Affirmative action, helpful or harmful?

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Law or no law, AA gives blacks advantages because of their race. AA is not equal opportunity. It is UN equal opportunity, with racial preferences granted to blacks. Hell of a way to go through life. They (and you) ought to be ashamed of themselves

Denialism
In the psychology of human behavior, denialism is a person's choice to deny reality, as a way to avoid a psychologically uncomfortable truth.[1] Denialism is an essentially irrational action that withholds the validation of a historical experience or event, when a person refuses to accept an empirically verifiable reality.[2]

Willful Ignorance
Willful ignorance is the state and practice of ignoring any sensory input that appears to contradict one's inner model of reality. At heart, it is almost certainly driven by confirmation bias.

Willful ignorance differs from ordinary “ignorance“ — when someone is simply unaware of something — in that willfully ignorant people are fully aware of facts, resources and sources, but refuse to acknowledge them. Indeed, calling someone "ignorant" shouldn’t really be a pejorative, but intentional and willful ignorance is an entirely different matter. In practice though, the word "ignorance" has often come to mean "willful ignorance", and indeed, in many non-English languages, the word based on the same stem ("ignore") actually carries that meaning.[citation needed]

Willful ignorance is sometimes referred to as tactical stupidity.

Depending on the nature and strength of an individual's pre-existing beliefs, willful ignorance can manifest itself in different ways. The practice can entail completely disregarding established facts, evidence and/or reasonable opinions if they fail to meet one's expectations. Often the willfully ignorant will make excuses, claiming that a source is unreliable, suggesting that an experiment was flawed or asserting that an opinion is too biased. More often than not this is simple circular reasoning: “I cannot agree with that source because it is untrustworthy because it disagrees with me”.

In other slightly more extreme cases, willful ignorance can involve outright refusal to read, hear or study, in any way, anything that does not conform to the willfully ignorant person's worldview.

With regard to oneself, this can even extend to fake locked-in syndrome with complete unresponsiveness. Or with regard to others, to outright censorship of the material from others.
​

And just for the record "tactical stupidity" was already bolded.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

"tie breaking"factor

Tie breaking factor? I thought you said that she was more qualified than the non-white person who was awarded the job. If it was a tie, then how is that discrimination? They could have flipped a coin.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Try to keep up.

Uh huh

 

[dblack]

.You fail to understand that law and policy dictate individual behavior.

How so? That seems like an obvious statement. Is this another shell game?

 

[JQPublic1]

You're the space cadet not me. If blacks were benefitting from AA racial preferences as much as you suggest they do...why is the wealth gap between black and white families widening instead of closing? Why is black unemployment rates always more than twice that of the white unemployment rate?

Don't get me wrong. There are many successful blacks. However, Affirmative Action has not been that great of a factor in improving the economic status of the black community as a whole. But even there you begrudge any thing you percieve being done to level the playing field for your fellow black Americans.

1. Where is your protests against white women, Asians, and others who have benefitted more from Affirmative Action than blacks could ever dream of?
2. High achieving Asians are being denied admission to prestigious institutions that offer preference to less qualified Whites. Meritocracy ? What a sham...

A 2009 Princeton study showed that Asians had to score a hundred and forty points higher on the S.A.T. than whites to have the same chance of admission to top universities.

Your questions reflect the typical mindset of liberals, greatly information-deprived, as a result of watching liberal OMISSION media.

1. WHO says the he wealth gap between black and white families is widening ? I SEE it as closing sharply. Decades ago, you didn't see blacks en masse, living in nice homes, driving shiny new cars (like I SEE in my apt complex) and in WalMart parking lots. Sometimes the eyes and ears are more reliable than liberal sources (which you didn't even cite)

2. It has been long well-known (at least by conservatives) that despite AA advantage, blacks have had high unemployment due to:
a. Simple lazieness to go out and get a job
b. Unpreparedness in job interviews
c. Inability to perform on the job, and high job loss

3. I wouldn't call racial AA a leveling of a playing field for anyone. I don't totally oppose the idea of AA though >> AA based on financial need could be a leveling of playing field for the poor, as opposed to the black.

4. White women and Asians have NOT benefitted more from Affirmative Action than blacks. By far, the majority of white woman suffer loss from AA due to discrimination against them by race, and being relatives (dependents) of discriminated-against white men (daughters & wives)

5. You contradict yourself. first you say >> "...Asians ... who have benefitted more from Affirmative Action", and then you say >> "High achieving Asians are being denied admission"
You were right the second time. When I was denied an assistantship in graduate school, the only recipients were the only 8 blacks who applied. Among the AA victims ? >> 2 Asians, 3 Hispanics, 5 women.

Your eyes and ears are merely sensory devices that gather information to be processed by a demented bigoted brain. But you are not alone. You've got plenty of RW screwball friends just as psychotic and easily manipulated as you are. Thats how Trump became president. He is just as fucked up as YOU and the rest of the RW turds that fell for the empty promises and clownish BS of the immoral lying creep. Your responses to my questions are typical of low information Trump surrogates.

Nevertheless, for the sake of posterity, I will address the latests manifestation of your foibles so history will be accurately recorded in proper context and truth

1. There are myriad sources publishing this observation but the agents of the Urban Institute, who made this chart, will do for now:

2. Typically,you have contradicted yourself again. If Blacks are too lazy, are unprepared for interviews or inept, why are you so vehemently opposed to AA? AA doesn't require Managers to hire unqualified or unprepared individuals. And those Blacks without competitive SAT or LSAT scores are rejected by prestigious universities right along with most Whites or Asians who don't meet those prerequisites. But you logic doesn't explain why 75% of the Black community lives above the poverty level. It seems the majority of Blacks have overwhelmingly convinced employers that they can make money for the boss.

3. Have you ever wondered why AA was implemented at all? I'm sure you have. But somehow you ignore the pervasive discrimination and prejudices that necessitated legislative action to address a national problem. Dr. Ben Carson and General Colin Powell admit they were products of AA. There are thousands of other Black success stories owing their narratives to AA. Merit alone, though, has never been the only basis for hiring and college admission. AA removed the disqualifying stigma of Blackness and promoted more egalitarian options.

4. Yes, before 1965, White women and Asians were locked out of educational and job opportunities reserved for white males just as Blacks were.

Several studies have documented important gains in racial and gender equality as a direct result of affirmative action (Bowen & Bok, 1998; Murrell & Jones, 1996). For example, according to a report from the U.S. Labor Department, affirmative action has helped 5 million minority members and 6 million White and minority women move up in the workforce ("Reverse Discrimination," 1995).

Note that the term "minority" does include Asians.

Moreover, affirmative action programs benefit Asian American students in specific and concrete ways. Historically, such programs were critical in making public higher education available to Asian Americans in the 1960s and 1970s, before which Asian Americans had suffered exclusion and de jure segregation in public education like other people of color. So Asian Americans are already the beneficiaries of affirmative action in education, both firsthand and as the children of people who benefited firsthand and who consequently had improved professional opportunities and greater economic security.

5. There is no contradiction in recognizing that the doors of educational opportunity, closed to Asians in the 1960s, were opened by Affirmative Action, and that since then Asians are now over represented. Now, so called meritocracy is shelved to give preference to Whites who score less than Asians on admissions tests.

 

[Markle]

Why We Are Not Making Progress Against Racism

From DEMOS.COM

I couldn't make that up!

 

[Markle]

You're the space cadet not me. If blacks were benefitting from AA racial preferences as much as you suggest they do...why is the wealth gap between black and white families widening instead of closing? Why is black unemployment rates always more than twice that of the white unemployment rate?

Don't get me wrong. There are many successful blacks. However, Affirmative Action has not been that great of a factor in improving the economic status of the black community as a whole. But even there you begrudge any thing you percieve being done to level the playing field for your fellow black Americans.

1. Where is your protests against white women, Asians, and others who have benefitted more from Affirmative Action than blacks could ever dream of?
2. High achieving Asians are being denied admission to prestigious institutions that offer preference to less qualified Whites. Meritocracy ? What a sham...

A 2009 Princeton study showed that Asians had to score a hundred and forty points higher on the S.A.T. than whites to have the same chance of admission to top universities.

Your questions reflect the typical mindset of liberals, greatly information-deprived, as a result of watching liberal OMISSION media.

1. WHO says the he wealth gap between black and white families is widening ? I SEE it as closing sharply. Decades ago, you didn't see blacks en masse, living in nice homes, driving shiny new cars (like I SEE in my apt complex) and in WalMart parking lots. Sometimes the eyes and ears are more reliable than liberal sources (which you didn't even cite)

2. It has been long well-known (at least by conservatives) that despite AA advantage, blacks have had high unemployment due to:
a. Simple lazieness to go out and get a job
b. Unpreparedness in job interviews
c. Inability to perform on the job, and high job loss

3. I wouldn't call racial AA a leveling of a playing field for anyone. I don't totally oppose the idea of AA though >> AA based on financial need could be a leveling of playing field for the poor, as opposed to the black.

4. White women and Asians have NOT benefitted more from Affirmative Action than blacks. By far, the majority of white woman suffer loss from AA due to discrimination against them by race, and being relatives (dependents) of discriminated-against white men (daughters & wives)

5. You contradict yourself. first you say >> "...Asians ... who have benefitted more from Affirmative Action", and then you say >> "High achieving Asians are being denied admission"
You were right the second time. When I was denied an assistantship in graduate school, the only recipients were the only 8 blacks who applied. Among the AA victims ? >> 2 Asians, 3 Hispanics, 5 women.

Your eyes and ears are merely sensory devices that gather information to be processed by a demented bigoted brain. But you are not alone. You've got plenty of RW screwball friends just as psychotic and easily manipulated as you are. Thats how Trump became president. He is just as fucked up as YOU and the rest of the RW turds that fell for the empty promises and clownish BS of the immoral lying creep. Your responses to my questions are typical of low information Trump surrogates.

Nevertheless, for the sake of posterity, I will address the latests manifestation of your foibles so history will be accurately recorded in proper context and truth

1. There are myriad sources publishing this observation but the agents of the Urban Institute, who made this chart, will do for now:

View attachment 186226


2. Typically,you have contradicted yourself again. If Blacks are too lazy, are unprepared for interviews or inept, why are you so vehemently opposed to AA? AA doesn't require Managers to hire unqualified or unprepared individuals. And those Blacks without competitive SAT or LSAT scores are rejected by prestigious universities right along with most Whites or Asians who don't meet those prerequisites. But you logic doesn't explain why 75% of the Black community lives above the poverty level. It seems the majority of Blacks have overwhelmingly convinced employers that they can make money for the boss.

3. Have you ever wondered why AA was implemented at all? I'm sure you have. But somehow you ignore the pervasive discrimination and prejudices that necessitated legislative action to address a national problem. Dr. Ben Carson and General Colin Powell admit they were products of AA. There are thousands of other Black success stories owing their narratives to AA. Merit alone, though, has never been the only basis for hiring and college admission. AA removed the disqualifying stigma of Blackness and promoted more egalitarian options.

4. Yes, before 1965, White women and Asians were locked out of educational and job opportunities reserved for white males just as Blacks were.

Several studies have documented important gains in racial and gender equality as a direct result of affirmative action (Bowen & Bok, 1998; Murrell & Jones, 1996). For example, according to a report from the U.S. Labor Department, affirmative action has helped 5 million minority members and 6 million White and minority women move up in the workforce ("Reverse Discrimination," 1995).

Note that the term "minority" does include Asians.

Moreover, affirmative action programs benefit Asian American students in specific and concrete ways. Historically, such programs were critical in making public higher education available to Asian Americans in the 1960s and 1970s, before which Asian Americans had suffered exclusion and de jure segregation in public education like other people of color. So Asian Americans are already the beneficiaries of affirmative action in education, both firsthand and as the children of people who benefited firsthand and who consequently had improved professional opportunities and greater economic security.

5. There is no contradiction in recognizing that the doors of educational opportunity, closed to Asians in the 1960s, were opened by Affirmative Action, and that since then Asians are now over represented. Now, so called meritocracy is shelved to give preference to Whites who score less than Asians on admissions tests.

If your article addresses Asians so much, why are they left out of the chart?

Might this go toward understanding the differences you pose? These are the averages of SAT scores.

What Is the Average SAT Score?

 

[protectionist]

Denialism
In the psychology of human behavior, denialism is a person's choice to deny reality, as a way to avoid a psychologically uncomfortable truth.[1] Denialism is an essentially irrational action that withholds the validation of a historical experience or event, when a person refuses to accept an empirically verifiable reality.[2]

Willful Ignorance
Willful ignorance is the state and practice of ignoring any sensory input that appears to contradict one's inner model of reality. At heart, it is almost certainly driven by confirmation bias.

Willful ignorance differs from ordinary “ignorance“ — when someone is simply unaware of something — in that willfully ignorant people are fully aware of facts, resources and sources, but refuse to acknowledge them. Indeed, calling someone "ignorant" shouldn’t really be a pejorative, but intentional and willful ignorance is an entirely different matter. In practice though, the word "ignorance" has often come to mean "willful ignorance", and indeed, in many non-English languages, the word based on the same stem ("ignore") actually carries that meaning.[citation needed]

Willful ignorance is sometimes referred to as tactical stupidity.

Depending on the nature and strength of an individual's pre-existing beliefs, willful ignorance can manifest itself in different ways. The practice can entail completely disregarding established facts, evidence and/or reasonable opinions if they fail to meet one's expectations. Often the willfully ignorant will make excuses, claiming that a source is unreliable, suggesting that an experiment was flawed or asserting that an opinion is too biased. More often than not this is simple circular reasoning: “I cannot agree with that source because it is untrustworthy because it disagrees with me”.

In other slightly more extreme cases, willful ignorance can involve outright refusal to read, hear or study, in any way, anything that does not conform to the willfully ignorant person's worldview.

With regard to oneself, this can even extend to fake locked-in syndrome with complete unresponsiveness. Or with regard to others, to outright censorship of the material from others.
​

And just for the record "tactical stupidity" was already bolded.

Yes, these are exactly what AA supporters engage in.

 

[protectionist]

Your eyes and ears are merely sensory devices that gather information to be processed by a demented bigoted brain. But you are not alone. You've got plenty of RW screwball friends just as psychotic and easily manipulated as you are. Thats how Trump became president. He is just as fucked up as YOU and the rest of the RW turds that fell for the empty promises and clownish BS of the immoral lying creep. Your responses to my questions are typical of low information Trump surrogates.

Nevertheless, for the sake of posterity, I will address the latests manifestation of your foibles so history will be accurately recorded in proper context and truth

1. There are myriad sources publishing this observation but the agents of the Urban Institute, who made this chart, will do for now:

View attachment 186226


2. Typically,you have contradicted yourself again. If Blacks are too lazy, are unprepared for interviews or inept, why are you so vehemently opposed to AA? AA doesn't require Managers to hire unqualified or unprepared individuals. And those Blacks without competitive SAT or LSAT scores are rejected by prestigious universities right along with most Whites or Asians who don't meet those prerequisites. But you logic doesn't explain why 75% of the Black community lives above the poverty level. It seems the majority of Blacks have overwhelmingly convinced employers that they can make money for the boss.

3. Have you ever wondered why AA was implemented at all? I'm sure you have. But somehow you ignore the pervasive discrimination and prejudices that necessitated legislative action to address a national problem. Dr. Ben Carson and General Colin Powell admit they were products of AA. There are thousands of other Black success stories owing their narratives to AA. Merit alone, though, has never been the only basis for hiring and college admission. AA removed the disqualifying stigma of Blackness and promoted more egalitarian options.

4. Yes, before 1965, White women and Asians were locked out of educational and job opportunities reserved for white males just as Blacks were.

Several studies have documented important gains in racial and gender equality as a direct result of affirmative action (Bowen & Bok, 1998; Murrell & Jones, 1996). For example, according to a report from the U.S. Labor Department, affirmative action has helped 5 million minority members and 6 million White and minority women move up in the workforce ("Reverse Discrimination," 1995).

Note that the term "minority" does include Asians.

Moreover, affirmative action programs benefit Asian American students in specific and concrete ways. Historically, such programs were critical in making public higher education available to Asian Americans in the 1960s and 1970s, before which Asian Americans had suffered exclusion and de jure segregation in public education like other people of color. So Asian Americans are already the beneficiaries of affirmative action in education, both firsthand and as the children of people who benefited firsthand and who consequently had improved professional opportunities and greater economic security.

5. There is no contradiction in recognizing that the doors of educational opportunity, closed to Asians in the 1960s, were opened by Affirmative Action, and that since then Asians are now over represented. Now, so called meritocracy is shelved to give preference to Whites who score less than Asians on admissions tests.

A lot of what you posted is simply FALSE and ridiculous. I'm not going to bother a lot of typing for such drivel.

The simple answer is to either >>

1. Have AA be applied on the basis of economic class (financial need), regardless of race

OR >>

2, Do way with AA entirely, and just disperse college admission, college financial aid, jobs, job promotions, business loans, etc, on the basis of qualification.

PS - forget your "studies". No conservative gives a rats ass about what your liberal think thanks, universities, media, etc, conjure up.

And I'm quite sure you don't want to allow eyes & ears to make conclusions. They produce truth, as opposed to purposeful studies.

 

[JQPublic1]

Your eyes and ears are merely sensory devices that gather information to be processed by a demented bigoted brain. But you are not alone. You've got plenty of RW screwball friends just as psychotic and easily manipulated as you are. Thats how Trump became president. He is just as fucked up as YOU and the rest of the RW turds that fell for the empty promises and clownish BS of the immoral lying creep. Your responses to my questions are typical of low information Trump surrogates.

Nevertheless, for the sake of posterity, I will address the latests manifestation of your foibles so history will be accurately recorded in proper context and truth

1. There are myriad sources publishing this observation but the agents of the Urban Institute, who made this chart, will do for now:

View attachment 186226


2. Typically,you have contradicted yourself again. If Blacks are too lazy, are unprepared for interviews or inept, why are you so vehemently opposed to AA? AA doesn't require Managers to hire unqualified or unprepared individuals. And those Blacks without competitive SAT or LSAT scores are rejected by prestigious universities right along with most Whites or Asians who don't meet those prerequisites. But you logic doesn't explain why 75% of the Black community lives above the poverty level. It seems the majority of Blacks have overwhelmingly convinced employers that they can make money for the boss.

3. Have you ever wondered why AA was implemented at all? I'm sure you have. But somehow you ignore the pervasive discrimination and prejudices that necessitated legislative action to address a national problem. Dr. Ben Carson and General Colin Powell admit they were products of AA. There are thousands of other Black success stories owing their narratives to AA. Merit alone, though, has never been the only basis for hiring and college admission. AA removed the disqualifying stigma of Blackness and promoted more egalitarian options.

4. Yes, before 1965, White women and Asians were locked out of educational and job opportunities reserved for white males just as Blacks were.

Several studies have documented important gains in racial and gender equality as a direct result of affirmative action (Bowen & Bok, 1998; Murrell & Jones, 1996). For example, according to a report from the U.S. Labor Department, affirmative action has helped 5 million minority members and 6 million White and minority women move up in the workforce ("Reverse Discrimination," 1995).

Note that the term "minority" does include Asians.

Moreover, affirmative action programs benefit Asian American students in specific and concrete ways. Historically, such programs were critical in making public higher education available to Asian Americans in the 1960s and 1970s, before which Asian Americans had suffered exclusion and de jure segregation in public education like other people of color. So Asian Americans are already the beneficiaries of affirmative action in education, both firsthand and as the children of people who benefited firsthand and who consequently had improved professional opportunities and greater economic security.

5. There is no contradiction in recognizing that the doors of educational opportunity, closed to Asians in the 1960s, were opened by Affirmative Action, and that since then Asians are now over represented. Now, so called meritocracy is shelved to give preference to Whites who score less than Asians on admissions tests.

A lot of what you posted is simply FALSE and ridiculous. I'm not going to bother a lot of typing for such drivel.

The simple answer is to either >>

1. Have AA be applied on the basis of economic class (financial need), regardless of race

OR >>

2, Do way with AA entirely, and just disperse college admission, college financial aid, jobs, job promotions, business loans, etc, on the basis of qualification.

PS - forget your "studies". No conservative gives a rats ass about what your liberal think thanks, universities, media, etc, conjure up.

And I'm quite sure you don't want to allow eyes & ears to make conclusions. They produce truth, as opposed to purposeful studies.

Everything I posted was enough to leave you babbling and hurling unsubstantiated accusations. Just saying something is false and ridiculous doesn't cut it, Bub! All that kind of response shows is laziness and/or cluelessness. I will accept your capitulation. BTW how does the bitter dregs of defeat taste?

Perhaps, though there is some modicum of hope for you, Recently, you have softened your position in regards to AA. I applaud your decision to do so; and, your recommendation for modifying it is noteworthy. Still. if merit is to be held as the deciding factor for who is or is not admitted to Universities, economic status would never be preferred over test scores. And who would pay for the poor applicant's tuition? Surely you don't think Blacks are getting a free ride do you?
Many Blacks get to college via athletic scholarships and others simply have working parents who sacrifice to get them there. Others work their way through college and get bogged down by student loans they will have to pay back for years. Affirmative Action doesn't help at all financially.

Studies are based on the collection and analytical review of data to determine cause and effect. Even conservatives realize that. At least the bright ones do. But if the majority of conservatives hold a disregard for studies as you posit, there may be some truth to Trump's claim to love the poorly educated. The interpretation of a truth often based on past experience or lack thereof. Conservatives dismiss studies that produce results that they don''t like and embrace those that they do. The danger there is that in some cases, such as dismantling the EPA, we are less safe due to conservative's obstinate ignorance.

 

[JQPublic1]

You're the space cadet not me. If blacks were benefitting from AA racial preferences as much as you suggest they do...why is the wealth gap between black and white families widening instead of closing? Why is black unemployment rates always more than twice that of the white unemployment rate?

Don't get me wrong. There are many successful blacks. However, Affirmative Action has not been that great of a factor in improving the economic status of the black community as a whole. But even there you begrudge any thing you percieve being done to level the playing field for your fellow black Americans.

1. Where is your protests against white women, Asians, and others who have benefitted more from Affirmative Action than blacks could ever dream of?
2. High achieving Asians are being denied admission to prestigious institutions that offer preference to less qualified Whites. Meritocracy ? What a sham...

A 2009 Princeton study showed that Asians had to score a hundred and forty points higher on the S.A.T. than whites to have the same chance of admission to top universities.

Your questions reflect the typical mindset of liberals, greatly information-deprived, as a result of watching liberal OMISSION media.

1. WHO says the he wealth gap between black and white families is widening ? I SEE it as closing sharply. Decades ago, you didn't see blacks en masse, living in nice homes, driving shiny new cars (like I SEE in my apt complex) and in WalMart parking lots. Sometimes the eyes and ears are more reliable than liberal sources (which you didn't even cite)

2. It has been long well-known (at least by conservatives) that despite AA advantage, blacks have had high unemployment due to:
a. Simple lazieness to go out and get a job
b. Unpreparedness in job interviews
c. Inability to perform on the job, and high job loss

3. I wouldn't call racial AA a leveling of a playing field for anyone. I don't totally oppose the idea of AA though >> AA based on financial need could be a leveling of playing field for the poor, as opposed to the black.

4. White women and Asians have NOT benefitted more from Affirmative Action than blacks. By far, the majority of white woman suffer loss from AA due to discrimination against them by race, and being relatives (dependents) of discriminated-against white men (daughters & wives)

5. You contradict yourself. first you say >> "...Asians ... who have benefitted more from Affirmative Action", and then you say >> "High achieving Asians are being denied admission"
You were right the second time. When I was denied an assistantship in graduate school, the only recipients were the only 8 blacks who applied. Among the AA victims ? >> 2 Asians, 3 Hispanics, 5 women.

Your eyes and ears are merely sensory devices that gather information to be processed by a demented bigoted brain. But you are not alone. You've got plenty of RW screwball friends just as psychotic and easily manipulated as you are. Thats how Trump became president. He is just as fucked up as YOU and the rest of the RW turds that fell for the empty promises and clownish BS of the immoral lying creep. Your responses to my questions are typical of low information Trump surrogates.

Nevertheless, for the sake of posterity, I will address the latests manifestation of your foibles so history will be accurately recorded in proper context and truth

1. There are myriad sources publishing this observation but the agents of the Urban Institute, who made this chart, will do for now:

View attachment 186226


2. Typically,you have contradicted yourself again. If Blacks are too lazy, are unprepared for interviews or inept, why are you so vehemently opposed to AA? AA doesn't require Managers to hire unqualified or unprepared individuals. And those Blacks without competitive SAT or LSAT scores are rejected by prestigious universities right along with most Whites or Asians who don't meet those prerequisites. But you logic doesn't explain why 75% of the Black community lives above the poverty level. It seems the majority of Blacks have overwhelmingly convinced employers that they can make money for the boss.

3. Have you ever wondered why AA was implemented at all? I'm sure you have. But somehow you ignore the pervasive discrimination and prejudices that necessitated legislative action to address a national problem. Dr. Ben Carson and General Colin Powell admit they were products of AA. There are thousands of other Black success stories owing their narratives to AA. Merit alone, though, has never been the only basis for hiring and college admission. AA removed the disqualifying stigma of Blackness and promoted more egalitarian options.

4. Yes, before 1965, White women and Asians were locked out of educational and job opportunities reserved for white males just as Blacks were.

Several studies have documented important gains in racial and gender equality as a direct result of affirmative action (Bowen & Bok, 1998; Murrell & Jones, 1996). For example, according to a report from the U.S. Labor Department, affirmative action has helped 5 million minority members and 6 million White and minority women move up in the workforce ("Reverse Discrimination," 1995).

Note that the term "minority" does include Asians.

Moreover, affirmative action programs benefit Asian American students in specific and concrete ways. Historically, such programs were critical in making public higher education available to Asian Americans in the 1960s and 1970s, before which Asian Americans had suffered exclusion and de jure segregation in public education like other people of color. So Asian Americans are already the beneficiaries of affirmative action in education, both firsthand and as the children of people who benefited firsthand and who consequently had improved professional opportunities and greater economic security.

5. There is no contradiction in recognizing that the doors of educational opportunity, closed to Asians in the 1960s, were opened by Affirmative Action, and that since then Asians are now over represented. Now, so called meritocracy is shelved to give preference to Whites who score less than Asians on admissions tests.

If your article addresses Asians so much, why are they left out of the chart?

Might this go toward understanding the differences you pose? These are the averages of SAT scores.

What Is the Average SAT Score?

I don't know where you got that chart but it isn't one from the link you provided. From your link:

Why not use the chart for average SAT in your link rather than one seemingly homemade that puts White test scores on par with Asian.But does either of your charts address the premise that Asians need to score 140 points higher than Whites to gain admission to certain universities? At first glance a casual observer might think so. But what the chart do not show is the individual scores running above the average. Obviously there are more Asians scoring higher than their average score and some of those applicants are not admitted over of lower scoring whites.

 

[dblack]

The problem with AA, and so many other statist programs, is that it embraces the notion that government is an appropriate tool to (as rightwinger put it) "implement" society - that it's a useful tool to force societal changes on the unwilling. And it's just not.

Government operates by passing laws and enforcing them. It doesn't change the hearts and minds of its citizens. To do that requites actual persuasion, and can only happen through voluntary interactions.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Yes, these are exactly what AA supporters engage in.

Projection
Psychological projection is a defense mechanism people subconsciously employ in order to cope with difficult feelings or emotions. Psychological projection involves projecting undesirable feelings or emotions onto someone else, rather than admitting to or dealing with the unwanted feelings​

Do you understand the meaning of "empirically verifiable"? At the most basic level it refers to things that you (or others) can verify through the senses such as sight, sound, taste, touch, etc. The evidence that disproves your statement exists, you can see it in photos, read it court documents, in legal text, in statistical reports, in U.S. Department of Labor audit results, etc. Refusing to exam the evidence does nothing to diminish the evidence nor change the facts. Continuing to perpetuate the lie however, that "affirmative action legally authorized the hiring of unqualified black people thereby depriving qualified white people of those jobs", in the face of the amount of "empirically verifiable evidence" with which you've been presented however speaks volumes about you as a person and your character.

So how can anyone who consistently demonstrates at least three identifiable psychological conditions as can be observed (empirically verifiable) from just the last few weeks of comments on this message board alone, then claim God given superiority over another whole race of people?

Delusions

A delusion is a belief that is clearly false and that indicates an abnormality in the affected person’s content of thought. The false belief is not accounted for by the person’s cultural or religious background or his or her level of intelligence. The key feature of a delusion is the degree to which the person is convinced that the belief is true. A person with a delusion will hold firmly to the belief regardless of evidence to the contrary. Delusions can be difficult to distinguish from overvalued ideas, which are unreasonable ideas that a person holds, but the affected person has at least some level of doubt as to its truthfulness. A person with a delusion is absolutely convinced that the delusion is real. Delusions are a symptom of either a medical, neurological, or mental disorder.
Understanding delusions
​

​

 

[protectionist]

Everything I posted was enough to leave you babbling and hurling unsubstantiated accusations. Just saying something is false and ridiculous doesn't cut it, Bub! All that kind of response shows is laziness and/or cluelessness. I will accept your capitulation. BTW how does the bitter dregs of defeat taste?

Perhaps, though there is some modicum of hope for you, Recently, you have softened your position in regards to AA. I applaud your decision to do so; and, your recommendation for modifying it is noteworthy. Still. if merit is to be held as the deciding factor for who is or is not admitted to Universities, economic status would never be preferred over test scores. And who would pay for the poor applicant's tuition? Surely you don't think Blacks are getting a free ride do you?
Many Blacks get to college via athletic scholarships and others simply have working parents who sacrifice to get them there. Others work their way through college and get bogged down by student loans they will have to pay back for years. Affirmative Action doesn't help at all financially.

Studies are based on the collection and analytical review of data to determine cause and effect. Even conservatives realize that. At least the bright ones do. But if the majority of conservatives hold a disregard for studies as you posit, there may be some truth to Trump's claim to love the poorly educated. The interpretation of a truth often based on past experience or lack thereof. Conservatives dismiss studies that produce results that they don''t like and embrace those that they do. The danger there is that in some cases, such as dismantling the EPA, we are less safe due to conservative's obstinate ignorance.

What you call "educated", I, et al, call MISeducated (which is probably the source of how miserably mixed up you are).

As long as you want to discuss what "doesn't cut it", I will reiterate that your liberal bastions don't cut it, as well as their propaganda so-called "studies", which you put faith in.

As for laziness, how much work does it take to find a "study" and toss it into USMB, without the specifics ? That's a rhetorical question. I'll answer it. >> None.

Regarding ability to pay for college, that is something that is always a hurdle for anyone black, white, or whatever. It's a separate subject that isn't actually part of the AA debate, unless the AA is for college financial aid (like the grad school assistantship I, et al, was deprived of, just because of not being black).

Note, also I went through 4 years of undergraduate college, and never paid one dime in tuition. Education was free in CUNY, when I went there. Probably still is. And we're not just talking about AA related to education, either. It is a big factor in employment, and job promotions. Business loans too.

Liberals dismiss studies that produce results that they don''t like, and embrace those that they do. Show me a liberal embracing a conservative study, and I'll show you a cow jumping over the moon. The danger there is we are less safe due to liberals' obstinate ignorance (from watching liberal OMISSION media), and their resulting acceptance of dangerous things like illegal immigration, Islam, gun-free zones, and abortion.

No charge for the tutoring. I realize that liberals are the most information-deprived people in America, due to their (your) attachment to your OMISSION networks (I've proved this repeatedly with my Islamization Quiz), so I'm always here willing to help.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Government operates by passing laws and enforcing them. It doesn't change the hearts and minds of its citizens. To do that requites actual persuasion, and can only happen through voluntary interactions.

You make a good point about these programs not being able to change hearts and minds but on the other hand, not everyone agrees with discriminatory practices. Sometimes companies will willing comply once there is something in place that they can point to and say "sorry, this is something we're required to do by law" if someone like one of there customers complains (going back to the concerns of the airline which was sued for not hiring Captain Marlon Green that their customers might choose to instead fly with one of their competitors)

 

[dblack]

Government operates by passing laws and enforcing them. It doesn't change the hearts and minds of its citizens. To do that requites actual persuasion, and can only happen through voluntary interactions.

You make a good point about these programs not being able to change hearts and minds but on the other hand, not everyone agrees with discriminatory practices. Sometimes companies will willing comply once there is something in place that they can point to and say "sorry, this is something we're required to do by law" if someone like one of there customers complains (going back to the concerns of the airline which was sued for not hiring Captain Marlon Green that their customers might choose to instead fly with one of their competitors)

So?

You seem to be missing my point. It's stronger than simply saying government can't change hearts and minds. I'm saying that it shouldn't try, that it's an abuse of the power granted to them to even attempt such an intrusive goal.

 

[protectionist]

Projection
Psychological projection is a defense mechanism people subconsciously employ in order to cope with difficult feelings or emotions. Psychological projection involves projecting undesirable feelings or emotions onto someone else, rather than admitting to or dealing with the unwanted feelings​

Do you understand the meaning of "empirically verifiable"? At the most basic level it refers to things that you (or others) can verify through the senses such as sight, sound, taste, touch, etc. The evidence that disproves your statement exists, you can see it in photos, read it court documents, in legal text, in statistical reports, in U.S. Department of Labor audit results, etc. Refusing to exam the evidence does nothing to diminish the evidence nor change the facts. Continuing to perpetuate the lie however, that "affirmative action legally authorized the hiring of unqualified black people thereby depriving qualified white people of those jobs", in the face of the amount of "empirically verifiable evidence" with which you've been presented however speaks volumes about you as a person and your character.

So how can anyone who consistently demonstrates at least three identifiable psychological conditions as can be observed (empirically verifiable) from just the last few weeks of comments on this message board alone, then claim God given superiority over another whole race of people?

Delusions

A delusion is a belief that is clearly false and that indicates an abnormality in the affected person’s content of thought. The false belief is not accounted for by the person’s cultural or religious background or his or her level of intelligence. The key feature of a delusion is the degree to which the person is convinced that the belief is true. A person with a delusion will hold firmly to the belief regardless of evidence to the contrary. Delusions can be difficult to distinguish from overvalued ideas, which are unreasonable ideas that a person holds, but the affected person has at least some level of doubt as to its truthfulness. A person with a delusion is absolutely convinced that the delusion is real. Delusions are a symptom of either a medical, neurological, or mental disorder.
Understanding delusions​

Continuing to perpetuate the lie that affirmative action DID NOT legally authorize the hiring of unqualified black people thereby depriving qualified white people of those jobs, in the face of the amount of "empirically verifiable evidence" with which you've been presented, (such as seeing the dum dums screw up their jobs) speaks volumes about you as a person and your character. In short, you're a LIAR.

And your posts don't gain credibility, in the face of obvious sillieness, just because they're long, and have an erudite style about them. Content trumps form.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

The problem with AA, and so many other statist programs, is that it embraces the notion that government is an appropriate tool to (as rightwinger put it) "implement" society - that it's a useful tool to force societal changes on the unwilling. And it's just not.

So you don't think it should have been used to desegregate our country? How about to end slavery? That was a government decision certainly not one made by the slave owners.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

It's stronger than simply saying government can't change hearts and minds. I'm saying that it shouldn't try, that it's an abuse of the power granted to them to even attempt such an intrusive goal.

You would prefer private citizens do it? Because let's face it, there are things that people do that they shouldn't be allowed to do, not even because of the morality of their actions but solely because they infringe upon the rights of others. Why do you think the production and possession of child pornography is unlawful?

 

[dblack]

It's stronger than simply saying government can't change hearts and minds. I'm saying that it shouldn't try, that it's an abuse of the power granted to them to even attempt such an intrusive goal.

You would prefer private citizens do it? Because let's face it, there are things that people do that they shouldn't be allowed to do, not even because of the morality of their actions but solely because they infringe upon the rights of others.

There's no such thing as a 'right' to not be discriminated against. The concept is nonsensical.