Zone1 After having learned new information, I am not sure where the real Catholic Church is..

[notmyfault2020]

Post number 7.

I do completely understand your frustration at the moment....the current news about "false popes" vs papal infallibility is extremely disconcerting to a Catholic....I've heard of "bad popes" but never "false pope".

This is the first time I have ever heard that.

The Church always taught that a heretic CANNOT be pope. So it looks to me like "pope" F is NOT the pope.. something ... again.. i knew as soon as he opened his mouth after getting elected.

If it doesn't quack like a duck or walk like a duck.. maybe it's not a duck

But appearances are everything, aren't they? All the antiCatholics had to do was change the APPEARANCE of the Church and voila'... Satanic stuff ensues.. Marxis bs.. same thing. Satan and Marx are the same thing bc neither believe in doing things God's way

 

[notmyfault2020]

There must be salvation apart from the Catholic Church. God chooses upon who He has mercy and who He doesn't...not the Pope or Cardinals and certainly not man.

No, all salvation comes through Christ's Church

That truth cannot change and never will. If someone finds Jesus, it is through the Catholic Church he finds it.. whether he gives credit or not

Protestants would not have Christ if not for the Original Church founded by Him.

Jesus wants everyone saved, therefore He wants everyone in His TRUE Church.. not the "churches" that claim to have Him but do not, or do not have ALL of what He wants for us

 

[JohnDB]

The Church always taught that a heretic CANNOT be pope. So it looks to me like "pope" F is NOT the pope.. something ... again.. i knew as soon as he opened his mouth after getting elected.

If it doesn't quack like a duck or walk like a duck.. maybe it's not a duck

But appearances are everything, aren't they? All the antiCatholics had to do was change the APPEARANCE of the Church and voila'... Satanic stuff ensues.. Marxis bs.. same thing. Satan and Marx are the same thing bc neither believe in doing things God's way

It's not just appearances though is it?

If "F" is not Pope...then Apostolic Succession has been broken. You can't have Apostolic Succession and a false Pope at the same time...this isn't a paradox...it's an outright conflict of Theologies.

 

[there4eyeM]

The entire Roman Church is without any other foundation than its own say-so.

 

[notmyfault2020]

It's not just appearances though is it?

If "F" is not Pope...then Apostolic Succession has been broken. You can't have Apostolic Succession and a false Pope at the same time...this isn't a paradox...it's an outright conflict of Theologies.

Like I said, I do not u/stand .. it is a new thing in the Church. With luther, it was just one man. This is a Takeover

One thing I know is that Jesus has not abandoned His Church. He doesn't appreciate what is being done in said Church but He has not abandoned us. Maybe all Catholics, just like Protestants are now "the pope".. ?



until someone else comes along and things in the Church are fixed.. in other words, when they return to NORMAL

 

[JohnDB]

Like I said, I do not u/stand .. it is a new thing in the Church. With luther, it was just one man. This is a Takeover

One thing I know is that Jesus has not abandoned His Church. He doesn't appreciate what is being done in said Church but He has not abandoned us. Maybe all Catholics, just like Protestants are now "the pope".. ?



until someone else comes along and things in the Church are fixed.. in other words, when they return to NORMAL

Like I said....I'm going by THEIR own words.
This is the only logical conclusion that I can think of...the same as you.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Like I said....I'm going by THEIR own words.
This is the only logical conclusion that I can think of...the same as you.

for the 20th time (it seems like 20)

we have to say WHICH Catholic or allegedly Catholic Church we are referring to..

the one that APPEARS to be Catholic or the one that really is..

I can't answer any questions not knowing which one we are talking about, obvoiusly

 

[Clyde 154]

I will never change in my knowledge of Church history along with my experiences in the CC (Catholic Church) which inform me that the Catholic Church is THE Church Christ founded. That has never and will never be in question.

However, I had thought that SSPX was the true Catholic Church. Then I read some info from Novus Ordo Watch that again makes me question things.

I read many things on this topic last night; the thing that sticks most in my mind is this:

NO Watch says (my words) that the Church cannot err when declaring someone a saint; therefore the apparently fake popes who "canonized" modern popes who have died (and I heard there were no miracles attached to those popes), well.. #1, it is wrong to say that the canonizations were not infallible, as the SSPX camp supposedly does. SSPX rightly says that Vatican II (my words again) should not be adhered to because it taught heresy. But they are not seda vacantists in that they do not say tht the Chair of Peter is empty, just that the pope we have now, along with others before him recently, are not real popes (or something to that effect).

OK, so people like me, Cahtolics like me, do not know what to believe. I know I speak for probably millions of other Catholics here.. all of us confused, sometimes not even having a clue just how confused we are.. trying to make sense of all this insanity since Vat II

Even my hero Archbishop Lefebvre exhibited some confusion on what to make of the false popes. No one can blame him (us). We have never seen anything like this massive Takeover (Vatican II, a NON-dogmatic Council). It is a new thing in the Church's history.

So anyway, where was I? I don't know.. that's the problem.. Who knows what to think?

But I will keep studying this issue. All I "know" with certainty is that the last valid, truly Catholic pope was Pius XII and that Vatican II was a fake Council, as it were.. something all Catholics, confused or not, need to totally IGNORE (after studying up on it, of course, as I have).

The "REAL" church...i.e., kingdom is located only in one place. No one can find something that does not exist.....such as a physcial kingdom made like a brick and mortar building, the "Real" church is a Spiritual Israel (Israel was a physical nation once husbanded by God governed by God's Law until the nation became so lawless in living up to this personal covenant of writings recorded on stone -- Jer. 31:31-34), this New Israel now known as Christianity exists as a Spritual Kingdom and it cannot exist or be found if it is not allowed to GESTATE in YOUR HEART.

Jesus told everyone "Himself" that His Kingdom was not here (Earth), not of this world (John 18:36, John 15:19, John 17:14)......He also inspired the Apostles to record this nature of the kingdom as not being of THIS WORLD (Romans 12:2, 1 John 2:15)

Again the Kingdom/church is spiritual and must be comprehended as such in order to find it, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." -- Eph. 6:12

If you do not want to live your life in misery, searching, groping for something you cannot find, set your affections on things above (heaven, the abode of God who is a Spirit), not on things of this earth. -- Col. 3:2

Again the primary reason you can't find THE REAL CHURCH/KINGDOM? The kingdom of God cometh not with observation, neither shall they say, Look Here!, Look There!, FOR BEHOLD THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU, ITS WRITTEN ON THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO BELIEVE (Jer. 31:31-34, Luke 1721) We are HIS PEOPLE and HE IS OUR GOD.

The true church has never been about your physcial bodies (as man has been cursed with death since man first sinned in the garden, the one thing we all have in common is the fact that our physical bodies are decaying)...........the Mission of Christ was to save the eternal spirit of man via becoming SIN HIMSELF and taking our place after having lived His entire human (Son of Man) life without SIN, becoming the perfect BLOOD ATONEMENT that flows both forward and backwards (having the power to save the righteous awaiting in the realm of the dead HADES that lived under the Old Law -- 1 Peter 3:19) As well as each generation that followed.

We can do nothing physical to atone for our consistent sinning......thus He is faithful to forgive our sins when we confess our faults that allows Him to take upon Himself the burden of Sin (1 John 1:19) For God so loved the word that He gave His only Begotten Son........." -- John 3:16

 

[notmyfault2020]

Playing it Safe? Kennedy Hall and the Sedevacantist Wager

novusordowatch.org

St Augustine said that he who will not have the Church for his mother cannot have God for his Father.

Don't get mad at me, get mad at him (and other saints who have said the same)

 

[Clyde 154]

Playing it Safe? Kennedy Hall and the Sedevacantist Wager

novusordowatch.org

St Augustine said that he who will not have the Church for his mother cannot have God for his Father.

Don't get mad at me, get mad at him (and other saints who have said the same)

The one true spiritual church........has Christ, the authority to worship under the N.T. doctrine of righteousness, not as a mother figure, but a Husband with the church being His bride. No one can come to the Father expect through His Son, Christ Jesus (John 14:6), God the Father gave unto Jesus, ALL AUTHORITY in heaven and in earth (Matthew 28:18)

Being the Bride of Christ.......we are all members of a Royal Priesthood that requires no middle man, Saint, Priest, Pope, Bishop or Mother of God.......to approach the throne of the Kingdom of God. (1 Peter 2:5-9) Christ is the High Priest of our faith....not the POPE (Hebrews 9:11)

The Bride of Christ is the kingdom/church that Christ constructed, being the Rock.....the chief cornerstone/foundation stone (1 Cor. 10:4). Just as Peter was not the first Pope.....nor was He the Rock mentioned by the Christ in Matthew 16. When read in context the "upon this Rock......" is making reference to the question asked by Jesus to His disciples.....with Peter answering the question "Whom do you say I am?" Peter reponded and declared you are the Christ, the Son of the living God. It was upon this truth spoken by Peter that was the foundation of the kingdom.....THE ROCK, the foundation stone was Christ Jesus. Jesus stated that it was God that revealed this Truth to Peter.

Peter was then given the Keys to that Kingdom.......which he used on the day of Pentecost around A.D 33 when asked how to gain entrance into this kingdom, he replied, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ........FOR THE REMISSION OF SIN....." -- Acts 2:38

The keys given to Peter allowed him to bind on earth what was to be bound in heaven via the teachings of his words in helping define doctrine for the infant church (Matthew 16:18-19) but still, Christ is the head of the church being its High Priest with all members being of a royal priesthood defined as The Bride of Christ (Eph. 5:25-27, Rev. 19:7-9, 2 Cor. 11:2, Matthew 25:1-46). There is no separation between the laity and the clergy.....especially divided by Speical Clothing and Special Sabbaths....etc., Each congregation is autonomous with its own hierarchy/leadership. The Christ recorded His opinion of men practicing tradition as compared to practicing righteous doctrine as written (Matthew 23).........those who practice such are called vipers, serpents...........hypocrites........

Once you have allowed yourself to become the victim of a reprobate mind......there is no return from the instanity when you reject God and His teachings as revealed.....God simply rejects you and gives you over to your reprobate mentality. You can't give sight to those who refuse to see.

 

[Meriweather]

OK, so people like me, Cahtolics like me, do not know what to believe. I know I speak for probably millions of other Catholics here.. all of us confused, sometimes not even having a clue just how confused we are.. trying to make sense of all this insanity since Vat II

It is not that confusing when one studies the reasoning behind the changes. Much of it was to tweak the Church back into Apostolic times before Latin became predominant. It is vital to understand the "Why" when it comes to the changes in the liturgy.

The Church has not changed any of what Christ said or any of his instructions. The Church continues to celebrate the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. The Church continues to follow the traditions of the Apostles.

The Church points to Christ and his Way of entering the Kingdom of God in this life, right here, right now. This is the life we live, the faith we embrace. Personally, I have no time for the Vatican. My parish priests have all done well in guiding us in Christ's footsteps on the Way of the Kingdom of God.

 

[Road Runner]

Here's a helpful hint, if people are singing everything and spraying incense everywhere, you're at a Catholic church. I'm not even Catholic and I know that.

 

[AMart]

I will never change in my knowledge of Church history along with my experiences in the CC (Catholic Church) which inform me that the Catholic Church is THE Church Christ founded. That has never and will never be in question.

However, I had thought that SSPX was the true Catholic Church. Then I read some info from Novus Ordo Watch that again makes me question things.

I read many things on this topic last night; the thing that sticks most in my mind is this:

NO Watch says (my words) that the Church cannot err when declaring someone a saint; therefore the apparently fake popes who "canonized" modern popes who have died (and I heard there were no miracles attached to those popes), well.. #1, it is wrong to say that the canonizations were not infallible, as the SSPX camp supposedly does. SSPX rightly says that Vatican II (my words again) should not be adhered to because it taught heresy. But they are not seda vacantists in that they do not say tht the Chair of Peter is empty, just that the pope we have now, along with others before him recently, are not real popes (or something to that effect).

OK, so people like me, Cahtolics like me, do not know what to believe. I know I speak for probably millions of other Catholics here.. all of us confused, sometimes not even having a clue just how confused we are.. trying to make sense of all this insanity since Vat II

Even my hero Archbishop Lefebvre exhibited some confusion on what to make of the false popes. No one can blame him (us). We have never seen anything like this massive Takeover (Vatican II, a NON-dogmatic Council). It is a new thing in the Church's history.

So anyway, where was I? I don't know.. that's the problem.. Who knows what to think?

But I will keep studying this issue. All I "know" with certainty is that the last valid, truly Catholic pope was Pius XII and that Vatican II was a fake Council, as it were.. something all Catholics, confused or not, need to totally IGNORE (after studying up on it, of course, as I have).

Go back as far as you can to the original founding. Scripture is solid.

 

[Meriweather]

Here's a helpful hint, if people are singing everything and spraying incense everywhere, you're at a Catholic church. I'm not even Catholic and I know that.

Oh? And how often is incense "sprayed everywhere" in a Catholic church?

 

[The Irish Ram]

no, it is NOT thatsimple. When Christ's Church is a mess, peole leaving right and left.. being taught heresy..

it matters a great deal. We are called not to save only ourselves but others.. and the Church .. the TRUE Catholic Church knows how to do that better than anyone. So anyone who does not look for this True Church is on a false path. Jesus did not establish a Church for NO reason.. Mt 16:18

The Church is important because Christ who founded it is all-important.

Except He didn't. He remains, as always, Jewish. We are not told to save ourselves. If that were possible, Christ's work on the cross would not have been necessary. We are not told to save a church. We are the bride of Christ. Not a church. We come from all different denominations.
We are called Saints. Not by some Pope, not for some miracle we performed. Because we are believers. it is used about 70 times in the NT, and always refers to believers, and not as one special group.

Here is one of God's reason for sharing the Holy Spirit with us:
Ephesians 4:12, : For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.

The body of Christ, not the church. You. You are a saint. God said so, not a Pope. Believe God.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Right. Protestants are always implying or outright saying that Catholics aren't Christians and other totally stupid remarks.

Except that isn't true....

 

[The Irish Ram]

No, all salvation comes through Christ's Church

That truth cannot change and never will. If someone finds Jesus, it is through the Catholic Church he finds it.. whether he gives credit or not

Protestants would not have Christ if not for the Original Church founded by Him.

Jesus wants everyone saved, therefore He wants everyone in His TRUE Church.. not the "churches" that claim to have Him but do not, or do not have ALL of what He wants for us

Nope. Salvation comes from Christ. You added the word church. God says not to add to or take away from... You added to and took all the glory away from Christ and gave it to the Catholic Church.

 

[notmyfault2020]

The "REAL" church...i.e., kingdom is located only in one place. No one can find something that does not exist.....such as a physcial kingdom made like a brick and mortar building, the "Real" church is a Spiritual Israel (Israel was a physical nation once husbanded by God governed by God's Law until the nation became

That's true but only as far as it goes.

The True Church existed up until Pius XII (and sometimes I wonder if he wasn't murdered.. by the Takeover criminals, but that's just me.. haven't researched it)

In any case, the popes we've had since are not popes, according to the sedavacantists and I am going back to that group because theirs is the only position that makes sense. Jesus promised His Church would not fail even if the gates of Hell came against it (Mt 16:1), which is what is happening today.

Even so, the Real Presence is still in NO Churches.. although I have to say, it does not seem to be in SOME I have visited..

Jesus promised not to leave or forsake us. In thse confusing times, we Catholics do have to carry on the Faith largely by ourselves.. but carry on we do.. and/or we find a good priest/Church where things aren't too insane..

Novus Ordo Watch, a very informative site on the i-net goes into the details about.. such things as how a pope cannot teach egregious error (my term 4 it), so therefore the Chair of Peter is empty, not "defective" or however you say it.. God is big enough to handle this problem. In the meantime, I am going to work on figuring things out so as to share information/insight w/ my fellow Catholics, most of whom are very confused and unhappy. The other ones are clueless.

 

[notmyfault2020]

So the latest on what I have learned in the last few days:

According to Novus Ordo Watch, which appears to be the most reliable source I have found so far, a pope cannot teach error in his official capacity as (human) head of the Church/Successor of St Peter. But Francis does. Therefore he is not pope.

Problem solved (although getting to Solved was a very interesting journey, most interesting I have taken in decades, or ever)

So

We have had NO pope since 1958

no other view makes sense

 

[HaShev]

This thread reminds me of some comicbook store argument fictional characters Howard, Raj, Sheldon and Leonard would have about fictional characters.
A fictional authority arguing over the fictional mask of that self appointed authority.