America Founded as a Christian Nation

[Porter Rockwell]

post: 23926068,

According to Frank Lambert, Professor of History at Purdue University, the assurances in Article 11 {this disputed sentence where the Treaty said we were not a Christian nation} were "intended to allay the fears of the Muslim state by insisting that religion would not govern how the treaty was interpreted and enforced."

That does not durable anything I wrote. If you think it does you will have to explain it in better than your usual general unspecific way.

Well, your response is not in English. It is a deflection. AND, you are trying to lie once again about what this thread is about.

I have stipulated as has every person that has posted favorable posts on this that AMERICA WAS NOT FOUNDED AS A THEOCRACY.

Since I began this thread, I am the one who is defining what is meant by a Christian nation when we are not a theocracy. That you cannot disprove the proposition put forth AND that nobody except you is arguing on behalf of a theocracy, makes you look stupid.

Now, I've been so courteous as to answer your questions and tell you that this is not an argument about a theocracy. If you fail to comprehend that by now, you are an idiot. Your debunked theories have been laid to rest; my many links have met your objections and thrown many a curve ball that you did not expect - and did not bother to respond to. The reason? You realize you got spanked. I'd like to quote something out of my last link and leave you with that:

"Those who cite the Treaty of Tripoli as evidence that this nation was not founded on the Christian religion, usually ignore the Treaty of Paris of 1783. This Treaty, negotiated by Ben Franklin and John Adams among others, is truly a foundational document for the United States, because by this Treaty Britian recognized the independence of the United States. The Treaty begins with the words, "In the Name of the most holy and undivided Trinity... ," and there is no dispute about its validity or its wording."

You cited the Treaty of Tripoli and it got debunked. Now not only did I debunk your Treaty and what really happened, you were given something equally valid. You cannot address it. From here on out, you can expect a beat down.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

23926415

The earliest state constitutions before, during and after the framers worked out the Constitution required political office holders to take an oath (but no test) that they believed in a Christian God.

Is the title of this thread about the founding of and Establishment of individual state constitutions or about the founding of the United States o America and it’s Constitution?

 

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23926135

America is considered to be a Christian nation and founded on Christian principles and values for the reasons you just agreed with.

That history and all your other history and all the indisputable history that many versions of Judeo/Christian religion was the Dominant religion in all thirteen colonies at the time that the United States was founded does not in any way establish that the United States of America was founded as a Christian nation.

You have not responded to one single one of my arguments take explains why, You keep repeating the same hymn as if you are reciting religious dogma with a heavy dose of because quote I say so unquote..

i agreed as I explained that I took your with that you do not exclude all the other non-Christian values and principles that were involved in the founding of America.

Is your word no good?

I have defeated all of your arguments.

America is considered to be a Christian nation and founded on Christian principles and values because...

1. America was settled by Christians in the 1600’s.

2. Her people were overwhelmingly Christians from its first settlers and through and beyond her founding.

3. Christian values and principles were imbedded in every aspect of American life from the textbooks used to educate her children through her universities which they graduated from.

4. We even have eyewitness testimony of how Christianity was interwoven into the governorship of its people with the conclusion that that is what made America great.

 

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23926415

The earliest state constitutions before, during and after the framers worked out the Constitution required political office holders to take an oath (but no test) that they believed in a Christian God.

Is the title of this thread about the founding of and Establishment of individual state constitutions or about the founding of the United States o America and it’s Constitution?

You lose.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

I'd like to quote something out of my last link and leave you with that:

"Those who cite the Treaty of Tripoli as evidence that this nation was not founded on the Christian religion, usually ignore the Treaty of Paris of 1783. This Treaty, negotiated by Ben Franklin and John Adams among others, is truly a foundational document for the United States, because by this Treaty Britian recognized the independence of the United States. The Treaty begins with the words, "In the Name of the most holy and undivided Trinity... ," and there is no dispute about its validity or its wording."

I read that. I wanted to wait to see if you would be foolish enough to bring that up.

You did. Here is why it is foolish.

John Adams was a strong Unitarian.

Be that as it may, a reference to the most holy and undivided Trinity... is in no way an elemental defining argument that the United States was founded as a Christian nation.

However the language in The Treaty of Tripoli is direct and clear in substance and intent that the original founders understood that they were not establishing a Christian nation.

And that language matched exactly the sentiment that President Jefferson championed his entire adult life that The United States was not In any sense founded as a Christian nation.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

23926415

The earliest state constitutions before, during and after the framers worked out the Constitution required political office holders to take an oath (but no test) that they believed in a Christian God.

Is the title of this thread about the founding of and Establishment of individual state constitutions or about the founding of the United States o America and it’s Constitution?

This thread is about the principles that this country was founded on. That doesn't seem to be that hard a concept to grasp.

Our principles, how we arrive at a fair outcome for aggrieved parties. We are not measured by any law devised by atheists, Muslims, or Hindus. Our system of jurisprudence is based off the common law which has its roots in Christianity.

So, that has zilch, zero, nada in establishing a state religion. You don't have to believe in religion in order for to use that measuring rod. To give you an analogy:

Soldiers live by the standards of warfare as put forth by Sun Tzu. As of this date I don't know anyone who has become a Chinese OR even converted because they learn warfare principles from a Chinese military leader.

Christianity is a part of our heritage. Some people like to argue that Jefferson's changing attitudes and political jockeying are what made America, but Jefferson only wrote a document that had to reflect the way 55 other signers felt. You put forth the proposition that America was founded by atheists and deists. Yet the reality is, only 4 percent of this country's inhabitants supported separating from King George and the reasoning had to be consistent with Christian principles in order to garner the support of the people. They did not want to change their Christian culture and heritage in exchange for escaping religious tyranny.

In the very first post on this thread, it gave you a look at what the founders believed and what was motivating them. You chose to ignore that and then cry and complain about my long posts. You would have spent less time figuring out what the colonists thought and believed relative to this as opposed to wanting a pissing match because you think you're going to prove we're discussing a theocracy and you're going to win some pretend debate based upon a straw man argument.

You've been proven wrong by 2 people and most others got the memo. I did not let them keep rehashing the first few posts that explained in great detail what the meaning of a Christian nation is. The truth seems to offend you, even when people are respectful for whatever religion - or non-religion you subscribe to. Rest assured, until Jesus Christ returns, there will not be a theocracy in America or any other country. No rational Christian is advocating it and to try and hijack a thread to prove something NOBODY is arguing is desperate and dishonest on your part.

So, you want people to believe that our forefathers took an oath saying that they believed in the principles of Christianity; the overwhelming majority of the people (98 percent) that were in the U.S. during the framing of the Constitution, and that we adopted the English common law - which has its roots in Christianity and it means nothing???

No, you've dodged, deflected, and even lied AND now you're down to refusing to return the courtesy and answer questions AFTER being too scared to deal with the OP. You cannot turn it around to fit your agenda. ding and I will not allow that to happen. So, you are left with having to deal with the facts.

 

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Atheists founded the USSR and the People’s Republic of China as atheist nations.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I'd like to quote something out of my last link and leave you with that:

"Those who cite the Treaty of Tripoli as evidence that this nation was not founded on the Christian religion, usually ignore the Treaty of Paris of 1783. This Treaty, negotiated by Ben Franklin and John Adams among others, is truly a foundational document for the United States, because by this Treaty Britian recognized the independence of the United States. The Treaty begins with the words, "In the Name of the most holy and undivided Trinity... ," and there is no dispute about its validity or its wording."

I read that. I wanted to wait to see if you would be foolish enough to bring that up.

You did. Here is why it is foolish.

John Adams was a strong Unitarian.

Be that as it may, a reference to the most holy and undivided Trinity... is in no way an elemental defining argument that the United States was founded as a Christian nation.

However the language in The Treaty of Tripoli is direct and clear in substance and intent that the original founders understood that they were not establishing a Christian nation.

And that language matched exactly the sentiment that President Jefferson championed his entire adult life that The United States was not In any sense founded as a Christian nation.

YOU are the one who is foolish. The Trinity refers to only one thing. And it don't mean squat that Jefferson is this or that and John Adams another. They had to come up with documents that reflected the constituency they represented. Donald Trump is fighting to get prayer back in public school and that man has never bowed his head in prayer to thank God for a freaking thing, nor has he ever prayed for guidance. But, he's fighting to allow prayer back in public schools.

You can't even acknowledge that your little treaty had the offending wording removed and another treaty to take its place after the offending passage was challenged. You are beyond dishonest and you like to argue. You're still wrong, but you are a legend in your own mind, falsely thinking you have a couple of answers to a few questions that you believe proves your point (and they don't) while you're too cowardly to answer my questions.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Atheists founded the USSR and the People’s Republic of China as atheist nations.

And yet our resident troll wants to be here: commie suit and all.

 

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Atheists founded the USSR and the People’s Republic of China as atheist nations.

And yet our resident troll wants to be here: commie suit and all.

Socialists have always sought to subordinate religion, family and love of country.

 

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Locke’s ideas were based on Christianity and the Founders ideas were based on Locke’s ideas. Ergo the founders ideas were based on Christianity.

 

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The beauty of anythingbutW’s link is that it proves how interconnected churches were with politics. Proving that AMERICA was founded as a Christian nation and corroborates de Tocquerville’s observations.

https://etd.library.vanderbilt.edu//available/etd-11222005-122027/unrestricted/THESIS2.pdf

 

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"The court of common pleas of Chester county (New York), a few days since rejected a witness who declared his disbelief in the existence of God. The presiding judge remarked, that he had not before been aware that there was a man living who did not believe in the existence of God; that this belief constituted the sanction of all testimony in a court of justice: and that he knew of no case in a Christian country, where a witness had been permitted to testify without such belief."

 

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There’s your proof.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

"Christianity was and is a part of the common law and is interwoven into the texture of the society. Similarly, common law is based on Christian principles."

*Christianity – Common Law


*"If we examine the constitutions of the various states, we find in them a constant recognition of religious obligations. Every constitution of every one of the 44 states contains language which, either directly or by clear implication, recognizes a profound reverence for religion, and an assumption that its influence in all human affairs is essential to the well-being of the community. This recognition may be in the preamble, such as is found in the constitution of Illinois, 1870: "We, the people of the state of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political, and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing upon our endeavors to secure and transmit the same unimpaired to succeeding generations," etc..."

Holy Trinity Church v U.S. 143 U.S. 457, 12 S.Ct. 511, 36 L.Ed. 226 (1892)

Holy Trinity Church v. U.S. (1892)

More proof:

* Parallel Concepts between the U.S. Constitution & the Bible

* The earliest state constitutions made it clear as well that America was founded as a Christian nation. For example, the Constitution of Connecticut of 1776:

Art. 22. Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust, before taking his seat, or entering upon the execution of his office, shall take the following oath, or affirmation, if conscientiously scrupulous of taking an oath, to wit:

” I, A B. will bear true allegiance to the Delaware State, submit to its constitution and laws, and do no act wittingly whereby the freedom thereof may be prejudiced.”

And also make and subscribe the following declaration, to wit:

” I, A B. do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration.”

Similar language will be found in the state constitutions of Delaware (1776), Georgia (1777), Maryland (1776), Constitution or Form of Government for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts (1780), New Hampshire (1784), New Jersey (1776) New York (1777), North Carolina (1776) Pennsylvania (1776), South Carolina (1778) Vermont (1777), and Virginia (1777.) If you want the exact language of any of those state constitutions, let me know which one and I will post the applicable section(s.)

By the time we get to the United States Constitution, the atheists and unbelievers cannot find any Christian influence therein. I mentioned all the aforementioned state constitutions for a reason. ALL of them have sections requiring a person to take an oath in order to hold elective office. Now, let me quote from the Constitution of the United States:

“The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.” Article VI Paragraph III of the U.S. Constitution

There is a difference between an oath and a test. A religious test is prohibited. An oath is NOT prohibited and most state constitutions required one to be a Christian in order to hold public office. Feel free to Google any of the above earliest state constitutions to verify that. I will do more posts a little later showing you Christian principles in the Constitution and debunking the critics most oft used ruses.

* When you have a lawsuit in court, the common law will come into play. The common law is a derivative of Anglo Saxon Law which is rooted in the Bible.

https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4290&context=penn_law_review

* I conceive we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world . . . that the confusions that are and have been among the nations may be overruled by the promoting and speedily bringing in the holy and happy period when the kingdoms of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and the people willingly bow to the scepter of Him who is the Prince of Peace." From a Fast Day Proclamation issued by Governor Samuel Adams, Massachusetts, March 20, 1797, in our possession; see also Samuel Adams, The Writings of Samuel Adams, Harry Alonzo Cushing, editor (New York: G. P. Putnam’s Sons, 1908), Vol. IV, p. 407, from his proclamation of March 20, 1797

* "[P]ublic utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. Without the Bible, in vain do we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions." James Mc Henry,
REVOLUTIONARY OFFICER; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION;
SECRETARY OF WAR UNDER PRESIDENTS GEORGE WASHINGTON AND JOHN ADAMS Bernard C. Steiner, One Hundred and Ten Years of Bible Society Work in Maryland, 1810-1920 (Maryland Bible Society, 1921), p. 14.

* "I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ." Thomas Jefferson

* The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Ellery Bergh, editor (Washington, D.C.: The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. XIV, p. 385, to Charles Thomson on January 9, 1816.


* “Is it not that in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? – that it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? – that it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?” –John Quincy Adams


* "Let us enter on this important business under the idea that we are Christians on whom the eyes of the world are now turned… [L]et us earnestly call and beseech Him, for Christ’s sake, to preside in our councils. . . . We can only depend on the all powerful influence of the Spirit of God, Whose Divine aid and assistance it becomes us as a Christian people most devoutly to implore. Therefore I move that some minister of the Gospel be requested to attend this Congress every morning . . . in order to open the meeting with prayer." Elias Boudinot, President of Congress; signed the peace treaty to end the Revolution, first attorney to be admitted to the U.S. Supreme Court bar; helped frame the Bill of Rights; Director of the U.S. Mint

*Several unanimous Supreme Court decisions, and virtually every jurist and scholar in the world agrees that the Common Law is based on Christian principles and has a long Christian history. Jefferson, in an anti-Christian fit of irrationalism, claimed otherwise. He was wrong."

The Common Law and Christianity -- KEVIN CRAIG - "Liberty Under God" Beginning in Missouri's 7th Congressional District
Kevin Craig is a Christian Anarchist campaigning for *Liberty Under God* in the race for U.S. Congress in Missouri's 7th District.
kevincraig.us

* "In many of the cases that have occupied the courts, involving religious questions, the proposition has been advanced and reasoned from, that Christianity is a part of the common law..." The American Law Register

https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4290&context=penn_law_review

"The English legal system and common law have long been widely admired worldwide. They are associated with justice, efficiency, fairness, and indeed with a common-sense outlook produced by a focus on real-life problems. Less well-known and appreciated is the cardinal role played by Christian beliefs and believers in their development."

Christian influence over the common law, remembered at last
Christianity planted the seed that germinated into Western thought for two millennia. Yet the contributions of the faith, and its practitioners, remain unsung, underappreciated, and unheralded in a…
blog.acton.org

Jefferson said he was a Christian; then some here say he denied it. Jefferson wrote of unalienable Rights yet he owned some 600 slaves over the course of his life. What my critics lose is the time in which Jefferson made a statement and the context.


* In 1776, every European American, with the exception of about 2,500 Jews, identified himself or herself as a Christian. Moreover, approximately 98 percent of the colonists were Protestants, with the remaining 1.9 percent being Roman Catholics

Barry A. Kosmin and Seymour P. Lachman, One Nation Under God: Religion in Contemporary American Society (New York: Harmony Books, 1993), pp. 28–29.

Is there any point wherein the history of America testifying against the trolls will be accepted as having erased the few quotes they come up with to supposedly prove we are anything less than what this thread has proven? Since they cannot find something nobody is arguing for in the Constitution, when do they accept the facts of history?

 

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From anyonebutW's link...

"...The phenomenon of political preaching in the United States is certainly not new, nor is the controversy over its moral veracity and constitutionality. The practice traces its roots back to the very beginning of the Massachusetts Bay Colony in the early seventeenth century..."

Proof that America was founded as a Christian Nation

 

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From anyonebutW's link...

"...Ministerial influence thus rhetorically tied republican and religious idioms together in such a way that libertarian language functioned to order and bind spiritual and political discourse. The significance of this politicized sermonic language among the people is difficult to discount considering that “more sermons were preached in 1776 than in any previous year in New England’s history...”

Proof that America was founded as a Christian Nation

 

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From a reference from anyonebutW's link...

Bonomi writes:

Religious doctrine and rhetoric, then, contributed in a fundamental way to the coming of the American Revolution and to its final success. In an age of political moderation, when many colonials hesitated at the brink of civil war, patriotic clergymen told their congregations that failure to oppose British tyranny would be an offense in the sight of Heaven. Where political theory urged caution, religious doctrine demanded action. By turning colonial resistance into a righteous cause, and by crying the message to all ranks in all parts of the colonies, ministers did the work of secular radicalism and did it better: they resolved doubts, overcame inertia, fired the heart, and exalted the soul.

Religion & the Founding: Bonomi's "Under the Cope of Heaven"

 

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The role of religion in spreading the emerging political gospel of dissent was recognized by the Continental Congress which, Bonomi notes, “subsidized a four-month tour by two Presbyterian ministers to the North Carolina backcountry in an effort to woo settlers.” The Congress urged other ministers of congregations spreading in the western regions to “use their pastoral Influence to work a change in the disposition of the people…[who were] not accustomed to speculate politically.” Ministers in Pennsylvania and South Carolina answered the call to bring the gospel of political liberty to the western parts of those states. Soon enough, regiments of soldiers were marching to battle under flags adorned with the motto “An Appeal To Heaven.”

Religion & the Founding: Bonomi's "Under the Cope of Heaven"

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Post 23926882

So, you want people to believe that our forefathers took an oath saying that they believed in the principles of Christianity; the overwhelming majority of the people (98 percent) that were in the U.S. during the framing of the Constitution, and that we adopted the English common law - which has its roots in Christianity and it means nothing???

I have never ventured near an argument that the overwhelming majority of colonists and early state residents being of some Christian brand or the other, means nothing.

I have posted a credit to Christians role in the Revolution and in the founding in my very first post.

Try to represent my actual arguments in the future.

Basically the above except from your post 23926882 is false because my point has been clear. I consider the 98% Christian contribution to founding of America as important.

If you can’t tell the truth about what I have put in writing here. Why must I believe anything you have to say including the title of this thread.

With all your words you have not honestly made a valid argument for why I or anyone must agree with your edict or whatever it is, that America was founded as a Christian nation.