not, your life has been affected by the mainstream religions and the myth of Adam and Eve. It is the source of Christian homophobia and misogyny.

There are many strange things in the myth of Adam and Eve.
Was Adam born alone or first?
If Adam was created in God’s image and likeness, who is woman modeled after?
Satan is depicted in part as a woman.

Who was she modeled on and why female? Likely because of evolution and women being men’s biological prize.

In law, to be punished, one must be shown to have evil intent or an evil mind. Latin, Men’s Rea.

This is what human justice is based on.

Was Eve innocent, given that she had no evil intent?

Regards
DL

Metaphor. It wasn't an apple she really tempted him with. God was going to punish Adam and then he remembered the testosterone level he had burdened Adam with and went with it being eve's fault.

 

[norwegen]

Not when you capitalize adam the way you have been.

Regardless, I am done with this issue here.

I am here to discuss morals and justice. Not the meaning of words.

Regards
DL

From my vantage point, your discussion of morals and justice is not based on the Adam and Eve story.

You seem to like to invoke the Bible and try to squeeze it into your own worldview so you can call God a genocidal and amoral prick.

 

[LittleNipper]

Only immoral fools will think that grace from a genocidal prick is good grace.

Your bible does show Yahweh giving the grace to believe to us, stupid as that sounds, as it really screws up our free will.

As the story of Pharaoh having his heart hardened against his will, shows that your theology denies us free will.

Regards
DL

Who are you that GOD should answer you insults? You will spend eternity exactly where you wish to be ----- and at this point that will be far away from GOD. Just remember that once there, you will be in a permanent residence without any influence of GOD whatsoever.

 

[emilynghiem]

Good.

Let's look at the morals shall we. This is where I find out if you are a moral coward or not.

On Jesus dying for Christians. Try to think in a moral way.

It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.

Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are promoting doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fiber as Yahweh. Tsk tsk.

Regards
DL

Thank you GreatestIam for the best explanation and expression of why the literal dynamics of the "sacrifice of Jesus" would never work. You are right, that taking this literally makes no sense!

I have a friend who still scoffs and mocks this "God on a Stick" theology, but never quite explained it as well as you have here. You really help me understand where my friend is coming from, and others who think this literally, who cannot fathom any of this "Jesus business."

My friend makes me laugh at what this "God on a Stick" looks like to others, but you make me feel great compassion and sadness about how horrible this really sounds.

Thank you for this insight which I can use to explain to others who don't understand why the message gets rejected.

I do not see it AT ALL as using "Jesus as projecting blame on a scapegoat". That might be true if Jesus represented the human factor "at fault" -- for example, if people all blamed "white" or "rich" people for the cause of injustice, so that "punishing" a "white or rich" person as a deterrence or reparations for ALL past wrongs blamed on this "group" were atoned for.

That would still be MAN'S justice or Retributive Justice where "punishment" somehow is used to "make up" for the pain and suffering, by INFLICTING it in return.

But that is NOT the meaning of Jesus' sacrifice but actually the very opposite, the nonworking human model for justice by retribution which fails to bring peace.

Christ Jesus as the vehicle for Restorative Justice is taking all the grief and anger over injury and oppression and NOT inflicting that LITERALLY to punish, but instead absorbing and transforming the negative energy into positive love.

Like taking anger and reconfiguring the same degree of energy into compassion.

Or taking sadness and depression and turning this into humility and gratefulness.

People MAY have been projecting emotions and blame on Jesus if you take the trial and crucifixion literally as judgment and punishment for blasphemy, for claiming to be God's sent Messiah or Message for saving all humanity.

When people falsely accuse Jesus or his followers of lying, this IS their own projection of past pain and suffering targeting Christianity. But the blame and responsibility doesn't literally land on "Jesus and Christianity" per se, but on the false teachings and abuses of people who actually did the oppressive acts.

Since the people who LITERALLY committed mass genocides by religious crusades or by tribal racism and slavery to conquer and dominate others by greed and force "are no longer alive" to serve reparations directly, where does that go?

We would NEVER know peace if humanity kept carrying this burden of spiritual debts around and kept warring with "people who represent the tribe at fault who caused this in the past."

So again, the point of Jesus' sacrifice is NOT a literal punishment, but a spiritual process of projecting the collective sin and suffering onto a CENTRAL place where transformation can take place: taking the wrath of hell and turning all that spiritual energy into heavenly peace and blessings.

And we can SEE this transformation in the hearts and minds of people, who BEFORE receiving Jesus were beating themselves up and/or attacking and hurting others, but changed after forgiving and healing and became like lambs, like children again!

Maybe you have not met the true Christians I have that are unbelievably transformed. But given how deeply aggrieved you are about mass injustice on this higher spiritual scale, I can only guess you would be RELIEVED and rejoice to find there are true Christians and true testimonies of transformation out of the dark twisted religion you see wrong with how Christianity has been abused to teach and impose hell on others, and instead has returned people back to living in Heaven as Children of God.

These souls who go through the darkness before being transformed in Christ Jesus tell a MUCH different story than the treacherous evil and injustice you describe abusing Christianity to project blame and punish in the exact opposite ways that are clearly contrary to justice.

I hope I may introduce you to some of these truly reformed in Christ, as a return favor for your enlightening explanations of why projected punishment doesn't work or make sense. This is truly helpful in explaining the difference between Retributive Justice which gets abused by Antichrist approaches and the power of Restorative Justice which focuses on corrections and restoring good faith relations for last justice and peace that brings healing.

You and I both seek the real type of justice based on accountability.

The difference is that you focus on stopping the Retributive approach, where your explanation clearly shows the moral failure in this literal model,
While I focus on how Jesus, the Bible and Christianity is taught to represent the Restorative spiritual approach to Justice and Peace.

Although you and I clash with Retributive types preaching hell instead of heaven, I am very hopeful you will relate as I do with the positive Believers who take the transformative approach.

I believe we share the same drive for perfect truth and justice.

We may not agree with all the ways Christianity has been taught, but by the time we establish the full history and truth, we will agree on God's higher truth that has been obfuscated by all this injustice and false teaching.

I think as many faults can be found in any path or teaching that man's flawed thinking has corrupted and abused.

All the truth will come out, and everything else with it in the wash.

Thank you for bringing more clarity and greater perpective to the picture!

I now appreciate even more what my friend was making fun of, calling this insanity the "God on a Stick" theology he simply cannot stand. No wonder!

More peace and power to you.
May the gracious Wisdom and Compassion of God truly transform the reception of your insights and words to touch more hearts and minds to know repentance and steer away from the myths and traps of Retribution that defies the name of Justice and obscures the true path to Heaven.

Thank you and God bless you!
May all the misunderstandings be eliminated and transformed into true visions of God's heavenly peace and truth established for all humanity.

We have this vision in common that focuses on Heavenly peace.
Let it be received by all people joined as one and set free from past delusion, strife and suffering. In the name of Divine Justice with Mercy Wisdom and Peace. Amen.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Adam sinned, not Eve. Why did Yahweh punish an innocent Eve?

She sinned. She chose to obey Satan over God

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Thanks.

Wisdom is better than stupidity.

Did you have a point or are you agreeing that Yahweh is a lousy judge?

Regards
DL

Whenever I see your username I read it as GreatestIslam

 

[emilynghiem]

RE

You have to give up your accountability and lay it on Jesus if you want to be saved.

No, this is not how forgiveness works GreatestIam It does NOT cancel accountability.

It removes the EMOTIONAL burdens of guilt anger and shame (so we STOP projecting and punishing the sons for the fathers as you cited is against God's ideal morals and justice) and allows us to ACCEPT shared responsibility for mutual faults and corrections.

Again, I hope you find relief and peace in knowing true Christians who practice James 5:16 and take responsibility for corrections: Confessing faults to one another and praying for each other that we may be healed.

Forgiveness given freely by God restores the spiritual connection between God and man to ALLOW God's Justice to enter into our relations through Jesus as representing God's governing authority of Law over man.

This does NOT preempt or cancel debts that man owes to our neighbors harmed by our misconduct, it does NOT replace accountability under natural laws. But faith in Christ Jesus as Restorative Justice gives us unity and strength to fulfill accountability because divine forgiveness gets the negative emotions, stress and retribution out of the way. So people can work together in peace.

If we are going to restore Heavenly paradise on Earth, we need both this spiritual forgiveness, which people achieve by praying in Christ Jesus, and the accountability that comes with it.

It is a common misperception that forgiveness diminishes responsibility for wrongdoing. Thank you for pointing out why faith in Jesus can never be abused this way, or it doesn't make sense!

The reason "the sins of the Father are revisited on the sons" to the fourth and fifth generations is due to the SIN of Unforgiveness which fuels Retribution.

These are called Generational Curses which come to an end by spiritual healing to forgive the past EMOTIONALLY. The physical debts and damages still need to be resolved, and we can manage that better by working together to address and correct wrongs in constructive ways that heal relations.

Thank you DL
I may start a separate thread to share and swap ideas with you on examples that teach the right kind of justice and accountability Christians should support more of!

Yours truly,
Emily