Ben Stein Stumps Richard Dawkins.

[PostmodernProph]

You should not presume that tales of a virgin birth within mythology that pre-dates Christianity lends credence to biblical stories of virgins giving birth.

Christianity is a syncretic faith and has just co-opted some of the tales and fables of earlier religions.

"Stories" of virgin birth vs. actual virgin birth are two different things. The Bible states that Mary was a virgin who gave birth to Jesus Christ. I realize that you don't believe what the Bible says but what you believe doesn't matter. From my perspective, only what I believe matters.

There are no ACTUAL human virgin births!

there is no ACTUAL atheist reasoning....

 

[DriftingSand]

There are no ACTUAL human virgin births!

Except for Mary's.

Including Mary!

You must be thinking of a different Mary. I'm talking about the Virgin Mary.

 

[DriftingSand]

"Stories" of virgin birth vs. actual virgin birth are two different things. The Bible states that Mary was a virgin who gave birth to Jesus Christ. I realize that you don't believe what the Bible says but what you believe doesn't matter. From my perspective, only what I believe matters.

There are no ACTUAL human virgin births!

there is no ACTUAL atheist reasoning....

Exactly. From an Atheist's perspective there can be no reason for existence because our existence was not born from reason -- it was born from chance. We're one, huge mistake. There cannot be a plan because there is no Planner. There can be no design because there is no Designer. There cannot be a creation because there is no Creator. There cannot be a purpose because there Source from whence to draw a purpose.

Lack of reason does not give birth to reason.

One beautiful thing about Christianity is that it provides a reason and a purpose for man's existence.

 

[edthecynic]

so a goddess of fertility.....married.....who impregnates herself with her husband's severed and mummified penis.....and you say the myth says she's a virgin......I put it to you that myth doesn't go anywhere near virgin birth.....the only place you'll find that claim is an atheist "I'm going to prove Christianity is a copycat religion" website.....

and, it has nothing at all to do with the actual myth of Isis......

Osiris' penis was never recovered to impregnate Isis, it was eaten by a fish.

You want to rewrite mythology as well as the bible.

ISIS IS A VIRGIN MOTHER!!! | Freethought Nation

As it turns out, we would be completely wrong and utterly unscholarly to assert that Isis was not a virgin, as so many have been doing around the internet and elsewhere.The fact of Isis’s perpetual virginity is demonstrated in the ZG Sourcebook, where the information is carefully cited. It is repeated here for the reader’s ease of reference.
PROOF THAT ISIS WAS A VIRGIN MOTHER, FROM PRIMARY SOURCES AND THE WORKS OF HIGHLY CREDENTIALED AUTHORITIES
The virginity of Horus’s mother, Isis, has been disputed, because in one myth she is portrayed as impregnating herself with Osiris’s severed phallus. In depictions of Isis’s impregnation, the goddess conceives Horus “while she fluttered in the form of a hawk over the corpse of her dead husband.” …in an image from the tomb of Ramesses VI, Horus is born out of Osiris’s corpse without Isis even being in the picture. In another tradition, Horus is conceived when the water of the Nile—identified as Osiris—overflows the river’s banks, which are equated with Isis. The “phallus” in this latter case is the “sharp star Sothis” or Sirius, the rising of which signaled the Nile flood. Hence, in discussing these myths we are not dealing with “real people” who have body parts.

‘Osiris…begetting a son by Isis, who hovers over him in the form of a hawk.’
(Budge, On the Future Life: Egyptian Religion, 80)​

As is often the case with mythical figures, despite the way she is impregnated, Isis remained the “Great Virgin,” as she is called in a number of pre-Christian Egyptian writings. As stated by Egyptologist Dr. Reginald E. Witt, In Isis in the Ancient World:
The Egyptian goddess who was equally “the Great Virgin” (hwnt) and “Mother of the God” was the object of the very same praise bestowed upon her successor [Mary, Virgin Mother of Jesus].
One of the inscriptions that calls Isis the “Great Virgin” appears in the temple of Seti I at Abydos dating to the 13th century BCE. As stated by professor of Old Testament and Catholic Theology at the University of Bonn Dr. G. Johannes Botterweck, in the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament:
..The Pyramid Texts speak of “the great virgin” (hwn.t wr.t) three times (682c, 728a, 2002a… she is anonymous, appears as the protectress of the king, and is explicitly called his mother once (809c). It is interesting that Isis is addresseed as hwn.t in a sarcophagus oracle that deals with her mysterious pregnancy. In a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I, Isis herself declares: “I am the great virgin.”…
It should be noted that the king or pharaoh, whose mother is called “the great virgin,” is also the living Horus; hence, his great virgin mother would be Isis.

Also, in the temple of Neith and Isis at Sais was an ancient inscription that depicted the virgin birth of the sun:
The present and the future and the past, I am. My undergarment no one has uncovered. The fruit I brought forth, the sun came into being.
As Dr. Botterweck also writes:
In the Late Period [712-332 BCE] in particular, goddesses are frequently called “(beautiful) virgins,” especially Hathor, Isis, and Nephthys.


During the Greco-Roman period, Isis was equated with the constellation of Virgo, the Virgin, as I relate in Christ in Egypt:
…The identification of Isis with the Virgin…is made in an ancient Greek text called The Katasterismoi, or Catasterismi, allegedly written by the astronomer Eratosthenes (276-194 BCE), who was for some 50 years the head librarian of the massive Library of Alexandria. Although the original of this text has been lost, an “epitome” credited to Eratosthenes in ancient times has been attributed by modern scholars to an anonymous “Pseudo-Eratosthenes” of the 1st to 2nd centuries AD/CE. In this book, the title of which translates as “Placing Among the Stars,” appear discussions of the signs of the zodiac. IN his essay on the zodiacal sign of Virgo (ch. 9), under the heading of “Parthenos,” the author includes the goddess Isis, among others, such as Demeter, Atagartis and Tyche, as identified with and as the constellation of the Virgin. In Star Myths of the Greeks and Romans, Dr. Theony Condos…translates the pertinent passage from the chapter “Virgo” by Pseud-Eratosthenes thus:
Hesiod in the Theogony says this figure is Dike, the daughter of Zeus [Dios] and Themis… Some say it is Demeter because of the sheaf of grain she holds, others say it is Isis, others Atagartis, others Tyche…
(For more information, including the original Greek, where the father-god Zeus is termed Dios, meaning the “Divine One” or “God,” see Christ in Egypt, 156ff.)
Also, there exists at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York an ancient Carnelian ring stone from the Imperial period (1st-2nd cents. AD/CE) that is an “adaptation” of a Greek artifact from the fourth century BCE. The ring stone possesses an image of the Greco-Egyptian hybrid god Serapis-Hades and Isis standing before him holding an “ear of wheat and the sistrum.” The Greek inscription reads:

The phrase is translated as “The Lady Isis, Immaculate,” the latter word from the Greek verb agneuw, meaning “to be pure or chaste.”

so in other words, they know she isn't a virgin, but they're going to pretend she is.....why?.....well, so they can criticize Christianity, of course!.....

because in one myth she is portrayed as impregnating herself with Osiris’s severed phallus

In short, they don't care whether she was a virgin or not, so long as they can claim Mary wasn't the first.....lol.....

Hundreds of versions of the myth say the phallus was eaten by fish, but one has her impregnated by his remade out of gold phallus, which never touches her, she HOVERS over it becoming pregnant, and Christians spin that into not being a virgin.

The Myth goes like this:

Osiris was cut into 14 seperate parts by Typhon and scaterd across egypt. Isis searched for these parts finding them one by one and burying them inside a magical mummy made of wax. ALL were acounted for but one part, the phallus which isis reproduced in gold. Typhon cast the real phallus into the ocean in which three fish devored it. These three fish represent ignorance, fear and superstition.

 

[edthecynic]

Except for Mary's.

Including Mary!

You must be thinking of a different Mary. I'm talking about the Virgin Mary.

There was no virgin Mary giving birth. She was knocked up before she was even married.

 

[DriftingSand]

Including Mary!

You must be thinking of a different Mary. I'm talking about the Virgin Mary.

There was no virgin Mary giving birth. She was knocked up before she was even married.

She was found with child by the miraculous, supernatural conception (the Catholics call the Immaculate Conception). No man had known her when she was found with child. Her husband, Joseph, was about to divorce her until a messenger told him the miraculous news. Therefore, she was technically a virgin. I realize that you don't want to believe that but I do and that's all that matters to me, personally.

 

[edthecynic]

You must be thinking of a different Mary. I'm talking about the Virgin Mary.

There was no virgin Mary giving birth. She was knocked up before she was even married.

She was found with child by the miraculous, supernatural conception (the Catholics call the Immaculate Conception). No man had known her when she was found with child. Her husband, Joseph, was about to divorce her until a messenger told him the miraculous news. Therefore, she was technically a virgin. I realize that you don't want to believe that but I do and that's all that matters to me, personally.

Only the truly gullible would believe a story like that! If she had never been penetrated by a man then Joseph would have been able to SEE for himself and would not need to be told anything. The fact that an "messenger" had to tell him what he couldn't see for himself proves Mary was penetrated before she hooked up with Joe.

 

[Hollie]

so a goddess of fertility.....married.....who impregnates herself with her husband's severed and mummified penis.....and you say the myth says she's a virgin......I put it to you that myth doesn't go anywhere near virgin birth.....the only place you'll find that claim is an atheist "I'm going to prove Christianity is a copycat religion" website.....

and, it has nothing at all to do with the actual myth of Isis......

Osiris' penis was never recovered to impregnate Isis, it was eaten by a fish.

You want to rewrite mythology as well as the bible.

ISIS IS A VIRGIN MOTHER!!! | Freethought Nation

As it turns out, we would be completely wrong and utterly unscholarly to assert that Isis was not a virgin, as so many have been doing around the internet and elsewhere.The fact of Isis’s perpetual virginity is demonstrated in the ZG Sourcebook, where the information is carefully cited. It is repeated here for the reader’s ease of reference.
PROOF THAT ISIS WAS A VIRGIN MOTHER, FROM PRIMARY SOURCES AND THE WORKS OF HIGHLY CREDENTIALED AUTHORITIES
The virginity of Horus’s mother, Isis, has been disputed, because in one myth she is portrayed as impregnating herself with Osiris’s severed phallus. In depictions of Isis’s impregnation, the goddess conceives Horus “while she fluttered in the form of a hawk over the corpse of her dead husband.” …in an image from the tomb of Ramesses VI, Horus is born out of Osiris’s corpse without Isis even being in the picture. In another tradition, Horus is conceived when the water of the Nile—identified as Osiris—overflows the river’s banks, which are equated with Isis. The “phallus” in this latter case is the “sharp star Sothis” or Sirius, the rising of which signaled the Nile flood. Hence, in discussing these myths we are not dealing with “real people” who have body parts.

‘Osiris…begetting a son by Isis, who hovers over him in the form of a hawk.’
(Budge, On the Future Life: Egyptian Religion, 80)​

As is often the case with mythical figures, despite the way she is impregnated, Isis remained the “Great Virgin,” as she is called in a number of pre-Christian Egyptian writings. As stated by Egyptologist Dr. Reginald E. Witt, In Isis in the Ancient World:
The Egyptian goddess who was equally “the Great Virgin” (hwnt) and “Mother of the God” was the object of the very same praise bestowed upon her successor [Mary, Virgin Mother of Jesus].
One of the inscriptions that calls Isis the “Great Virgin” appears in the temple of Seti I at Abydos dating to the 13th century BCE. As stated by professor of Old Testament and Catholic Theology at the University of Bonn Dr. G. Johannes Botterweck, in the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament:
..The Pyramid Texts speak of “the great virgin” (hwn.t wr.t) three times (682c, 728a, 2002a…); she is anonymous, appears as the protectress of the king, and is explicitly called his mother once (809c). It is interesting that Isis is addresseed as hwn.t in a sarcophagus oracle that deals with her mysterious pregnancy. In a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I, Isis herself declares: “I am the great virgin.”…
It should be noted that the king or pharaoh, whose mother is called “the great virgin,” is also the living Horus; hence, his great virgin mother would be Isis.

Also, in the temple of Neith and Isis at Sais was an ancient inscription that depicted the virgin birth of the sun:
The present and the future and the past, I am. My undergarment no one has uncovered. The fruit I brought forth, the sun came into being.
As Dr. Botterweck also writes:
In the Late Period [712-332 BCE] in particular, goddesses are frequently called “(beautiful) virgins,” especially Hathor, Isis, and Nephthys.


During the Greco-Roman period, Isis was equated with the constellation of Virgo, the Virgin, as I relate in Christ in Egypt:
…The identification of Isis with the Virgin…is made in an ancient Greek text called The Katasterismoi, or Catasterismi, allegedly written by the astronomer Eratosthenes (276-194 BCE), who was for some 50 years the head librarian of the massive Library of Alexandria. Although the original of this text has been lost, an “epitome” credited to Eratosthenes in ancient times has been attributed by modern scholars to an anonymous “Pseudo-Eratosthenes” of the 1st to 2nd centuries AD/CE. In this book, the title of which translates as “Placing Among the Stars,” appear discussions of the signs of the zodiac. IN his essay on the zodiacal sign of Virgo (ch. 9), under the heading of “Parthenos,” the author includes the goddess Isis, among others, such as Demeter, Atagartis and Tyche, as identified with and as the constellation of the Virgin. In Star Myths of the Greeks and Romans, Dr. Theony Condos…translates the pertinent passage from the chapter “Virgo” by Pseud-Eratosthenes thus:
Hesiod in the Theogony says this figure is Dike, the daughter of Zeus [Dios] and Themis… Some say it is Demeter because of the sheaf of grain she holds, others say it is Isis, others Atagartis, others Tyche…
(For more information, including the original Greek, where the father-god Zeus is termed Dios, meaning the “Divine One” or “God,” see Christ in Egypt, 156ff.)
Also, there exists at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York an ancient Carnelian ring stone from the Imperial period (1st-2nd cents. AD/CE) that is an “adaptation” of a Greek artifact from the fourth century BCE. The ring stone possesses an image of the Greco-Egyptian hybrid god Serapis-Hades and Isis standing before him holding an “ear of wheat and the sistrum.” The Greek inscription reads:

The phrase is translated as “The Lady Isis, Immaculate,” the latter word from the Greek verb agneuw, meaning “to be pure or chaste.”

I knew if I waited long enough somebody would pull out their favorite, AtheistRUs website.....

so, what was the problem with Osiris.....she was apparently gorgeous, goddess of fertility and all....and yet despite all that his wife was a virgin......


and yet, from your link...


so I sense some inner conflict here......how is it Isis could be considered a virgin....ah, here it is....


and the ultimate solution....

The fact of Isis’s perpetual virginity is demonstrated in the ZG Sourcebook, where the information is carefully cited. It is repeated here for the reader’s ease of reference.

so in other words, they know she isn't a virgin, but they're going to pretend she is.....why?.....well, so they can criticize Christianity, of course!.....

Here I provide the ancient testimony and primary sources for the contention that Isis, the mother of the Egyptian god Horus, was considered and deemed a virgin long before Jesus was a twinkle in his Father’s eye.

in short, they don't care whether she was a virgin or not, so long as they can claim Mary wasn't the first.....lol.....

You see conspiracies when none exist. Further, comparing ancient tales of Isis and virgin births to more recent tales of Mary and spontaneous impregnation does nothing to make biblical tales and myths any more or less tales and myth.

Comparing one myth to another in the hope of buttressing your myth suggests it's time to reassess your myth.

 

[DriftingSand]

There was no virgin Mary giving birth. She was knocked up before she was even married.

She was found with child by the miraculous, supernatural conception (the Catholics call the Immaculate Conception). No man had known her when she was found with child. Her husband, Joseph, was about to divorce her until a messenger told him the miraculous news. Therefore, she was technically a virgin. I realize that you don't want to believe that but I do and that's all that matters to me, personally.

Only the truly gullible would believe a story like that! If she had never been penetrated by a man then Joseph would have been able to SEE for himself and would not need to be told anything. The fact that an "messenger" had to tell him what he couldn't see for himself proves Mary was penetrated before she hooked up with Joe.

No ... only the truly faithful would believe it. The fact that I don't believe most of the stuff you post proves that I'm not gullible.

Now a gullible person would believe that once upon a time there was absolutely nothing then **Bang - Bam - KaPowee** there was this huge explosion that created an entire Universe complete with suns and moons and planets. Nothing then - **poof** - something.

By the way ... what existed before the "big bang?" Were there gases just floating around? If so, where did the gases come from? No fair just makin' stuff up either. If you don't know then simply say you don't know. But remember, if you don't know then you can't be certain that Intelligence didn't pre-exist the gases and all matter.

 

[Hollie]

"Stories" of virgin birth vs. actual virgin birth are two different things. The Bible states that Mary was a virgin who gave birth to Jesus Christ. I realize that you don't believe what the Bible says but what you believe doesn't matter. From my perspective, only what I believe matters.

There are no ACTUAL human virgin births!

there is no ACTUAL atheist reasoning....

Yeah - atheists defer to religious zealots and their tales of talking snakes for lessons in reasoning.

 

[Hollie]

She was found with child by the miraculous, supernatural conception (the Catholics call the Immaculate Conception). No man had known her when she was found with child. Her husband, Joseph, was about to divorce her until a messenger told him the miraculous news. Therefore, she was technically a virgin. I realize that you don't want to believe that but I do and that's all that matters to me, personally.

Only the truly gullible would believe a story like that! If she had never been penetrated by a man then Joseph would have been able to SEE for himself and would not need to be told anything. The fact that an "messenger" had to tell him what he couldn't see for himself proves Mary was penetrated before she hooked up with Joe.

No ... only the truly faithful would believe it. The fact that I don't believe most of the stuff you post proves that I'm not gullible.

Now a gullible person would believe that once upon a time there was absolutely nothing then **Bang - Bam - KaPowee** there was this huge explosion that created an entire Universe complete with suns and moons and planets. Nothing then - **poof** - something.

By the way ... what existed before the "big bang?" Were there gases just floating around? If so, where did the gases come from? No fair just makin' stuff up either. If you don't know then simply say you don't know. But remember, if you don't know then you can't be certain that Intelligence didn't pre-exist the gases and all matter.

Your poofing and banging (with an admixture of magic and a hierarchy of designer gods), defines the tales and fables of super-magical creation of you gods.

 

[DriftingSand]

You see conspiracies when none exist. Further, comparing ancient tales of Isis and virgin births to more recent tales of Mary and spontaneous impregnation does nothing to make biblical tales and myths any more or less tales and myth.

Comparing one myth to another in the hope of buttressing your myth suggests it's time to reassess your myth.

You're assuming the biblical account is a myth but that's simply your personal opinion. That lacks basis.

The miracle of a virgin birth is no less miraculous than a "spontaneous" explosion that creates an seemingly endless universe (complete with suns, moons, comets, planets, etc.) or "spontaneous" appearance of a living organism who's mother and father were a rock and some pond goo. Does anyone believe in the "myth" of abiogenesis?

 

[Hollie]

You see conspiracies when none exist. Further, comparing ancient tales of Isis and virgin births to more recent tales of Mary and spontaneous impregnation does nothing to make biblical tales and myths any more or less tales and myth.

Comparing one myth to another in the hope of buttressing your myth suggests it's time to reassess your myth.

You're assuming the biblical account is a myth but that's simply your personal opinion. That lacks basis.

The miracle of a virgin birth is no less miraculous than a "spontaneous" explosion that creates an seemingly endless universe (complete with suns, moons, comets, planets, etc.) or "spontaneous" appearance of a living organism who's mother and father were a rock and some pond goo. Does anyone believe in the "myth" of abiogenesis?

I don't have to assume myth for biblical accounts of supernatural / magical accounts. The myths announce themselves.

 

[DriftingSand]

Only the truly gullible would believe a story like that! If she had never been penetrated by a man then Joseph would have been able to SEE for himself and would not need to be told anything. The fact that an "messenger" had to tell him what he couldn't see for himself proves Mary was penetrated before she hooked up with Joe.

No ... only the truly faithful would believe it. The fact that I don't believe most of the stuff you post proves that I'm not gullible.

Now a gullible person would believe that once upon a time there was absolutely nothing then **Bang - Bam - KaPowee** there was this huge explosion that created an entire Universe complete with suns and moons and planets. Nothing then - **poof** - something.

By the way ... what existed before the "big bang?" Were there gases just floating around? If so, where did the gases come from? No fair just makin' stuff up either. If you don't know then simply say you don't know. But remember, if you don't know then you can't be certain that Intelligence didn't pre-exist the gases and all matter.

Your poofing and banging (with an admixture of magic and a hierarchy of designer gods), defines the tales and fables of super-magical creation of you gods.

So you can't answer the questions. Just say so and I'll understand.

 

[DriftingSand]

You see conspiracies when none exist. Further, comparing ancient tales of Isis and virgin births to more recent tales of Mary and spontaneous impregnation does nothing to make biblical tales and myths any more or less tales and myth.

Comparing one myth to another in the hope of buttressing your myth suggests it's time to reassess your myth.

You're assuming the biblical account is a myth but that's simply your personal opinion. That lacks basis.

The miracle of a virgin birth is no less miraculous than a "spontaneous" explosion that creates an seemingly endless universe (complete with suns, moons, comets, planets, etc.) or "spontaneous" appearance of a living organism who's mother and father were a rock and some pond goo. Does anyone believe in the "myth" of abiogenesis?

I don't have to assume myth for biblical accounts of supernatural / magical accounts. The myths announce themselves.

So you can't answer the questions. Just say so and I'll understand.

 

[DriftingSand]

Atheists would have us believe that a Corvette created its designer and builder rather than a designer and builder creating the Corvette.

 

[Hollie]

You're assuming the biblical account is a myth but that's simply your personal opinion. That lacks basis.

The miracle of a virgin birth is no less miraculous than a "spontaneous" explosion that creates an seemingly endless universe (complete with suns, moons, comets, planets, etc.) or "spontaneous" appearance of a living organism who's mother and father were a rock and some pond goo. Does anyone believe in the "myth" of abiogenesis?

I don't have to assume myth for biblical accounts of supernatural / magical accounts. The myths announce themselves.

So you can't answer the questions. Just say so and I'll understand.

I answered the question.

You never addressed the talking snake. Further, virgins don't spontaneously impregnate, except in realms of myth and legend.

That conflicts with the beliefs of extremists, but why should your extremist beliefs not be held to a standard of rationality and reason?

 

[PostmodernProph]

Hundreds of versions of the myth say the phallus was eaten by fish, but one has her impregnated by his remade out of gold phallus, which never touches her, she HOVERS over it becoming pregnant, and Christians spin that into not being a virgin.

well, to be fair, there's also the years she was married before her husband died......odd fertility goddess to remain a virgin through that......be that as it may, you are completely ignoring the fact that even your article acknowledges she was a virgin because of a fiction of perpetual virginity.........

 

[Hollie]

Atheists would have us believe that a Corvette created its designer and builder rather than a designer and builder creating the Corvette.

Typical nonsense you scoured from extremist websites. Biological organisms evolve. Mechanical components do not.

Further, how would you account for such incompetent "design" on the part of your magical gods?

 

[PostmodernProph]

There are no ACTUAL human virgin births!

there is no ACTUAL atheist reasoning....

Yeah - atheists defer to religious zealots and their tales of talking snakes for lessons in reasoning.

it is wise of you to defer to your superiors.....