Bain Capital closing Illinois Plant

[Shelzin]

Guy, you're bullshit charts don't mean anything.

20K in 1976 is worth a lot more than 40K in 2006.

I also note your dishonest charts stop in 2006... you know, right before you douchebags crashed the entire economy.

Fuck, I'd love to have my 2006 salary back. So would most people I know.

you don't like facts that controvert your agenda...Figures

You are in no position currently to say that. Not without looking like a hypocrite.

 

[JoeB131]

Guy, you're bullshit charts don't mean anything.

20K in 1976 is worth a lot more than 40K in 2006.

I also note your dishonest charts stop in 2006... you know, right before you douchebags crashed the entire economy.

Fuck, I'd love to have my 2006 salary back. So would most people I know.

yeah yeah yeah..
In 1976 compared to 2006..
20k in 1976 dollars was $57k in 2006
Lets look at this a little more objectively

]

And Toro's bullshit chart shows the middle class moved up from 20K to 40K by 2006.

So really, adjusting for inflation, they are about 17K behind the eight ball here.

Thank you for making my point.

 

[JoeB131]

By every yardstick, we are better off than we were in the 1970s. That's a statistical fact, jack. We make more money, we live longer, we work less, we work in less hazardous jobs, we have more choice in consumer goods, and so on.

That is true for every single cohort except one - white, uneducated males. A white male without a high school education makes less today than in 1970, adjusted for inflation. But other than that, everyone else is better off.

Horseshit.

the Voice of the Parasites speaks nonsense.

The Middle Class is not better off, and people with college degrees aren't doing as well as HS graduates were 40 years ago. This is a simple fact.

Middle class is hurting because of Obama policies.

No, the middle class is hurting because the wealthy have been making war on it for 40 years.

 

[thereisnospoon]

There are many reasons. Wages haven't kept pace with inflation is a pretty easy one to see though. Flat out the more the government spends past what it makes in taxes the worse the middle class is going to get.

Can you link me to whatever information you have that you thought it was growing? I mean... Not even Fox is saying that for the last decade. ( Obama hasn't been in office for 10 years just in case your partisan side shows up, how about we actually talk about the issue? )

Which goes right to the failure of the the Obama admin.

( Obama hasn't been in office for 10 years just in case your partisan side shows up, how about we actually talk about the issue? )

Just couldn't do it could you?

Obama ran his campaign on helping the middle class, cutting the deficit in half, keeping unemployment below 8% and having a transparent government. No more of the status quo. None of which has happened.
Obama is running as though he were the challenger and not the incumbent.
Obama and Biden now claim the middle class is struggling. Of course they are STILL blaming Bush.

Bush or Obama is not responsible for inflation before they were in office other than what they voted for while in other government positions.

Lets try again:

Can you link me to whatever information you have that you thought it (the middle class) was growing? I mean... Not even Fox is saying that for the last decade. ( Obama hasn't been in office for 10 years just in case your partisan side shows up, how about we actually talk about the issue? )

Or: Do you agree that your assertion of the middle class was growing was wrong?

Quite frankly I am not here to discuss the growth of the middle class. My assertion here is while Obama people discuss their reasons for supporting him. First they say the middle class is doing well because of Obama..Then in the next breath, they say the middle class is getting buried. Not because of Obama though. It's Bush's fault.
Other than those issues, nothing else really matters.
It's all a bunch of talking point spin doctor crap.
What in the hell are you talking 10 years about?

 

[thereisnospoon]

Horseshit.

the Voice of the Parasites speaks nonsense.

The Middle Class is not better off, and people with college degrees aren't doing as well as HS graduates were 40 years ago. This is a simple fact.

Middle class is hurting because of Obama policies.

No, the middle class is hurting because the wealthy have been making war on it for 40 years.

Oh would you please shut the hell up...
You make no sense. None of what you post on this issue is based in fact.
For the last time. What one has in wealth is immaterial to what another has or does not have in wealth.
You drone on and on with this "unions are my lord" bullshit.
You tread in shark infested waters. Unions are as unpopular as ever. Public worker unions have been made the personal cause of the majority of taxpayers.
If I were in such a tenuous position, I would keep quiet.

 

[JoeB131]

Oh would you please shut the hell up...
You make no sense. None of what you post on this issue is based in fact.
For the last time. What one has in wealth is immaterial to what another has or does not have in wealth.
You drone on and on with this "unions are my lord" bullshit.
You tread in shark infested waters. Unions are as unpopular as ever. Public worker unions have been made the personal cause of the majority of taxpayers.
If I were in such a tenuous position, I would keep quiet.

Actually, here's why Public Unions are so unpopular..

Once upon a time, the private sector had good wages because of unionization or the threat of unionization. The Wealthy paid a healthy share of the taxes, as they should. There were tariffs in place that protected our industries (vital to our national defense and economy) from unfair foreign competition. You had a vibrant middle class, Mom could stay home with the kids while Dad worked, people could enjoy vacations.

Then these idiots went along with the Plutocrat's oky-dokes.

"Give up your unions, and your right to collectively bargain. We’ll recognize you for your hard work and merit. We’ll use nice sounding terms like ‘right to work’ and ‘At Will employment’ to describe this."

"Dooooooy, Oky-doke!" said the middle class.

So they find themselves working harder for less money, and eventually get put out on the street at 50 because the company can always find someone younger who'll work cheaper.

“Give up your Union Medical Plans, and go with these company Medical Plans instead!”

“Dooooy, Oky-doke”

They find themselves paying more every year for plans that cover less and less. HMO stands for Horrible Medical Options. And if they got too sick, they found they were usually the first to be let go during a downsizing.

"Give up your pensions, we'll let you get in on the Wall Street fun with something called a 401K. Then you can borrow against the value of a home you already paid off! Trust us!"

"Dooooy, Oky-Doke"

Now they find themselves with a busted 401K, an underwater mortgage in foreclosure AND no hope of ever actually retiring. Meanwhile the fat cats on Wall Street and the banks got a government bailout they paid for, and paid themselves bonuses out of it.

"Hey, hey, you know, we can get more business opportunities if we sign this free trade bill with third world rat-holes that don't have the safety, environmental and work rules we have."

"Doooooy, Oky-Doke"

And they act all surprise when the manufacturing jobs go to China, and the Customer Service jobs go to India, and when their POS Chinese made computer breaks down, they can call to Pradip… er, “Bobby” about how to fix it, but he doesn't understand English.

"Hey, let's give tax cuts to rich people!"

"Doooy, Oky-Doke!"

Oh, that means we increase taxes on working people. SUCKERS!!!

And of course, if someone might actually figure out that they’ve been had, we can distract them by talking about gay marriage, abortion, guns or some other issue that gets their blood boiling for no good reason.

The ironic thing is that the GOP has engaged in this obscene transfer of wealth, but instead of being angry at the people who perpetrated it, we are angry at the people in the unions who DIDN'T FALL FOR IT.

In short, someone burns down your house, and instead of wanting to punish the arsonist, you want them to burn down your neighbor's house instead.

"DOOOOOY, Oky-doke"

 

[Toro]

Guy, you're bullshit charts don't mean anything.

20K in 1976 is worth a lot more than 40K in 2006.

I also note your dishonest charts stop in 2006... you know, right before you douchebags crashed the entire economy.

Fuck, I'd love to have my 2006 salary back. So would most people I know.

Those charts are adjusted for inflation. Inflation-adjusted income is roughly flat compared to 2006. I've got more to back it up.

See, JoeAmpad, this is what happens when you are warped with hatred. You get stuck in an ideology and engage in massive confirmation bias. And because you can't back it up, you offer anecdotes at best and bluster and anger at worst.

What I'm caught in is the actual damage you people did.

And all the lying ass charts you pull out of your ass don't change that.

Do you know why people call you a bigot? Because you make broad sweeping judgements about people, regardless whether they are true or not.

 

[JoeB131]

Do you know why people call you a bigot? Because you make broad sweeping judgements about people, regardless whether they are true or not.

Well, if someone I respected called me that, I'd be worried.

You scumwads on Wall Street screwed up the country and have yet to be held accountable.

That's the problem.

 

[Toro]

Do you know why people call you a bigot? Because you make broad sweeping judgements about people, regardless whether they are true or not.

Well, if someone I respected called me that, I'd be worried.

You scumwads on Wall Street screwed up the country and have yet to be held accountable.

That's the problem.

Wall Street, bankers, capitalists, Mormons, Jews, blacks. They're all the same, eh bigot?

 

[Shelzin]

Which goes right to the failure of the the Obama admin.

( Obama hasn't been in office for 10 years just in case your partisan side shows up, how about we actually talk about the issue? )

Just couldn't do it could you?

Obama ran his campaign on helping the middle class, cutting the deficit in half, keeping unemployment below 8% and having a transparent government. No more of the status quo. None of which has happened.
Obama is running as though he were the challenger and not the incumbent.
Obama and Biden now claim the middle class is struggling. Of course they are STILL blaming Bush.

Bush or Obama is not responsible for inflation before they were in office other than what they voted for while in other government positions.

Lets try again:

Can you link me to whatever information you have that you thought it (the middle class) was growing? I mean... Not even Fox is saying that for the last decade. ( Obama hasn't been in office for 10 years just in case your partisan side shows up, how about we actually talk about the issue? )

Or: Do you agree that your assertion of the middle class was growing was wrong?

Quite frankly I am not here to discuss the growth of the middle class. My assertion here is while Obama people discuss their reasons for supporting him. First they say the middle class is doing well because of Obama..Then in the next breath, they say the middle class is getting buried. Not because of Obama though. It's Bush's fault.
Other than those issues, nothing else really matters.

Then you should have never have addressed my posts.

What in the hell are you talking 10 years about?

What would be the point of explaining it? For that matter what was the point of addressing anything at all if your goal was just to insult or support a stance without actually addressing the problems within it?

We are a waste of each others time. Good day to you.

 

[JoeB131]

Do you know why people call you a bigot? Because you make broad sweeping judgements about people, regardless whether they are true or not.

Well, if someone I respected called me that, I'd be worried.

You scumwads on Wall Street screwed up the country and have yet to be held accountable.

That's the problem.

Wall Street, bankers, capitalists, Mormons, Jews, blacks. They're all the same, eh bigot?

Well, you beat that straw man really good...

You beat him down, because clearly you can't argue with what I actually said.

 

[Shelzin]

Guy, you're bullshit charts don't mean anything.

20K in 1976 is worth a lot more than 40K in 2006.

I also note your dishonest charts stop in 2006... you know, right before you douchebags crashed the entire economy.

Fuck, I'd love to have my 2006 salary back. So would most people I know.

yeah yeah yeah..
In 1976 compared to 2006..
20k in 1976 dollars was $57k in 2006
Lets look at this a little more objectively

by 1985. just 9 years after your arbitrary year of 1976
$20k USD in 1985 was worth $33k in 2006 dollars
You can put out the fire now..
Oh...just to help you out
$20k on 2006 is $22k today.
If you are making less than you made 6 years ago, that's kinda YOUR problem. You fucked up. Nobody else did.,
calculator
Converter of current to real US dollars | using the GDP deflator

I missed this post the first go around. I thought I would show that I did read it now... I don't think you really understand what you just typed out.

 

[Toro]

Well, if someone I respected called me that, I'd be worried.

You scumwads on Wall Street screwed up the country and have yet to be held accountable.

That's the problem.

Wall Street, bankers, capitalists, Mormons, Jews, blacks. They're all the same, eh bigot?

Well, you beat that straw man really good...

You beat him down, because clearly you can't argue with what I actually said.

Yes, when you assume everyone is the same, I shouldn't be surprised you would totally miss the point. After all, you wouldn't be a bigot if you didn't.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Oh would you please shut the hell up...
You make no sense. None of what you post on this issue is based in fact.
For the last time. What one has in wealth is immaterial to what another has or does not have in wealth.
You drone on and on with this "unions are my lord" bullshit.
You tread in shark infested waters. Unions are as unpopular as ever. Public worker unions have been made the personal cause of the majority of taxpayers.
If I were in such a tenuous position, I would keep quiet.

Actually, here's why Public Unions are so unpopular..

Once upon a time, the private sector had good wages because of unionization or the threat of unionization. The Wealthy paid a healthy share of the taxes, as they should. There were tariffs in place that protected our industries (vital to our national defense and economy) from unfair foreign competition. You had a vibrant middle class, Mom could stay home with the kids while Dad worked, people could enjoy vacations.

Then these idiots went along with the Plutocrat's oky-dokes.

"Give up your unions, and your right to collectively bargain. We’ll recognize you for your hard work and merit. We’ll use nice sounding terms like ‘right to work’ and ‘At Will employment’ to describe this."

"Dooooooy, Oky-doke!" said the middle class.

So they find themselves working harder for less money, and eventually get put out on the street at 50 because the company can always find someone younger who'll work cheaper.

“Give up your Union Medical Plans, and go with these company Medical Plans instead!”

“Dooooy, Oky-doke”

They find themselves paying more every year for plans that cover less and less. HMO stands for Horrible Medical Options. And if they got too sick, they found they were usually the first to be let go during a downsizing.

"Give up your pensions, we'll let you get in on the Wall Street fun with something called a 401K. Then you can borrow against the value of a home you already paid off! Trust us!"

"Dooooy, Oky-Doke"

Now they find themselves with a busted 401K, an underwater mortgage in foreclosure AND no hope of ever actually retiring. Meanwhile the fat cats on Wall Street and the banks got a government bailout they paid for, and paid themselves bonuses out of it.

"Hey, hey, you know, we can get more business opportunities if we sign this free trade bill with third world rat-holes that don't have the safety, environmental and work rules we have."

"Doooooy, Oky-Doke"

And they act all surprise when the manufacturing jobs go to China, and the Customer Service jobs go to India, and when their POS Chinese made computer breaks down, they can call to Pradip… er, “Bobby” about how to fix it, but he doesn't understand English.

"Hey, let's give tax cuts to rich people!"

"Doooy, Oky-Doke!"

Oh, that means we increase taxes on working people. SUCKERS!!!

And of course, if someone might actually figure out that they’ve been had, we can distract them by talking about gay marriage, abortion, guns or some other issue that gets their blood boiling for no good reason.

The ironic thing is that the GOP has engaged in this obscene transfer of wealth, but instead of being angry at the people who perpetrated it, we are angry at the people in the unions who DIDN'T FALL FOR IT.

In short, someone burns down your house, and instead of wanting to punish the arsonist, you want them to burn down your neighbor's house instead.

"DOOOOOY, Oky-doke"

In order to support your weak position it appears you have decided to make up stuff that is not true.
Tariffs cause trade wars. Nobody wins. Stupid.
50 years ago and beyond, the US was the dominate industrial power. As time progressed, other nations acquired their industrial might. As the US was an exporter, so the same with these newer industrial powers.. We could no longer hide behind the protectionist tariffs because American business had to compete as never before. It's called progress. Not all progress is painless. It is what it is. It cannot be stopped.
Anyway, public sector unions have absolutely ZERO to do with business and industry. These unions were born out of political concerns. It was thought that public employees needed the protection of labor collectives to shield them from political whims.
As for the rest of your post, I found myself looking for the punch line. You started by posting "here is why the public sector unions are so unpopular"...You went off on a revisionist history tangent and never got to the juicy hatred of public union stuff.
Umm we did not "let" anything happen.
First, there is one fact you "let's reminisce about the good old days" union people ignore. That is, at it's peak, union membership in the US made up of just about 1/3 of all US workers. Union membership began to decline in the 1970's. It accelerated in the 80's through today.
First it was businesses moving to right to work states to get away from them. Then it was workers fed up with the restrictions, nepotism and corruption of union business and union leadership. In fact unionism in this country has a seedy history. The threats, the ties with the Mafia ( which still exist today) the violence and corruption. People just had enough. Business was fedf up. The demands of unions became more and more threatening and coercive. Unions failure to recognize the mindset of the typical American worker was becoming more and more independent. Workers began to lament the collective nature of unions. Outstanding work was not rewarded. In some instances it is frowned upon.
Workers became vocal in their frustration with unions in that mediocre workers were rewarded as well as excellent performers. This is one the trappings of the labor collective.
Unions squash creativity and communication between labor and management.
Unions breed complacency and mediocrity. One of the downfalls of unions is human nature and the ability of people to realize that "hey, why should I bust my ass to do a great job when Bob the slacker gets to cruise through his day. I am no longer going to give it my best. Fuck it."...The worst part is when the business owner wants to address the por performance, the union protects these jerks. These and other reasons( far above market rate for wages) is why unions are on the decline and probably will become extinct in a short period of time.
You will struggle and hang on until your artificially low retirement age, quit at 55 and be paid to not work. Cool.
You got yours..Screw everyone else, right?
Sounds just the same as what you scream about when bitching about the wealthy.
Can't have it both ways.

 

[JoeB131]

Yes, when you assume everyone is the same, I shouldn't be surprised you would totally miss the point. After all, you wouldn't be a bigot if you didn't.

It's like any grand conspiracy, man.

Let's assume there weren't people on Wall Street who weren't in on the fraud.

They still knew about it, and they did nothing.

That makes them just as guilty.

 

[JoeB131]

In order to support your weak position it appears you have decided to make up stuff that is not true.
Tariffs cause trade wars. Nobody wins. Stupid.
50 years ago and beyond, the US was the dominate industrial power. As time progressed, other nations acquired their industrial might. As the US was an exporter, so the same with these newer industrial powers.. We could no longer hide behind the protectionist tariffs because American business had to compete as never before. It's called progress. Not all progress is painless. It is what it is. It cannot be stopped.

Horseshit. Those other industrial powers had unions, just like we did. The Germans and Japanese have unions that have a say in company management. What they Germans and Japanese don't have are greedy CEO's who really think they need to still make 8 figure salaries while their companies are failing.

The rest of your crap is the Hate the Working man shit your side spews out and wonders why the Steel Toes don't vote for you.

 

[Toro]

Yes, when you assume everyone is the same, I shouldn't be surprised you would totally miss the point. After all, you wouldn't be a bigot if you didn't.

It's like any grand conspiracy, man.

Let's assume there weren't people on Wall Street who weren't in on the fraud.

They still knew about it, and they did nothing.

That makes them just as guilty.

Bigotry is rooted in ignorance, as you repeatedly display throughout the board, including this post.

 

[Toro]

I found this old post. It's from the 2006 census. Incomes have been flat since 06, so the annualized percentage growth rates will be slightly lower. However, they are still positive.

From 1967 to 2006, income growth per income quintile was as follows

Lowest 37.6% in total, 1.1% per annum
Second 25.9%, 0.8%
Third 32.1%, 0.9%
Fourth 49.4%, 1.3%
Fifth 82.9%, 2.0%

http://www.census.gov/prod/2007pubs/p60-233.pdf

Those numbers are real, inflation-adjusted numbers.

 

[Toro]

Economic change is a messy process. New technologies open up many opportunities for those prepared to take advantage of them. At the same time, old firms and their workers are displaced and forced to start over. In 1900, for example, 40% of the U.S. work force was involved in agriculture. Today, that figure is less than 2%, and no serious observer would argue that we are worse off as a result of this transformation.

Yet many of today's most prominent politicians and pundits are making an updated version of precisely this argument. They claim that the decline in the number of manufacturing jobs has led to the replacement of good middle-class jobs by low-skill, low-pay "hamburger-flipping" service jobs.

This kind of populist dogma is bad politics and even worse economics. The assertion that the American middle-class is disappearing along with manufacturing jobs is, put simply, based on an outdated view of how the economy operates, and is empirically wrong. Nonetheless, the view that the economy has failed the middle class is widespread. The outsourcing of jobs to low-wage countries is, of course, the latest culprit. Polemicists from all sides find it irresistible to blame expanding trade for middle-class decline. But how widespread a problem is outsourcing, exactly?

It is certainly true that many jobs in manufacturing clothing, steel, metal products and automobiles have gone overseas. Plant closures not only devastate the workers who are displaced, but they have also undermined the vitality of whole communities in North Carolina, Pennsylvania, New York, Michigan, Ohio and Wisconsin, to name just a few places. But while such communities are a clear sign of the decline in some sectors of the economy, there has been strong employment growth in many other sectors. In research just published by the Progressive Policy Institute, I show that incomes and employment have grown by substantial amounts in every state (even in the so-called Rust Belt) since the passage of the North American Free Trade Agreement in 1993. ...

I find that most of the employment gains over the last 30 years have been in business-management activities (administration, sales, finance and business services) as well as in professional services such as health care and education. While the percentage of U.S. jobs derived from manual work in agriculture, mining, timber and manufacturing has declined, the share of jobs related to low-skilled retail and personal/food services has remained steady. ...

The Myth of Middle-Class Job Loss - WSJ.com

 

[thereisnospoon]

Guy, you're bullshit charts don't mean anything.

20K in 1976 is worth a lot more than 40K in 2006.

I also note your dishonest charts stop in 2006... you know, right before you douchebags crashed the entire economy.

Fuck, I'd love to have my 2006 salary back. So would most people I know.

yeah yeah yeah..
In 1976 compared to 2006..
20k in 1976 dollars was $57k in 2006
Lets look at this a little more objectively

by 1985. just 9 years after your arbitrary year of 1976
$20k USD in 1985 was worth $33k in 2006 dollars
You can put out the fire now..
Oh...just to help you out
$20k on 2006 is $22k today.
If you are making less than you made 6 years ago, that's kinda YOUR problem. You fucked up. Nobody else did.,
calculator
Converter of current to real US dollars | using the GDP deflator

I missed this post the first go around. I thought I would show that I did read it now... I don't think you really understand what you just typed out.

Just posting the facts. Pay attention.
The middle class is not dying. It's not doing well either.
The sky is not falling. It's just real cloudy and will stay that way unless Obama is relieved of his duties.