Bush and Officials Lied leading up to Iraq war

[DeadCanDance]

It's hilarious to revist just how badly RSG was debunked on this thread. He was just pulling raw numbers out of his ass, and making up stuff as he went along....

DeadCanDance: If Bosnia/Kosovo had ended up costing us one trillion dollars, 35,000 dead and wounded american soldiers, and trapped us in the midst of an ongoing and bloody civil war after 5 years, I'd say fuck 'em and bring the troops home. It ain't worth it. Fortunately, Clinton handled it competently, with skillful diplomacy, minimal cost to the american taxpayer, and no loss of american troops. So history will judge him kindly on it.

If Bush had handled Iraq and Afghanistan as competently as Bosnia and Kosovo were handled, Bush would be a hero today with a 70% approval rating.

RetiredGunnySarge: You are aware 20k troops are STILL there, with aircraft ships and all the support that goes with those missions? Still deployed in a place we were told would be a short mission that NATO would take over.

RSG debunked here on the number of American troops in bosnia/Kosovo…

DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE number – from Mainman:

from this DoD website:

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/news....aspx?id=25716

"The U.S. today has about 2,500 troops in Kosovo and around 900 in Bosnia." i.e., Total = 3,400 american troops in Kosovo/Bosnia

RSG: “Still deployed in a place we were told would be a short mission that NATO would take over.

Next, RSG is again debunked by US Government website. Stabilization operations in Bosnia were turned over to the European Union in 2004, with a small presence of American troops remaining in the country.

US Government website:

“On December 2, 2004, NATO formally concluded its Stabilization Force (SFOR)
mission in Bosnia-Herzegovina and handed over peace stabilization duties to a European Union force (EUFOR). The mission of the EU’s Operation Althea is to ensure continued compliance with the Dayton peace agreement and contribute to a secure
environment and Bosnia’s efforts towards European integration. The 6,300-strong
operation constitutes the largest EU military mission to date. NATO retains a small
headquarters presence in Sarajevo, with approximately 220 U.S. forces , to provide
advice on defense reforms and to support counterterrorism efforts and the apprehension
of wanted war crimes suspects believed to be hiding in or transiting through Bosnia”.

http://italy.usembassy.gov/pdf/other/RS21774.pdf

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Ohh look pinhead is blathering again. I notice you do not call anyone else that said the same thing as having been "debunked" or is that cause your to retarded to have caught the words in their posts?

 

[maineman]

Ohh look pinhead is blathering again. I notice you do not call anyone else that said the same thing as having been "debunked" or is that cause your to retarded to have caught the words in their posts?

does not change your status in the least....you are a bullshitter and a confirmed liar.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

does not change your status in the least....you are a bullshitter and a confirmed liar.

The liar here is you, by your own standard you have lied steadily through out this thread. You keep making a claim as fact that is blatantly false. You know it is false or should by your own admitted thinking process.

Go ahead repeat the lie for us.... You know ya wanna.

 

[DeadCanDance]

Ohh look pinhead is blathering again. I notice you do not call anyone else that said the same thing as having been "debunked" or is that cause your to retarded to have caught the words in their posts?

Is it so hard for you to admit that you just made up a bunch of stuff, and was wrong? There isn't 20,000 american troops in the balkans, and stabilization operations there have been turned over to the European union. You were wrong on all counts.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Is it so hard for you to admit that you just made up a bunch of stuff, and was wrong? There isn't 20,000 american troops in the balkans, and stabilization operations there have been turned over to the European union. You were wrong on all counts.

No, I may be wrong, but not because I CHOSE to lie about something I knew wasn't true like pinheads you and Maineman. I am going by what I have read here and else where. You on the other hand and Maineman have been shown to be lying sacks of cow shit on the Bush lied claim over and over. But do keep telling us differently.

 

[DeadCanDance]

No, I may be wrong, but not because I CHOSE to lie about something I knew wasn't true like pinheads you and Maineman. I am going by what I have read here and else where. You on the other hand and Maineman have been shown to be lying sacks of cow shit on the Bush lied claim over and over. But do keep telling us differently.

Okay, I've offically concluded that your a liar, who can't be trusted to admit a mistake, or tell the truth. In fact, I'm doubting your alleged credentials as a veteran. Even I knew that the american military presence had been drawn down to a minimum in the balkans, and operations there were largely being run by the European Union. I would think somebody with a military career, and allegedly still having friends in the military wouldn't just make stuff up out of whole cloth about america's military posture in the balkans.

Internet poseur.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Okay, I've offically concluded that your a liar, who can't be trusted to admit a mistake, or tell the truth. In fact, I'm doubting your alleged credentials as a veteran. Even I knew that the american military presence had been drawn down to a minimum in the balkans, and operations there were largely being run by the European Union. I would think somebody with a military career, and allegedly still having friends in the military wouldn't just make stuff up out of whole cloth about america's military posture in the balkans.

Internet poseur.

I have no one I kow in the military any more never claimed I did retard. Further I am a retired Marine, the operations in that area are Army/AirForce/Navy. But then anyone with half a functioning brain would know that. Do blather on retard. Remind us of all the service YOU have done for your country other then undermine it in a time of war and whine like a baby when you don't get what you want.

BOO HOO HOO poor abused DCD such a horrible life you have been held prisoner in a country you do not even like. Prevented from bad mouthing the Government, its troops and its veterans, BOO HOO HOO.

You wouldn't know a retired dog catcher much less a retired military person. But do keep it up retard.

 

[Shogun]

hey, DCD... you can always pull a RGS and complain to the mods about that last post.

 

[maineman]

The liar here is you, by your own standard you have lied steadily through out this thread. You keep making a claim as fact that is blatantly false. You know it is false or should by your own admitted thinking process.

Go ahead repeat the lie for us.... You know ya wanna.

You have not heard one lie from me.

Tell us again about the 20K troops in Bosnia.

oh...and you never did tell me...do you know what the "E" stands for in "NIE"?

 

[maineman]

oh heck...you probably DON'T know so I'll tell you,

E S T I M A T E !!!!!

es·ti·mate
–noun
4. an approximate judgment or calculation, as of the value, amount, time, size, or weight of something.
5. a judgment or opinion, as of the qualities of a person or thing.
6. a statement of the approximate charge for work to be done, submitted by a person or business firm ready to undertake the work.

here's a newsflash for ya:

the words "approximate", "opinion", and "judgment" do not play well together with the concept of "total absence of doubt" and "absolute certainty". If there were absolute certainty, they would be no need to ESTIMATE!

 

[DeadCanDance]

I have no one I kow in the military any more never claimed I did retard. Further I am a retired Marine, the operations in that area are Army/AirForce/Navy. But then anyone with half a functioning brain would know that. Do blather on retard. Remind us of all the service YOU have done for your country other then undermine it in a time of war and whine like a baby when you don't get what you want.

BOO HOO HOO poor abused DCD such a horrible life you have been held prisoner in a country you do not even like. Prevented from bad mouthing the Government, its troops and its veterans, BOO HOO HOO.

You wouldn't know a retired dog catcher much less a retired military person. But do keep it up retard.

RGS: "Further I am a retired Marine, the operations in that area are Army/AirForce/Navy. But then anyone with half a functioning brain would know that”



Tsk, Tsk, Tsk. Wrong again. Keep digging that hole deeper.

LOL You, as an “alleged” ex-marine, should know that Marines WERE involved in Kosovo peacekeeping operations….http://archive.seacoastonline.com/1999news/6_14_w1.htm

And that detachments of MEFs even continued operating in Kosovo , well into Bush’s term


Care to retract anything you’ve said in this thread about the Balkans, ALL of which has been wrong??


And now that your excuse that you are allegedly "ex marine" - therefore you couldn't possibly know america's military posture in the balkans -- has been debunked, what's your next excuse?

 

[Alpha1]

oh heck...you probably DON'T know so I'll tell you,

E S T I M A T E !!!!!

es·ti·mate
–noun
4. an approximate judgment or calculation, as of the value, amount, time, size, or weight of something.
5. a judgment or opinion, as of the qualities of a person or thing.
6. a statement of the approximate charge for work to be done, submitted by a person or business firm ready to undertake the work.

here's a newsflash for ya:

the words "approximate", "opinion", and "judgment" do not play well together with the concept of "total absence of doubt" and "absolute certainty". If there were absolute certainty, they would be no need to ESTIMATE!

Are you still crying about getting schooled....?


NIE REPORT.....

"We judge that Iraq has continued its weapons of mass destruction (WMD) programs in defiance of UN resolutions and restrictions. Baghdad has chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles with ranges in excess of UN restrictions; if left unchecked, it probably will have a nuclear weapon during this decade."

Does the word in red denote doubt ?...try a dictionary
An estimate is a judgment....and the NIE 'judgment' is......IRAQ HAS etc....
----------------------------------------------------------------
Bush statement under debate......

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."
George Bush March 18, 2003
----------------------------------------------

Is the 10/02 NIE US intell ?....Yes....
Does it confirm Iraq HAS WMD ? Yes...
Does any foreign intell confirm Iraq had WMD ? ....Yes....
Is the Bush quote accurate ?...YES....ergo...There is no lie...
Does it matter if other intell had caveats ? ...Not a bit...

MM...you are dimissed

 

[maineman]

so.... you have a hard time understanding that that was an "estimate"? A best guess at that moment in time.... how often have the NIE's changed from year to year? Are you being intentionally obtuse or do you really have a learning disorder? The NIE a few years ago said that Iran was close to having nukes and the next year they say that Iran hasd suspended their programs years ago...ESTIMATE. Go read the definition again, asshole.

 

[Alpha1]

so.... you have a hard time understanding that that was an "estimate"? A best guess at that moment in time.... how often have the NIE's changed from year to year? Are you being intentionally obtuse or do you really have a learning disorder? The NIE a few years ago said that Iran was close to having nukes and the next year they say that Iran hasd suspended their programs years ago...ESTIMATE. Go read the definition again, asshole.

I read the definition you posted..understand it perfectly....what I don't have is a reading comprehension problem, at lease not nearly as acute as you exhibit....
estimate...2. to form an opinion of; judge.

NIE report...."We judge that Iraq" etc....

Well I'll be ....."JUDGE".... thats a perfect match......

Now what do they judge.....We judge "Baghdad has chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles " etc....
--------------------------------------------
Wow...new word for MM...HAS...does MM know what that means....seems not.....

HAS....
1. to possess
to own
to hold
for use; contain: He has property. The work has an index.
2. to hold, possess, or accept in some relation, as of kindred or relative position: He wanted to marry her, but she wouldn't have him.
3. to get, receive, or take: to have a part in a play;
to have news.

Can MM figure it out....?

"Baghdad has chemical and biological weapons
"Baghdad possesses chemical and biological weapons
"Baghdad holds chemical and biological weapons

I know its tough Sonny....just try harder....
Is it starting to get through.....
Reading disabilities are serious, you have my pity...

And there is no doubt, thats what the intell said, plain and simple English, well for those that at least, have a valid high school education...

 

[maineman]

I read the definition you posted..understand it perfectly....what I don't have is a reading comprehension problem, at lease not nearly as acute as you exhibit....
estimate...2. to form an opinion of; judge.

NIE report...."We judge that Iraq" etc....

Well I'll be ....."JUDGE".... thats a perfect match......

Now what do they judge.....We judge "Baghdad has chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles " etc....
--------------------------------------------
Wow...new word for MM...HAS...does MM know what that means....seems not.....

HAS....
1. to possess
to own
to hold
for use; contain: He has property. The work has an index.
2. to hold, possess, or accept in some relation, as of kindred or relative position: He wanted to marry her, but she wouldn't have him.
3. to get, receive, or take: to have a part in a play;
to have news.

Can MM figure it out....?

"Baghdad has chemical and biological weapons
"Baghdad possesses chemical and biological weapons
"Baghdad holds chemical and biological weapons

I know its tough Sonny....just try harder....
Is it starting to get through.....
Reading disabilities are serious, you have my pity...

And there is no doubt, thats what the intell said, plain and simple English, well for those that at least, have a valid high school education...

no. judgment is not synonymous with certainty.

When will you admit that NIE's have flip flopped from year to year on a variety of issues.... what they "judge" one year they turn around and "judge" differently the next year. that is why it is called an ESTIMATE. Do you understand what the entire concept of an ESTIMATE is? Apparently not. Gramps. Alzheimer's kicking in early? Didn't get your welfare on time?

judge:

to form a judgment or opinion of;
to infer, think, or hold as an opinion; conclude about or assess;
to make a careful guess about; estimate

 

[Alpha1]

no. judgment is not synonymous with certainty.

H A S.....is synonymous with certainty....

When will you admit that NIE's have flip flopped from year to year on a variety of issues.... what they "judge" one year they turn around and "judge" differently the next year. that is why it is called an ESTIMATE. Do you understand what the entire concept of an ESTIMATE is? Apparently not. Gramps. Alzheimer's kicking in early? Didn't get your welfare on time?

judge:

to form a judgment or opinion of;
to infer, think, or hold as an opinion; conclude about or assess;
to make a careful guess about; estimate

I would hope and expect that as the intell changes, that the judgments and conclusions of the NIE and its 16 different agencys changes...

What is firmly thought to be factual and true today might surely change as intell changes....do you find that logic over you head?

The agreed upon conclusion of 16 different intell agencys of the United States as of 10/02......."Baghdad has chemical and biological weapons"



HAS....
1. to possess
to own
to hold
for use; contain: He has property. The work has an index.
2. to hold, possess, or accept in some relation, as of kindred or relative position: He wanted to marry her, but she wouldn't have him.
3. to get, receive, or take: to have a part in a play;
to have news.

"Baghdad has chemical and biological weapons
"Baghdad possesses chemical and biological weapons
"Baghdad holds chemical and biological weapons

 

[maineman]

I would hope and expect that as the intell changes, that the judgments and conclusions of the NIE and its 16 different agencys changes...

What is firmly thought to be factual and true today might surely change as intell changes....do you find that logic over you head?

not at all. Which is why there is ALWAYS a degree of doubt. If there were absolute certainty, the judgments and conclusions would not change from year to year. For example: Lenin is buried in his tomb in Red Square. next year: Lenin is buried in his tomb in Red Square. Our intelligence agents can walk right up to the glass covered coffin and see him. absolute certainty. If the intell changes and conclusions change, then there, by definition, could NOT have been absolute certainty...there could NOT have been the total absence of doubt.

What part of that do you have a hard time comprehending?

 

[DeadCanDance]

hey, DCD... you can always pull a RGS and complain to the mods about that last post.

LOL

I don't run crying and whining like a little girl to the mods, over garden variety banter.


HaHa....RGS is a pussy. He just neg repped me for proving that everything he said about the balkans was wrong.


PS RGS: I don't give a crap about neg reps. Only little girls, emotional people, and posters who take message boards far too seriously give people neg reps.

 

[maineman]

LOL

I don't run crying and whining like a little girl to the mods, over garden variety banter.


HaHa....RGS is a pussy. He just neg repped me for proving that everything he said about the balkans was wrong.


PS RGS: I don't give a crap about neg reps. Only little girls, emotional people, and posters who take message boards far too seriously give people neg reps.

LOL!!!!