America’s wealthiest families smash income ceiling, middle-class left far behind

[SteadyMercury]

Elizabeth Warren is worth millions

CNN ^
Senator Elizabeth Warren fights for middle- and working-class Americans. But she's part of the Top 1%. Warren, the Harvard bankruptcy law professor elected to the Senate in 2012, is worth between $3.7 million and $10 million.

I'm no fan of Warren, but aren't almost all senators relatively wealthy?

 

[zeke]

I'm not convinced it is a zero sum game where wealthy increasing means others are decreasing, the middle class seems fairly stagnant to me.

And you think that is what we need for a growing vibrant economy eh. A stagnant middle class?

If the CEO of the corporation you work for takes a huge bonus this year and you as a wage slave haven't seen a pay increase in the past three years, how is that a zero sum game for the working man or woman of that corporation?

 

[zeke]

I'm no fan of Warren, but aren't almost all senators relatively wealthy?

Yep. And if you get elected to the House of Reps and you are not a millionaire when you were elected, you will be a millionaire in a very short while. But most Senators have already made a fortune when they get elected.

 

[SteadyMercury]

And you think that is what we need for a growing vibrant economy eh. A stagnant middle class?

Huh? I made no statement on what is best for a growing economy, clearly the best thing would be equal growth across all income quintiles.

My problem is with OnePercenter's claim that the American middle class is living in a nightmare. The wealthy gaining more while a middle class person has the same doesn't equate to devolution into nightmare status. If I'm a middle class person who could afford x amount of shit ten years ago, and can afford same x amount of shit today, I don't understand how that life has become a nightmare just because rich guy has another ferrari.

 

[JoeNormal]

And you think that is what we need for a growing vibrant economy eh. A stagnant middle class?

Huh? I made no statement on what is best for a growing economy, clearly the best thing would be equal growth across all income quintiles.

My problem is with OnePercenter's claim that the American middle class is living in a nightmare. The wealthy gaining more while a middle class person has the same doesn't equate to devolution into nightmare status. If I'm a middle class person who could afford x amount of shit ten years ago, and can afford same x amount of shit today, I don't understand how that life has become a nightmare just because rich guy has another ferrari.

I think the nightmare status comes in the form of increasing workday pressure and increasing uncertainty regarding continued employment.

 

[SteadyMercury]

That is a fair point, but how does one quantify workday pressure? Unemployment has gone up and down through history, today we're at 5.6%, it has been over 6% at some point in just about every decade.

Obviously the word "nightmare" is subjective but to me it indicates extreme suffering, something I don't see as the norm among my friends, coworkers, or in my lower middle class neighborhood.

 

[JoeNormal]

That is a fair point, but how does one quantify workday pressure? Unemployment has gone up and down through history, today we're at 5.6%, it has been over 6% at some point in just about every decade.

Obviously the word "nightmare" is subjective but to me it indicates extreme suffering, something I don't see as the norm among my friends, coworkers, or in my lower middle class neighborhood.

I think the pressure comes from continual downsizing with expectations from management that that won't somehow affect what gets done. Then there's the extremely rapid pace of change - particularly WRT technology and new work paradigms... I know that my job satisfaction has plummeted in the last few years with the stress that seems to be disproportionately placed upon the guys in the trenches. It does sometimes give me nightmares.

 

[SteadyMercury]

Of course we're all rolling anecdotal here but my job stayed about the same, it was relatively high pressure when my career started and has remained that way. Sure I've gotten somewhat burned out by I think that is true of many people in their 40s, get the itch to go do something else.

Clearly what we need here is a Rasmussen Nightmare index.

 

[OnePercenter]

Nice opinion with no substance.

My opinion that you are full of shit with your constant boasting of wealth requires no more substance than your idiotic posts.

Without context? You haven't been reading the paper over the last 5 years?

Yes, without context. Just stating a big scary number provides zero proof to an absolute claim you made about middle class living a nightmare today, and more than me stating a big positive cheerful number proves the opposite.

Like I said you are perfect for someone who subscribes to the scary one liners at economiccollapseblog, so it is no surprise you'd use it as a source. Truly meant for the bottom intellectual bottom feeders.

Like I said, you haven't been reading the paper for five years. The wealthy and corporate America are making more money than ever, and thanks to Republicans and corporate America the middle class are getting screwed.

How is that thanks to Republicans when Democrats have been in charge for the last 6 years?

I don't know or care how they do it in Canada, but here in America, a majority of bad guys (Republicans) in Congress can fuck things up.

 

[OnePercenter]

I didn't make an error.

You don't know enough to make an error. You post ignorance that is best ignored. When you claim that "1+1 = green," there is little point in debating the issue with you.

You are a fraudulent buffoon with zero grasp of finance or economics. You've never seen a P&L, and certainly couldn't read it if one were presented to you.

You don't have the education to debate me.

You don't have the education to debate me.

That's funny, since you thought Berkshire's effective tax rate was in the low single digits.

They are, when you compare apples to apples.

 

[OnePercenter]

I understand the wealthy are making more money than ever.

Where you off the rails is your ridiculous attempts to prove the American middle class is living in a nightmare. I'm not convinced it is a zero sum game where wealthy increasing means others are decreasing, the middle class seems fairly stagnant to me.

So far you've tried to back up this assertion a few ways:

• A link to economiccollapseblog post from 2011 bemoaning the high price of gas
• Pointing to whatever slice of the population sold alll their retirement assets at bottom of market
• Throwing around big scary noncontextual number of 20 trillion
• Falling back on your hilarious "I'm so much wealthier than you" bullshit that nobody believes

Obviously none of these have convinced me of anything more than that you're a fool.

So we're on the same page.

 

[thereisnospoon]

The answer is:

-Base Federal tax or corporations at 30% of revenue.

-Raise minimum wage to $23.50/hr. Based on where minimum wage should be using 1970-2013 rise in food, shelter, and transportation.

-Eliminate all business subsidies (deductions/write-off’s/write-downs) except for employee expenses which are deducted dollar-for-dollar on all city, state, and Federal taxes and fees with the Feds refunding city, State, and fees.

-Companies with 400 employees or less, employee expenses above the deduction are subsidized at 100% with funds usually give back to the States.

-Adjust Social Security and private/public retirement and pension payments using 1970-2013 price structure.

-Remove the FICA limit.

-Back down ALL costs, prices, fees, to January 1, 2009 levels and hold them for 10 years which will eliminate inflation.

-Recall ALL off-shore investments tax free, and disallow any further off-shore investments.

-Make inversion illegal.

Wow.....
30% of gross revenue? And should businesses decide to un-incorporate then reorganize as LLC's?.....And do we kick all foreign companies out of the US? And the jobs that would be lost?
$23.50 per hour.....Say good bye to over half of America's small businesses.
Tax write offs for business are not 'subsidies'.....What do we do for businesses that do not turn a profit for the latest fiscal year?
"-Back down ALL costs, prices, fees, to January 1, 2009 levels and hold them for 10 years which will eliminate inflation."
Price controls do not work. In fact, they have an opposite effect. Price can be artificially controlled all day long. Costs always rise. The end result is rationing of products. Government should NEVER interfere in the marketplace. Such interference ALWAYS results in fiscal and economic disaster.
American business should be barred from investing outside the borders of the US? First, that is in violation of the US Constitution. Second, it's a violation of the US Code. Third and most importantly, such a proposal would be a vat of hydrochloric acid to any politician. Lastly, such an idea is patently absurd.
You talk about reducing inflation.....Artificially increasing wages is inflationary.
Lowering prices and holding them in place will have the opposite effect. Such a thing would actually cause inflation.......As products become scarce due the cost to produce being higher than the government mandated shelf price, businesses will slow or even cease production. This drives up costs for business and would have an adverse effect on employment. This is another idea which deserves the label of absurd.
Inversion would be non existent if the US had a Corp tax that was competitive with the rest of the industrialized world.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Base Federal tax or corporations at 30% of revenue.

You're an idiot.

Raise minimum wage to $23.50/hr.

Make that a cretin.

Based on where minimum wage should be using 1970-2013 rise in food, shelter, and transportation.

And you never passed a college level math class, obviously.

-Back down ALL costs, prices, fees, to January 1, 2009 levels and hold them for 10 years which will eliminate inflation.

Your understanding of the Constitution, and economics, is weaker than Obama's.

What can you offer, sir?

Advice...If one wishes to earn more, they have many options at their disposal. None of which is a handout from government in the form of a nearly 350% increase in the federal min wage.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I didn't make an error.

You don't know enough to make an error. You post ignorance that is best ignored. When you claim that "1+1 = green," there is little point in debating the issue with you.

You are a fraudulent buffoon with zero grasp of finance or economics. You've never seen a P&L, and certainly couldn't read it if one were presented to you.

You don't have the education to debate me.

You don't have the education to debate me.

That's funny, since you thought Berkshire's effective tax rate was in the low single digits.

They are, when you compare apples to apples.

The link you provided showed you were wrong.
Thanks again.

 

[SteadyMercury]

Obviously none of these have convinced me of anything more than that you're a fool.

So we're on the same page.

Yep, we can agree you are a fool.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Divided by what, numskull? It's a scam. How is the effective tax rate calculated for a corporation that had a net taxable income of minus $10 billion?

The only scam is YOU. Go away Canadian!

Effective Tax Rate Definition Investopedia

Your link says:

For corporations, the effective tax rate is computed by dividing total tax expenses by the firm's earnings before taxes.

By that definition, Berkshire's 2013 effective tax rate was 31.08%.
When you said it was low single digits, were you lying, or just stupid?

 

[OnePercenter]

The answer is:

-Base Federal tax or corporations at 30% of revenue.

-Raise minimum wage to $23.50/hr. Based on where minimum wage should be using 1970-2013 rise in food, shelter, and transportation.

-Eliminate all business subsidies (deductions/write-off’s/write-downs) except for employee expenses which are deducted dollar-for-dollar on all city, state, and Federal taxes and fees with the Feds refunding city, State, and fees.

-Companies with 400 employees or less, employee expenses above the deduction are subsidized at 100% with funds usually give back to the States.

-Adjust Social Security and private/public retirement and pension payments using 1970-2013 price structure.

-Remove the FICA limit.

-Back down ALL costs, prices, fees, to January 1, 2009 levels and hold them for 10 years which will eliminate inflation.

-Recall ALL off-shore investments tax free, and disallow any further off-shore investments.

-Make inversion illegal.

Wow.....
30% of gross revenue? And should businesses decide to un-incorporate then reorganize as LLC's?.....And do we kick all foreign companies out of the US? And the jobs that would be lost?
$23.50 per hour.....Say good bye to over half of America's small businesses.
Tax write offs for business are not 'subsidies'.....What do we do for businesses that do not turn a profit for the latest fiscal year?
"-Back down ALL costs, prices, fees, to January 1, 2009 levels and hold them for 10 years which will eliminate inflation."
Price controls do not work. In fact, they have an opposite effect. Price can be artificially controlled all day long. Costs always rise. The end result is rationing of products. Government should NEVER interfere in the marketplace. Such interference ALWAYS results in fiscal and economic disaster.
American business should be barred from investing outside the borders of the US? First, that is in violation of the US Constitution. Second, it's a violation of the US Code. Third and most importantly, such a proposal would be a vat of hydrochloric acid to any politician. Lastly, such an idea is patently absurd.
You talk about reducing inflation.....Artificially increasing wages is inflationary.
Lowering prices and holding them in place will have the opposite effect. Such a thing would actually cause inflation.......As products become scarce due the cost to produce being higher than the government mandated shelf price, businesses will slow or even cease production. This drives up costs for business and would have an adverse effect on employment. This is another idea which deserves the label of absurd.
Inversion would be non existent if the US had a Corp tax that was competitive with the rest of the industrialized world.

So lets do the math.

My company grossed $105M in 2014. Under my plan the federal tax would be $31.5M. My employee expenses for the year are $30M. My State/local taxes and fees are $11.2M. That would be a $9.2M check from the feds to put in my pocket!!!! AND reduce my taxes/employee expenses to 30% of gross which are currently at 42%. That's the way it would work at any company.

Price controls have NEVER been done in this manner, where employees benefit.

The only way you can have inflation is a rise i cost of goods and services. Under my plan, goods and services are frozen to 2009 levels thus no inflation.

Billions of Americans would have tens of billion$ to spend in the economy. Keeping the shelves stocked would be the only problem.

 

[OnePercenter]

Advice...If one wishes to earn more, they have many options at their disposal. None of which is a handout from government in the form of a nearly 350% increase in the federal min wage.

Advice: You are a sociopath, get some help.

 

[OnePercenter]

The link you provided showed you were wrong.
Thanks again.

Why is the effective tax compiled differently for a business vs an individual?

 

[OnePercenter]

Obviously none of these have convinced me of anything more than that you're a fool.

So we're on the same page.

Yep, we can agree you are a fool.

I'm smart, rich, and hung!