"And no religion, too"

[Foxfyre]

All I'm saying my friend is that if there is zero evidence of the existence of Jesus Christ, then you could not have had the experience of a relationship with Him. You earlier said that you did have that experience.

THAT is what makes your argument illogical.

Everything in my upbringing, education, and experience told me that the experience I was having was with Jesus Christ, and that I was having a relationship with Jesus Christ. When I accepted Jesus Christ into my heart at age 6, I had the experience. I continued to have that emotional connection throughout my teenage and adult years.

I was indoctrinated, from my childhood, with the belief that this experience was "a relationship with Jesus Christ."

I know that you want to believe that what you experience in connecting to the divine is unique and demonstrates a relationship with your deity.

My point to you is that this experience, which you use to "prove" your faith, isn't isolated to Christianity. Many people, in many religions, and outside of religions, also report similar experiences. We don't know enough about the brain to know what causes them, but we do know that they can be manufactured. I've had them myself--in completely irreligious settings, which include my back yard and an Incubus concert.

What you call a relationship with Jesus Christ, and believe is unique to Christianity, and thus exists to serve as proof of the veracity of your faith simply isn't unique.

I strongly suspect, for instance, that Mohammed was an epileptic. Perhaps Paul was, as well. We don't know where religion comes from, but the odds are good that it's something that comes FROM US, from inside our brains, and not from some sort of external connection to the divine (because it isn't limited to a single deity or religion).

You can want what you say to be true. But you cannot KNOW what experience I or anybody else has had and you are in no position to tell me that what I KNOW I have experienced is not real. It is as illogical for you to presume to tell me and millions of others what we have or have not experienced as it is for me to presume to tell you what sort of relationship you had with your mother.

Go back to my discussion with Drock. He is not a believer either and I respect that. But he also accepted the logic of my reasoning about what any of us can assume is real or not real for somebody else. Which also makes him reasonable and intelligent. (At least about that. )

So I still say nobody has disproved my original thesis. It is illogical to conclude that the testimony of a huge cloud of witnesses re a relationship with God/Christ or anything else is all fiction simply based on our own personal experience and/or the fact that we do not want it to be true.

 

[catzmeow]

Can you prove Time exists? 1+1=2? The shortest distance between two points is a straight line? Even math and science are rooted in Theory. Just saying.

Theory doesn't mean opinion. Theory means verifiable and based in evidence. So yes, there is verifiable evidence that time exists. There is verifiable evidence that 1+1 = 2. There is verifiable evidence that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. There is verifiable evidence of the theory of relativity. There is verifiable evidence of gravity.

It makes me sad how many people in this modern era appear to lack any understanding of basic scientific and mathematical principles.

Feel free to provide verifiable evidence of the existence of God.

 

[Sky Dancer]

We can certainly verify impermanence. We can verify birth and death.

 

[catzmeow]

You can want what you say to be true. But you cannot KNOW what experience I or anybody else has had and you are in no position to tell me that what I KNOW I have experienced is not real. It is as illogical for you to presume to tell me and millions of others what we have or have not experienced as it is for me to presume to tell you what sort of relationship you had with your mother.

From an earlier post, by you:

Obviously, if you believe he doesn't exist, you never had a relationship at all. You were simply going through the motions and 'doing Church' and stuff.

It appears to me that you are attempting to presume to tell me that my relationship with Christ wasn't real because I stopped believing in his existence. Perhaps I'm mistaken. If so, please let me know. If not, then your paragraph applies as neatly to you as it does to me.

So I still say nobody has disproved my original thesis. It is illogical to conclude that the testimony of a huge cloud of witnesses re a relationship with God/Christ or anything else is all fiction simply based on our own personal experience and/or the fact that we do not want it to be true.

You've created a strawman here. No one has suggested that your personal experiences are fictional. I believe that your personal experiences are real and verifiable. I just don't believe that they are evidence of the existence of Jesus Christ, God, YHWH or the veracity of your religion's holy book. Hope that helps you understand.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Foxfyre is God. She knows who has had a true spiritual experience and who has not.

She became God in graduate school.

 

[amrchaos]

I need a god Helmet

That sounds totally trippy!!

 

[Intense]

It's illogical to believe in God and Jesus when there is no empirical evidence of either.

You have faith, but so what?

You are free to believe or not believe, that sounds pretty rational to me. No pressure.
Can you prove Time exists? Good luck with that.

Cause and Effect? Karma? Right? Wrong? 1+1=2? The shortest distance between two points is a straight line? Even math and science are rooted in Theory. Just saying.

A lot of Buddhist sutras are debated by khenpos and found to be true, logically.

It's not my area or lineage. The Gelukpa are famous for it.

Beliefs, to me, are things I have confidence in, that I've tested in my own experience. It's like "heart knowledge".

We live in the same reality Sky. Somethings can be Proven, some remain Theory. There is no foul there. I believe that there is an order to Creation, to the Universe. I do not claim to know what that order is nor do I try to dictate to others. Buddhism is not a threat to me. I'm rooted in Judea-Christian belief, which was a part of my upbringing. When we seek Truth, Balance, the Establishment of Justice, in any Tongue, Faith, or Culture, I find nothing in that troubling to Our Creator. Conscience First, any way you put it.

 

[Sky Dancer]

You are free to believe or not believe, that sounds pretty rational to me. No pressure.
Can you prove Time exists? Good luck with that.

Cause and Effect? Karma? Right? Wrong? 1+1=2? The shortest distance between two points is a straight line? Even math and science are rooted in Theory. Just saying.

A lot of Buddhist sutras are debated by khenpos and found to be true, logically.

It's not my area or lineage. The Gelukpa are famous for it.

Beliefs, to me, are things I have confidence in, that I've tested in my own experience. It's like "heart knowledge".

We live in the same reality Sky. Somethings can be Proven, some remain Theory. There is no foul there. I believe that there is an order to Creation, to the Universe. I do not claim to know what that order is nor do I try to dictate to others. Buddhism is not a threat to me. I'm rooted in Judea-Christian belief, which was a part of my upbringing. When we seek Truth, Balance, the Establishment of Justice, in any Tongue, Faith, or Culture, I find nothing in that troubling to Our Creator. Conscience First, any way you put it.

Damn refreshing post. I'd rep ya but I'm all out for the day.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I need a god Helmet

That sounds totally trippy!!

Ask Foxfyre. She has them left over from graduate school.

 

[catzmeow]

All I'm saying my friend is that if there is zero evidence of the existence of Jesus Christ, then you could not have had the experience of a relationship with Him.

Why? Feel free to explain why this is so. I was told, as a child, by my grandmother, the person I respected most in my lifetime, that the emotional connection I was feeling was with Christ. I prayed to Christ, I worshipped Christ, and I felt a daily connection to Christ. I read through the bible multiple times, trying to know Christ better. I taught people about Christ, and I lead people to Christ. I experienced Christ's presence daily.

Why are these experiences not real, in your book? Did I know Christ, or not?

How would you possibly know what I was experiencing?

Further, how do you know that your experiences are with Christ?

Millions of Hindus testify to the existence of Lakshmi. Are their experiences fraudulent?

 

[Intense]

I need a god Helmet

That sounds totally trippy!!

I think you can find one in the Drug Store, you know which aisle.

 

[Intense]

Can you prove Time exists? 1+1=2? The shortest distance between two points is a straight line? Even math and science are rooted in Theory. Just saying.

Theory doesn't mean opinion. Theory means verifiable and based in evidence. So yes, there is verifiable evidence that time exists. There is verifiable evidence that 1+1 = 2. There is verifiable evidence that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. There is verifiable evidence of the theory of relativity. There is verifiable evidence of gravity.

It makes me sad how many people in this modern era appear to lack any understanding of basic scientific and mathematical principles.

Feel free to provide verifiable evidence of the existence of God.

Prove Time Exists.

 

[Intense]

We can certainly verify impermanence. We can verify birth and death.

Body, Yes. Spirit? Soul?

 

[koshergrl]

More people have been killed in the name of God in world history than any other reason..

Proof?

I don't have time to google every War in history, the Crusades, Terrorist attack, etc.
Do your own homework.

Good grief, when will people stop referring to the Crusades as if they resulted in unsurpassed loss of life..or even as if they had much to do with God.

The Crusades were taken in RESPONSE TO ENCROACHMENT OF MUSLIM WARLORDS. Muslims had conquered the Middle East and eastern Europe and were literally banging on the doors of France. The Crusades were a POLITICAL movement undertaken to take some of that land back for Christians (who were tired of being slaughtered in their own lands) and resulted in a relatively small loss of life, despite the length of the struggle.

 

[Intense]

You can want what you say to be true. But you cannot KNOW what experience I or anybody else has had and you are in no position to tell me that what I KNOW I have experienced is not real. It is as illogical for you to presume to tell me and millions of others what we have or have not experienced as it is for me to presume to tell you what sort of relationship you had with your mother.

From an earlier post, by you:

Obviously, if you believe he doesn't exist, you never had a relationship at all. You were simply going through the motions and 'doing Church' and stuff.

It appears to me that you are attempting to presume to tell me that my relationship with Christ wasn't real because I stopped believing in his existence. Perhaps I'm mistaken. If so, please let me know. If not, then your paragraph applies as neatly to you as it does to me.

So I still say nobody has disproved my original thesis. It is illogical to conclude that the testimony of a huge cloud of witnesses re a relationship with God/Christ or anything else is all fiction simply based on our own personal experience and/or the fact that we do not want it to be true.

You've created a strawman here. No one has suggested that your personal experiences are fictional. I believe that your personal experiences are real and verifiable. I just don't believe that they are evidence of the existence of Jesus Christ, God, YHWH or the veracity of your religion's holy book. Hope that helps you understand.

It appears to me that you are attempting to presume to tell me that my relationship with Christ wasn't real because I stopped believing in his existence. Perhaps I'm mistaken.

You are the one claiming that Christ never existed. To claim that you had a personal relationship with one who you now claim never existed is a contradiction in your logic. To make your statement true, the relationship had to be imaginary, either that or your current state. Make up your mind and go for it.

 

[Intense]

Proof?

I don't have time to google every War in history, the Crusades, Terrorist attack, etc.
Do your own homework.

Good grief, when will people stop referring to the Crusades as if they resulted in unsurpassed loss of life..or even as if they had much to do with God.

The Crusades were taken in RESPONSE TO ENCROACHMENT OF MUSLIM WARLORDS. Muslims had conquered the Middle East and eastern Europe and were literally banging on the doors of France. The Crusades were a POLITICAL movement undertaken to take some of that land back for Christians (who were tired of being slaughtered in their own lands) and resulted in a relatively small loss of life, despite the length of the struggle.

Exactly.

 

[Unkotare]

Were you absent the 7 years you were supposed to be taught about world history?
Or are you still in grade 5?

Is this your way of saying you cannot support your claim and are full of shit? Ok, got it.

Are you arguing more persons have not been killed in the name of God in world history or that it is God's fault?

I'm saying you made a claim you cannot support.

 

[Foxfyre]

You can want what you say to be true. But you cannot KNOW what experience I or anybody else has had and you are in no position to tell me that what I KNOW I have experienced is not real. It is as illogical for you to presume to tell me and millions of others what we have or have not experienced as it is for me to presume to tell you what sort of relationship you had with your mother.

From an earlier post, by you:

Obviously, if you believe he doesn't exist, you never had a relationship at all. You were simply going through the motions and 'doing Church' and stuff.

It appears to me that you are attempting to presume to tell me that my relationship with Christ wasn't real because I stopped believing in his existence. Perhaps I'm mistaken. If so, please let me know. If not, then your paragraph applies as neatly to you as it does to me.

So I still say nobody has disproved my original thesis. It is illogical to conclude that the testimony of a huge cloud of witnesses re a relationship with God/Christ or anything else is all fiction simply based on our own personal experience and/or the fact that we do not want it to be true.

You've created a strawman here. No one has suggested that your personal experiences are fictional. I believe that your personal experiences are real and verifiable. I just don't believe that they are evidence of the existence of Jesus Christ, God, YHWH or the veracity of your religion's holy book. Hope that helps you understand.

No straw man at all. I have a very real and valid relationship with Jesus Christ. I can't prove it to you any more than I can prove to you that I have been loved, what I feel, what I hope for, or how I see colors or what I smell in the air right now. That relationship has NOTHING to do with the Bible, the rites, rituals, and other trappings of the practice of religion, or any doctrine I have ever been taught.

When you presume to tell me that Jesus Christ does not exist, then you are telling me (and millions of others) that we don't really have a relationship with him. We just think we do.

And I still insist that it is illogical to claim to have a relationship with somebody and then later say that person doesn't exist. The person existed or he doesn't. If he didn't, then you didn't have a relationship. You only had an illusion of one.

It is, however, logical to say that you believed you had a relationship but you later decided that it wasn't real.

There is a very large difference between those two things.

 

[catzmeow]

[You are the one claiming that Christ never existed. To claim that you had a personal relationship with one who you now claim never existed is a contradiction in your logic. To make your statement true, the relationship had to be imaginary, either that or your current state. Make up your mind and go for it.

The experience and the relationship was real, but it was directed at an imaginary figure. It was childlike, in the same way that small children have relationships with imaginary friends. Are those relationships unreal because the friend exists only in the child's mind? Who are you to say what experiences are real?

I have similar experiences these days without the focus on Christ.

 

[catzmeow]

When you presume to tell me that Jesus Christ does not exist, then you are telling me (and millions of others) that we don't really have a relationship with him. We just think we do.

I think your experiences are real. I just believe that they are occurring with yourself.