America's coming civil war -- makers vs. takers Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/op

[Rambunctious]

As a kid I had a job replacing carpet in government run housing. This is where my best education came from. I saw people collecting welfare, food stamps, and housing that drove nicer cars than my parents. I saw big screen TVs before any of my friends had one and on social worker day all of the husbands and boy friends that didn't exist on paper disappeared until the government worker left the premises. Oh yeah, if the American people only knew of the out and out theft of tax revenue that goes on every day in this country under the guise of compassion the Democrats would never win another election.

 

[Steelplate]

As a kid I had a job replacing carpet in government run housing. This is where my best education came from. I saw people collecting welfare, food stamps, and housing that drove nicer cars than my parents. I saw big screen TVs before any of my friends had one and on social worker day all of the husbands and boy friends that didn't exist on paper disappeared until the government worker left the premises. Oh yeah, if the American people only knew of the out and out theft of tax revenue that goes on every day in this country under the guise of compassion the Democrats would never win another election.

I think your fibbing.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Your Mosiah 4 answers your question, Listening. The prophet-king Benjaminn, the Priest and King over the people, theocratic and political leader, told his people that could not judge the righteousness of those asking for help, but that they had to give it.

Your own religious leaders today counsel you to take care of the needy.

You simply ignore the counsel.

You are wrong, completely, on this, morally and politically.

Actually, no I think it's because that's what God says, that it's what He wants.

We do have an obligation to help one another. we as individuals, not a collective. We also have an obligation to take care of oneself and become self reliant. You have this mindset, that these are mutually exclusive concepts, but God teaches us both.

The truth is we should not and can not expect others to take care of our needs. We are better off when we realize that if we need or want something, that we need to talk with the Lord and take care of things the best we can ourselves. If we exhaust our resources and people who have more share with us their goods, that's great! But we can't expect that and would be foolish to wait around for others to give us what we want.

where in the Bible does it say we shouldn't help others as a collective? I'll wait.

Where in the Bible does it say we should force others to help others ? I'll wait.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Some Americans have always scammed, including the welfare scammers and now these right scammers. The scammers of both sides have tried to leave the American social compact.

Won't happen.

The welfare scammers need to be held to the law, and that law needs to be greatly reformed to protect the taxpayers.

The taxpayers who try to scam their way out of their duties under the social compact need to be punished as well.

As a kid I had a job replacing carpet in government run housing. This is where my best education came from. I saw people collecting welfare, food stamps, and housing that drove nicer cars than my parents. I saw big screen TVs before any of my friends had one and on social worker day all of the husbands and boy friends that didn't exist on paper disappeared until the government worker left the premises. Oh yeah, if the American people only knew of the out and out theft of tax revenue that goes on every day in this country under the guise of compassion the Democrats would never win another election.

I think your fibbing.

 

[Steelplate]

Some Americans have always scammed, including the welfare scammers and now these right scammers. The scammers of both sides have tried to leave the American social compact.

Won't happen.

The welfare scammers need to be held to the law, and that law needs to be greatly reformed to protect the taxpayers.

The taxpayers who try to scam their way out of their duties under the social compact need to be punished as well.

As a kid I had a job replacing carpet in government run housing. This is where my best education came from. I saw people collecting welfare, food stamps, and housing that drove nicer cars than my parents. I saw big screen TVs before any of my friends had one and on social worker day all of the husbands and boy friends that didn't exist on paper disappeared until the government worker left the premises. Oh yeah, if the American people only knew of the out and out theft of tax revenue that goes on every day in this country under the guise of compassion the Democrats would never win another election.

I think your fibbing.

oh hell I absolutely agree. please don't misunderstand. I just think he's exaggerating the scale of what he saw....hence the use of the wire "fibbing". yes, I know that fibbing is lying...but it's more of a white lie, or an exaggeration.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The exaggerations of the far left and the far right amaze me of how "evil" whomever or whatever with which they disagree.

Hating and meanness ain't going to make it. Neither Romney nor Obama are extremists or haters.

They will take their votes but never carry out their crazy dreams and desires.

 

[Steelplate]

The exaggerations of the far left and the far right amaze me of how "evil" whomever or whatever with which they disagree.

Hating and meanness ain't going to make it. Neither Romney nor Obama are extremists or haters.

They will take their votes but never carry out their crazy dreams and desires.

yeah....I know. I commented on that this morning in a Romney thread about his tax returns. I absolutely hate the idea of those tax returns becoming the Dems version of the Birther movement. all allegation, no substance and rational people questioning their sanity.

 

[WillowTree]

tax payers should pay their taxes and stfu, even after witnessing what goes on? The scams, the waste, the fraud? I don't fucking think so.

 

[Steelplate]

tax payers should pay their taxes and stfu, even after witnessing what goes on? The scams, the waste, the fraud? I don't fucking think so.

no...just you. turn in your Medicare card while you're at it.

 

[WillowTree]

tax payers should pay their taxes and stfu, even after witnessing what goes on? The scams, the waste, the fraud? I don't fucking think so.

no...just you. turn in your Medicare card while you're at it.

after you've sent me my money leech.

 

[Listening]

Your Mosiah 4 answers your question, Listening. The prophet-king Benjaminn, the Priest and King over the people, theocratic and political leader, told his people that could not judge the righteousness of those asking for help, but that they had to give it.

Your own religious leaders today counsel you to take care of the needy.

You simply ignore the counsel.

You are wrong, completely, on this, morally and politically.

How do you know who I take care of and don't.

There is nothing in there about using political means to enforce "good works".

I'd say you are about as offbase as you can get.

 

[Bfgrn]

There have been other studies besides the Harvard study that put the numbers in the 20,000 per year range. But when you start calling the demise of fellow Americans 'statistical noise', it reveals that you and I are not operating under the same set of morals and values. Conservatives never have a penny of human capital in their thinking. It is why I call them the modern day Pharisee. If 20,000 Americans dying prematurely is 'statistical noise', then what is a mere 3,000 Americans dying on 9/11?

You didn't dispute my claims.

And you don't understand statistics (that or your purposefully misinterpreting them).

Noise is noise. I can't help that and neither can you. And The Havard study does not have the kind of precision to pick out 1 in 100. I am sorry...but those are the facts. What you are calling a demise....I am calling exptrapolation based on the most specious of assumptions.

And cut the crap about what conservatives have and don't have. I am not going to rehearse to you how I think the system should work because to this point you are not worth it.

So far, we have established that health care is not explicitly called out in the U.S. Constitution.

Whether you believe, as some of us do, that the Federal Government then has no constitutional authority to pass health care administration, has not been established.

You've seen my arguments.

Let's try using some common sense here. Uninsured people are more likely to skip screenings and other preventive care, so their medical problems are often diagnosed later, when they are more advanced and tougher to treat. The uninsured are also more likely to skimp on necessary medical care, whether it’s prescription drugs to keep their blood pressure in check or surgery to clear up clogged arteries.

You can make that assertion and I would not dispute it....as a qualitative statement.

This does nothing for your Harvard argument, which also contains quantitative claims that are meaningless. And you never addressed the fact that 99 out of 100 seem to be doing fine.



If this an argument for people having health care, there is no dispute.

It is somehow supposed to implicitly project a conclusion, I don't see it.

There is a group of Americans who DO have health insurance and access to health care. They are seniors. American life expectancy at birth ranks 30th in the world. We remain 30th for the rest of our lives -- until we reach 65. Then, our rank rises until we reach 14th at 80.

America Before Medicare

47 MILLION…the number of Americans for whom Medicare provides comprehensive health care

51 PERCENT…the number of Americans 65 or older who did not have health care before Medicare was passed, while today virtually all elderly Americans have health care thanks to Medicare

30 PERCENT…the number of elderly Americans who lived in poverty before Medicare, a number now reduced to 7.5 PERCENT

72 PERCENT…the number of Americans in a recent poll who said that Medicare is “extremely” or “very” important to their retirement security

Medicare assures health care for seniors who might otherwise find health care inaccessible. It saves our government money. It makes the lives of our seniors better.

Two concepts inspired Medicare. First, seniors require more care than younger Americans. Second, seniors usually live on less income; many survive only on Social Security. This combination renders seniors extremely vulnerable to losing their savings, homes or lives from easily treatable diseases.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is your point ?

The most telling stories occur at free health care expos around the country. People line up the day before to get free health care. These are not 'welfare queens', over 80% are employed Americans.


Health reform's human stories

New Orleans, La. — — It happened as I watched a 50-something woman walk out, after spending several hours being attended to by volunteer doctors. "She's decided against treatment. A reasonable decision under the circumstances," the doctor tells us as she heads for the next patient. The president of the board of the National Association of Free Health Clinics tells me why: "It's stage four breast cancer, her body is filled with tumors." I don't know when that woman last saw a doctor. But I do know that if she had health insurance, the odds she would have seen a doctor long ago are much higher, and her chances for an earlier diagnosis and treatment would have been far greater.

After watching for hours as the patients moved through the clinic, it was hard to believe that I was in America.

Eighty-three percent of the patients they see are employed, they are not accepting other government help on a large scale, not "welfare queens" as some would like to have us believe. They are tax-paying, good, upstanding citizens who are trying to make it and give their kids a better life just like you and me.

Ninety percent of the patients who came through Saturday's clinic had two or more diagnoses.

Eighty-two percent had a life-threatening condition such as cardiovascular disease, diabetes, or hypertension. They are victims of a system built with corporate profits at its center, which long ago forgot the moral imperative that should drive us to show compassion to our fellow men and women.

Have you ever heard of a bleeding heart Republican?
Paul Craig Roberts - the father of Reaganomics

And my mother smoked for 50 years and died of lung cancer. Something naturally follow. What is your point in all this ?

That people need health care ?

Or that we should be the ones providing it to them ?

All I need to do is look at people who are taking vacations on their Social Security all the while getting their health care paid for by the guy down the street who can't take vacations because of the money he is paying out of check for his neighbors care....to know that I don't think medicare is the greatest thing in the world...in fact....I think it sucks in many ways.

However, that does not mean I don't believe in people having health care.

They are two different issues and you somehow seem to think that we can read between the lines and figure out how you are connecting them.

In fact, there are even more issues without relevence to the conversation that you keep bringing up. As I pointed out earlier, people who lose their houses because they went bankrupt got the care they needed (and they didn't pay for it). That they lost their houses is a different issue. They got the care. If we are talking medical care, that is one thing. If we are talking safety nets, that is something else.

If these are your facts and figures you plan to bury me with, you'd better get a better shovel. Right now, all you are doing is blathering.

What we have established is:

1) Health care is not explicitly called out in the U.S. Constitution.

a) And neither are any other specifics because the Constitution is a guideline.

b) There was no such thing as health care per se in 1776. The father of our country died from 'doctors' extracting of more than half of his blood volume within a short period of time, which inevitably led to preterminal anemia, hypovolemia, hypotension and death.

c) Health care IS a right. The fact that no one is denied treatment proves that fact. The only question is who pays for that treatment.

d) You have mistakenly made the claim government 'has no constitutional authority to pass health care administration'. You have based that false claim on a minority opinion of the interpretation of the general welfare clause. You have the right to an opinion.

2) Access to affordable health care saves lives. The only way to achieve that under our current system is by having health insurance. Unless you are 65 years old. American life expectancy at birth ranks 30th in the world. We remain 30th for the rest of our lives -- until we reach 65. Then, our rank rises until we reach 14th at 80.

3) You mother died prematurely from a preventable disease. By smoking, she greatly increased her risk of what followed. The same applies to health insurance. Not having health insurance greatly increases your risk of dying prematurely from preventable disease. We can argue about how many people die prematurely because they don't have access to affordable health care, but the fact still remains intact.

4) When are you going to provide facts? So far you have offered only opinions and issued false claims.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

 

[Claudette]

Your Mosiah 4 answers your question, Listening. The prophet-king Benjaminn, the Priest and King over the people, theocratic and political leader, told his people that could not judge the righteousness of those asking for help, but that they had to give it.

Your own religious leaders today counsel you to take care of the needy.

You simply ignore the counsel.

You are wrong, completely, on this, morally and politically.

where in the Bible does it say we shouldn't help others as a collective? I'll wait.

Where in the Bible does it say we should force others to help others ? I'll wait.

Well Jake. I'm not religious so I could give a fuck what the bible says about the needy.

I give charity because I choose to give charity.

The Govt forces we taxpayers to provide for those that can't or won't provide for themselves. Those that make stupid irresponsible decisions that we taxpayers end up supporting. We have no choice in the matter. That frosts my ass big time.
Theres loads of freeloaders on the entitlment system. Hell 49% of the population pays no Fed taxes. Wonder what happens when that total reached 50% or 60%. More takers than providers.

If you feel obligated to assume the burden for the poor and downtroddent then have at it.

I just wish the rest of us had a choice.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

America's coming civil war....

Fortunately, it's limited to the folks who are still fighting the last one.....

.....the Republican Party.​

"Conservatives here in Kansas have already over-reached," he said. "At the national level the party has to be careful it does not over-reach by cutting too many public services."

"People may wake up and punish the party."

. . . . . . ​

 

[JakeStarkey]

Claudette, reply, of course, if you wish, but my comments were directed particularly to LDS of a particular political stripe, so your opinion concerning my reply to a LDS member is completely meaningless.

If taken in context of an outsider looking in who is not religious, your comments are worth what you think.

Your Mosiah 4 answers your question, Listening. The prophet-king Benjaminn, the Priest and King over the people, theocratic and political leader, told his people that could not judge the righteousness of those asking for help, but that they had to give it.

Your own religious leaders today counsel you to take care of the needy.

You simply ignore the counsel.

You are wrong, completely, on this, morally and politically.

Where in the Bible does it say we should force others to help others ? I'll wait.

Well Jake. I'm not religious so I could give a fuck what the bible says about the needy.

I give charity because I choose to give charity.

The Govt forces we taxpayers to provide for those that can't or won't provide for themselves. Those that make stupid irresponsible decisions that we taxpayers end up supporting. We have no choice in the matter. That frosts my ass big time.
Theres loads of freeloaders on the entitlment system. Hell 49% of the population pays no Fed taxes. Wonder what happens when that total reached 50% or 60%. More takers than providers.

If you feel obligated to assume the burden for the poor and downtroddent then have at it.

I just wish the rest of us had a choice.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Your reply reflects a LDS member out of touch with your church's counsel. You are refusing to follow counsel, and you are counseling the brethren with your refusal.

Benjamin was priest-king, political and religious leader. His counsel is law, not opinion.

Your Mosiah 4 answers your question, Listening. The prophet-king Benjaminn, the Priest and King over the people, theocratic and political leader, told his people that could not judge the righteousness of those asking for help, but that they had to give it.

Your own religious leaders today counsel you to take care of the needy.

You simply ignore the counsel.

You are wrong, completely, on this, morally and politically.

How do you know who I take care of and don't.

There is nothing in there about using political means to enforce "good works".

I'd say you are about as offbase as you can get.

 

[Listening]

Your reply reflects a LDS member out of touch with your church's counsel. You are refusing to follow counsel, and you are counseling the brethren with your refusal.

Benjamin was priest-king, political and religious leader. His counsel is law, not opinion.

Your Mosiah 4 answers your question, Listening. The prophet-king Benjaminn, the Priest and King over the people, theocratic and political leader, told his people that could not judge the righteousness of those asking for help, but that they had to give it.

Your own religious leaders today counsel you to take care of the needy.

You simply ignore the counsel.

You are wrong, completely, on this, morally and politically.

How do you know who I take care of and don't.

There is nothing in there about using political means to enforce "good works".

I'd say you are about as offbase as you can get.

Wrong on all counts....again.

Unless you want to point out where the brethren have said we should legislate "goodness" into statute and put people in jail who don't want to be good.

Good luck.

Oh, and what refusal would you be making reference to ? I am quite curious to know how you can interpret LDS doctrine, not being a member of the church yourself.

 

[Listening]

Claudette, reply, of course, if you wish, but my comments were directed particularly to LDS of a particular political stripe, so your opinion concerning my reply to a LDS member is completely meaningless.

If taken in context of an outsider looking in who is not religious, your comments are worth what you think.

Your Mosiah 4 answers your question, Listening. The prophet-king Benjaminn, the Priest and King over the people, theocratic and political leader, told his people that could not judge the righteousness of those asking for help, but that they had to give it.

Your own religious leaders today counsel you to take care of the needy.

You simply ignore the counsel.

You are wrong, completely, on this, morally and politically.

Well Jake. I'm not religious so I could give a fuck what the bible says about the needy.

I give charity because I choose to give charity.

The Govt forces we taxpayers to provide for those that can't or won't provide for themselves. Those that make stupid irresponsible decisions that we taxpayers end up supporting. We have no choice in the matter. That frosts my ass big time.
Theres loads of freeloaders on the entitlment system. Hell 49% of the population pays no Fed taxes. Wonder what happens when that total reached 50% or 60%. More takers than providers.

If you feel obligated to assume the burden for the poor and downtroddent then have at it.

I just wish the rest of us had a choice.

Hey, Dilbert....

The last I recall, you are an "outsider" too.

You've got a lot of nerve.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I am correct on every point. Check with your priesthood leadership file all the way to Stake President. You are out of touch with your church's counsel.

Your reply reflects a LDS member out of touch with your church's counsel. You are refusing to follow counsel, and you are counseling the brethren with your refusal.

Benjamin was priest-king, political and religious leader. His counsel is law, not opinion.

How do you know who I take care of and don't.

There is nothing in there about using political means to enforce "good works".

I'd say you are about as offbase as you can get.

Wrong on all counts....again.

Unless you want to point out where the brethren have said we should legislate "goodness" into statute and put people in jail who don't want to be good.

Good luck.

Oh, and what refusal would you be making reference to ? I am quite curious to know how you can interpret LDS doctrine, not being a member of the church yourself.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I am far more "in touch" with LDS doctrine and counsel than you ever will be. Your membership is apparently in name only, not action or understanding.

Claudette, reply, of course, if you wish, but my comments were directed particularly to LDS of a particular political stripe, so your opinion concerning my reply to a LDS member is completely meaningless.

If taken in context of an outsider looking in who is not religious, your comments are worth what you think.

Well Jake. I'm not religious so I could give a fuck what the bible says about the needy.

I give charity because I choose to give charity.

The Govt forces we taxpayers to provide for those that can't or won't provide for themselves. Those that make stupid irresponsible decisions that we taxpayers end up supporting. We have no choice in the matter. That frosts my ass big time.
Theres loads of freeloaders on the entitlment system. Hell 49% of the population pays no Fed taxes. Wonder what happens when that total reached 50% or 60%. More takers than providers.

If you feel obligated to assume the burden for the poor and downtroddent then have at it.

I just wish the rest of us had a choice.

Hey, Dilbert....

The last I recall, you are an "outsider" too.

You've got a lot of nerve.