bush's new book getting him into trouble (admitting to waterboarding)

[CMike]

"General welfare" has been perverted by the liberals. That was not the intent of the framers.

The general welfare clause: an exploration of original intent and constitutional limits ...


On January 19, 1788, prior to ratification of the Constitution, Madison authored The Federalist No. 41 to advocate for ratification. In The Federalist No. 41, Madison stated that the General Welfare Clause refers only to other enumerated powers. He wrote, in part:

"Some, who have not denied the necessity of the power of taxation, have grounded a very fierce attack against the Constitution, on the language in which it is defined. It has been urged and echoed, that the power 'to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States,' amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction." n13

...In vetoing an internal improvements bill in 1817, President Madison wrote that "the terms 'common defence and general welfare'" do not give "to Congress a general power of legislation instead of the defined and limited one hitherto understood to belong to them." n25

In The Federalist No. 45, Madison wrote that the federal government's powers under the Constitution would be narrowly tailored to mostly external affairs:

"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the Federal Government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State Governments are numerous and indefinite. [p. 551] The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will for the most part be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects, which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties and properties of the people; and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State." n30

 

[rightwinger]

Fuck, It's the Stan and Ollie Show!!!!

Another fine mess the Republicans have gotten us into

 

[Intense]

Fuck, It's the Stan and Ollie Show!!!!

Anothe fine mess the Republicans have gotten us into

Golly Wallie.... What mess is that????? When was the last time the Republicans held the Senate with a 60+ Majority, and the House, and the Presidency????? Talk about hair brained incompetent bullshit????? How much have you compounded the debt????? When in history has so much been spent with nothing to show for it????? DNC Looney Toons returns after the break...

 

[rightwinger]

Fuck, It's the Stan and Ollie Show!!!!

Anothe fine mess the Republicans have gotten us into

Golly Wallie.... What mess is that????? When was the last time the Republicans held the Senate with a 60+ Majority, and the House, and the Presidency????? Talk about hair brained incompetent bullshit????? How much have you compounded the debt????? When in history has so much been spent with nothing to show for it????? DNC Looney Toons returns after the break...

Two wars
crashed housing market
crashed stock market
largest recession in 70 years

 

[JakeStarkey]

And we didn't even need 60 seats in the Senate!

 

[martybegan]

​

No ad hom because the comparison between you and the jihadists is exact. They torture, you admit you approve of torture. Ergo, they hate America, thus you hate America. You are condemned by your own words, Marty. Slink off, slime.

So because I support the goverments limited use of coercive interrogation after it is approved at the highest level on select persons who a known terrorists it puts me in the same class as people who would use it merely to get thier rocks off, and to influnce public opinion?

That is called agrumentum ad absurdium, carrying a logical conclusion to an untruthful extreme and is one of the more lazy logical fallacies. Keep trying.

I love when people have to get all mean, it means they cant counter my aruments rationally and have to resort to name calling.

 

[martybegan]

What a childish reply...

We are the United States of America. We do not sink to the depravity of the "other guy". If we catch them we try them in a court of law and provide all the protections provided by civilized nations.

What is childish about it? Again, you dont like it, so it HAS to be illegal. No one has refuted ANY of my points.

Your point is if the bad guys do it, we get to do it. Your thinking is that of a stooge.

No, it has nothing to do with if the bad guys do it, we get to do it. I has to do if the bad guys break the general laws of welfare and warfare then they loose the protections given by treaties covering those conditions. Its not tit for tat. Once they loose those protections any rights given are at our sufference only.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Marty believes that rightous condemnation of his justification of criminal stance is ad hom and somehow excuses him? No, jihadists do not lose the protections of the law of war at all, marty, when they break them. That is not the law, although you can post the evidence if you think you have it. Jihadists, and you if you do it, are taken by the laws of war, treated accordingly by the laws of war, tried by the laws of war, and, if guilty, executed by the laws of war.

Thank heavens for the UCMJ that would condemn and prosecute and punish you if you did such things to those taken prisoner.

 

[rightwinger]

What is childish about it? Again, you dont like it, so it HAS to be illegal. No one has refuted ANY of my points.

Your point is if the bad guys do it, we get to do it. Your thinking is that of a stooge.

No, it has nothing to do with if the bad guys do it, we get to do it. I has to do if the bad guys break the general laws of welfare and warfare then they loose the protections given by treaties covering those conditions. Its not tit for tat. Once they loose those protections any rights given are at our sufference only.

No... a civilized society affords even the most heinous criminal basic human rights

 

[Intense]

Anothe fine mess the Republicans have gotten us into

Golly Wallie.... What mess is that????? When was the last time the Republicans held the Senate with a 60+ Majority, and the House, and the Presidency????? Talk about hair brained incompetent bullshit????? How much have you compounded the debt????? When in history has so much been spent with nothing to show for it????? DNC Looney Toons returns after the break...

Two wars

I am so sorry we just didn't surrender and roll over fast enough for you after being attacked on 911. Maybe we should just go Sharia Compliant , huh.... Dick Head!

crashed housing market

Who manipulated Gas Prices for half a year before housing fell?????

crashed stock market

Still goes back to the corruption of HUD, Fannie, and Freddie.

largest recession in 70 years

Compounded damage with every flawed remedy you apply, with nothing to show for it. You multiply the damage and blame it on the past. Every move you make digs us in deeper.

 

[Intense]

Your point is if the bad guys do it, we get to do it. Your thinking is that of a stooge.

No, it has nothing to do with if the bad guys do it, we get to do it. I has to do if the bad guys break the general laws of welfare and warfare then they loose the protections given by treaties covering those conditions. Its not tit for tat. Once they loose those protections any rights given are at our sufference only.

No... a civilized society affords even the most heinous criminal basic human rights

Not necessarily in War, not at the expense of being bankrupted either. Maybe we should just shoot Illegal Combatant's on sight. "Wanted Dead Or Alive"!

 

[Samson]

... a civilized society affords even the most heinous criminal basic human rights

Like, who?

***This might make a nice thread***

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...-criminal-basic-human-rights.html#post2970295

 

[CMike]

We waterboarded only 3 arch terrorists. The results were the stopping of major terrorist attacks that saved thousands of american lives.

These terrorist attacks included flying a plane into a LA plane and building and detonating a "dirty bomb" in Washington D.C.

Also about half the intelligence on Al Qaida came as a result of the waterboarding.

It was well worth it

 

[JakeStarkey]

Those justifications are made by the justifiers. Let's see absolute credible evidence all of that is so. And, please, don't say "Because Bush or Cheney or Rumsfeld says so." That does not fly.

 

[Intense]

Those justifications are made by the justifiers. Let's see absolute credible evidence all of that is so. And, please, don't say "Because Bush or Cheney or Rumsfeld says so." That does not fly.

Neither does leaking Top Secret Classified Information, or doing nothing about it.

 

[Samson]

Those justifications are made by the justifiers. .

Yeah, I prefer decisions to be made with no justification what-so-ever.

Or

Justifications to be made by those who really have no fucking clue what happened.

 

[CMike]

Those justifications are made by the justifiers. Let's see absolute credible evidence all of that is so. And, please, don't say "Because Bush or Cheney or Rumsfeld says so." That does not fly.

We did this before numerous times.

The declassified CIA memo was released by Obama.

CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles | CNSnews.com



Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”

According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the “Second Wave”-- planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”
KSM was the mastermind of the first “hijacked-airliner” attacks on the United States, which struck the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Northern Virginia on Sept. 11, 2001.

After KSM was captured by the United States, he was not initially cooperative with CIA interrogators. Nor was another top al Qaeda leader named Zubaydah. KSM, Zubaydah, and a third terrorist named Nashiri were the only three persons ever subjected to waterboarding by the CIA. (Additional terrorist detainees were subjected to other “enhanced techniques” that included slapping, sleep deprivation, dietary limitations, and temporary confinement to small spaces -- but not to water-boarding.)


This was because the CIA imposed very tight restrictions on the use of waterboarding. “The ‘waterboard,’ which is the most intense of the CIA interrogation techniques, is subject to additional limits,” explained the May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo. “It may be used on a High Value Detainee only if the CIA has ‘credible intelligence that a terrorist attack is imminent’; ‘substantial and credible indicators that the subject has actionable intelligence that can prevent, disrupt or deny this attack’; and ‘[o]ther interrogation methods have failed to elicit this information within the perceived time limit for preventing the attack.’”

The quotations in this part of the Justice memo were taken from an Aug. 2, 2004 letter that CIA Acting General Counsel John A. Rizzo sent to the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel.

Before they were subjected to “enhanced techniques” of interrogation that included waterboarding, KSM and Zubaydah were not only uncooperative but also appeared contemptuous of the will of the American people to defend themselves.

“In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including KSM and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques,” says the Justice Department memo. “Both KSM and Zubaydah had ‘expressed their belief that the general US population was ‘weak,’ lacked resilience, and would be unable to ‘do what was necessary’ to prevent the terrorists from succeeding in their goals.’ Indeed, before the CIA used enhanced techniques in its interrogation of KSM, KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, ‘Soon you will know.’”

After he was subjected to the “waterboard” technique, KSM became cooperative, providing intelligence that led to the capture of key al Qaeda allies and, eventually, the closing down of an East Asian terrorist cell that had been tasked with carrying out the 9/11-style attack on Los Angeles.

The May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that details what happened in this regard was written by then-Principal Deputy Attorney General Steven G. Bradbury to John A. Rizzo, the senior deputy general counsel for the CIA.

“You have informed us that the interrogation of KSM—once enhanced techniques were employed—led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the ‘Second Wave,’ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles,” says the memo.

“You have informed us that information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discover of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemaah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the ‘Second Wave,’” reads the memo. “More specifically, we understand that KSM admitted that he had [redaction] large sum of money to an al Qaeda associate [redaction] … Khan subsequently identified the associate (Zubair), who was then captured. Zubair, in turn, provided information that led to the arrest of Hambali. The information acquired from these captures allowed CIA interrogators to pose more specific questions to KSM, which led the CIA to Hambali’s brother, al Hadi. Using information obtained from multiple sources, al-Hadi was captured, and he subsequently identified the Garuba cell. With the aid of this additional information, interrogations of Hambali confirmed much of what was learned from KSM.”

 

[JakeStarkey]

I have problems with classified information being leaked. But what does one do, Intense, when the government is lying to you (Pentagon Papers) or the President is lying to you (Mark Felt then tattles on Nixon) or our government is lying to you again (wikileaks).

None of that, however, excuses torture. I am very troubled the CIA torturers and those who authorized that as well as the shipping of prisoners to countries to be tortured are never going to be tried and humiliated in front of the entire world. Whatever our "guys" were doing, it was not associated with what is considered the best of being American.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Those justifications are made by the justifiers. .

Yeah, I prefer decisions to be made with no justification what-so-ever.

Or

Justifications to be made by those who really have no fucking clue what happened.

Describing yourself, Samson?

 

[Samson]

Those justifications are made by the justifiers. .

Yeah, I prefer decisions to be made with no justification what-so-ever.

Or

Justifications to be made by those who really have no fucking clue what happened.

Describing yourself, Samson?

Sorry, we're still not taking any long, warm showers together, Jakey