Bashing Ayn Rand

[Dugdale_Jukes]

Party In Power - Congress and Presidency - A Visual Guide To The Balance of Power In Congress, 1945-2008


anyone care to comment on the red vs blue in this chart? pretty clear which party has caused the mess we are in today.

Sure does, are you color blind?

Democrats dominated from 1945 to 1980. Here a chart for you to contemplate.

Where did our debt come from? When did massive debt become part of the American economy?

Reagan switched the federal government from what he critically called, a “tax and spend” policy, to a “borrow and spend” policy, where the government continued its heavy spending, but used borrowed money instead of tax revenue to pay the bills. The results were catastrophic. Although it had taken the United States more than 200 years to accumulate the first $1 trillion of national debt, it took only five years under Reagan to add the second one trillion dollars to the debt. By the end of the 12 years of the Reagan-Bush administrations, the national debt had quadrupled to $4 trillion!

And where was all this angst and concern about debt from conservatives when Bush and Republicans controlled the White House and both houses of Congress for almost a decade??? When Bush was starting a 3 trillion dollar war of ideology in Iraq, there was not a fucking PEEP from you right wingers, just cheers and 'bring 'em on'... And where was this less government mantra? You right wingers LOVED BIG government and government intervention into people lives... the Patriot Act, trashing habeas corpus, the Geneva Conventions and the US War Crimes Act.

And what was the concern in the Bush administration about debt and deficits? NONE...Bush's solution was to eliminate the voices of concern.

Paul O'Neill was fired from his job as George Bush's Treasury Secretary for disagreeing too many times with the president's policy on tax cuts.

[snip]

"Cheney... said to O'Neill: 'You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter. We won the mid-term elections, this is our due.' … O'Neill was speechless."

"It was not just about not wanting the tax cut. It was about how to use the nation's resources to improve the condition of our society," says O'Neill. "And I thought the weight of working on Social Security and fundamental tax reform was a lot more important than a tax reduction."

These people are scum so pure the stink has a bizarre appeal to white trash Murka. Debt and deficits aren't a problem supporting mindless greed, but try to build a road or a public hospital and every woman hating queer baiting remf chikenhawk with a lowload AR15 is hefting their fat asses onto the ramparts because someone not like them could get a grain of wheat.

 

[LoneLaugher]

that 25% is probably part-time workers. Do you think part time workers should get paid vacations?

Now, why are there so many part time workers??????? Obamacare. You fools wanted it, now deal with it.

You're assuming facts not in evidence.

what planet are you on? do you ever listen to the news? hundreds of companies are reducing hours below 30/week to escape obamacare. its either that or close their doors, which would you do?

Hundreds? That sounds very serious. Can you list them please?

 

[Polk]

communism and libertarian actually have a lot in common.

(1) both turn in to societies of cadre and elites supported by violence against the workers

(2) both ignore the realities of human nature

It's really just the second thing on your list. The first thing is just an outgrowth of the second.

 

[JoeB131]

Ayn Rand accurately predicted where this country was going in Atlas Shrugged. She accurately showed how liberal governments destroy countries and economies.

Like her or hate her------she was right.

see my sig.

Ayn Rand spent the last years of her life living off social security and medicare when her cancer ate up her meager earnings as an author.

If that ain't fucking irony, I don't know what is.

 

[Mac1958]

hundreds of companies are reducing hours below 30/week to escape obamacare. its either that or close their doors, which would you do?

It's already not pretty. I have three business clients who are preparing to do this and a couple others who have asked about it. It's ridiculous enough that businesses should be burdened with health care, but this whole thing is just a bad joke.

The most telling thing is the fact that unions are now admitting it too: [url=http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57586030/now-some-unions-upset-over-obamacare/]Now, some unions upset over Obamacare - CBS News[/URL]

And it's more than hundreds. Every qualifying business has had to look at this, and most of had to make decisions. Effin' madness.

.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The ACA is not the point of the thread, but we already see it as a losing issue for the GOP in 2014 and beyond.

 

[editec]

Bashing Ayn Rand

Yeah and she was so ugly she had to sneak up on a glass of water, too.

(just trying to get this thread back on topic)

 

[Sallow]

that 25% is probably part-time workers. Do you think part time workers should get paid vacations?

Now, why are there so many part time workers??????? Obamacare. You fools wanted it, now deal with it.

You're assuming facts not in evidence.

what planet are you on? do you ever listen to the news? hundreds of companies are reducing hours below 30/week to escape obamacare. its either that or close their doors, which would you do?

Bullshit.

 

[Sallow]

It is all so simple.

What nation or culture can boast of having the most individualistic society?

How about least?

Is there a happy place somewhere in the middle?

Somalia. Can't get more individualistic than anarchy.

I wonder why I never got an answer to these questions from the person I directed them to?

Because a Randian "Society" isn't possible.

 

[Redfish]

You're assuming facts not in evidence.

what planet are you on? do you ever listen to the news? hundreds of companies are reducing hours below 30/week to escape obamacare. its either that or close their doors, which would you do?

Bullshit.

Another company reducing hours due to ObamaCare mandates - The Brenner Brief | The Brenner Brief

Papa John?s joins list of companies reducing workers? hours - Atlanta Political Buzz | Examiner.com


sorry, swallow. its not bullshit. obamacare is hurting working people, unions want out of it, congress wants to be exempt. It is a total disaster. worst piece of legislation by the worst president in american history.

 

[FA_Q2]

What I said was in regard to the premise of the thread about Ayn Rand in her philosophy as expressed in her fictional books. The emphasis being fiction.

And I would take issue with your blanket statement of why most rich people are rich. Plenty of rich people are rich because of who they know, or who their parents or grandparents were, or who they've been able to exploit in some way. Hell, your earlier example of entertainers is a case in point. Col Tom Parker enriched himself because he represented Elvis. And The Beatles Publishing rights made Dick Lester incredibly without any special talent except being in the right place at the right time when the talented members of the band were all young and naive to the ways of business.

As for Ayn herself, I understand she ultimately went on gov't assistance in her later years. Apparently, she wasn't so married to her philosophy as to actually put it into practice in her own life. You know, as an example to others that her principles were more than just an intellectual dalliance?

OK, back to square one. you said that rich people got rich by exploiting labor. I proved that statement incorrect.

If you are now retracting that erroneous statement, then we are done.

Everyone understands how capitalism works. Profit is dependent on charging more than the cost of production. That includes labor cost. In other words, you have to pay someone less than the value of their work if you want to make a profit. This is not shocking. It's just the way capitalism works.

But let's get back to the entertainment industry for a minute. Record companies ROUTINELY exploited their talent, paying their artists pennies on the dollar per record (and now per CD) sold. You would think that the artists could have held out for better deals, but they were relatively powerless within the business relationship unless or until they were established artists (and older and wiser, as well).

What a complete mischaracterization of reality. You are placing value in one person’s labor while trashing another’s and falsely calling that ‘exploitation.’ Your example missies the real mark by miles.

First, those artists are not being duped into those contracts because they are young and dumb. They are getting into them because if they don’t they are never going to make it big. IOW, the record company has something to offer. That offer includes the massive marketing capabilities that the people in that company have worked to build. That is no small thing we are talking about and you blow that off as if they should give the decades of work that it took building that network and capability up as if it was worth nothing. As though they should give their talents away for free or for nothing simply because you value the artist’s work more than the people behind the scenes. The same goes for the agents you are mentioning. Those people did not make the money that they did by ‘exploiting’ anyone and they certainly did not make it without their own talents. Because you did not hear those talents over the radio you might blow it off but that does not diminish the role that those people play.

What actually happened was that the interested parties entered into a relationship[ for mutual benefits. The artist uses the companies considerable marketing and fabrication abilities and trades rights to the music they make. Both parties were enriched. The same holds true for any work by the way. Do you actually think that the auto worker on the assembly line has labor that is worth anything without the company that they work for? Of course not. Your labor, alone, is absolutely meaningless. In turn, a company with all the pieces of a million cars is meaningless without the workers to put the shit together. That is not exploitation – it is 2 parties getting together and mutually benefiting. The worker trades time for compensation and the company gets the produced product to sell. That product was never the employees to begin with and his labor is not the only part in its creation. There needs to be raw materials, shipping, marketing, sales etc. etc.

 

[Redfish]

OK, back to square one. you said that rich people got rich by exploiting labor. I proved that statement incorrect.

If you are now retracting that erroneous statement, then we are done.

Everyone understands how capitalism works. Profit is dependent on charging more than the cost of production. That includes labor cost. In other words, you have to pay someone less than the value of their work if you want to make a profit. This is not shocking. It's just the way capitalism works.

But let's get back to the entertainment industry for a minute. Record companies ROUTINELY exploited their talent, paying their artists pennies on the dollar per record (and now per CD) sold. You would think that the artists could have held out for better deals, but they were relatively powerless within the business relationship unless or until they were established artists (and older and wiser, as well).

What a complete mischaracterization of reality. You are placing value in one person’s labor while trashing another’s and falsely calling that ‘exploitation.’ Your example missies the real mark by miles.

First, those artists are not being duped into those contracts because they are young and dumb. They are getting into them because if they don’t they are never going to make it big. IOW, the record company has something to offer. That offer includes the massive marketing capabilities that the people in that company have worked to build. That is no small thing we are talking about and you blow that off as if they should give the decades of work that it took building that network and capability up as if it was worth nothing. As though they should give their talents away for free or for nothing simply because you value the artist’s work more than the people behind the scenes. The same goes for the agents you are mentioning. Those people did not make the money that they did by ‘exploiting’ anyone and they certainly did not make it without their own talents. Because you did not hear those talents over the radio you might blow it off but that does not diminish the role that those people play.

What actually happened was that the interested parties entered into a relationship[ for mutual benefits. The artist uses the companies considerable marketing and fabrication abilities and trades rights to the music they make. Both parties were enriched. The same holds true for any work by the way. Do you actually think that the auto worker on the assembly line has labor that is worth anything without the company that they work for? Of course not. Your labor, alone, is absolutely meaningless. In turn, a company with all the pieces of a million cars is meaningless without the workers to put the shit together. That is not exploitation – it is 2 parties getting together and mutually benefiting. The worker trades time for compensation and the company gets the produced product to sell. That product was never the employees to begin with and his labor is not the only part in its creation. There needs to be raw materials, shipping, marketing, sales etc. etc.

good post, but socialists will never understand how the real world works.

 

[Redfish]

Somalia. Can't get more individualistic than anarchy.

I wonder why I never got an answer to these questions from the person I directed them to?

Because a Randian "Society" isn't possible.

The USA was basically a "randian society" until about 1930. Yes, there were problems with that, labor laws were needed--now we have them. But the fact remains that that period of time and that freedom was what made this nation the greatest in the history of the world-----small government, individual freedom, free markets, individual responsibility and accountability, low taxes, innovation, experimentation. FREEDOM. It works!

 

[JakeStarkey]

Look up "socialism", Redfish, then tell us how ACA is socialist.

 

[Sallow]

what planet are you on? do you ever listen to the news? hundreds of companies are reducing hours below 30/week to escape obamacare. its either that or close their doors, which would you do?

Bullshit.

Another company reducing hours due to ObamaCare mandates - The Brenner Brief | The Brenner Brief

Papa John?s joins list of companies reducing workers? hours - Atlanta Political Buzz | Examiner.com


sorry, swallow. its not bullshit. obamacare is hurting working people, unions want out of it, congress wants to be exempt. It is a total disaster. worst piece of legislation by the worst president in american history.

No it is bullshit you fucking faggot.

You shouldn't ask a 52 year old man for a fucking swallow either you homosexual asshole.

Because your right wing blogs and the asshole CEO of Poppa John's, who's company makes the shittiest pizza in creation say something stupid..doesn't mean the rest of the world is following suit.

So fuck you fag.

 

[Sallow]

I wonder why I never got an answer to these questions from the person I directed them to?

Because a Randian "Society" isn't possible.

The USA was basically a "randian society" until about 1930. Yes, there were problems with that, labor laws were needed--now we have them. But the fact remains that that period of time and that freedom was what made this nation the greatest in the history of the world-----small government, individual freedom, free markets, individual responsibility and accountability, low taxes, innovation, experimentation. FREEDOM. It works!

It was never a Randian society, asshole.

The Constitution is exactly the type of Document that Rand rails against.

 

[Redfish]

Look up "socialism", Redfish, then tell us how ACA is socialist.

current definitions and classic definitions do not agree. Call it what you like---socialism, progressivism, marxism, communism, maoism. They all rely on huge intrusive government that controls every aspect of human life. Real freedom does not exist.

ACA is just one step towards one-payer government controlled medicine. If you like the idea of some marginally competent GS 9 making your medical decisions for you, fine. I do not like that concept at all.

 

[Redfish]

Because a Randian "Society" isn't possible.

The USA was basically a "randian society" until about 1930. Yes, there were problems with that, labor laws were needed--now we have them. But the fact remains that that period of time and that freedom was what made this nation the greatest in the history of the world-----small government, individual freedom, free markets, individual responsibility and accountability, low taxes, innovation, experimentation. FREEDOM. It works!

It was never a Randian society, asshole.

The Constitution is exactly the type of Document that Rand rails against.

Discussing the message of Atlas Shrugged with you is like talking about plato with my dog.

What she wrote about in Atlas is happening today. What do you think the "equalization of opportuinity" act in the book was about?

have you read Atlas? or are you just copying what some other fool has said?

 

[JakeStarkey]

"some marginally competent GS 9 concerned about the consumer first" or "some marginally competent bean counter concerned about the business first".

Classic definitions always trump made up current wannabee definitions.

ACA may be government intrusion or interference or reform, but it is not socialism.

Oh, Rand and her philosophy simply are not relevant to our society.

 

[Redfish]

Bullshit.

Another company reducing hours due to ObamaCare mandates - The Brenner Brief | The Brenner Brief

Papa John?s joins list of companies reducing workers? hours - Atlanta Political Buzz | Examiner.com


sorry, swallow. its not bullshit. obamacare is hurting working people, unions want out of it, congress wants to be exempt. It is a total disaster. worst piece of legislation by the worst president in american history.

No it is bullshit you fucking faggot.

You shouldn't ask a 52 year old man for a fucking swallow either you homosexual asshole.

Because your right wing blogs and the asshole CEO of Poppa John's, who's company makes the shittiest pizza in creation say something stupid..doesn't mean the rest of the world is following suit.

So fuck you fag.

your juvenile attempts at insults just verify that you cannot defend your positions against facts.

I could reply in kind and hurl more effective insults but you are not worth the effort.