Affirmative action, helpful or harmful?

[JQPublic1]

That's a weak argument. Trying to make a nexus between Freedom of association and applicants seeking employment or admission to a university is a stretch.

You're attempting to place personal choice over administrative perogatives. And SCOTUS has, over the last 50 years, ruled favorably on
both sides of the equation. . The 1978 Bakke vs University of California decision defanged AA by removing quotas. Yet, the spirit of AA was retained by allowing goverment officials and associated civilian contractors freedom to use race to diversify their workforces or student bodies by actively seeking and recruiting qualified underrepresented applicants..That included white women, blacks of any gender, and any other minority.
The key word here is applicants. To me that implies a mandate to bring in qualified minorities to compete and nothing more.
Managers may feel that a qualified black person would enhance profitability in some locations. Universiites, for instance, may be contacted by employers to encourage the recruitment of qualified blacks to meet their objectives of foreign liasons or business operations in Africa or anywhere blacks live around the world.

And you think that's the all and the end of it, huh ?

EARTH TO JQP: Employers, universities, banks, etc use Affirmative Action acistly, rampantly to hire, grant loans, etc to ONLY blacks, whenever they just feel like it. This is called REALITY.

You're the space cadet not me. If blacks were benefitting from AA racial preferences as much as you suggest they do...why is the wealth gap between black and white families widening instead of closing? Why is black unemployment rates always more than twice that of the white unemployment rate?

Don't get me wrong. There are many successful blacks. However, Affirmative Action has not been that great of a factor in improving the economic status of the black community as a whole. But even there you begrudge any thing you percieve being done to level the playing field for your fellow black Americans.

1. Where is your protests against white women, Asians, and others who have benefitted more from Affirmative Action than blacks could ever dream of?
2. High achieving Asians are being denied admission to prestigious institutions that offer preference to less qualified Whites. Meritocracy ? What a sham...

A 2009 Princeton study showed that Asians had to score a hundred and forty points higher on the S.A.T. than whites to have the same chance of admission to top universities.

 

[Kosh]

Just saw this video in my feed and was quite shocked at the stats it puts forward.

Obama is proof that it is very harmful!

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Uhhhh, yeah.

I have no idea WTF you're talking about or what kind of comparison you're trying to make. Whatever it is though was an utter failure.

Of you have a problem with blacks move out of Cleveland get into you truck and drive until you find some all white town in Montana.

Well, that's the problem; too many whites ran instead of fighting back. Mostly liberal whites, but whites nonetheless.

I guess that's black America. If you don't appreciate the crime, the filth, the noise, just find someplace else to move. We are here now and we are hell bent on destroying everything whitey created. So just move. But give it time, and after we destroyed where you lived, we will move to where you live now and destroy that as well.

This is part of East Cleveland which is 93 prcent black.

Here is a picture of a home in a white part of Cleveland.

The entire city of Cleveland went down because of a decline in manufacturing j jobs.

But let us read what another Cleveland citizen who is not a racist piece of shit has to say about this.

When I arrived in April of 1968 the city’s population was about 750,000. The 1970 U. S. Census established that figure. It had been 876,000 in 1960.

Our decline, already in progress, since has been precipitous and severe. And damaging. And painful.

I believe the period I observed had a dramatic and lasting impact on what happened to Cleveland in the past 45 years. It has been a period pockmarked with selfish schemes that put profit ahead of community betterment.

What were some of the causes?

There were the causes that most cities encounter of urban sprawl, the construction of highways through city neighborhoods and the desire for newer housing and, of course, better schools. All aided urban flight.

In Cleveland, however, I think other civic decisions had an instrumental effect on the city, its decline and ruinous state.

I can say that in the 45 years I’ve been here it seems that the main thrust of civic life — directed by those with power — has been to revive downtown. Little attention has been paid to the rest of the city. The University Circle also got attention. Downtown to city leaders — most of whom don’t live in the city — IS the city. That, I imagine, is because they look at the city primarily in commercial terms. Downtown has been a place of business and commerce.

I’ve continually observed this attitude of selfishness of the Corporate Elite. It has revealed itself over and over again.

More.

In 1966 the U. S. Civil Right Commission held hearings in Cleveland. Some of what they found even shocked blacks.

For example, between 1960-65 — as I and a CWRU professor wrote in The Nation — “the number of poverty families in every Negro planning area increased, and the median income slumped. In Hough, median income skidded from $4,732 to $3,966, and two other areas with 60,000 Negroes, had median incomes lower than Hough’s.”

Other figures from the Rights Commission study revealed disturbing facts of discrimination. The building trades, for example, had 13 Negroes among 11,500 workers in five major construction trades; only 43 Negroes were among the 1,350 apprentice trainings in federally sponsored programs in 1965; unemployment among young Negro males was at 58 percent. Racism raged as demands for change rose.

Yet the policies pursued by Cleveland leaders simply added to the problems. In particular, the vast urban renewal program pushed by the private sector and spurred by foundation funds made matters worse by causing a forced movement of blacks without adequate replacement housing. The city embarked on six major urban renewal projects, with a major effort downtown called Erieview. Ironically, Erieview still is not completed.

Cleveland leaders didn’t understand or likely care about the plight of blacks. They pursued urban renewal that exacerbated the severity of urban problems. Further, they didn’t care much about the Cleveland school system. Indeed, the segregation of schools intensified just as the civil rights movement here began to move. It made for nasty times here.

Decisions in this period, I believe, created the Cleveland we have today. And its problems.

More.

James C. Davis, managing partner of Cleveland’s second largest law firm – Squire, Sanders & Dempsey – gave a speech to assess Cleveland’s problem. I doubt if it was helpful.

Without a touch of irony, Davis blamed white ethnics for Cleveland’s racial problems. His speech to the Cleveland Bar Association in 1967 was entitled “Cleveland’s White Problem – A Challenge to the Bar.” He packaged the speech in a 13-page pamphlet. It was given wide distribution.

There was not a word of criticism in the Davis speech about Cleveland corporate or civic leaders No acknowledgement of mistakes. No self examination. Davis instead pitted whites against blacks. There was more than a touch of politics in this. White ethnics were typically Democratic. Davis was Republican.

Davis wrote, “Another frequent comment among white people is, why should the government spend the taxpayers’ money for handouts to Negroes? We – and ‘we’ frequently refers to Americans of Irish, Italian, Polish, Hungarian or others of the heterogeneous ethnic backgrounds which abound in Cleveland – we were poor – we had nothing – we did not need Government handouts to succeed – we educated ourselves – we worked our way out of poverty to find a satisfactory life in America. Why shouldn’t we expect the Negro to do the same?”

Davis wasn’t wrong about the biased feelings of whites toward blacks. However, he made it a fight between Cleveland’s white ethnics and its blacks. No bluebloods to criticize.

He didn’t mention, for example, who controlled the many jobs where discrimination kept blacks unemployed. He didn’t mention how the real estate industry helped to keep Clevelanders segregated. Or the school administration, which business leaders controlled, kept school segregated.

ROLDO: Cleveland's Decline From the 1960s - CoolCleveland

As usual the racist piece of shit ignores what really went on to blame blacks for conditions created by whites. Do us a favor Ray, STFU.

What year did you get those East Cleveland pictures from? Trust me, I've made many deliveries to EC. Here is what 95% looks like today:

View attachment 186041

View attachment 186042

View attachment 186043
View attachment 186044
View attachment 186045

Many years ago EC was one of the elitist places to live. Look at it today. Try walking down one of their streets at night today.

This is part of the Buckeye Shaker community- a black community in Cleveland.

Woodland Hills

Bedford Heights

All these are black communities in Cleveland. Ray you are full of sht. You will be shown this every time. Your racism is going to be consistently dismissed. So like Is aid earlier, if you don't want to be around backs put your racist whites ass in your truck leave Cleveland,, and don't stop driving until you find an all white town in Montana and live there.

i have a better idea: Why don't you jump on a ship and head back to Africa? Think how great this country would be without you. Even a better idea yet: why don't you come here one Friday morning about 2:00 am and walk the Buckeye or Woodland streets for a while? Then I can read about you in the news on Saturday.

 

[IM2]

Like I said, until today. There is no law giving blacks any advantages because of race. Equal opportunity is not racial preferences.

Like you said WRONG. Law or no law, AA gives blacks advantages because of their race. AA is not equal opportunity. It is UN equal opportunity, with racial preferences granted to blacks. Hell of a way to go through life. They (and you) ought to be ashamed of themselves.

Look idiot, you are trying to argue against documented history, supreme court decisions and public policy that shows how for 75 percent if the time this nation has been in existence whites by law were given advantages only because of race.

 

[IM2]

Of you have a problem with blacks move out of Cleveland get into you truck and drive until you find some all white town in Montana.

Well, that's the problem; too many whites ran instead of fighting back. Mostly liberal whites, but whites nonetheless.

I guess that's black America. If you don't appreciate the crime, the filth, the noise, just find someplace else to move. We are here now and we are hell bent on destroying everything whitey created. So just move. But give it time, and after we destroyed where you lived, we will move to where you live now and destroy that as well.

This is part of East Cleveland which is 93 prcent black.

Here is a picture of a home in a white part of Cleveland.

The entire city of Cleveland went down because of a decline in manufacturing j jobs.

But let us read what another Cleveland citizen who is not a racist piece of shit has to say about this.

When I arrived in April of 1968 the city’s population was about 750,000. The 1970 U. S. Census established that figure. It had been 876,000 in 1960.

Our decline, already in progress, since has been precipitous and severe. And damaging. And painful.

I believe the period I observed had a dramatic and lasting impact on what happened to Cleveland in the past 45 years. It has been a period pockmarked with selfish schemes that put profit ahead of community betterment.

What were some of the causes?

There were the causes that most cities encounter of urban sprawl, the construction of highways through city neighborhoods and the desire for newer housing and, of course, better schools. All aided urban flight.

In Cleveland, however, I think other civic decisions had an instrumental effect on the city, its decline and ruinous state.

I can say that in the 45 years I’ve been here it seems that the main thrust of civic life — directed by those with power — has been to revive downtown. Little attention has been paid to the rest of the city. The University Circle also got attention. Downtown to city leaders — most of whom don’t live in the city — IS the city. That, I imagine, is because they look at the city primarily in commercial terms. Downtown has been a place of business and commerce.

I’ve continually observed this attitude of selfishness of the Corporate Elite. It has revealed itself over and over again.

More.

In 1966 the U. S. Civil Right Commission held hearings in Cleveland. Some of what they found even shocked blacks.

For example, between 1960-65 — as I and a CWRU professor wrote in The Nation — “the number of poverty families in every Negro planning area increased, and the median income slumped. In Hough, median income skidded from $4,732 to $3,966, and two other areas with 60,000 Negroes, had median incomes lower than Hough’s.”

Other figures from the Rights Commission study revealed disturbing facts of discrimination. The building trades, for example, had 13 Negroes among 11,500 workers in five major construction trades; only 43 Negroes were among the 1,350 apprentice trainings in federally sponsored programs in 1965; unemployment among young Negro males was at 58 percent. Racism raged as demands for change rose.

Yet the policies pursued by Cleveland leaders simply added to the problems. In particular, the vast urban renewal program pushed by the private sector and spurred by foundation funds made matters worse by causing a forced movement of blacks without adequate replacement housing. The city embarked on six major urban renewal projects, with a major effort downtown called Erieview. Ironically, Erieview still is not completed.

Cleveland leaders didn’t understand or likely care about the plight of blacks. They pursued urban renewal that exacerbated the severity of urban problems. Further, they didn’t care much about the Cleveland school system. Indeed, the segregation of schools intensified just as the civil rights movement here began to move. It made for nasty times here.

Decisions in this period, I believe, created the Cleveland we have today. And its problems.

More.

James C. Davis, managing partner of Cleveland’s second largest law firm – Squire, Sanders & Dempsey – gave a speech to assess Cleveland’s problem. I doubt if it was helpful.

Without a touch of irony, Davis blamed white ethnics for Cleveland’s racial problems. His speech to the Cleveland Bar Association in 1967 was entitled “Cleveland’s White Problem – A Challenge to the Bar.” He packaged the speech in a 13-page pamphlet. It was given wide distribution.

There was not a word of criticism in the Davis speech about Cleveland corporate or civic leaders No acknowledgement of mistakes. No self examination. Davis instead pitted whites against blacks. There was more than a touch of politics in this. White ethnics were typically Democratic. Davis was Republican.

Davis wrote, “Another frequent comment among white people is, why should the government spend the taxpayers’ money for handouts to Negroes? We – and ‘we’ frequently refers to Americans of Irish, Italian, Polish, Hungarian or others of the heterogeneous ethnic backgrounds which abound in Cleveland – we were poor – we had nothing – we did not need Government handouts to succeed – we educated ourselves – we worked our way out of poverty to find a satisfactory life in America. Why shouldn’t we expect the Negro to do the same?”

Davis wasn’t wrong about the biased feelings of whites toward blacks. However, he made it a fight between Cleveland’s white ethnics and its blacks. No bluebloods to criticize.

He didn’t mention, for example, who controlled the many jobs where discrimination kept blacks unemployed. He didn’t mention how the real estate industry helped to keep Clevelanders segregated. Or the school administration, which business leaders controlled, kept school segregated.

ROLDO: Cleveland's Decline From the 1960s - CoolCleveland

As usual the racist piece of shit ignores what really went on to blame blacks for conditions created by whites. Do us a favor Ray, STFU.

What year did you get those East Cleveland pictures from? Trust me, I've made many deliveries to EC. Here is what 95% looks like today:

View attachment 186041

View attachment 186042

View attachment 186043
View attachment 186044
View attachment 186045

Many years ago EC was one of the elitist places to live. Look at it today. Try walking down one of their streets at night today.

This is part of the Buckeye Shaker community- a black community in Cleveland.

Woodland Hills

Bedford Heights

All these are black communities in Cleveland. Ray you are full of sht. You will be shown this every time. Your racism is going to be consistently dismissed. So like Is aid earlier, if you don't want to be around backs put your racist whites ass in your truck leave Cleveland,, and don't stop driving until you find an all white town in Montana and live there.

i have a better idea: Why don't you jump on a ship and head back to Africa? Think how great this country would be without you. Even a better idea yet: why don't you come here one Friday morning about 2:00 am and walk the Buckeye or Woodland streets for a while? Then I can read about you in the news on Saturday.

Since my family has been here longer than yours and I was born here, there will be no buying of tickets to Africa. My family helped build this nation for free, so you can just be quiet, get in your truck, drive your white ass to some all white town and go live. I've walked the streets of New Orleans at 3 am, Baltimore at 3 am, St. Louis at 2 am, KC at 4 am, San Diego at 3 am, Dallas at 3 am, Washington DC at 4 am and have yet to get shot. And I won't in Cleveland.

 

[Toro]

No affirmative action.

On my staff, I have an American-born guy, a Hindu Indian guy born in London, a Muslim Indian guy born in Delhi, a black guy born in Alaska which is almost Russia, an American-born woman whom I'm going to fire, a half-Chinese American-born guy, I'm Canadian-born, and my EA was born in Korea.

Be a meritocracy and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Mac1958]

an American-born woman whom I'm going to fire...

There's a certain peace that comes with knowing you're going to remove a wart...
.

 

[IM2]

No affirmative action.

On my staff, I have an American-born guy, a Hindu Indian guy who born in London, a Muslim Indian guy who was born in Delhi, a black guy who was born in Alaska which is almost Russia, an American-born woman whom I'm going to fire, a half-Chinese American-born guy, I'm Canadian-born, and my EA was born in Korea.

Be a meritocracy and let the chips fall where they may.

Affirmative Action insures a meritocracy. If we would have been one, AA would never have been needed. If the stats showed we are one now, AA would not be needed. But we aren't.

 

[Kondor3]

Affirmative Action was never meant to be a Permanent State of Affairs.

It has now been operative for a half-century.

If people (or Peoples) have not leveraged sufficient utility from it over a half-century, they never will.

Meanwhile, it continues to frustrate and anger those not covered by it; a "those" which constitutes an overwhelming majority of Americans.

Fun Time's over, kiddies.

Enough, already.

Pull the plug.

 

[dblack]

No affirmative action.

On my staff, I have an American-born guy, a Hindu Indian guy who born in London, a Muslim Indian guy who was born in Delhi, a black guy who was born in Alaska which is almost Russia, an American-born woman whom I'm going to fire, a half-Chinese American-born guy, I'm Canadian-born, and my EA was born in Korea.

Be a meritocracy and let the chips fall where they may.

Affirmative Action insures a meritocracy.

No, it just changes who is judging merit - replacing individual judgement with government mandate.

 

[Brian Blackwell]

No, people do not come into the world with equal opportunity, and writing it down on paper in Washington doesn't make it so. Fairness is not a right. Not being discriminated against is not a right, no matter what the "law" says. Law does not grant rights; it's a misuse of the term. Law only creates a false justification for punishment to make immoral people feel better about their immorality. Since when does law dictate what's right and wrong?

Every person has the natural right to associate, or not associate, with whoever they choose, for any reason. If you want to hang a sign on your barber shop that says "No Chinese" then so be it. You are not committing an act of aggression and infringement upon the Chinese. To force that barber to accept Chinese clients, however, DOES aggressively infringe upon the barber. It's a fundamental freedom issue. You don't get to initiate violence over it. Not if you're a reasonable moral human being, that is. Discrimination is stupid and wrong, but it's not a matter of rights, and it's less wrong than violent coercion, which is a matter of rights, and is precisely the nature of civil rights law. THAT is why any AA legislation would be wrong, not simply because it's "not fair".

It looks like I might have to put you on ignore (which I rarely ever do-I've only ignored 3 people in 5 years in this forum) But your posts are just too preposterous to even be dignified with a response. Looks like talking to you would be a waste of time and data.

Um, yeah, that doesn't actually address anything I've said.

 

[WEATHER53]

My wife was denied employment with Park and Planning because she was white. They even bothered to stupidly put in writing "...although Mrs P is the more qualified and experienced candidate, the minority applicant does achieve the minimum established standards ...and the AA goals take precedent in the hiring". It kicked off a firestorm, this was in 1983 by the way.
The lady who was hired quit after two weeks so a hearing was held in Her behalf. My wife had Park employment experience with a 6 Flags
At the hearing the lady was asked if she was harassed. Her response was "Goodness no I was not harassed..I had no idea the building was in the woods...all the spiders and snakes out there scared me"
This trend of set asides absent any sense or purpose is mostly what AA is about

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

"Are you saying that each of us should be free to engage in unconstitutional behavior by which we deprive our fellow citizens of their rights?"

The behavior of citizens can't be "unconstitutional". The Constitution is a set of rules for the government, not individuals.

This is what I had in mind when I posted my comment. You are right, I made a mistake as I was confusing civil rights legislation with the U.S. Constitution therefore I stand corrected:

http://mylegalwriting.com/2014/11/14/how-to-assert-a-section-1983-civil-rights-claim-against-a-private-citizen/​

Now I see where I went wrong, I worded this incorrectly

"Are you saying that each of us should be free to engage in behavior by which we deprive our fellow citizens of their Constitutional rights?"
​

I was thinking the right thing but additionally cited the wrong law (litigation is stressful particularly when you're not an attorney):

If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same; or

If two or more persons go in disguise on the highway, or on the premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege so secured—

They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
18 U.S. Code § 241 - Conspiracy against rights
​

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

My family helped build this nation for free,

You don't know what your family did or how long mine has been here. For all you know your family could have been shoveling cow manure for some farmer.

so you can just be quiet, get in your truck, drive your white ass to some all white town and go live.

I did, but then you moved in next door.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

If blacks were benefitting from AA racial preferences as much as you suggest they do...why is the wealth gap between black and white families widening instead of closing?

Because blacks have such a high out of wedlock brith rate. Poverty is directly related to single-parent households. High school graduation rates by blacks are 69% compared t whites at 86%. That's a huge difference.

Don't get me wrong. There are many successful blacks. However, Affirmative Action has not been that great of a factor in improving the economic status of the black community as a whole.

Great! Then let's get rid of it since it's not doing any good.

2. High achieving Asians are being denied admission to prestigious institutions that offer preference to less qualified Whites. Meritocracy ? What a sham...

A 2009 Princeton study showed that Asians had to score a hundred and forty points higher on the S.A.T. than whites to have the same chance of admission to top universities.

And you will find very few whites agree with that practice and discrimination yet alone demand it. If Asians are scoring higher, then they are doing something better than we are. We don't need any handouts from government or colleges.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Sure you can, you have made it patently clear what you think of black people - failures, criminals, self-sabotaging excuse makers for their failed lives caused by their own destructive behavior, no daddies, etc. etc. etc. I'm black so I am a member of the group of people that you believe to have all of these negative attributes and not one redeeming quality to let you tell it.

I am surprised however to hear that you still live in the same place where you grew up, is that correct? I grew up in Compton and south central Los Angeles and the make up of all of the neighborhoods that we lived in as kids have changed sure, it seems like it's just what happens. So are you sure that the change in your neighborhood might not have as much to do with race as it does with the level of poverty in the area? Why do you stay if it's so bad? Why would you live among people whom you dislike so much?

And you still haven't stated how you measure success.

First of all why should I move? I grew up here, my immediate family is still here, most of my friends that I grew up with are here, and I have a part-time business here. That's besides the fact I would be taking a huge financial loss since the blacks lowered our property value so badly.

We never had poverty until the blacks moved in. This was especially the case during the housing bubble when banks were giving loans to anybody and everybody regardless of income or credit history. It was started during the Clinton administration and Bush did little to stop it. The goal was to get more minorities into their own homes, however most didn't meet the bank standards. It kept growing until it collapsed the economy.

The change in my neighborhood is because of race just like the neighborhood I grew up in, the neighborhood I was born in, and the neighborhood I live in now. How do I know this? Because white areas never changed. They are still great and safe places to live.

Cleveland is basically divided into two sections: the east side and the west side. The east side is where most of the blacks are. The west side was mostly hillbillies and lower income whites. When Puerto Ricans began moving in, the west side became a mixed neighborhood but still very vibrant. There was little trouble until the blacks started to migrate from the east side to the west. Now there are murders and violent attacks just like the east side. So it's not poverty.

You might be a great guy. You sound certainly more intelligent than the blacks I've discussed race issues with in the past. Most are like IM2 where they just deny everything or make excuses. I've known a lot of good black people, so I'm not saying "all" blacks fit the stereotype I have; but many do. Until we can eliminate fair housing laws, it will remain that way because we will always be divided by race instead of by class.

It's very unfortunate that you've experienced some of the things that you have and it's obvious that those experiences have hardened your heart towards a segment of our society. I don't know what else to say except I do genuinely appreciate the time you've taken to discuss this with me (although I still would love to know how to measure success - I want to know how I measure up

In most discussions like this, blacks have a very hard time wearing somebody else's shoes. It's impossible for them to put themselves in my position and see what I see. That's why I explained to you what I did. You said you learn from such discussions, so I gave you something to think about, and many whites feel the same as I do.

I's not skin color that's the problem. It's how many of a skin color conduct themselves in society and I pointed out the vast differences. For the most part, whites have no problem living with Asians. We have no problem living with Hispanics. We have no problem living with the Jewish or Middle-Eastern people. So if the problem is skin color, how can whites have little to no issues with these other groups of people?

In my discussions with black friends and coworkers, the black attitude is they don't change for anybody. If they move into a white neighborhood, they do as they feel and if you don't like it, follow IM2's advice and move. So how could there not be problems with anybody like that?

But it's not just race, it's more class. For instance years ago a friend of mine hit the lottery. When he went to get a house of his own (he was in his 30's and still living with mom and dad) I gave him some advice and he followed it. However the real estate agent because suspicious of a guy with no job wanting to pay cash for an upper-middle-class home, so she showed him homes in a wealthy area.

He came back and told me about this. He loved some of the houses, but he felt very uncomfortable in the neighborhood. He was a long-haired jeans and tee shirt kind of guy. He said when he stepped out of the realtors car, it's like everybody stopped doing what they were doing and stared.

Yes, he could have afforded any of those homes, but what he couldn't do is conform to his neighbors. Mind you these were all people of his same race; probably some from the same ethnic background, but he knew in spite of his money, he just didn't belong there. This is the way most white people think.

 

[IM2]

My family helped build this nation for free,

You don't know what your family did or how long mine has been here. For all you know your family could have been shoveling cow manure for some farmer.

so you can just be quiet, get in your truck, drive your white ass to some all white town and go live.

I did, but then you moved in next door.

I do know what my family did and I know our family has been here longer than yours.

 

[IM2]

If blacks were benefitting from AA racial preferences as much as you suggest they do...why is the wealth gap between black and white families widening instead of closing?

Because blacks have such a high out of wedlock brith rate. Poverty is directly related to single-parent households. High school graduation rates by blacks are 69% compared t whites at 86%. That's a huge difference.

Don't get me wrong. There are many successful blacks. However, Affirmative Action has not been that great of a factor in improving the economic status of the black community as a whole.

Great! Then let's get rid of it since it's not doing any good.

2. High achieving Asians are being denied admission to prestigious institutions that offer preference to less qualified Whites. Meritocracy ? What a sham...

A 2009 Princeton study showed that Asians had to score a hundred and forty points higher on the S.A.T. than whites to have the same chance of admission to top universities.

And you will find very few whites agree with that practice and discrimination yet alone demand it. If Asians are scoring higher, then they are doing something better than we are. We don't need any handouts from government or colleges.

Ray you are wrong on every count. When blacks had a more acceptable out of wedlock birth rates to racists we had a higher rate of poverty. You don't know what AA is. You really need to stop talking about things you don't know. Whites have got government handouts more than every other race combined. You do need them and it's why whites are where they are today.

 

[IM2]

Sure you can, you have made it patently clear what you think of black people - failures, criminals, self-sabotaging excuse makers for their failed lives caused by their own destructive behavior, no daddies, etc. etc. etc. I'm black so I am a member of the group of people that you believe to have all of these negative attributes and not one redeeming quality to let you tell it.

I am surprised however to hear that you still live in the same place where you grew up, is that correct? I grew up in Compton and south central Los Angeles and the make up of all of the neighborhoods that we lived in as kids have changed sure, it seems like it's just what happens. So are you sure that the change in your neighborhood might not have as much to do with race as it does with the level of poverty in the area? Why do you stay if it's so bad? Why would you live among people whom you dislike so much?

And you still haven't stated how you measure success.

First of all why should I move? I grew up here, my immediate family is still here, most of my friends that I grew up with are here, and I have a part-time business here. That's besides the fact I would be taking a huge financial loss since the blacks lowered our property value so badly.

We never had poverty until the blacks moved in. This was especially the case during the housing bubble when banks were giving loans to anybody and everybody regardless of income or credit history. It was started during the Clinton administration and Bush did little to stop it. The goal was to get more minorities into their own homes, however most didn't meet the bank standards. It kept growing until it collapsed the economy.

The change in my neighborhood is because of race just like the neighborhood I grew up in, the neighborhood I was born in, and the neighborhood I live in now. How do I know this? Because white areas never changed. They are still great and safe places to live.

Cleveland is basically divided into two sections: the east side and the west side. The east side is where most of the blacks are. The west side was mostly hillbillies and lower income whites. When Puerto Ricans began moving in, the west side became a mixed neighborhood but still very vibrant. There was little trouble until the blacks started to migrate from the east side to the west. Now there are murders and violent attacks just like the east side. So it's not poverty.

You might be a great guy. You sound certainly more intelligent than the blacks I've discussed race issues with in the past. Most are like IM2 where they just deny everything or make excuses. I've known a lot of good black people, so I'm not saying "all" blacks fit the stereotype I have; but many do. Until we can eliminate fair housing laws, it will remain that way because we will always be divided by race instead of by class.

It's very unfortunate that you've experienced some of the things that you have and it's obvious that those experiences have hardened your heart towards a segment of our society. I don't know what else to say except I do genuinely appreciate the time you've taken to discuss this with me (although I still would love to know how to measure success - I want to know how I measure up

In most discussions like this, blacks have a very hard time wearing somebody else's shoes. It's impossible for them to put themselves in my position and see what I see. That's why I explained to you what I did. You said you learn from such discussions, so I gave you something to think about, and many whites feel the same as I do.

I's not skin color that's the problem. It's how many of a skin color conduct themselves in society and I pointed out the vast differences. For the most part, whites have no problem living with Asians. We have no problem living with Hispanics. We have no problem living with the Jewish or Middle-Eastern people. So if the problem is skin color, how can whites have little to no issues with these other groups of people?

In my discussions with black friends and coworkers, the black attitude is they don't change for anybody. If they move into a white neighborhood, they do as they feel and if you don't like it, follow IM2's advice and move. So how could there not be problems with anybody like that?

But it's not just race, it's more class. For instance years ago a friend of mine hit the lottery. When he went to get a house of his own (he was in his 30's and still living with mom and dad) I gave him some advice and he followed it. However the real estate agent because suspicious of a guy with no job wanting to pay cash for an upper-middle-class home, so she showed him homes in a wealthy area.

He came back and told me about this. He loved some of the houses, but he felt very uncomfortable in the neighborhood. He was a long-haired jeans and tee shirt kind of guy. He said when he stepped out of the realtors car, it's like everybody stopped doing what they were doing and stared.

Yes, he could have afforded any of those homes, but what he couldn't do is conform to his neighbors. Mind you these were all people of his same race; probably some from the same ethnic background, but he knew in spite of his money, he just didn't belong there. This is the way most white people think.

LOL! When you turn black and live come tell us how things are. For you guys are the ones with the inability to see things from the eyes of others. Look at this post, it's a prime example.

 

[IM2]

My wife was denied employment with Park and Planning because she was white. They even bothered to stupidly put in writing "...although Mrs P is the more qualified and experienced candidate, the minority applicant does achieve the minimum established standards ...and the AA goals take precedent in the hiring". It kicked off a firestorm, this was in 1983 by the way.
The lady who was hired quit after two weeks so a hearing was held in Her behalf. My wife had Park employment experience with a 6 Flags
At the hearing the lady was asked if she was harassed. Her response was "Goodness no I was not harassed..I had no idea the building was in the woods...all the spiders and snakes out there scared me"
This trend of set asides absent any sense or purpose is mostly what AA is about

Your wife was not hired because the company as still practicing racial discrimination. It would be nice if whites just stopped talking about this policy until they went back and learned the entirety of their history.