Arizona Senate Passes Bill Allowing Business Owners To Refuse Service To Gays

[Jarhead]

They'll never get it past Title 9.

Besides, how the hell would anyone know who is, or isn't gay?

When you go to a printer and ask for wedding invitations and the announcement says "Joan Smith and Jane Davis wish to invite you to their wedding" - that would be a hint.

When you go to a baker and ask for wedding cake want the figures on top to both be male - that would be a hint.

When you go to the County Clerk's office for a wedding license and spouses are both named Edward - that would be a hint.



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then I think there should be a law saying two men named Edward are NOT allowed to marry. That should resolve your third point.

 

[WorldWatcher]

fair point.

:d


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[WorldWatcher]

They'll never get it past Title 9.

Besides, how the hell would anyone know who is, or isn't gay?

When you go to a printer and ask for wedding invitations and the announcement says "Joan Smith and Jane Davis wish to invite you to their wedding" - that would be a hint.

When you go to a baker and ask for wedding cake want the figures on top to both be male - that would be a hint.

When you go to the County Clerk's office for a wedding license and spouses are both named Edward - that would be a hint.



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then I think there should be a law saying two men named Edward are NOT allowed to marry. That should resolve your third point.

You know if you do that two guys named Edward wouldn't be able to get married but John and James could - right?


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[Katzndogz]

It depends on what service it is. If a gay couple walk into a bakery and want to buy two dozen chocolate chip cookies it is wrong to refuse to serve them. If they want a personal service like a wedding cake, the baker should be allowed to refuse the service. That's a personal service. Since we don't allow slavery, anyone should be allowed to refuse to perform personal services at any time.

It's not up to the People to accommodate the discriminatory whims of a business. It's up to the business to accommodate the non-discriminatory laws of the land,

or get out of that business.

Just stop offering wedding cakes to the general public. There will be two kinds of bakers. Ones that do business with the public no matter who they are, and others where you have to know them, or know someone who does know them. Gays will have no complaint. They will be forced to patronize ONLY those bakers willing to do business with them. Which is the way it should be anyway.

 

[Iceweasel]

Just stop offering wedding cakes to the general public. There will be two kinds of bakers. Ones that do business with the public no matter who they are, and others where you have to know them, or know someone who does know them. Gays will have no complaint. They will be forced to patronize ONLY those bakers willing to do business with them. Which is the way it should be anyway.

That's a bit naive. What happens is that if they find out you don't offer gay versions they make it a point to target you for jail or bankruptcy. Gays are so sweet.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Just stop offering wedding cakes to the general public. There will be two kinds of bakers. Ones that do business with the public no matter who they are, and others where you have to know them, or know someone who does know them. Gays will have no complaint. They will be forced to patronize ONLY those bakers willing to do business with them. Which is the way it should be anyway.

That's a bit naive. What happens is that if they find out you don't offer gay versions they make it a point to target you for jail or bankruptcy. Gays are so sweet.

He didn't say you don't offer "gay versions" to the general public, he said you don't offer "any" versions to the general public.


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[Katzndogz]

Just stop offering wedding cakes to the general public. There will be two kinds of bakers. Ones that do business with the public no matter who they are, and others where you have to know them, or know someone who does know them. Gays will have no complaint. They will be forced to patronize ONLY those bakers willing to do business with them. Which is the way it should be anyway.

That's a bit naive. What happens is that if they find out you don't offer gay versions they make it a point to target you for jail or bankruptcy. Gays are so sweet.

That's not the way it works. It's not that they don't offer gay versions. They don't offer versions at all. Unless you know them personally, or know someone who can vouch for you.

I went through this myself when I refused to pay the portrait of a lesbian couple. They took me to court and I won.

 

[dblack]

Just stop offering wedding cakes to the general public. There will be two kinds of bakers. Ones that do business with the public no matter who they are, and others where you have to know them, or know someone who does know them. Gays will have no complaint. They will be forced to patronize ONLY those bakers willing to do business with them. Which is the way it should be anyway.

That's a bit naive. What happens is that if they find out you don't offer gay versions they make it a point to target you for jail or bankruptcy. Gays are so sweet.

That's not the way it works. It's not that they don't offer gay versions. They don't offer versions at all. Unless you know them personally, or know someone who can vouch for you.

I went through this myself when I refused to pay the portrait of a lesbian couple. They took me to court and I won.

A cake 'buyers club'.

 

[bendog]

Just stop offering wedding cakes to the general public. There will be two kinds of bakers. Ones that do business with the public no matter who they are, and others where you have to know them, or know someone who does know them. Gays will have no complaint. They will be forced to patronize ONLY those bakers willing to do business with them. Which is the way it should be anyway.

That's a bit naive. What happens is that if they find out you don't offer gay versions they make it a point to target you for jail or bankruptcy. Gays are so sweet.

That's not the way it works. It's not that they don't offer gay versions. They don't offer versions at all. Unless you know them personally, or know someone who can vouch for you.

I went through this myself when I refused to pay the portrait of a lesbian couple. They took me to court and I won.

Couldn't you have saved the effort and simply painted them as horned devils splashing gleefully in the blood of our sacred savior?

 

[Katzndogz]

Not a club, just not offered to the public. These kinds of private arrangements are made all the time. It will just expand. Some gay couple wanting a wedding cake will call up a bakery out of the phone book, or take the recommendation of a gay couple who had a wedding cake. Walk into the photographer's store down the street and find out they don't do wedding photos. But they KNOW that other couples got their wedding photographed by this particular photographer. It doesn't matter. Did the photographer advertise as a wedding photographer? If you go into the studio are there shots of other weddings displayed. If a service is not advertised to the general public, the service does not come under public accommodation laws. This was the holding in the New Mexico case against the photographer. It goes for ANY service at all, or any accommodation.

 

[Katzndogz]

That's a bit naive. What happens is that if they find out you don't offer gay versions they make it a point to target you for jail or bankruptcy. Gays are so sweet.

That's not the way it works. It's not that they don't offer gay versions. They don't offer versions at all. Unless you know them personally, or know someone who can vouch for you.

I went through this myself when I refused to pay the portrait of a lesbian couple. They took me to court and I won.

Couldn't you have saved the effort and simply painted them as horned devils splashing gleefully in the blood of our sacred savior?

I have no objections to homosexuality based on religion whatsoever. It is simply none of my business. I would not participate in a same sex wedding. And, I didn't have to as it turns out. And, in a way, I really enjoyed sticking it to them legally. I hope they ran up a ton of legal bills owed to their gay lawyer. Yes, I rather enjoyed watching them make a fool out of themselves.

 

[Iceweasel]

That's not the way it works. It's not that they don't offer gay versions. They don't offer versions at all. Unless you know them personally, or know someone who can vouch for you.

I went through this myself when I refused to pay the portrait of a lesbian couple. They took me to court and I won.

What the hell are you talking about? You think a baker can stay in business by doing cakes for family and friends or references? Even then you can have problems in some areas once they get wind of you.

 

[Katzndogz]

That's not the way it works. It's not that they don't offer gay versions. They don't offer versions at all. Unless you know them personally, or know someone who can vouch for you.

I went through this myself when I refused to pay the portrait of a lesbian couple. They took me to court and I won.

What the hell are you talking about? You think a baker can stay in business by doing cakes for family and friends or references? Even then you can have problems in some areas once they get wind of you.

Of course they can. Bakeries sell much more than wedding cakes. Some really don't offer the service at all and never did. Bakeries sell pies, cakes, cookies, cupcakes pastries, they sell all kinds of baked goods and no one ever complained that gays were prohibited from buying their petit fours. A bakery could not remain in business ONLY offering wedding cakes though. There would be no problems. There isn't an injunction against bakers telling them they either accommodate gay wedding cakes or they can't make any wedding cakes at all. Only if they offer services to the general public, they cannot refuse a same sex wedding cake or same sex wedding photography or the like.

 

[Againsheila]

It's not up to the People to accommodate the discriminatory whims of a business. It's up to the business to accommodate the non-discriminatory laws of the land,

or get out of that business.

It's a special order, everyone should have the right to refuse a special order, for whatever reason. What if they are too busy and don't have enough decorators or bakers?

If you refuse an order because they don't have enough decorators or bakers that is a perfectly valid reason and not based on race, religion, ethnicity, gender, etc.



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And by that thinking, all they have to do is say they don't have the ability to fulfill the order. They are still discriminating, they're just lying about why.

 

[Againsheila]

They'll never get it past Title 9.

Besides, how the hell would anyone know who is, or isn't gay?

That was my point, but apparently this has come about because some Christians refused to do a wedding cake for a gay couple.

 

[Iceweasel]

Of course they can. Bakeries sell much more than wedding cakes. Some really don't offer the service at all and never did. Bakeries sell pies, cakes, cookies, cupcakes pastries, they sell all kinds of baked goods and no one ever complained that gays were prohibited from buying their petit fours.

Probably because there was no gay litmus test to qualify for the purchase. That isn't the point. Making a gay wedding cake on demand isn't the same thing as screening people for sexual orientation, I don't know anyone proposing that.

A bakery could not remain in business ONLY offering wedding cakes though. There would be no problems. There isn't an injunction against bakers telling them they either accommodate gay wedding cakes or they can't make any wedding cakes at all. Only if they offer services to the general public, they cannot refuse a same sex wedding cake or same sex wedding photography or the like.

Yes, that's the problem. I fail to see how you can sell to the public without selling to the public.

 

[Againsheila]

They'll never get it past Title 9.

Besides, how the hell would anyone know who is, or isn't gay?

When you go to a printer and ask for wedding invitations and the announcement says "Joan Smith and Jane Davis wish to invite you to their wedding" - that would be a hint.

When you go to a baker and ask for wedding cake want the figures on top to both be male - that would be a hint.

When you go to the County Clerk's office for a wedding license and spouses are both named Edward - that would be a hint.



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Apparently, you haven't watched Firefly....

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWGP5Od2ID0]Hero Of Canton - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Mustang]

I think another state passed something similar to this last week so this must be a trend that is catching on. I agree with this bill that if you are a business owner and believe in and live by your faith that you should be able to refuse service to whoever you want.


Arizona Senate: Business owners can cite religion to refuse service to gays
Arizona Senate: Business owners can cite religion to refuse service to gays

You would be wrong then. In your private life, you can choose to associate with whomever you please. Businesses however, are public accommodations which are licensed to operate by the state. You don't get to choose who you will and won't serve in your business. As long as people behave in a lawful manner (for example, they're not creating a disturbance, or they're not intoxicated), you must serve them or sell to them if they want to buy something. It doesn't mean that you have to invite them into your home. It doesn't even mean you have to like them. As a matter of fact, if business owners only sold to the people they liked, they would soon be out of business.

 

[OnePercenter]

If Jones doesn't veto this, Arizona, the number 2 working class state in the US will become a blue state. Another Republican duct tape fail.

 

[Iceweasel]

You would be wrong then. In your private life, you can choose to associate with whomever you please. Businesses however, are public accommodations which are licensed to operate by the state. You don't get to choose who you will and won't serve in your business.

Wrong. Businesses are not public accomodations. And not all businesses need a license. You can refuse service but you can't make the reason race or gender. EXCEPT now the gays are claiming their relationships are equally protected under the law. That only exists where locales allow it to occur, it isn't Constitutionally protected.