America's coming civil war -- makers vs. takers Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/op

[Listening]

Bigot? Who's a bigot? I'm a Christian myself. I believe in Christ's word when he said "judge not, lest ye be judged....whoever is without sin, cast the first stone, and that which you do for the least of my people, you have dine for me"

Avatar believes in sink or swim...if you can't do it...don't expect me to....not very godly....not that I'm judging....just observing.

Actually, Avatar belongs to a group (organization) that very much believes in helping one another. To the point that they have an organized welfare system that has been in place for over 80 years. it works quite nicely. The direction of the welfare system is under priesthood direction from on high and seeks to preserve the dignity of all those who require help.

One of it's main purposes is to encourage people to be self reliant....but if you fall on hard times, it is a great safety net.

Do you always post this kind of foolishness without first asking what people think ?

More and more it is starting to look like you are the kind of person Bfgrn whines about pushing ideology instead of facts.

 

[Steelplate]

That post made little to no sense.

Really? Read your own sigline. #1 in particular.

Maybe if you just explained what you meant with with coherant sentences, I wouldnt have to. Of course, it makes more sense now.

You seem to think self reliance is ungodly. It's not. God teaches us self reliance.

10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. (2 Thess 3:10)

When people recognize that they don't need to rely on others, but they can take care of their own needs, it empowers them. Which is precisely what God wants. God empowers people.

You are a real linear thinker, aren't you? You think that because it's something YOU believe...it's what God wants.

You want scripture? Ok...I am on my kindle now and it's a pain to copy and paste...but I'll give you some that come to mind....the Beatitudes for one....the ones that I used in the other post, and finally....here's a link that should make you think about the ONE piece of scripture that you cling to.The Bible on the Poor

 

[Steelplate]

Bigot? Who's a bigot? I'm a Christian myself. I believe in Christ's word when he said "judge not, lest ye be judged....whoever is without sin, cast the first stone, and that which you do for the least of my people, you have dine for me"

Avatar believes in sink or swim...if you can't do it...don't expect me to....not very godly....not that I'm judging....just observing.

Actually, Avatar belongs to a group (organization) that very much believes in helping one another. To the point that they have an organized welfare system that has been in place for over 80 years. it works quite nicely. The direction of the welfare system is under priesthood direction from on high and seeks to preserve the dignity of all those who require help.

One of it's main purposes is to encourage people to be self reliant....but if you fall on hard times, it is a great safety net.

Do you always post this kind of foolishness without first asking what people think ?

More and more it is starting to look like you are the kind of person Bfgrn whines about pushing ideology instead of facts.

Hey...I have no problem with self reliance...in fact I advocate for it at every opportunity. But, working with the people I do (the profoundly developmentally disabled), I know that there is a heck of a lot of people who can't take care of themselves...there is also the truly mentally ill, the severely physically handicapped....and yes....people who have made some bad choices and ended up with a monkey on their back.

Teaching self reliance is one thing....saying sink or swim is another.

 

[Avatar4321]

Really? Read your own sigline. #1 in particular.

Maybe if you just explained what you meant with with coherant sentences, I wouldnt have to. Of course, it makes more sense now.

You seem to think self reliance is ungodly. It's not. God teaches us self reliance.

10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. (2 Thess 3:10)

When people recognize that they don't need to rely on others, but they can take care of their own needs, it empowers them. Which is precisely what God wants. God empowers people.

You are a real linear thinker, aren't you? You think that because it's something YOU believe...it's what God wants.

You want scripture? Ok...I am on my kindle now and it's a pain to copy and paste...but I'll give you some that come to mind....the Beatitudes for one....the ones that I used in the other post, and finally....here's a link that should make you think about the ONE piece of scripture that you cling to.The Bible on the Poor

Actually, no I think it's because that's what God says, that it's what He wants.

We do have an obligation to help one another. we as individuals, not a collective. We also have an obligation to take care of oneself and become self reliant. You have this mindset, that these are mutually exclusive concepts, but God teaches us both.

The truth is we should not and can not expect others to take care of our needs. We are better off when we realize that if we need or want something, that we need to talk with the Lord and take care of things the best we can ourselves. If we exhaust our resources and people who have more share with us their goods, that's great! But we can't expect that and would be foolish to wait around for others to give us what we want.

 

[JoeNormal]

Your beef is with yourself, you just won't admit it.

Very Zen. Maybe that means that when you rail against the government, you're actually railing against yourself.

Apply said notion to me if it makes you feel better. But how is that going to help you in this messed up world you inhabit, where you would have a whole lot more money if only other people were smart enough to realize how valuable you are?

I think you misinterpret my motives for sharing that experience. I mainly rail against the culture of greed that has escalated over the last 30 years. Of course it's irritating to see the rewards of a million dollar idea divided amongst a bunch of aging frat boys who've never had an original thought themselves but honestly, i have way more than enough to materially satisfy myself and family.

i'd like conservatives to wake up to the fact that our corporatocracy is not a meritocracy - at least at its highest levels. it's a crony culture of greedy bastards who have diverted the spoils of decades worth of shared labor and technological advancement.

 

[Steelplate]

Maybe if you just explained what you meant with with coherant sentences, I wouldnt have to. Of course, it makes more sense now.

You seem to think self reliance is ungodly. It's not. God teaches us self reliance.



When people recognize that they don't need to rely on others, but they can take care of their own needs, it empowers them. Which is precisely what God wants. God empowers people.

You are a real linear thinker, aren't you? You think that because it's something YOU believe...it's what God wants.

You want scripture? Ok...I am on my kindle now and it's a pain to copy and paste...but I'll give you some that come to mind....the Beatitudes for one....the ones that I used in the other post, and finally....here's a link that should make you think about the ONE piece of scripture that you cling to.The Bible on the Poor

Actually, no I think it's because that's what God says, that it's what He wants.

We do have an obligation to help one another. we as individuals, not a collective. We also have an obligation to take care of oneself and become self reliant. You have this mindset, that these are mutually exclusive concepts, but God teaches us both.

The truth is we should not and can not expect others to take care of our needs. We are better off when we realize that if we need or want something, that we need to talk with the Lord and take care of things the best we can ourselves. If we exhaust our resources and people who have more share with us their goods, that's great! But we can't expect that and would be foolish to wait around for others to give us what we want.

where in the Bible does it say we shouldn't help others as a collective? I'll wait.

 

[signelect]

America's coming civil war -- makers vs. takers | Fox News

Those were Abe Lincoln’s words in his first inaugural in 1861, as America was running headlong into civil war. Now we’re a house divided again and another civil war is coming, with the 2012 election as its Gettysburg.

Call it America’s coming civil war between the Makers and the Takers.

On one side are those who create wealth, America’s private sector–the very ones targeted by President Obama’s tax hikes announced Monday.

On the other are the public employee unions; left-leaning intelligentsia who see the growth of government as index of progress; and the millions of Americans now dependent on government through a growing network of government transfer payments, from Medicaid and Social Security to college loans and corporate bailouts and handouts (think GM and Solyndra).

Over the past century America’s private sector has been the source of productivity, innovation, creativity, and growth–and gave us the iPhone and iPad. The public sector has been the engine of entitlement, stagnation, and decline -- and gave us Detroit and the South Bronx.

Read more: America's coming civil war -- makers vs. takers | Fox News

******************

I somehow think that the left believes there is legitimacy to the growing number of people on government programs.

Just like the third and fourth generation welfare folks I knew in CA who got together right after the checks showed up and celebrated with a bag of weed.

I resent you using social security and medicare as part of you example. That money was mine, paid into a trust fund that was stolen by congress to repay their lobyist is my guess. Those of us who paid SS are part of the makers, not the taker. I agree with your primus but not you rather bad example.

 

[Barb]

America's coming civil war -- makers vs. takers | Fox News

Those were Abe Lincoln’s words in his first inaugural in 1861, as America was running headlong into civil war. Now we’re a house divided again and another civil war is coming, with the 2012 election as its Gettysburg.

Call it America’s coming civil war between the Makers and the Takers.

On one side are those who create wealth, America’s private sector–the very ones targeted by President Obama’s tax hikes announced Monday.

On the other are the public employee unions; left-leaning intelligentsia who see the growth of government as index of progress; and the millions of Americans now dependent on government through a growing network of government transfer payments, from Medicaid and Social Security to college loans and corporate bailouts and handouts (think GM and Solyndra).

Over the past century America’s private sector has been the source of productivity, innovation, creativity, and growth–and gave us the iPhone and iPad. The public sector has been the engine of entitlement, stagnation, and decline -- and gave us Detroit and the South Bronx.

Read more: America's coming civil war -- makers vs. takers | Fox News

******************

I somehow think that the left believes there is legitimacy to the growing number of people on government programs.

Just like the third and fourth generation welfare folks I knew in CA who got together right after the checks showed up and celebrated with a bag of weed.

I resent you using social security and medicare as part of you example. That money was mine, paid into a trust fund that was stolen by congress to repay their lobyist is my guess. Those of us who paid SS are part of the makers, not the taker. I agree with your primus but not you rather bad example.

In 1984, a Reagan campaign ad declared that it was “Morning in America.” The Economic Recovery Tax Act was responsible for long-term deficits and a cumulative revenue loss of $300 billion by the end of 1984 and $1 trillion by the end of 1987. Unlike the uppity crust that partied like rock stars for the previous four years, the rest of us picked up the party tab by way of a graduating Social Security tax increase among other “revenue enhancements.” This particular adjustment, overtly put into place in response to a modest shortfall of Social Security revenue covertly covered a national deficit that had already nearly tripled by 1983.
The possibility that the third rail of safety net entitlements could be unavailable a few decades into the future was a twofer for the Reagan Administration. The White House was eager to find an issue more pressing than the result of its fiscal policies and the President’s flippancy about millions of unemployed. For the first time since Social Security’s establishment, every one who earned up to the maximum wage taxed for the program paid gradually more each year than was needed to supply the current benefit spending. Through creative accounting and by overcharging the masses, Reagan kept the huge income tax cuts for the wealthiest, and masked the true depth of his administrations’ deficits.

My whole generation paid extra out of our earnings, money we could have invested, saved, used to pay ever increasing bills, all on the p r e m i s that it was TAKEN to see to our retirement, and we'll never SEE it.

Johnston, David Cay, Perfectly Legal; The covert campaign to rig our tax system to benefit the super rich-and cheat everybody else, USA, Penguin Group, 2003, 123-128

 

[Misty]

^ Tried hard to not say Liberals vs Conservatives, but didn't quite pull it off.

Huh?

That's known as someone who doesn't get it.

It has nothing to do with liberals vs conservatives it has to do with makers and takers which there are some in both parties.

 

[Misty]

Bigot? Who's a e not, lest ye be judged...
Avatar believes in sink or swim...if you can't do it...don't expect me to....not very godly....not that I'm judging....just observing.

Actually, Avatar belongs to a group (organization) hat people think ?More and more it is starting to look like you are the kind of person Bfgrn whines about pushing ideology instead of facts.

Hey...I have no problem with self reliance...in fact I advocate for it at every opportunity. But, working with the people I do (the profoundly developmentally disabled), I know that there is a heck of a lot of people who can't take care of themselves...there is also the truly mentally ill, the severely physically handicapped....and yes....people who have made some bad choices and ended up with a monkey on their back.

Teaching self reliance is one thing....saying sink or swim is another.

Those are not the people that are the takers being talked about.

 

[Steelplate]

Actually, Avatar belongs to a group (organization) hat people think ?More and more it is starting to look like you are the kind of person Bfgrn whines about pushing ideology instead of facts.

Hey...I have no problem with self reliance...in fact I advocate for it at every opportunity. But, working with the people I do (the profoundly developmentally disabled), I know that there is a heck of a lot of people who can't take care of themselves...there is also the truly mentally ill, the severely physically handicapped....and yes....people who have made some bad choices and ended up with a monkey on their back.

Teaching self reliance is one thing....saying sink or swim is another.

Those are not the people that are the takers being talked about.

well...by all means. Don't keep it a secret.

 

[flacaltenn]

Very Zen. Maybe that means that when you rail against the government, you're actually railing against yourself.

Apply said notion to me if it makes you feel better. But how is that going to help you in this messed up world you inhabit, where you would have a whole lot more money if only other people were smart enough to realize how valuable you are?

I think you misinterpret my motives for sharing that experience. I mainly rail against the culture of greed that has escalated over the last 30 years. Of course it's irritating to see the rewards of a million dollar idea divided amongst a bunch of aging frat boys who've never had an original thought themselves but honestly, i have way more than enough to materially satisfy myself and family.

i'd like conservatives to wake up to the fact that our corporatocracy is not a meritocracy - at least at its highest levels. it's a crony culture of greedy bastards who have diverted the spoils of decades worth of shared labor and technological advancement.

Then get your sorry technically superior ass busy and go knock down some "corporatocracy". What you say?? You can't do that because it's rigged? Well son -- how the heck did THAT HAPPEN? Because my 20 yrs in Silicoin Valley -- it happened every fucking week.. But that was BEFORE the giants got the advantage of mountains of financial regulations designed to RETARD innovative fast movers. And before corporations learned that if they placated political partisians that they could reap subsidies for shit they were gonna make anyway..

Cut the crap about corporatocracies and look at the pissy rate of IPOs.. And all the venom being spewed about Venture Capital.. YOU ARE PART OF THE Problem..

 

[JakeStarkey]

There will be no civil war, Avatar4321, only LEO actions to put down an insignificant number of Americans who can't live by constitutional, electoral process.

BTW the responses of alot of people in this thread demonstrate precisely why civil war in evitable unless we seriously change our ways and turn back to God.

 

[Listening]

You are a real linear thinker, aren't you? You think that because it's something YOU believe...it's what God wants.

You want scripture? Ok...I am on my kindle now and it's a pain to copy and paste...but I'll give you some that come to mind....the Beatitudes for one....the ones that I used in the other post, and finally....here's a link that should make you think about the ONE piece of scripture that you cling to.The Bible on the Poor

Actually, no I think it's because that's what God says, that it's what He wants.

We do have an obligation to help one another. we as individuals, not a collective. We also have an obligation to take care of oneself and become self reliant. You have this mindset, that these are mutually exclusive concepts, but God teaches us both.

The truth is we should not and can not expect others to take care of our needs. We are better off when we realize that if we need or want something, that we need to talk with the Lord and take care of things the best we can ourselves. If we exhaust our resources and people who have more share with us their goods, that's great! But we can't expect that and would be foolish to wait around for others to give us what we want.

where in the Bible does it say we shouldn't help others as a collective? I'll wait.

Where in the Bible does it say we should force others to help others ? I'll wait.

 

[Listening]

Very Zen. Maybe that means that when you rail against the government, you're actually railing against yourself.

Apply said notion to me if it makes you feel better. But how is that going to help you in this messed up world you inhabit, where you would have a whole lot more money if only other people were smart enough to realize how valuable you are?

I think you misinterpret my motives for sharing that experience. I mainly rail against the culture of greed that has escalated over the last 30 years. Of course it's irritating to see the rewards of a million dollar idea divided amongst a bunch of aging frat boys who've never had an original thought themselves but honestly, i have way more than enough to materially satisfy myself and family.

i'd like conservatives to wake up to the fact that our corporatocracy is not a meritocracy - at least at its highest levels. it's a crony culture of greedy bastards who have diverted the spoils of decades worth of shared labor and technological advancement.

It works in different directions.

First, I'd agree with you on most points.

I am not a fan of big business and the way it has hurt others by garnering government help in creating barriers to entry. An example is a (somewhat liberal) doctor friend of mine who got together with several other doctors to look at starting an insurance company that would be focused on preventive care and remediation in certain areas. They think the current system is a government protected sham.

After a lawyer and consultant explained to them how much it would cost to get through the red tape, they were not that motivated anymore.

A shame.

 

[Steelplate]

Actually, no I think it's because that's what God says, that it's what He wants.

We do have an obligation to help one another. we as individuals, not a collective. We also have an obligation to take care of oneself and become self reliant. You have this mindset, that these are mutually exclusive concepts, but God teaches us both.

The truth is we should not and can not expect others to take care of our needs. We are better off when we realize that if we need or want something, that we need to talk with the Lord and take care of things the best we can ourselves. If we exhaust our resources and people who have more share with us their goods, that's great! But we can't expect that and would be foolish to wait around for others to give us what we want.

where in the Bible does it say we shouldn't help others as a collective? I'll wait.

Where in the Bible does it say we should force others to help others ? I'll wait.

Well... like I said. When I get to pick and choose where my tax dollars go, then you can too.

but back to the Bible....Avatar said in his post that Hid does not want us to do it collectively. Quit changing the goalposts. If a person is blessed by taking care of the poor, then it makes sense that a nation that takes care of it's poor would be especially blessed. Just to throw it out there....When we had decent to good paying jobs for our population, we had tremendous growth....maybe that was God blessing us. Now that we have stepped away from that and more and more people are struggling...perhaps God is letting us reap what we sow.

 

[Listening]

where in the Bible does it say we shouldn't help others as a collective? I'll wait.

Where in the Bible does it say we should force others to help others ? I'll wait.

Well... like I said. When I get to pick and choose where my tax dollars go, then you can too.

What ? How does that apply to my question ?

but back to the Bible....Avatar said in his post that Hid does not want us to do it collectively.

As I explained, Avatar belongs to a group that is very diligent caring for others collectively while working to preserve the dignity of the individual. I am not sure what the specific disagreement is, but this seems out of whack.

Quit changing the goalposts. If a person is blessed by taking care of the poor, then it makes sense that a nation that takes care of it's poor would be especially blessed.

Free Agency is the key. A person is blessed by the intent of their heart. The parable of the Widow's Mite comes to mind. And if a group wants to donate....great. I am all about donating.

As Avatar about "Fast Offerings"

But when a nation compels you to be "good", then you've lost agency and cannot any longer discern intent.

I have seen your posts regarding the worst of situations and I agree with you. But that argument tends to be towards those (and many kids today seem to have this attitude) who think someone owes them something.

Just to throw it out there....When we had decent to good paying jobs for our population, we had tremendous growth....maybe that was God blessing us.

One of the main messages of the Book of Mormon is that this a covenant land and those who live here will be blessed if they serve the God of this Land (The Savior). However, that does not make us special or better than anyone...it makes us responsible. When you have been blessed you should bless others.....freely. Helping with a gun to your head just does not fit the bill.

I might also point out that another central theme of the Book of Mormon is that if you do serve God you are blessed. However, the book chronicles the history of a people who were blessed by God and then forgot him because they became rich and snooty. They lost his protection and were eventually humbled (often through the loss of material goods, but more often by the loss of liberty), then repented, started keeping the commandments, and were then blessed and started the whole cycle over and over again.

Now that we have stepped away from that and more and more people are struggling...perhaps God is letting us reap what we sow.

We are destroying the nuclear family.

We are stomping on God in our government (a government established....according to mormonhood.....by God through the inspired founders who put together an inspired for of government (and if you want to whine about slaver.....go ahead.....50% of something is better than 100% of nothing).

We don't care for the poor.

We have become materialistic (I live in Johnson County, Kansas....you might think Kansas as being backwards....but Johnson County typically ranks in the top 10 non-urban areas in terms of quality of life....and it has a lot of money...and the kids today have a strange attitude about that (won't lower themselves to work at McDonalds).

So I would agree with your statement.

 

[Steelplate]

my brother lives in Kansas. I've been there. works in MO but lives in KS.

 

[Listening]

my brother lives in Kansas. I've been there. works in MO but lives in KS.

If he lives in JoCo....you might know what I am talking about.

I used to drive through the student parking lot at Shawnee Mission East and count the number of cars I know I would never own (even if I could afford them).

Mind blowing.

 

[Steelplate]

my brother lives in Kansas. I've been there. works in MO but lives in KS.

If he lives in JoCo....you might know what I am talking about.

I used to drive through the student parking lot at Shawnee Mission East and count the number of cars I know I would never own (even if I could afford them).

Mind blowing.

He lives in Galena. Works at the Joplin Post Office.