Another perspective

[IM2]

The "bulk" of discrimination is neither verbal insults, nor physical violence.

So, what is it then?

Societal and institutional.

Institutional racism?
Like Affirmative Action, or the Minority Business Development Agency, or Black History Month?

No, more like the fact that a resume with the name "Tyrone" is half as likely to get a call back than one with the name "Steve". That black people are overwhelmingly incarcerated for crimes such as drug use, which is itself more prevalent in white communities.

This is only scratching the surface. It's more base than a few laws created to attempt to even the playing field - it's societal on a level that's deeper than that.

It's the social dynamic that tells black people that the system is stacked against them, so there's no use in even trying.

Well if all of this is true, then why do Blacks stay here?
Maybe they're masochists, or idiots?

Those things you mention are not examples of institutional racism.

We stay here because we are Americans and have the right to air our grievances in peace. Therefore we don't have to leave.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

This is hilarious. A certain type of lefty wants to believe that "no, YOU'RE a poopy head!" Becomes important social commentary if couched in bullshit, meaningless academic-sounding jargon.

If you took the OP as an attack on white people, you missed the point.

I most certainly did not.

Would you care to clarify your position?

I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean.

 

[IM2]

Wha

OK we have had multiple threads about how blacks can do this or that and usually when the subject is turned to whites the thread gets trolled or moved. How about we look at a phenomenon called White Fragility. This is a term coined by a white female, Dr. Robin Deangelo.

White people in North America live in a social environment that protects and insulates them from race-based stress. This insulated environment of racial protection builds white expectations for racial comfort while at the same time lowering the ability to tolerate racial stress, leading to what I refer to as White Fragility. White Fragility is a state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress becomes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves. These moves include the outward display of emotions such as anger, fear, and guilt, and behaviors such as argumentation, silence, and leaving the stress-inducing situation. These behaviors, in turn, function to reinstate white racial equilibrium.”

“Any white person living in the United States will develop opinions about race simply by swimming in the water of our culture. But mainstream sources—schools, textbooks, media—don’t provide us with the multiple perspectives we need. Yes, we will develop strong emotionally laden opinions, but they will not be informed opinions. Our socialization renders us racially illiterate. When you add a lack of humility to that illiteracy (because we don’t know what we don’t know), you get the break-down we so often see when trying to engage white people in meaningful conversations about race.”

Dr. Robin DiAngelo

We have heard all the many ways blacks are fucked up and how we need to change according to the many whites here. How about we now look at what WHITES can did to erase the division by race in America?

Johnnie Turner says black people have to tell their stories. People have to hear the stories or they won't know. Instead of just bonking white people over the head for being ignorant racists, why not tell the stories that would help us SEE the other side. What happens here in discussion about race never gets us anywhere because no one's perspective gets changed. We can't walk in your shoes until you tell us what it is like on a daily basis. Don't scream it at us or exaggerate it. Just tell the stories.
Just a suggestion.

While I appreciate what you have said, whites have for the better part of 2.5 centuries beat us over the head about how worthless we are. And we have asked for that to stop. It doesn't. So then when we talk to whites, once again they try establishing the rules we have to follow in order to for them to listen. And that's one of the main problems with this kind of discussion. Whites need to hear the anger and in some cases the outright hate to understand exactly what their racism has done to people. I think it's highly unfair for whites to tell us that they won't listen unless we say it to them how they want to hear it. I know you mean no harm here old lady but that is exactly what you have done. We have told you what it was like for us for at least 241 years. We have been screamed at and killed for trying to do it as well. So in my view if screaming is warranted that's what should be done. Therefore let me help you see what you have just done,.

Which whites? The ones that have majority voted for every civil rights legislation for Blacks or the ones that haven't? The ones that filibustered major legislation for Blacks or the ones that didn't? The ones that elected the first Blacks to Congress or the ones that wouldn't? The ones that have wanted Blacks to have equal access to good schools or the ones that haven't? The ones that have said Blacks can think on their own or the ones stated Blacks can't make it on their own merits?

Both.

“The lily-white movement was an all-white faction of the Republican Party in the Southern United States in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. It battled and usually defeated the biracial element called the Black-and-tan faction.


During Reconstruction, following the U.S. Civil War, black leaders in Texas and around the country gained increasing influence in the Republican Party by organizing blacks as an important voting bloc. Conservative whites attempted to eliminate this influence and recover white voters who had defected to the Democratic Party. The effort was largely successful in eliminating African-American influence in the Republican Party leading to black voters predominantly migrating to the Democratic Party for much of the 20th century.


The term lily-white movement was coined by Texas Republican leader Norris Wright Cuney, who used the term in an 1888 Republican convention to describe efforts by white conservatives to oust blacks from positions of Texas party leadership and incite riots to divide the party.[1] The term came to be used nationally to describe this ongoing movement as it further developed in the early 20th century,[2] including through the administration of Herbert Hoover. Localized movements began immediately after the war but by the beginning of the 20th century the effort had become national.”


“This movement is largely credited with driving blacks out of the Republican party during the early 20th century, setting the stage for their eventual support of the Democrats.”

Michael K. Fauntroy - Republicans and the Black vote

Now the next time you want to try making republicans what they aren't remember what you just read.

 

[SobieskiSavedEurope]

So, what is it then?

Societal and institutional.

Institutional racism?
Like Affirmative Action, or the Minority Business Development Agency, or Black History Month?

No, more like the fact that a resume with the name "Tyrone" is half as likely to get a call back than one with the name "Steve". That black people are overwhelmingly incarcerated for crimes such as drug use, which is itself more prevalent in white communities.

This is only scratching the surface. It's more base than a few laws created to attempt to even the playing field - it's societal on a level that's deeper than that.

It's the social dynamic that tells black people that the system is stacked against them, so there's no use in even trying.

Well if all of this is true, then why do Blacks stay here?
Maybe they're masochists, or idiots?

Those things you mention are not examples of institutional racism.

We stay here because we are Americans and have the right to air our grievances in peace. Therefore we don't have to leave.

So, what is it then?

Societal and institutional.

Institutional racism?
Like Affirmative Action, or the Minority Business Development Agency, or Black History Month?

No, more like the fact that a resume with the name "Tyrone" is half as likely to get a call back than one with the name "Steve". That black people are overwhelmingly incarcerated for crimes such as drug use, which is itself more prevalent in white communities.

This is only scratching the surface. It's more base than a few laws created to attempt to even the playing field - it's societal on a level that's deeper than that.

It's the social dynamic that tells black people that the system is stacked against them, so there's no use in even trying.

Well if all of this is true, then why do Blacks stay here?
Maybe they're masochists, or idiots?

Those things you mention are not examples of institutional racism.

We stay here because we are Americans and have the right to air our grievances in peace. Therefore we don't have to leave.

Large segments of Jews left Russia due to the Pogroms, and into the recent era left due to feeling anti-Semitism.

But, your Blacks stayed here in Lynchings, and recent era of anti-Black-Racism.

How come?

 

[IM2]

Societal and institutional.

Institutional racism?
Like Affirmative Action, or the Minority Business Development Agency, or Black History Month?

No, more like the fact that a resume with the name "Tyrone" is half as likely to get a call back than one with the name "Steve". That black people are overwhelmingly incarcerated for crimes such as drug use, which is itself more prevalent in white communities.

This is only scratching the surface. It's more base than a few laws created to attempt to even the playing field - it's societal on a level that's deeper than that.

It's the social dynamic that tells black people that the system is stacked against them, so there's no use in even trying.

Well if all of this is true, then why do Blacks stay here?
Maybe they're masochists, or idiots?

Those things you mention are not examples of institutional racism.

We stay here because we are Americans and have the right to air our grievances in peace. Therefore we don't have to leave.

Societal and institutional.

Institutional racism?
Like Affirmative Action, or the Minority Business Development Agency, or Black History Month?

No, more like the fact that a resume with the name "Tyrone" is half as likely to get a call back than one with the name "Steve". That black people are overwhelmingly incarcerated for crimes such as drug use, which is itself more prevalent in white communities.

This is only scratching the surface. It's more base than a few laws created to attempt to even the playing field - it's societal on a level that's deeper than that.

It's the social dynamic that tells black people that the system is stacked against them, so there's no use in even trying.

Well if all of this is true, then why do Blacks stay here?
Maybe they're masochists, or idiots?

Those things you mention are not examples of institutional racism.

We stay here because we are Americans and have the right to air our grievances in peace. Therefore we don't have to leave.

Large segments of Jews left Russia due to the Pogroms, and into the recent era left due to feeling anti-Semitism.

But, your Blacks stayed here in Lynchings, and recent era of anti-Black-Racism.

How come?

Go find that out and start a thread about it. This thread is about white fragility.

 

[Unkotare]

This is hilarious. A certain type of lefty wants to believe that "no, YOU'RE a poopy head!" Becomes important social commentary if couched in bullshit, meaningless academic-sounding jargon.

If you took the OP as an attack on white people, you missed the point.

I most certainly did not.

Would you care to clarify your position?

I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean.

It's exactly what his intention was in starting this troll thread. You buy what you want, but it's perfectly obvious. The OP clown is no different than the many (too many, when the fuck will they slither back to some stormfront closet?) racists who spew idiotic shit about "blacks can't do math" or "they should go back to Africa" or fabricate some patently false anecdote about African Americans, or whine about their physical insecurity. "You whites can't understand!" or "everything you whites do, say, or think is really racist, even if you don't think so!" is just a variation on a theme. Dressing the same divisive bullshit in terms that can be broadcast in monotone whispers on NPR as if it were 'significant' doesn't change what it is: PART OF THE PROBLEM.

 

[impuretrash]

It's exactly what his intention was in starting this troll thread. You buy what you want, but it's perfectly obvious. The OP clown is no different than the many (too many, when the fuck will they slither back to some stormfront closet?) racists who spew idiotic shit about "blacks can't do math" or "they should go back to Africa" or fabricate some patently false anecdote about African Americans, or whine about their physical insecurity. "You whites can't understand!" or "everything you whites do, say, or think is really racist, even if you don't think so!" is just a variation on a theme. Dressing the same divisive bullshit in terms that can be broadcast in monotone whispers on NPR as if it were 'significant' doesn't change what it is: PART OF THE PROBLEM.

It's the problem. Right wing reactionary movements such as the alt-right wouldn't exist if those people were interested in being logical and reaching compromises. But no, it's all or nothing with these people.

 

[SobieskiSavedEurope]

What evidence do you have that the bulk of anti-Black discrimination includes violence?
Maybe at one time, but certainly not today.

You act like there's no anti-White violence.

My co-worker was walking home in Mohegan Lake, New York , when a group of Blacks yelled "Hey White boy, what cha doing here" when they chased him down.

The "bulk" of discrimination is neither verbal insults, nor physical violence.

So, what is it then?

Societal and institutional.

Institutional racism?
Like Affirmative Action, or the Minority Business Development Agency, or Black History Month?

No, more like the fact that a resume with the name "Tyrone" is half as likely to get a call back than one with the name "Steve". That black people are overwhelmingly incarcerated for crimes such as drug use, which is itself more prevalent in white communities.

This is only scratching the surface. It's more base than a few laws created to attempt to even the playing field - it's societal on a level that's deeper than that.

It's the social dynamic that tells black people that the system is stacked against them, so there's no use in even trying.

I wonder if Whites with funny names like Cletus, Boguslav, Guido, Boris, etc. also get the same kind of treatment?

But, it seems no one cares enough about Whites like these, to conduct such a study.
Now, that must be White privilege.

 

[Unkotare]

It's exactly what his intention was in starting this troll thread. You buy what you want, but it's perfectly obvious. The OP clown is no different than the many (too many, when the fuck will they slither back to some stormfront closet?) racists who spew idiotic shit about "blacks can't do math" or "they should go back to Africa" or fabricate some patently false anecdote about African Americans, or whine about their physical insecurity. "You whites can't understand!" or "everything you whites do, say, or think is really racist, even if you don't think so!" is just a variation on a theme. Dressing the same divisive bullshit in terms that can be broadcast in monotone whispers on NPR as if it were 'significant' doesn't change what it is: PART OF THE PROBLEM.

It's the problem. Right wing reactionary movements such as the alt-right wouldn't exist if those people were interested in being logical and reaching compromises. But no, it's all or nothing with these people.

It's the idiots and assholes on ALL sides that keep picking scabs. Fearful, insecure, bitter, opportunistic, manipulative assholes all around.

 

[SobieskiSavedEurope]

What evidence do you have that the bulk of anti-Black discrimination includes violence?
Maybe at one time, but certainly not today.

You act like there's no anti-White violence.

My co-worker was walking home in Mohegan Lake, New York , when a group of Blacks yelled "Hey White boy, what cha doing here" when they chased him down.

The "bulk" of discrimination is neither verbal insults, nor physical violence.

So, what is it then?

Societal and institutional.

Institutional racism?
Like Affirmative Action, or the Minority Business Development Agency, or Black History Month?

No, more like the fact that a resume with the name "Tyrone" is half as likely to get a call back than one with the name "Steve". That black people are overwhelmingly incarcerated for crimes such as drug use, which is itself more prevalent in white communities.

This is only scratching the surface. It's more base than a few laws created to attempt to even the playing field - it's societal on a level that's deeper than that.

It's the social dynamic that tells black people that the system is stacked against them, so there's no use in even trying.

I wonder if Whites with funny names like Cletus, Boguslav, Guido, Boris, etc. also get the same kind of treatment?

But, it seems no one cares enough about Whites like these, to conduct such a study.
Now, that must be White privilege.

 

[SobieskiSavedEurope]

What evidence do you have that the bulk of anti-Black discrimination includes violence?
Maybe at one time, but certainly not today.

You act like there's no anti-White violence.

My co-worker was walking home in Mohegan Lake, New York , when a group of Blacks yelled "Hey White boy, what cha doing here" when they chased him down.

The "bulk" of discrimination is neither verbal insults, nor physical violence.

So, what is it then?

Societal and institutional.

Institutional racism?
Like Affirmative Action, or the Minority Business Development Agency, or Black History Month?

that black people are overwhelmingly incarcerated for crimes such as drug use, which is itself more prevalent in white communities.

This disparity doesn't necessarily reflect a institutionalized racism.

Blacks live in communities with general more police presence, furthermore in comparison to Whites, proportionately more Blacks live down South which appears to be harsher on drug offenders.
Also the way Blacks do drugs appears to be different, they appear to be more likely to hang out, and do drugs in city centers, as opposed to Whites who do them more in comparison in the safety of their homes.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

This is hilarious. A certain type of lefty wants to believe that "no, YOU'RE a poopy head!" Becomes important social commentary if couched in bullshit, meaningless academic-sounding jargon.

If you took the OP as an attack on white people, you missed the point.

I most certainly did not.

Would you care to clarify your position?

I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean.

It's exactly what his intention was in starting this troll thread. You buy what you want, but it's perfectly obvious. The OP clown is no different than the many (too many, when the fuck will they slither back to some stormfront closet?) racists who spew idiotic shit about "blacks can't do math" or "they should go back to Africa" or fabricate some patently false anecdote about African Americans, or whine about their physical insecurity. "You whites can't understand!" or "everything you whites do, say, or think is really racist, even if you don't think so!" is just a variation on a theme. Dressing the same divisive bullshit in terms that can be broadcast in monotone whispers on NPR as if it were 'significant' doesn't change what it is: PART OF THE PROBLEM.

Thank you for clarifying.

Setting aside the intentions of the OP, who I don't know well and haven't interacted with much, I didn't read the article in the OP as saying that "white people can't understand" or that "everything whites do, say or think is racist".

It may help to read the entire article, rather than just the parts the OP chose to quote.

White Fragility: Why It's So Hard to Talk to White People About Racism -

I read it to say that, in white people in general, there are internal obstacles to having a productive conversation about race, because any mention of it tends to be received as an attack on them.

I agree with that, and I see it all over this message board. Any mention of racism at all tends to put white posters on the defensive - both those explicit racists you mentioned before, and many of those who are not, or don't consider themselves "racist".

Take your response, for example. You and I have participated in many threads about race here. I know that you're not a racist. But you still took the OP as an attack on white people. Perhaps that's what the OP intended, but it's not what the article he's quoting intended.

 

[Unkotare]

...

I read it to say that, in white people in general, there are internal obstacles to having a productive conversation about race, because any mention of it tends to be received as an attack on them.

I agree with that, and I see it all over this message board. Any mention of racism at all tends to put white posters on the defensive - both those explicit racists you mentioned before, and many of those who are not, or don't consider themselves "racist".

Take your response, for example. You and I have participated in many threads about race here. I know that you're not a racist. But you still took the OP as an attack on white people. Perhaps that's what the OP intended, but it's not what the article he's quoting intended.

I took the OP as intended based on a familiarity with the totality of his posting history here.

As for the rest, are you white? Do you take any mention of racism as an attack on whites? I sure as hell don't. The denizens of this message board are not representative of society as a whole - to say the least.

I have recently been part of a discussion in another venue online that began among a bunch of old friends from college of all 'races' frankly and openly discussing race and other issues. These are middle-aged people of all backgrounds (and skin tones for whatever the fuck that matters) with a wide diversity of views, and the discussion couldn't have been more respectful and communicative. People have shared and learned from each other and maintained long-standing friendships across ideological divides that prove to be illusory the more they are exposed to the light. This is not new or surprising in the real world where people live, work, play, and are not afraid to really respect, listen, and learn from each other.

The worst of the internet is not the mean of society in the real world.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

...

I read it to say that, in white people in general, there are internal obstacles to having a productive conversation about race, because any mention of it tends to be received as an attack on them.

I agree with that, and I see it all over this message board. Any mention of racism at all tends to put white posters on the defensive - both those explicit racists you mentioned before, and many of those who are not, or don't consider themselves "racist".

Take your response, for example. You and I have participated in many threads about race here. I know that you're not a racist. But you still took the OP as an attack on white people. Perhaps that's what the OP intended, but it's not what the article he's quoting intended.

I took the OP as intended based on a familiarity with the totality of his posting history here.

I accept that. I, lacking that familiarity, opted to take it at face value.

As for the rest, are you white? Do you take any mention of racism as an attack on whites? I sure as hell don't. The denizens of this message board are not representative of society as a whole - to say the least.

I am about as white as one can possibly be without albinism - and no, I do not take any mention of race as an attack on myself. Nor do I believe that internet message boards are accurate samples of this country as a whole. But the population of this board is not external to the population of this country, either.

I have recently been part of a discussion in another venue online that began among a bunch of old friends from college of all 'races' frankly and openly discussing race and other issues. These are middle-aged people of all backgrounds (and skin tones for whatever the fuck that matters) with a wide diversity of views, and the discussion couldn't have been more respectful and communicative. People have shared and learned from each other and maintained long-standing friendships across ideological divides that prove to be illusory the more they are exposed to the light. This is not new or surprising in the real world where people live, work, play, and are not afraid to really respect, listen, and learn from each other.

The worst of the internet is not the mean of society in the real world.

Of course. It's much harder to hate a real-life person than it is to hate a caricature or an anonymous avatar on a message board.

I've heard many stories, from friends and from strangers, about growing up in racist homes, and there's a common thread through nearly all of them - that is, there are always exceptions to the rule.

These stories generally revolve around the one black family they knew that was "ok". Often it'll be someone they work with, or go to church with, or serve on the school board with, or anything like that - any situation where they spent a significant time the people. In some cases, it was the only black family in town. But there was always an exception like that - that it's a lot harder to hate a idea of a people than it is to hate a person in front of you.

Most of the posters here, even many of the trolls, are likely to be much more rational and normal in person.

But the freedom to be an asshole on the internet works both ways, in the sense that it allows people to openly vomit up every idea that crosses their minds, particularly the ideas that they'd never actually say to someone's face. To an extent, there's "truth" revealed by that freedom.

 

[BlackSand]

You really don't see how that paragraph you've quoted accurately reflects every post you've made in this thread?

Everything you've posted has been a defense against an attack that doesn't exist. Each post you've made positions yourself as the victim.

No one is trying to "silence" you. You're not the victim here. Stop trying to deflect to yourself.

This isn't about you.

None of it is a defense against an attack that doesn't exist.
My comments were directed at what I quoted ... Not at some make believe garbage you make up to better suit your agenda/argument.

I am not a victim ... Never have been ... Never suggested I am suffering from anything.
There is no deflection ... My comments weren't addressing anything you are trying to make them address ... Never will.
I never said anything was about me (except what I couldn't do on my grandparents behalf) ... You keep saying that .. At least to the degree that you think that is what I am expressing ... Never has been ... Never will be.

.....

If you did actually want to know what I think (which I doubt you do, but will tell you anyway) ... It is really pretty easy.

I live in a rural area that is about 50% black.
Most (not all) of the young blacks around here are fricken cowboys.
They are well mannered, easy to get along with ... And practice roping cows in the parking lot after school (when it isn't football season).
They are following in the footsteps of the fathers ... They are hard working and dependable.

Since the local School Board is under supervision of the Justice Department ... A black student can attend any school they desire in the Parish.
We do get some students from the metro area ... And when they so up they have a terrible attitude.
But ... It generally doesn't take them long to figure out that with a little hard work and initiative ... There is a whole other world out there free from the urban decay.

There isn't any white fragility here ... We don't have anything to be scared of or uncomfortable about.
If you do ... Or if you see any validity in the OP ... Then you are doing it wrong and need to square your shit away ...

.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

You really don't see how that paragraph you've quoted accurately reflects every post you've made in this thread?

Everything you've posted has been a defense against an attack that doesn't exist. Each post you've made positions yourself as the victim.

No one is trying to "silence" you. You're not the victim here. Stop trying to deflect to yourself.

This isn't about you.

None of it is a defense against an attack that doesn't exist.
My comments were directed at what I quoted ... Not at some make believe garbage you make up to better suit your agenda/argument.

I am not a victim ... Never have been ... Never suggested I am suffering from anything.
There is no deflection ... My comments weren't addressing anything you are trying to make them address ... Never will.
I never said anything was about me (except what I couldn't do on my grandparents behalf) ... You keep saying that .. At least to the degree that you think that is what I am expressing ... Never has been ... Never will be.

.....

If you did actually want to know what I think (which I doubt you do, but will tell you anyway) ... It is really pretty easy.

I live in a rural area that is about 50% black.
Most (not all) of the young blacks around here are fricken cowboys.
They are well mannered, easy to get along with ... And practice roping cows in the parking lot after school (when it isn't football season).
They are following in the footsteps of the fathers ... They are hard working and dependable.

Since the local School Board is under supervision of the Justice Department ... A black student can attend any school they desire in the Parish.
We do get some students from the metro area ... And when they so up they have a terrible attitude.
But ... It generally doesn't take them long to figure out that with a little hard work and initiative ... There is a whole other world out there free from the urban decay.

There isn't any white fragility here ... We don't have anything to be scared of or uncomfortable about.
If you do ... Or if you see any validity in the OP ... Then you are doing it wrong and need to square your shit away ...

.

To an extent, in that post I had you confused with some other posters in this thread, and I apologize. You have not, for the most part, played the victim in this thread. Instead, you've virtue-signalled how you're not a racist while utterly dismissing any complaint that a black person could have out of hand.

Your vitriolic response to this thread, from your first post in it, screams fragility.

 

[MikeK]

White Fragility and the Rules of Engagement

I have discovered (as I am sure have countless people of color) that there is apparently an unspoken set of rules for how to give white people feedback on racism.

[...]

Having read through this entire treatise on "feedback" I must say I honestly have no idea what the author is talking about. So I am asking you to tell me what exactly is the "feedback on racism" this fellow believes is limited or otherwise affected by some "unspoken set of rules?" What "set of rules." Please be specific.

Because I believe the word racism is at present the most over-used and misused word in the American lexicon I frankly do not know what its individual user means by it, and whether or not it applies to me. So I am and always have been willing to listen patiently and with sincere interest to any calmly and intelligently expressed thoughts, ideas, complaints, accusations or beliefs on the topic of racism as presented by a Black person -- presuming that is what is meant herein by "feedback." But what I have no time or patience for is a histrionic diatribe issued by some hyper-emotional, bug-eyed, arm-waving, angry negro.

 

[IM2]

White Fragility and the Rules of Engagement

I have discovered (as I am sure have countless people of color) that there is apparently an unspoken set of rules for how to give white people feedback on racism.

[...]

Having read through this entire treatise on "feedback" I must say I honestly have no idea what the author is talking about. So I am asking you to tell me what exactly is the "feedback on racism" this fellow believes is limited or otherwise affected by some "unspoken set of rules?" What "set of rules." Please be specific.

Because I believe the word racism is at present the most over-used and misused word in the American lexicon I frankly do not know what its individual user means by it, and whether or not it applies to me. So I am and always have been willing to listen patiently and with sincere interest to any calmly and intelligently expressed thoughts, ideas, complaints, accusations or beliefs on the topic of racism as presented by a Black person -- presuming that is what is meant herein by "feedback." But what I have no time or patience for is a histrionic diatribe issued by some hyper-emotional, bug-eyed, arm-waving, angry negro.

...

I read it to say that, in white people in general, there are internal obstacles to having a productive conversation about race, because any mention of it tends to be received as an attack on them.

I agree with that, and I see it all over this message board. Any mention of racism at all tends to put white posters on the defensive - both those explicit racists you mentioned before, and many of those who are not, or don't consider themselves "racist".

Take your response, for example. You and I have participated in many threads about race here. I know that you're not a racist. But you still took the OP as an attack on white people. Perhaps that's what the OP intended, but it's not what the article he's quoting intended.

I took the OP as intended based on a familiarity with the totality of his posting history here.

As for the rest, are you white? Do you take any mention of racism as an attack on whites? I sure as hell don't. The denizens of this message board are not representative of society as a whole - to say the least.

I have recently been part of a discussion in another venue online that began among a bunch of old friends from college of all 'races' frankly and openly discussing race and other issues. These are middle-aged people of all backgrounds (and skin tones for whatever the fuck that matters) with a wide diversity of views, and the discussion couldn't have been more respectful and communicative. People have shared and learned from each other and maintained long-standing friendships across ideological divides that prove to be illusory the more they are exposed to the light. This is not new or surprising in the real world where people live, work, play, and are not afraid to really respect, listen, and learn from each other.

The worst of the internet is not the mean of society in the real world.

You are not familiar with the totality of my posting here. You have made assumptions that are consistent with the things descried as white fragility.

 

[IM2]

...

I read it to say that, in white people in general, there are internal obstacles to having a productive conversation about race, because any mention of it tends to be received as an attack on them.

I agree with that, and I see it all over this message board. Any mention of racism at all tends to put white posters on the defensive - both those explicit racists you mentioned before, and many of those who are not, or don't consider themselves "racist".

Take your response, for example. You and I have participated in many threads about race here. I know that you're not a racist. But you still took the OP as an attack on white people. Perhaps that's what the OP intended, but it's not what the article he's quoting intended.

I took the OP as intended based on a familiarity with the totality of his posting history here.

I accept that. I, lacking that familiarity, opted to take it at face value.

As for the rest, are you white? Do you take any mention of racism as an attack on whites? I sure as hell don't. The denizens of this message board are not representative of society as a whole - to say the least.

I am about as white as one can possibly be without albinism - and no, I do not take any mention of race as an attack on myself. Nor do I believe that internet message boards are accurate samples of this country as a whole. But the population of this board is not external to the population of this country, either.

I have recently been part of a discussion in another venue online that began among a bunch of old friends from college of all 'races' frankly and openly discussing race and other issues. These are middle-aged people of all backgrounds (and skin tones for whatever the fuck that matters) with a wide diversity of views, and the discussion couldn't have been more respectful and communicative. People have shared and learned from each other and maintained long-standing friendships across ideological divides that prove to be illusory the more they are exposed to the light. This is not new or surprising in the real world where people live, work, play, and are not afraid to really respect, listen, and learn from each other.

The worst of the internet is not the mean of society in the real world.

Of course. It's much harder to hate a real-life person than it is to hate a caricature or an anonymous avatar on a message board.

I've heard many stories, from friends and from strangers, about growing up in racist homes, and there's a common thread through nearly all of them - that is, there are always exceptions to the rule.

These stories generally revolve around the one black family they knew that was "ok". Often it'll be someone they work with, or go to church with, or serve on the school board with, or anything like that - any situation where they spent a significant time the people. In some cases, it was the only black family in town. But there was always an exception like that - that it's a lot harder to hate a idea of a people than it is to hate a person in front of you.

Most of the posters here, even many of the trolls, are likely to be much more rational and normal in person.

But the freedom to be an asshole on the internet works both ways, in the sense that it allows people to openly vomit up every idea that crosses their minds, particularly the ideas that they'd never actually say to someone's face. To an extent, there's "truth" revealed by that freedom.

I'll tell you what "familiarity" we have, me and unkotare. He went in on me about being a racist almost immediately after I came here talking about white racism. He decided I was a racist when I decided to employ the same techniques on whites who told me that I should be grateful to whites for my freedom, or called us gorillas, apes, monkeys and coons. So when I returned to them what they gave to make them feel how we do when we are called such things this idiot decided I was a racist. and now no matter what I have to get his stupid lectures about me being a racist even as I am in no way one. He doesn't seem to understand that using those words had nothing to do with how I feel about whites but it was a teaching moment for whites calling us the n word, gorillas, monkeys, coons and other similar slurs. And while I saw all those things being said about blacks he ignored them to tell me about what kind of racist I am according to him. This is exactly what this article is about.

 

[IM2]

White Fragility and the Rules of Engagement

I have discovered (as I am sure have countless people of color) that there is apparently an unspoken set of rules for how to give white people feedback on racism.

[...]

Having read through this entire treatise on "feedback" I must say I honestly have no idea what the author is talking about. So I am asking you to tell me what exactly is the "feedback on racism" this fellow believes is limited or otherwise affected by some "unspoken set of rules?" What "set of rules." Please be specific.

Because I believe the word racism is at present the most over-used and misused word in the American lexicon I frankly do not know what its individual user means by it, and whether or not it applies to me. So I am and always have been willing to listen patiently and with sincere interest to any calmly and intelligently expressed thoughts, ideas, complaints, accusations or beliefs on the topic of racism as presented by a Black person -- presuming that is what is meant herein by "feedback." But what I have no time or patience for is a histrionic diatribe issued by some hyper-emotional, bug-eyed, arm-waving, angry negro.

Feedback is her talking about discussions on race where non whites provide their opinions to whites about their feelings about the racism they see. Now while you believe the word is overused, I posit it is overused by whites primarily who see any mention of racism done by whites as racism against whites.

The problem with those like you is that you is that any time a black person talks about racism you see them as hyper emotional, bug eyed arm waving and angry. Secondly, why do we have to endure a system based upon hyper emotional, arm waving angry whites who base that system on diatribes all day every day? You expect that a system based on the very angry arm waving you don't want to hear is going to produce calm people who will discuss this issue in a manner you feel comfortable with. And this is all part of white fragility.

So maybe you think about this the next time you decide to use a term such as coon, or when you see one of your fellow whites talking about how we are supposed to be naturally dumber than whites. You aren't going to get a calm discussion with words said how you want to hear them after we see ourselves being called coons, monkeys, gorillas, the n word, or told how dumb we are, or how we don't want to work or get educated, and all our men want to do is fuck women and take no responsibility for our children, that al black women want to do is have children to get a government check and that the only reason we complain about white racism is because we are failures so we blame whites.

What I have no time and patience for is that.