Best Peace Plan I have heard - From a Palestinian American

[GHook93]

b. Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194.

This point will be a problem for Israel as it insures that the Palestinians need only move back en masse to Israel to take over the voting process. The history of Islam is a history of ignoring the rights of other religions.
If Israel were to let all the "Palestinians" back in they would immediately turn into second class citizens or outright slaves.
What reasonable person would opt for such?
The Palestinians who left in the 40's can stay where they are now.
Nothing else will be acceptable to the Israeli population.

Correct! No country in the world would allow millions upon millions of enemies of the state into their country. Especially a country as small as Israel.

Only the true antisemites demand this!

 

[Shogun]

b. Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194.

This point will be a problem for Israel as it insures that the Palestinians need only move back en masse to Israel to take over the voting process. The history of Islam is a history of ignoring the rights of other religions.
If Israel were to let all the "Palestinians" back in they would immediately turn into second class citizens or outright slaves.
What reasonable person would opt for such?
The Palestinians who left in the 40's can stay where they are now.
Nothing else will be acceptable to the Israeli population.

Correct! No country in the world would allow millions upon millions of enemies of the state into their country. Especially a country as small as Israel.

Only the true antisemites demand this!

translation: No one should expect jews to live by the same standards that we DEMAND in every other nation that allows our subculture to permeate their society. Indeed, those who demand the same kind of ethnic equality I IRONICALLY ENJOY HERE for israel must hate da jooos.

 

[Shogun]

b. Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194.

This point will be a problem for Israel as it insures that the Palestinians need only move back en masse to Israel to take over the voting process. The history of Islam is a history of ignoring the rights of other religions.
If Israel were to let all the "Palestinians" back in they would immediately turn into second class citizens or outright slaves.
What reasonable person would opt for such?
The Palestinians who left in the 40's can stay where they are now.
Nothing else will be acceptable to the Israeli population.

Correct! No country in the world would allow millions upon millions of enemies of the state into their country. Especially a country as small as Israel.

Only the true antisemites demand this!

ENEMIES, noun, See Non-Jews.

 

[Charles Stucker]

Correct! No country in the world would allow millions upon millions of enemies of the state into their country. Especially a country as small as Israel.

Only the true antisemites demand this!

Actually there are also a bunch of political hacks who think everything will turn out rosy if the Jews would just let the "poor Palestinians" have a chance.
They have nothing against either side, because they know nothing about either side beyond sound bites.

 

[The Rabbi]

Correct! No country in the world would allow millions upon millions of enemies of the state into their country. Especially a country as small as Israel.

Only the true antisemites demand this!

Actually there are also a bunch of political hacks who think everything will turn out rosy if the Jews would just let the "poor Palestinians" have a chance.
They have nothing against either side, because they know nothing about either side beyond sound bites.

There is an unfortunate tendency in America to see every political issue as similar to what happened in the u.S. So apartheid was like Jim Crow. The Palestinian issue is like segregation.
Of course the issues have nothing to do with each other, they have completely different histories and dynamics. The Palestinians are not waging a civil rights campaign but a terrorist campaign designed to drive the Israelis into the sea. They are aided in this by other Arab countries which use the Palestinians as pawns of their own mainly to deflect attention from their own tyrrannies and oppressions, and as a means of uniting Arabs. So Americans who speak about Palestinians as though they were Martin Luther King's disciples are simply useful idiots to their cause.

 

[jillian]

ENEMIES, noun, See Non-Jews.

i keep telling you, honey... stop projecting your world view on others....

now how bout explaining what other country is asked to allow itself to be overrun by people who want it to be destroyed....

then we can chat.

muah

hugs and kisses


-- j

 

[Sunni Man]

Correct! No country in the world would allow millions upon millions of enemies of the state into their country. Especially a country as small as Israel.

Only the true antisemites demand this!

Actually there are also a bunch of political hacks who think everything will turn out rosy if the Jews would just let the "poor Palestinians" have a chance.
They have nothing against either side, because they know nothing about either side beyond sound bites.

There is an unfortunate tendency in America to see every political issue as similar to what happened in the u.S. So apartheid was like Jim Crow. The Palestinian issue is like segregation.
Of course the issues have nothing to do with each other, they have completely different histories and dynamics..

In many ways you are correct Rabbi

The Israeli/Palestine situation is much more like S.Africia when the brutal apartheid system was enforced upon the blacks.

 

[The Rabbi]

Actually there are also a bunch of political hacks who think everything will turn out rosy if the Jews would just let the "poor Palestinians" have a chance.
They have nothing against either side, because they know nothing about either side beyond sound bites.

There is an unfortunate tendency in America to see every political issue as similar to what happened in the u.S. So apartheid was like Jim Crow. The Palestinian issue is like segregation.
Of course the issues have nothing to do with each other, they have completely different histories and dynamics..

In many ways you are correct Rabbi

The Israeli/Palestine situation is much more like S.Africia when the brutal apartheid system was enforced upon the blacks.

It's actually nothing like that, not in history, sociology, economics, or politics.
But keep trying....

 

[Kalam]

It's actually nothing like that, not in history, sociology, economics, or politics.
But keep trying....

"What is not so understandable, not justified, is what it did to another people to guarantee its existence. I've been very deeply distressed in my visit to the Holy Land; it reminded me so much of what happened to us black people in South Africa. I have seen the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about."

-Archbishop Desmond Tutu, 2002
(Apartheid in the Holy Land | World news | The Guardian)
​

"The Jews took Israel from the Arabs after the Arabs had lived there for a thousand years. Israel, like South Africa, is an apartheid state."

- Hendrik Verwoerd, South African PM and "Architect of Apartheid", 1961​

"Regarding apartheid, the team found that Israel's laws and policies in the OPT fit the definition of apartheid in the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid. Israeli law conveys privileges to Jewish settlers and disadvantages Palestinians in the same territory on the basis of their respective identities, which function in this case as racialised identities in the sense provided by international law. Israel's practices are corollary to five of the six 'inhuman acts' listed by the Convention. A policy of apartheid is especially indicated by Israel's demarcation of geographic ‘reserves' in the West Bank, to which Palestinian residence is confined and which Palestinians cannot leave without a permit. The system is very similar to the policy of ‘Grand Apartheid' in apartheid South Africa, in which black South Africans were confined to black homelands delineated by the South African government, while white South Africans enjoyed freedom of movement and full civil rights in the rest of the country."

- SA academic study finds that Israel is practicing apartheid and colonialism in the Occupied Palestinian Territories​

"The logic of Apartheid is akin to the logic of Zionism... Life for the Palestinians is infinitely worse than what we ever had experienced under Apartheid... The price they (Palestinians) have had to pay for resistance much more horrendous"

-Farid Esack​

"We call upon the Israeli government to cease their activities that are reminiscent of apartheid forced removals and resume negotiations immediately."

-South African Government; Nov 24, 2009
(International Relations and Cooperation on Israeli settlement activities in East Jerusalem)
​

"In effect, we established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture. That oppressive regime exists to this day. The Six-Day War's seventh day has transformed us from a moral society, sure of the justice of Israel's creation, into a society that oppresses another people, preventing it from realizing its legitimate national aspirations. The Six-Day War's seventh day has transformed us from a just society into an unjust one, prepared to expand its control atop another nation's ruins. The discarding of our moral foundation has hurt us as a society, reinforcing the arguments of the world's hostile elements and sowers of evil and intensifying their influence."

- Michael Ben-Yair, Israeli Attorney General (1993-1996), 2002
(The war's seventh day - Haaretz - Israel News)​

"As someone who lived in apartheid South Africa and who has visited Palestine I say with confidence that Israel is an apartheid state. In fact, I believe that some of the atrocities committed against the Palestinians pale in comparison to those committed by the erstwhile apartheid regime in South Africa."

-Pres. Willie Madisha on behalf of the Congress of South African Trade Unions, 2006
(South African union joins boycott of Israel - Israel News, Ynetnews)​

 

[Coyote]

What fairytale world does this asshole live in? Really, I'd love to take a hit off of the crackpipe he just smoked. Must be some good shit.

Jerusalem, ALL of Jerusalem, belongs to Israel.

There is no such thing as a Palestinian. I would support a joint fund of all nations to pay for the peaceful relocation of the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza. Give them enough to survive on for a few years. I see a lot of empty condos in Dubai.

Claiming there is "no such thing" as a Palestinian is nothing more than semantical dishonesty. What ever you call them - they have been living in that area for centuries. Your idea to export them to other arab nations is as retarded as the once-held fantasy of exporting freed slaves to Liberia because....after all...they're all "African" and Africans are all the same...just like all Arabs are the same.....

Hamas will never lay down its arms - therefore, I support a joint task force of Israeli, European and American soldiers, numbering in the hundreds of thousands, to eradicate Hamas from Gaza. There would be a 14-day period not only guaranteeing the safe passage of Arab civilians living there into Egypt, but also for Hamas to lay down its arms. After 14 days, flatten the place. That's how you deal with your enemy in war - you don't just barely beat them, you fucking anihilate them.

Gaza is the most densly populated region on earth. Do you even begin to understand that reality when you talk about exporting these people to other countries? Are you really this stupid? I'm guessing that you are a proud supporter of genocide then.

I would then remove the West Bank and Gaza as occupied territory status and incorporate them into Israel. Any remaining Arabs in any of the lands must apply for Israeli citizenship or risk deportation.

That seems to contradict your previous statement (fucking anihilate them) or do you mean importing then back from Egypt?

 

[mightypeon]

In my opinion, the plan has passes several treshholds which are required for lasting peace.
In general, if you want peace, you have to minimize the number of those who want war.
The persons with the strongest (and totally understandable) motivation for war are palestinian refugees living in camps. Negotiations largely failed, and for them, only warfare is likely to reclaim their "homelands". The situation is a bit like the one of the "Sudetendeutschen" or the German inhabitants of East Prussia and Silesia. In order to create a system of peace on Germanys eastern border, the refugees from these areas were integrated, given new jobs and a new social acceptance in a relativly quick way. After they had a "new home" they were of course much less likely to lob missles at the unsuspecting Tchechs or Poles (well, the Red Army may have had something to do with it too, but Germany only renounced its claims on Silesia and East Prussia after the reunification). The problem with the Palestinian refugees is more difficult. They dont have an equivalent of "West Germany" to migrate into, and the countries in the area are not solid enough to take up such a mass of people (Asking Jordania to nationalise its Palestinian refugess is roughly like asking Switzerland to take in 8 million German refugees from East Prussia), nor can current Palestine do that.

So, other states will have to "pick up" those refugees. I recommend:
1: The USA: Given the sheer amount of support they threw behind Israel, it would be fair to actually support both sides in a way that makes lasting peace more likely
2: Germany: Historically, we are indirectly responsible for the situation.
3: Russia: Well, Siberia needs a couple of people anyway.

Of course, noone exactly wants to have a bunch of not exactly educated, poor and resistive people in ones country. To change this, a signficant education programm in the camps has to be initiated, preferably yesterday.

 

[The Rabbi]

It's actually nothing like that, not in history, sociology, economics, or politics.
But keep trying....

"What is not so understandable, not justified, is what it did to another people to guarantee its existence. I've been very deeply distressed in my visit to the Holy Land; it reminded me so much of what happened to us black people in South Africa. I have seen the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about."

-Archbishop Desmond Tutu, 2002
(Apartheid in the Holy Land | World news | The Guardian)
​

"The Jews took Israel from the Arabs after the Arabs had lived there for a thousand years. Israel, like South Africa, is an apartheid state."

- Hendrik Verwoerd, South African PM and "Architect of Apartheid", 1961​

"Regarding apartheid, the team found that Israel's laws and policies in the OPT fit the definition of apartheid in the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid. Israeli law conveys privileges to Jewish settlers and disadvantages Palestinians in the same territory on the basis of their respective identities, which function in this case as racialised identities in the sense provided by international law. Israel's practices are corollary to five of the six 'inhuman acts' listed by the Convention. A policy of apartheid is especially indicated by Israel's demarcation of geographic ‘reserves' in the West Bank, to which Palestinian residence is confined and which Palestinians cannot leave without a permit. The system is very similar to the policy of ‘Grand Apartheid' in apartheid South Africa, in which black South Africans were confined to black homelands delineated by the South African government, while white South Africans enjoyed freedom of movement and full civil rights in the rest of the country."

- SA academic study finds that Israel is practicing apartheid and colonialism in the Occupied Palestinian Territories​

"The logic of Apartheid is akin to the logic of Zionism... Life for the Palestinians is infinitely worse than what we ever had experienced under Apartheid... The price they (Palestinians) have had to pay for resistance much more horrendous"

-Farid Esack​

"We call upon the Israeli government to cease their activities that are reminiscent of apartheid forced removals and resume negotiations immediately."

-South African Government; Nov 24, 2009
(International Relations and Cooperation on Israeli settlement activities in East Jerusalem)
​

"In effect, we established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture. That oppressive regime exists to this day. The Six-Day War's seventh day has transformed us from a moral society, sure of the justice of Israel's creation, into a society that oppresses another people, preventing it from realizing its legitimate national aspirations. The Six-Day War's seventh day has transformed us from a just society into an unjust one, prepared to expand its control atop another nation's ruins. The discarding of our moral foundation has hurt us as a society, reinforcing the arguments of the world's hostile elements and sowers of evil and intensifying their influence."

- Michael Ben-Yair, Israeli Attorney General (1993-1996), 2002
(The war's seventh day - Haaretz - Israel News)​

"As someone who lived in apartheid South Africa and who has visited Palestine I say with confidence that Israel is an apartheid state. In fact, I believe that some of the atrocities committed against the Palestinians pale in comparison to those committed by the erstwhile apartheid regime in South Africa."

-Pres. Willie Madisha on behalf of the Congress of South African Trade Unions, 2006
(South African union joins boycott of Israel - Israel News, Ynetnews)​

"The two situations are nothing alike." -Mother Theresa.

 

[Sunni Man]

"The two situations are nothing alike." -Mother Theresa.

Mother Theresa???

Wow, you really are backed into a corner!!!

 

[Kalam]

"The two situations are nothing alike." -Mother Theresa.

Perhaps it looked that way from Calcutta.

I purposefully quoted individuals and organizations prominent in South Africa or Israel, many of whom experienced apartheid directly. When the architect of the system himself makes his diagnosis, there's simply no denying it. Israel is an apartheid state.

 

[Kalam]

That is not to say that certain "Islamic" states don't practice forms of oppressive gender apartheid or religious apartheid. Denying the existence of Israel's system of ethnoreligious apartheid, however, only serves to legitimize and perpetuate it.

 

[The Rabbi]

"The two situations are nothing alike." -Mother Theresa.

Perhaps it looked that way from Calcutta.

I purposefully quoted individuals and organizations prominent in South Africa or Israel, many of whom experienced apartheid directly. When the architect of the system himself makes his diagnosis, there's simply no denying it. Israel is an apartheid state.

You quoted a bunch of politically interested persons who have a stake in making that connection. That is not proof of anything, other than that people can twist what they want to achieve their ends.
I could go on and on showing the differences but that would be superfluous here. Anyone who is convinced that the two are identical is already too far removed from reality.

 

[Sunni Man]

Gaza is the worlds largest concentration camp.

The camp is surrounded by a wall that is complete with guard towers and is manned 24 hours a day.

The prison population is dependent on the guards for both food and water.

Which can be rationed or denied for any infraction, no matter how petty.

The Gaza inmates can be shot, bombed. or murdered at the discretion of the Warden (Israel)

I guess you are right Rabbi.

Israel isn't running an apartheid state.

It's much more like Auschwitz or Dachau.

 

[Kalam]

You quoted a bunch of politically interested persons who have a stake in making that connection. That is not proof of anything, other than that people can twist what they want to achieve their ends.

That's a sweeping and vague dismissal of many salient points raised by prominent South Africans and Israelis on the issue, don't you think?

I could go on and on showing the differences but that would be superfluous here. Anyone who is convinced that the two are identical is already too far removed from reality.

Again, I recommend reading through this article:
SA academic study finds that Israel is practicing apartheid and colonialism in the Occupied Palestinian Territories

 

[The Rabbi]

You quoted a bunch of politically interested persons who have a stake in making that connection. That is not proof of anything, other than that people can twist what they want to achieve their ends.

That's a sweeping and vague dismissal of many salient points raised by prominent South Africans and Israelis on the issue, don't you think?

It was an appropriate characterization of the quotations you offered. By the same token you could probably show Israel is practicing Nazism.

 

[Kalam]

It was an appropriate characterization of the quotations you offered.

I think it was an unqualified, out-of-hand rejection of information that you did not like. Basically, it was a strategy used by many supporters of Israel when their positions simply do not mesh with reality.

By the same token you could probably show Israel is practicing Nazism.

If Eichmann had described Israel's actions as a "holocaust," I'd be in no position to deny it.