BREAKING NEWS--CA--Another Mass Shooting

[Pogo]

What's ironic Is gun violence and all types of violence are the symptoms, mental illness is the disease. Yes mentally I'll people have always been among us, but because of advances in psychiatry they are less dangerous to society and themselves than they were in the past. We need more research and better treatment.

Uh -- no dood, mental illness ain't the disease, as the point whooshes over yon head.
Mental illness is manifest in a thousand different ways, most of them nonviolent, most of them without firearms or even destruction. The disease is gun culture, if it really needs to be spelled out. The entire point is that the mentally ill are a constant. They were with us before firearms and they weren't mass-slaying people then.

But plug in the culture of Almighty Gun worship glorified at every turn every day, and voilà, you have an avenue of mass destruction for that mentally unstable person who's not only got access but is being encouraged to take that route in mental messages from a hundred different directions. "Guns are power", we're all told, and here's a person with personal power problems; do the math.

Now you can go ahead and try to find these mental cases before they happen. Again, rotsa ruck with that game of whack-a-mole. I just don't think throwing government mental health money at it is any more productive that throwing gun control legislation at it. Either way you're playing whack-a-mole.

What you're saying makes perfect sense but overlooks a critical contributing element -- population density. We are living in an increasingly crowded society, a circumstance which tends to exaggerate and aggravate antagonisms which otherwise would either not exist or would be ignored.

I think the factor of crowding is more relevant than the presence of guns.

Not "overlooking" that, it's obvious. I don't see them as really related.

It's always been clear that crowding people closer together produces more aggression. The direct issue here is what method those people go to for conflict resolution, and for us that means the firearm. That message of that instrument is pounded into the collective head and reinforced over and over in every medium including this one. Other parts of the world, given the same population density (or more) suffer the same aggressive bubble-ups but simply don't resort to the firearm as a remedy for them. That's what sets us apart and that's what needs to change yesterday.

 

[Pogo]

I see all the gun grabbers have been having orgasms all day over this.

You can't "take the gun out of the equation". It's a story about a shooting. No gun = no shooting.

If it were a rock, it would be a story about rocking. It isn't. But if it were it would be confined to "News of the Weird" because we're just not a nation of rocking. We're a nation of shooting. And that, I submit, is the core of the issue.

I hate to break it to you but he murdered more people with a sharp pointy object than with a gun, so clearly it's a story about a stabbing if we're going to go based on number of victims. Once again, the point sails right over your head.

They love to leave things like facts out. You know. There was a knife. That he told everyone he was going to do it and neither Youtube or anyone else reported it. That the cops screwed up. Oh and the biggie of biggies. Half the people he shot were in a gun free zone.

None of that has any relevance to anything here.

And that's my post you've quoted -- not a "gun grabber". Or are you just not bothering to read?

Wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Pogo]

I'm going to stick my neck out here, but I believe this is the right way for America, and other countries, to go.

Ban all public ownership of handguns, only allowing hunting weapons, single shot at that (Except double barreled shotguns).
Anyone found with anything other than the few types of legal gun should face the death penalty, regardless of if they were committing other crime at the time or not.

Pipe dream I'm afraid. We're way past the point where that would even be possible, leaving aside the question of whether it's legally justifiable. If God Herself came down and declared, "that's it, no more guns will be made, ever", we'd still have enough to supply everybody and our children's children indefinitely.

Boggles the mind but them's the numbers. And it just underscores the depth of the obsession and how long it's been hanging on us.

 

[Warrior102]

Hey Warrior, if someone on this board spouts hatred at feminists and minorities, and proudly refers to themselves as an alpha male, what's normally their political affiliation?

If the kid had been posting here, Warrior and a few others here would have embraced him as one of their own.

Yeah - he really looked like a gw bush voter

 

[hunarcy]

BBC News - California drive-by gunman kills six in Santa Barbara

Just one more pointless idiot, made dangerous because he had a gun.

yeah, the gun made him do it.......

No, but it made the outdoor killings possible.

And the "outdoor killings" victims are more dead?

The fact is that it isn't what he chose to use to kill that's important. What's important is that so many were aware of his descent into madness, yet he was still free to victimize people.

 

[Pogo]

Hey Warrior, if someone on this board spouts hatred at feminists and minorities, and proudly refers to themselves as an alpha male, what's normally their political affiliation?

If the kid had been posting here, Warrior and a few others here would have embraced him as one of their own.

the kid was a leftist

hi favorite youtube channel was the young turks

Congratulations. Using the blood of innocent victims to make your own cheap political post hoc pseudo-points on a message board. How original. You must be very proud.

 

[Missourian]

Hey Warrior, if someone on this board spouts hatred at feminists and minorities, and proudly refers to themselves as an alpha male, what's normally their political affiliation?

If the kid had been posting here, Warrior and a few others here would have embraced him as one of their own.

the kid was a leftist

hi favorite youtube channel was the young turks

Congratulations. Using the blood of innocent victims to make your own cheap political post hoc pseudo-points on a message board. How original. You must be very proud.

Nope...that's what Howey tried to do that last night...Jon is just setting the record straight.

 

[Ringel05]

the kid was a leftist

hi favorite youtube channel was the young turks

Congratulations. Using the blood of innocent victims to make your own cheap political post hoc pseudo-points on a message board. How original. You must be very proud.

Nope...that's what Howey tried to do that last night...Jon is just setting the record straight.

True but that's not the issue except for those who wish to score political points. It's sadly pathetic that some feel it's necessary.

 

[Pogo]

How do we get them treatment?

Like way too many others Rocko wants to run around putting fingers in the dyke, treating a million symptoms while ignoring a single disease.

Mentally ill people weren't just invented; they've always been with us. And still will be tomorrow, from directions we can't anticipate. But regardless how stable or unstable somebody is, without a culture that's continuously yammering on and on about the idolatry of Almighty Gun, it wouldn't be what they use as a way out.

But yeah, good luck with that game of whack-a-mole...

And you are completely missing the point with that completely misinformed or misleading descriptor. It's never been about your so called "Almighty Gun" it always been about the Almighty Constitution, In this case one aspect of the 2nd Amendment.
The real rub with restrictions upon each aspect of the freedoms guaranteed is what is considered reasonable and the fact that all Amendment restrictions should (by intent of the founding fathers) be treated equally, this is obviously not the case when it comes to the 2nd. The real problem here isn't firearms or any other weapon, the real problem is identifying and dealing with mental illness in a constitutionally legal manner. The other path is to repeal the 2nd and ya just might succeed in 50 to a hundred years, who knows.

No I'm afraid you're missing the point. Nothing I speak of has anything to do with the Constitution or any laws whatsoever. It's about culture. It's about values. Culture is what drives obsession. You can't write an obsession into a constitution. When I say "Almighty Gun" the wording is deliberate. It refers to a national mindset. That is in no way related to the Constitution. The Constitution didn't drive us to this point, and it's not going to drive us out of it.

So my post above is about the folly of the approach of plugging fingers in the dyke by supposedly screening out this or that mentally unstable citizen while at the same time the culture continues to push the obsession that drives the whole engine. It's analogous to trying to light a match in a rainstorm. You don't keep striking match after match -- you get out of the rain. You remove the main influence.

In this case the influence is cultural. Ergo that's where the remedy needs to be. The sea wall, not the holes in the dyke.

 

[Missourian]

Congratulations. Using the blood of innocent victims to make your own cheap political post hoc pseudo-points on a message board. How original. You must be very proud.

Nope...that's what Howey tried to do that last night...Jon is just setting the record straight.

True but that's not the issue except for those who wish to score political points. It's sadly pathetic that some feel it's necessary.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Ringel...IMO combating misinformation with fact is always the issue.

 

[Pogo]

the kid was a leftist

hi favorite youtube channel was the young turks

Congratulations. Using the blood of innocent victims to make your own cheap political post hoc pseudo-points on a message board. How original. You must be very proud.

Nope...that's what Howey tried to do that last night...Jon is just setting the record straight.

Tu quoque fallacy. I don't even see that post here.

Haiku-man went down that path by giving Wanker102's troll post any encouragement at all. We expect it from Wanker; we don't expect it from real posters.

Now if you're gonna argue that once one poster brings in a fallacy everybody else is somehow inoculated, well that's very entertaining. Doesn't work that way.

 

[hunarcy]

Congratulations. Using the blood of innocent victims to make your own cheap political post hoc pseudo-points on a message board. How original. You must be very proud.

Nope...that's what Howey tried to do that last night...Jon is just setting the record straight.

True but that's not the issue except for those who wish to score political points. It's sadly pathetic that some feel it's necessary.

Well, it becomes the issue when such comments are made, doesn't it. Or, would you prefer to let such inaccuracies to be unchallenged?

 

[Ringel05]

Like way too many others Rocko wants to run around putting fingers in the dyke, treating a million symptoms while ignoring a single disease.

Mentally ill people weren't just invented; they've always been with us. And still will be tomorrow, from directions we can't anticipate. But regardless how stable or unstable somebody is, without a culture that's continuously yammering on and on about the idolatry of Almighty Gun, it wouldn't be what they use as a way out.

But yeah, good luck with that game of whack-a-mole...

And you are completely missing the point with that completely misinformed or misleading descriptor. It's never been about your so called "Almighty Gun" it always been about the Almighty Constitution, In this case one aspect of the 2nd Amendment.
The real rub with restrictions upon each aspect of the freedoms guaranteed is what is considered reasonable and the fact that all Amendment restrictions should (by intent of the founding fathers) be treated equally, this is obviously not the case when it comes to the 2nd. The real problem here isn't firearms or any other weapon, the real problem is identifying and dealing with mental illness in a constitutionally legal manner. The other path is to repeal the 2nd and ya just might succeed in 50 to a hundred years, who knows.

No I'm afraid you're missing the point. Nothing I speak of has anything to do with the Constitution or any laws whatsoever. It's about culture. It's about values. Culture is what drives obsession. You can't write an obsession into a constitution. When I say "Almighty Gun" the wording is deliberate. It refers to a national mindset. That is in no way related to the Constitution. The Constitution didn't drive us to this point, and it's not going to drive us out of it.

So my post above is about the folly of the approach of plugging fingers in the dyke by supposedly screening out this or that mentally unstable citizen while at the same time the culture continues to push the obsession that drives the whole engine. It's analogous to trying to light a match in a rainstorm. You don't keep striking match after match -- you get out of the rain. You remove the main influence.

In this case the influence is cultural. Ergo that's where the remedy needs to be. The sea wall, not the holes in the dyke.

I know what you were driving at and you're wrong. You're relying on a Media created catchphrase that is ignorantly deluded at best, intentionally deceptive at worst.

 

[Missourian]

Congratulations. Using the blood of innocent victims to make your own cheap political post hoc pseudo-points on a message board. How original. You must be very proud.

Nope...that's what Howey tried to do that last night...Jon is just setting the record straight.

Tu quoque fallacy. I don't even see that post here.

Haiku-man went down that path by giving Wanker102's troll post any encouragement at all. We expect it from Wanker; we don't expect it from real posters.

Now if you're gonna argue that once one poster brings in a fallacy everybody else is somehow inoculated, well that's very entertaining. Doesn't work that way.

He started a whole thread about it, Pogo....yesterday.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/curre...-shooter-belonged-to-men-s-rights-groups.html

I would say that it is improper to introduce the topic, but not in any way improper to counter lies and misinformation.

Want to blame someone? Blame Howey.

His thread is still open...

 

[Pogo]

And you are completely missing the point with that completely misinformed or misleading descriptor. It's never been about your so called "Almighty Gun" it always been about the Almighty Constitution, In this case one aspect of the 2nd Amendment.
The real rub with restrictions upon each aspect of the freedoms guaranteed is what is considered reasonable and the fact that all Amendment restrictions should (by intent of the founding fathers) be treated equally, this is obviously not the case when it comes to the 2nd. The real problem here isn't firearms or any other weapon, the real problem is identifying and dealing with mental illness in a constitutionally legal manner. The other path is to repeal the 2nd and ya just might succeed in 50 to a hundred years, who knows.

No I'm afraid you're missing the point. Nothing I speak of has anything to do with the Constitution or any laws whatsoever. It's about culture. It's about values. Culture is what drives obsession. You can't write an obsession into a constitution. When I say "Almighty Gun" the wording is deliberate. It refers to a national mindset. That is in no way related to the Constitution. The Constitution didn't drive us to this point, and it's not going to drive us out of it.

So my post above is about the folly of the approach of plugging fingers in the dyke by supposedly screening out this or that mentally unstable citizen while at the same time the culture continues to push the obsession that drives the whole engine. It's analogous to trying to light a match in a rainstorm. You don't keep striking match after match -- you get out of the rain. You remove the main influence.

In this case the influence is cultural. Ergo that's where the remedy needs to be. The sea wall, not the holes in the dyke.

I know what you were driving at and you're wrong. You're relying on a Media created catchphrase that is ignorantly deluded at best, intentionally deceptive at worst.

Uh--- I don't take this from the "media". This is my own philosophy. I don't know what "catch phrase" you're talking about.

Would be nice to be acknowledged for my own freaking thoughts that at least they ARE my own thoughts. Dismissing them as emanating from somewhere else as a way of not addressing them smacks of the Alinsky fallacy.

And if you do "know what I'm driving at" then what's all this Constitution jazz? How is that even tangentially related?
This is why I suspect you don't get what I'm talking about. See the next post from AquaAthena. More at that.

What I address here is not the legal; it is the spiritual. It's exactly the same point I've been making since I joined this website, and before. "Media" had nothing to do with it. "Media", as far as I know, doesn't dabble in the spiritual. If anything it kills it. Which is ironically my whole point.

 

[Ava]

The remedy, in my opinion, is going back to a stable and strong familial life, where the children feel valued and a part of something consistent They need to feel an inclusion. In addition to love, children need consistency and stability. They need responsibilities and goals, guidance and discipline ( boundaries ) not the things money can buy.

I don't see ^^^ happening, sadly.

 

[Pogo]

Nope...that's what Howey tried to do that last night...Jon is just setting the record straight.

Tu quoque fallacy. I don't even see that post here.

Haiku-man went down that path by giving Wanker102's troll post any encouragement at all. We expect it from Wanker; we don't expect it from real posters.

Now if you're gonna argue that once one poster brings in a fallacy everybody else is somehow inoculated, well that's very entertaining. Doesn't work that way.

He started a whole thread about it, Pogo.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/curre...-shooter-belonged-to-men-s-rights-groups.html

I'm not interested in that thread; we're in this thread. What you're trying to do was a tu quoque fallacy, and still is. Not interested.

 

[Missourian]

Tu quoque fallacy. I don't even see that post here.

Haiku-man went down that path by giving Wanker102's troll post any encouragement at all. We expect it from Wanker; we don't expect it from real posters.

Now if you're gonna argue that once one poster brings in a fallacy everybody else is somehow inoculated, well that's very entertaining. Doesn't work that way.

He started a whole thread about it, Pogo.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/curre...-shooter-belonged-to-men-s-rights-groups.html

I'm not interested in that thread; we're in this thread. What you're trying to do was a tu quoque fallacy, and still is. Not interested.

Translation: My outrage only extends to the truthful fact that he was indeed a liberal...don't for a second expect me to take my own party member to task for the exact same thing I'm supposedly incensed over here.

Duly noted.

 

[Ringel05]

No I'm afraid you're missing the point. Nothing I speak of has anything to do with the Constitution or any laws whatsoever. It's about culture. It's about values. Culture is what drives obsession. You can't write an obsession into a constitution. When I say "Almighty Gun" the wording is deliberate. It refers to a national mindset. That is in no way related to the Constitution. The Constitution didn't drive us to this point, and it's not going to drive us out of it.

So my post above is about the folly of the approach of plugging fingers in the dyke by supposedly screening out this or that mentally unstable citizen while at the same time the culture continues to push the obsession that drives the whole engine. It's analogous to trying to light a match in a rainstorm. You don't keep striking match after match -- you get out of the rain. You remove the main influence.

In this case the influence is cultural. Ergo that's where the remedy needs to be. The sea wall, not the holes in the dyke.

I know what you were driving at and you're wrong. You're relying on a Media created catchphrase that is ignorantly deluded at best, intentionally deceptive at worst.

Uh--- I don't take this from the "media". This is my own philosophy. I don't know what "catch phrase" you're talking about.

Would be nice to be acknowledged for my own freaking thoughts that at least they ARE my own thoughts. Dismissing them as emanating from somewhere else as a way of not addressing them smacks of the Alinsky fallacy.

And if you do "know what I'm driving at" then what's all this Constitution jazz? How is that even tangentially related?
This is why I suspect you don't get what I'm talking about. See the next post from AquaAthena. More at that.

"Almighty Gun" and "Gun Culture" are both media catch phrases that are constantly used to explain the issue in order to minimize and/or deny the constitutional aspect inherent in the argument. I'm surprised you didn't know that so yes it's all tangentially related.
I'm glad you acknowledged your philosophy is purely subjective but also quite surprised you referenced Alinsky in your response.
Granted I may not be getting your drift but based on the known catch phrases you used and how they are repeatedly utilized by the anti-2nd Amendment organizations and individuals.......

 

[Pogo]

He started a whole thread about it, Pogo.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/curre...-shooter-belonged-to-men-s-rights-groups.html

I'm not interested in that thread; we're in this thread. What you're trying to do was a tu quoque fallacy, and still is. Not interested.

Translation: My outrage only extends to the truthful fact that he was indeed a liberal...don't for a second expect me to take my own party member to task for the exact same thing I'm supposedly incensed over here.

Duly noted.

I don't even know what that means. I noted Haiku-man's blatant fallacy -- in THIS thread -- and that was it. Done. No further comment was even necessary unless his fallacy can be explained as valid. It can't. Move on and stop derailing.