Axios reported, “Unsold electric cars are piling up on dealer lots.”

[22lcidw]

The poor and middle class can’t afford new vehicles period

They can. Interference has occurred over so many decades. Reduce the endless safety craziness to start. MPG is important however in safety reduction mandates an accommodation can be made. Improve emissions in diesel.

 

[Markle]

Also with older apartments there's no place to plug in a car.

It is ONLY about $2,500 for your own charging station.

Then again, in most apartment buildings, you don't have a fixed parking space. What do they do?

 

[JohnDB]

It is ONLY about $2,500 for your own charging station.

Then again, in most apartment buildings, you don't have a fixed parking space. What do they do?

Exactly my point.
Approximately half of US residents live in multi-family housing (apartments and condos)
Then they work elsewhere (even though many more now work from home) and park in a parking garage or lot. Which could be retrofitted to have the charging systems but it's going to be expensive for EVERYONE. Commercial rates for electricity are much higher than residential rates. PLUS the codes are such that they can't provide enough electricity to charge the cars in a parking lot anyway.

 

[LeftofLeft]

The poor and middle class can’t afford new vehicles period

So why would you people (Democrats, Liberals, Republican haters, etc.) support such asinine policies and plans that push or force the poor into electric vehicles which have an average used price of $40,000 whereas used gas-powered cars have an average price of $30,000??

Green Energy Programs are going to erode the Middle Class and make the poor poorer.

 

[FA_Q2]

Start with your claim that ice cores tell us nothing useful

I said nothing about them telling us 'nothing useful.' I stated that they are not something that can accurately model climate change because there are no artificial sources of CO2 present in those cores. The general statement you see most often using ice cores notes that CO2 is a lagging indicator of climate change, or, put simpler that CO2 does not drive warmer temperatures.

That is not accurate and it is so because those cores do not give us the conditions that exist today. There is also the fact that accurately measuring global temperatures in the deep past does not compare with accurately measuring temperatures today with advanced measuring instruments. What we can get is a more accurate picture of what Earth's atmosphere looked like in the past, at the surface at least. I notice you did not say anything in your post outlining how they are useful for modeling future climate change. Why don't you give us more than bland questions and actually say something of substance.

 

[FA_Q2]

Exactly my point.
Approximately half of US residents live in multi-family housing (apartments and condos)
Then they work elsewhere (even though many more now work from home) and park in a parking garage or lot. Which could be retrofitted to have the charging systems but it's going to be expensive for EVERYONE. Commercial rates for electricity are much higher than residential rates. PLUS the codes are such that they can't provide enough electricity to charge the cars in a parking lot anyway.

And, more importantly IMHO, even if those systems were in place there is, essentially, no real cost savings for the customer because the batteries on those cars eat the entire fuel savings when they need to be replaced. There was a thread on this here awhile back. Without new battery technology, which will come at some point, I do not see how EV's will becomes the norm.

 

[Markle]

And, more importantly IMHO, even if those systems were in place there is, essentially, no real cost savings for the customer because the batteries on those cars eat the entire fuel savings when they need to be replaced. There was a thread on this here awhile back. Without new battery technology, which will come at some point, I do not see how EV's will becomes the norm.

I don't see battery technology improving enough to make them feasible for decades to come if ever.

The first electric car was invented around 1850. That's nearly 200 years ago and the range hasn't improved that much.

 

[FA_Q2]

I don't see battery technology improving enough to make them feasible for decades to come if ever.

The first electric car was invented around 1850. That's nearly 200 years ago and the range hasn't improved that much.

I think you underestimate modern tech.

https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/courses/compsci111s2c/lectures/andre/computerhope_com_issues_ch000984.pdf

The first computer was invented in the 1800's as well. It took modern elements to make the idea useful though over a hundred years later. Battery tech is progressing. I have no idea if it will be 'decades' but I doubt it. I can guarantee that it will happen though. Never is just not in the cards.

 

[JohnDB]

I don't see battery technology improving enough to make them feasible for decades to come if ever.

The first electric car was invented around 1850. That's nearly 200 years ago and the range hasn't improved that much.

Yeah....
Most of them were trucks used for hauling cargo short distances. They didn't have pneumatic tires either so the ride was rough. Also they didn't haul much cargo either....the electric grid was pathetic at the time too.
By the time they started the hoover dam ICE trucks were employed. Mack trucks with the little bulldog were the best with the fewest breakdowns. All the truck drivers were essentially private contractors on that job.

However,
Actually Elon Musk's research firms have made a huge breakthrough in electric motor technology that used to be a static. He has developed a new motor that is 10 or 30% (can't remember the details) more efficient than a standard electric motor in the way the coils are placed and turned. Made for precisely the way we drive in traffic with the "coasting" of a car not sucking the life out of the batteries.
Where this is not new battery technology....it is a help.

Where electric cars are not viable and with modern technology not going to be...

We could still use a viable alternative for independent travel method for people. Which doesn't have to be an automobile. There are other solutions possible that doesn't require gasoline. I have no idea if they are viable or not....but cheap power is always a good thing.

Currently there's enough cheap petroleum to go around...that doesn't mean that it's always going to be this way. And cheap petroleum keeps funding some of the world's worst actors.

 

[FA_Q2]

Yeah....
Most of them were trucks used for hauling cargo short distances. They didn't have pneumatic tires either so the ride was rough. Also they didn't haul much cargo either....the electric grid was pathetic at the time too.
By the time they started the hoover dam ICE trucks were employed. Mack trucks with the little bulldog were the best with the fewest breakdowns. All the truck drivers were essentially private contractors on that job.

However,
Actually Elon Musk's research firms have made a huge breakthrough in electric motor technology that used to be a static. He has developed a new motor that is 10 or 30% (can't remember the details) more efficient than a standard electric motor in the way the coils are placed and turned. Made for precisely the way we drive in traffic with the "coasting" of a car not sucking the life out of the batteries.
Where this is not new battery technology....it is a help.

Where electric cars are not viable and with modern technology not going to be...

We could still use a viable alternative for independent travel method for people. Which doesn't have to be an automobile. There are other solutions possible that doesn't require gasoline. I have no idea if they are viable or not....but cheap power is always a good thing.

Currently there's enough cheap petroleum to go around...that doesn't mean that it's always going to be this way. And cheap petroleum keeps funding some of the world's worst actors.

What other methods of mass travel are there that, most importantly, will be adapted by the public? Public transportation can take the place of cars for the most part if all the cash we spend on them were instead pored into more effective means of public transportation. The problem is most people simply are not interested. We like our cars and rightly so, they give us a lot of freedom to do what we want whenever the hell we want to. No matter how good point to point public transportation becomes it will never rival that of a car or come close to being able to get you to the grocery store and back with as much ease as a POV.

 

[JohnDB]

What other methods of mass travel are there that, most importantly, will be adapted by the public? Public transportation can take the place of cars for the most part if all the cash we spend on them were instead pored into more effective means of public transportation. The problem is most people simply are not interested. We like our cars and rightly so, they give us a lot of freedom to do what we want whenever the hell we want to. No matter how good point to point public transportation becomes it will never rival that of a car or come close to being able to get you to the grocery store and back with as much ease as a POV.

I've worked and lived around small airports often. The number of people who have pilot's licenses is huge. Small single prop and double prop planes come and go all day and night long.
Obviously pilots love to fly.
Some small airports like these even have free loaner cars for pilots to borrow.

Then there's those people who have boats. Marina and docks on every body of water there is.

People love being able to travel independently by any means available to them. If electric travel was viable people would have been doing it already.

 

[JohnDB]

 

[Smokin' OP]

Hybrids most definitely are electric cars. They use virtually the same technology.

The only alternative power vehicle I would consider buying.
They should have just made and invested in hybrids.
Then when they perfected the battery, that wasn't lithium, then move on to 100% electric.
As it is now, you have cell phones catching fire, let alone a battery 1000 times as large.
Another consideration people don't account for is most home electrical panels are pretty much full of breakers, and to add a charging station will overload it, some require a double pole 50 amp breaker.
So you might have to upgrade the panel.

 

[FA_Q2]

I've worked and lived around small airports often. The number of people who have pilot's licenses is huge. Small single prop and double prop planes come and go all day and night long.
Obviously pilots love to fly.
Some small airports like these even have free loaner cars for pilots to borrow.

Then there's those people who have boats. Marina and docks on every body of water there is.

People love being able to travel independently by any means available to them. If electric travel was viable people would have been doing it already.

I don't understand?

I thought you were saying that there were alternatives to standard ICE vehicles for general travel. Obviously aircraft and boats are not it. I, of course, agree that electrical cars are not viable as evidenced by the almost universal rejection of them but I don't see any concept replacing the ICE before EV. I do not think that we are all that far off of making the tech work but I may just be overly positive with tech. We have done some pretty fucking amazing shit over the last 40 years and it is not slowing down.

 

[FA_Q2]

The only alternative power vehicle I would consider buying.
They should have just made and invested in hybrids.
Then when they perfected the battery, that wasn't lithium, then move on to 100% electric.
As it is now, you have cell phones catching fire, let alone a battery 1000 times as large.
Another consideration people don't account for is most home electrical panels are pretty much full of breakers, and to add a charging station will overload it, some require a double pole 50 amp breaker.
So you might have to upgrade the panel.

That is likely the path we are taking IMHO. I actually expected hybrids to be more popular than they are now. There are very few drawbacks to using some of that wasted energy in an ICE to move your car, essentially, for free.

 

[Markle]

That is likely the path we are taking IMHO. I actually expected hybrids to be more popular than they are now. There are very few drawbacks to using some of that wasted energy in an ICE to move your car, essentially, for free.

I agree.

Few people know that Formula I racecars are hybrids. The most sophisticated racecars in the world and the fastest. They can reach 230 mph. A major difference though is that they use the energy from their huge braking requirements to charge the battery. That energy doesn't extend their mileage but adds about 160 hp to the car.

 

[JohnDB]

I don't understand?

I thought you were saying that there were alternatives to standard ICE vehicles for general travel. Obviously aircraft and boats are not it. I, of course, agree that electrical cars are not viable as evidenced by the almost universal rejection of them but I don't see any concept replacing the ICE before EV. I do not think that we are all that far off of making the tech work but I may just be overly positive with tech. We have done some pretty fucking amazing shit over the last 40 years and it is not slowing down.

I was saying that there needs to be a way to accommodate the independent travel desires of the people. We love traveling independently. If not automobiles, boats and airplanes then horses, mules and lamas.
ICE is a very easy and effective means to travel. The main problem with electric motors is the energy we currently use for them is heavy, cumbersome, and doesn't carry enough watts per pound to go very far.
(Watts equalling a measure of work)
Gasoline and diesel carry a lot of watts per pound....which is why they are used often.

We can build a vehicle with a 30mpg (gasoline) efficiency kinda easily....but load it up with a 100 gallon tank to hold its fuel and your mpg goes down considerably until the tank gets emptied to about 5 gallons left in it.
In the case of an electric car the batteries don't get lighter as they run out of juice.

Meaning the concept of an electric car is defunct to begin with.

We need a new technology all the way around.

 

[DudleySmith]

How do EV's in the USA go toward offsetting the two coal plants a week China is opening?

lol ....

Energy FAQ

Energy FAQ - How much coal does the United States export and to where?

www.energybot.com

EV's are just a scam. So is 'Solar' and 'wind' power; the amount of land needed to replace a gigawatt nuclear plant is staggering, and the regions most suited for such generation are far far away from where the most power usage is needed. It's just a giant corporate welfare scam.

 

[DudleySmith]

The idea is to stop people from traveling......not to replace their transportation

Yes. A local humor columnist years ago summed it up perfectly.

"I'm all for a lot more public transportation; it will make my drive downtown a lot more pleasant with fewer cars on the road."