Debate Now CALIFORNIA: San Francisco board open to reparations with $5M payouts

[Circe]

The main rules for the debate/discussion of "CALIFORNIA: San Francisco board open to reparations with $5M payouts" are as follows:

1. PLEASE REFRAIN from posting if you cannot do so in a civil manner. No name calling, nasty or baiting comments​

2. Any comment(s) made must further the topic of the Debate or be in response to a valid comment(s) made by another member (see Rule 1). Comment only on the topic or content, not​

on another member.​

2. Feel free to disagree with anything stated or the position of any other poser however If you state something as fact, please cite your source and/or be able to provide it, if asked .​

The general rules for the Structured Debate Forum are as follows:

Debate Now - Structured Discussion Forum

• Site wide rules apply.
• Zone 2 rules apply. (thread title and opening post, keep it reasonably civil or risk thread being moved)
• The OP (original poster) must be written out and in your own words i.e. NO copy/paste or simple links.
• The OP will clearly state what additional rules (3 or less) will apply to the discussion. The maximum total of three (3) rules MUST be adhered to at all times. Such rules might request that no partisan labels such as Democrat, GOP, liberal, conservative, etc. be used. Or that no specific religion be mentioned. Or no specific person can be named. Or that the discussion is limited to a specific person, document, event, group, etc. Civil or uncivil, whatever the rules will be up to the OP.
• Members participating in this forum will be expected to follow the rules specified in the OP at all times. NO EXCEPTIONS.
• It is recommended that any rules specified in the OP be simple, easy to understand, kept to a reasonable minimum, and that they make sense. (If rules are too broad, vague, complicated, restrictive, or numerous, it will be impossible to moderate their intent and purpose.)

--========================================================================================================================--
In my opinion, reparations paid by our government(s) are proper and should be paid sooner rather than later.

I wince every time I see the word slavery used in a discussion regarding reparations. As has been pointed out, hardly anyone who lived under slavery is still alive today however Black people in America have not just been viewed as second class citizens, racially discriminatory practices, policies, laws, practices, societal more and actual laws were legislated and put in place in order to perpetuate this status.

A whole new set of laws called Black Codes along with the implementation of the infamous "Jim Crow" which was the collective set of laws and legal racial discrimination that was created and passed whose only purpose was to oppress and criminalize Black lives and ultimately return as many freed slaves back into captivity as possible. This scheme was known as "convict leasing" and was implemented in order to create a new free labor pool to replace the free labor lost by the abolishment of slavery.

Another scheme used which is currently outlawed in the United States was peonage. Black people could be jailed, convicted and farmed out under the convict leasing program simply on the accusation of a white person during a time when a Black person, slave or free, had no standing (could not legally) to accuse, sue or testify against a white person. It should also be noted that until the practice of convict leasing began, the jails and penitentiaries were predominantly white.

Because our government created the racially discriminatory laws, enforced said laws against Black people and most often refused to enforce the law when whites committed crimes of fraud and/or violence against Black people, our government would be the proper party to pay reparations and reparations should be paid.

Slavery was only the beginning of the horrific and heinous human rights violations against people of African descent and it's only been since the passage of the Civil Rights Act in 1964 that racial segregation became unlawful in all 50 states yet we still see acts of aggression, hatred and violence carried out against Black, people irrespective of any laws that are currently in place.

Although I don't expect to see reparations actually become a reality during my lifetime, they should be paid.

You sure have a whole lot of rules.

 

[rightwinger]

Did the reparations paid to Japanese Americans do anything to repair Social Injustice? Why or why not?

Yes, because you specifically paid those who were incarcerated not their great grandchildren

 

[IM2]

I don't know if you know this or not but the rioters robbed the black banks and although I believe this happened before the FDIC guarantees, the insurance company refused to pay a single claim of the Black business owners.

So the racist white mob stole the account holders money, the account holders were not reimbursed for their losses by the banks, the Black property owners who paid premiums to insure against losses had their claims denied, every single one of them. And to add further insult to injury, not a single white person was every held accountable for their crimes of those nights , yet the Black victims were the only parties charged with crimes, had curfews imposed upon them and eventually were restricted to internment camps:

The Aftermath​

The Internment​

By the end of the day, the internment camps held 6,000 African American residents. The next day, authorities moved them to the fairgrounds. The National Guard forced these prisoners, both men and women, to labor. The mayor threatened to arrest anyone refusing work for vagrancy. Authorities required them to clean up the destruction caused by the white rioters. The length of stay varied for most of those imprisoned. Release depended on white employers vouching for their African American workers. After that the city issued passes, called green cards, for them to carry to show their employment. By the middle of June, the camps closed.​

The Aftermath | Oklahoma Historical Society​

​

All but a handful of the Black victims of that event have since passed away and I can't help but feel that the inaction taken by law enforcement who had jurisdiction over the area was intentional in the hope that if they could only drag this out long enough that eventually anyone who could ledge a complaint or file a claim against any of the guilty parties, including the law enforcement/government agencies, would eventually all be dead, therefore any damages won or reparations should go to their descendants because this was truly a horrific and heinous act perpetrator against the most affluent Black community in the United States for no reason other than financial and social envy.

The Tulsa Race Riot Massacre was not the only act of violence of this nature against a Black community but it certainly is one of the most well known and damaging one therefore in that respect it is not unique.

Reparations in this instances and those like it would be proper.

Another story not told was how shortly after slavery whites who were punt in charge of the Freedman's Bank basically robbed the newly freed slaves of over 60 million dollars in todays money by using their deposits on risky speculation they would not have done with white depositors money.

 

[IM2]

Yes, because you specifically paid those who were incarcerated not their great grandchildren

The problem with your position is that evidence shows that racism today is robbing blacks of trillions. So this is not about great grandchildren. Furthermore, Native Americans have received reparations for things that happened in the 1800's. Cobell v. Salazar was settled in 2009 for damages caused due to things that started with the Dawes Act of 1887. So can we please stop trying that argument?

 

[JoeB131]

Another story not told was how shortly after slavery whites who were punt in charge of the Freedman's Bank basically robbed the newly freed slaves of over 60 million dollars in todays money by using their deposits on risky speculation they would not have done with white depositors money.

You're kidding, right? banks lost white people's money all the time in that era. Read about the Panic of 1837 or the Panic of 1857 or the Panic of 1893. In fact, this nonsense continued until FDR established the FDIC and FSLIC .

What is it about you that you only see American History as "Bad stuff done to black people"? Lots of bad stuff happened to most white people, too. We're just not still whining about it.

The problem with your position is that evidence shows that racism today is robbing blacks of trillions. So this is not about great grandchildren. Furthermore, Native Americans have received reparations for things that happened in the 1800's. Cobell v. Salazar was settled in 2009 for damages caused due to things that started with the Dawes Act of 1887. So can we please stop trying that argument?

Actually, at the risk of sounding like Lisa, most of the problems are self-inflicted. The reason why there is limited economic growth in Harlem, the West Side, or Watts is because no one in his right mind would set up a business there.

 

[IM2]

All we can possibly say about all this is that, if we accept the reasoning for giving money to groups that suffered institutional discrimination, the first in line is women.

The Omaha Race Riot occurred on September 28–29, 1919. Three conditions: black property acquisition, economic anxiety, and black male sexual aggression claims have been the standard for white violence against blacks throughout American history. The Omaha Riots met at least 2 of the three conditions. The eventual lynching of Will Brown began with reports in local media about the alleged rape of a white woman on September 25, 1919. The following day, the police arrested Brown. Brown was accused of the crime without the victim making an identification. There was an attempt to lynch Brown on the day of his arrest, but it failed.

The Omaha Bee publicized the incident claiming it was part of a series of alleged attacks on white women by black men in Omaha. The Bee was owned by Edward Rosewater, a friend of a man named Thomas Dennison. Dennison ran a political machine that controlled Omaha. To be blunt, Dennison was a crook. He ruled Omaha for 18 years before the city elected someone not directed by Dennison as mayor named Edward Smith. The election of Smith angered Dennison.

To make Smith look bad, Dennisons men ran wildly throughout the town wearing blackface, assaulting white women and blaming blacks for it. Dennison orchestrated the incidents while Rosewaters paper pumped up the fake news. Thanks to his buddy at the Omaha Bee, the Dennison gang race baited the people of Omaha and incited the Omaha Riots. On the night of the lynching, Omaha Police even caught one of Dennison’s men on the street in blackface. No one was charged or convicted for what happened. Will Brown was not so fortunate. Brown was lynched, shot up after he was dead, dragged through the streets of Omaha, and set on fire. He had committed no crime.

Now keep laughing.

 

[there4eyeM]

The Omaha Race Riot occurred on September 28–29, 1919. Three conditions: black property acquisition, economic anxiety, and black male sexual aggression claims have been the standard for white violence against blacks throughout American history. The Omaha Riots met at least 2 of the three conditions. The eventual lynching of Will Brown began with reports in local media about the alleged rape of a white woman on September 25, 1919. The following day, the police arrested Brown. Brown was accused of the crime without the victim making an identification. There was an attempt to lynch Brown on the day of his arrest, but it failed.

The Omaha Bee publicized the incident claiming it was part of a series of alleged attacks on white women by black men in Omaha. The Bee was owned by Edward Rosewater, a friend of a man named Thomas Dennison. Dennison ran a political machine that controlled Omaha. To be blunt, Dennison was a crook. He ruled Omaha for 18 years before the city elected someone not directed by Dennison as mayor named Edward Smith. The election of Smith angered Dennison.

To make Smith look bad, Dennisons men ran wildly throughout the town wearing blackface, assaulting white women and blaming blacks for it. Dennison orchestrated the incidents while Rosewaters paper pumped up the fake news. Thanks to his buddy at the Omaha Bee, the Dennison gang race baited the people of Omaha and incited the Omaha Riots. On the night of the lynching, Omaha Police even caught one of Dennison’s men on the street in blackface. No one was charged or convicted for what happened. Will Brown was not so fortunate. Brown was lynched, shot up after he was dead, dragged through the streets of Omaha, and set on fire. He had committed no crime.

Now keep laughing.

I am certainly not laughing at any group of people nor denying suffering. The current trend of talking up compensation for slavery is, nonetheless, totally ridiculous and out of the question.

 

[Ms. Turquoise]

Actually, the conditions the Chinese Coolie laborers suffered were barely above slavery.



1) Because the people getting the reparations weren't the ones who suffered. Those people are all dead.
2) Because we've already chucked 22 TRILLION into the ghettos since 1964, and that hasn't made things better
3) Why should I have to pay reparations? I've never owned a slave, never made anyone ride on the back of the bus, and never denied anyone a job.

You also never forced Native Americans onto reservations or interned the Japanese during WW2. But your tax money went to help pay their reparations.

 

[JoeB131]

You also never forced Native Americans onto reservations or interned the Japanese during WW2. But your tax money went to help pay their reparations.

And I think those are terrible ideas, too.

The Reservation system is what Black people need to avoid, permanent government dependence. I guess it's not a big deal now, because those reservations are now supported by legal gambling, except the people who live there are still poor and dependent, because they never learned to be anything else.

As for the Japanese Americans, the money they got was symbolic and only went to the people who actually suffered the wrong.

Since there are NO living slaves, we can do that.

Final point, as stated, between 1964 and 2014, the US Government has dumped 22 Trillion dollars into the slums of this nation. So I'd say reparations have been paid.

Now let's try something that actually works.

 

[Ms. Turquoise]

And I think those are terrible ideas, too.

The Reservation system is what Black people need to avoid, permanent government dependence. I guess it's not a big deal now, because those reservations are now supported by legal gambling, except the people who live there are still poor and dependent, because they never learned to be anything else.

As for the Japanese Americans, the money they got was symbolic and only went to the people who actually suffered the wrong.

Since there are NO living slaves, we can do that.

Final point, as stated, between 1964 and 2014, the US Government has dumped 22 Trillion dollars into the slums of this nation. So I'd say reparations have been paid.

Now let's try something that actually works.

OK. Let's try something that actually works. Give every African-American who had enslaved African ancestors reparations. See how easy that was.
P.S. The trillions spent on welfare, etc. would have been unecessary if African-Americans hadn't been held back by slavery and Jim Crow laws. So, that money doesn't count.

 

[JoeB131]

OK. Let's try something that actually works. Give every African-American who had enslaved African ancestors reparations. See how easy that was.

We did that. It was called "The Great Society". It made matters much, much, much worse. If you subsidize bad behavior, you get more bad behavior.

P.S. The trillions spent on welfare, etc. would have been unecessary if African-Americans hadn't been held back by slavery and Jim Crow laws. So, that money doesn't count.

It was spent. It made matters worse. Let's not throw good money after bad.

The biggest problem with welfare is that it's offered without shame. You should be embarrassed to be dependent on government.

 

[Ms. Turquoise]

We did that. It was called "The Great Society". It made matters much, much, much worse. If you subsidize bad behavior, you get more bad behavior.



It was spent. It made matters worse. Let's not throw good money after bad.

The biggest problem with welfare is that it's offered without shame. You should be embarrassed to be dependent on government.

Tell the big banks that!

 

[JoeB131]

Tell the big banks that!

Um, if it were left up to me, every Bankster in 2008 would have been charged with fraud and sent to big-boy prison with the gangbangers.

Not sure what your point is here, exactly. When the banking industry works well, it provides prosperity and opportunity. When it doesn't we have problems. But every once in a while, we forget these people need to be watched

But continuing to pour money into the slums and trailer parks for the worst kind of behavior is... crazy.

 

[LibertyKid]

Um, if it were left up to me, every Bankster in 2008 would have been charged with fraud and sent to big-boy prison with the gangbangers.

Not sure what your point is here, exactly. When the banking industry works well, it provides prosperity and opportunity. When it doesn't we have problems. But every once in a while, we forget these people need to be watched

But continuing to pour money into the slums and trailer parks for the worst kind of behavior is... crazy.

Verbal response zingers aren't fun... are they? It means they have nothing logical to provide.
Joe, you're a different person in this thread LOL.

You're right on so many fronts. Black Americans and White Trash Americans have every opportunity to succeed. They live in the greatest country of opportunity. Yet, why do Blacks only point out the lack of opportunity 100 years ago for why they are in the position they are in today.

The youtube clip below is spot on:
A. black Youtuber responding to a panel clip. Think what you will of Ben Shapiro, but he's absolutely correct.

 

[JohnDB]

Watch this video about the truth about slavery and Reparations. The focus is on France...but the truth is similar in nature.

 

[MizMolly]

Let's look at what California actually found instead of repeating the same stale comments.

View attachment 766811
From colonial times forward, governments at all levels adopted and enshrined white supremacy beliefs and passed laws in order to maintain slavery, a system of dehumanization and exploitation that stole the life, labor, liberty, and intellect of people of African descent. This system was maintained by, and financially benefited, the entire United States of America and its territories.

• This system of white supremacy is a persistent badge of slavery that continues to be embedded today in numerous American and Californian legal, economic, and social and political systems. Throughout American history and across the entire country, laws and policies, violence and terror have upheld white supremacy. All over the country, but particularly in the South during the era of legal segregation, federal state and local governments directly engaged in, supported, or failed to protect African Americans from the violence and terror aiming to subjugate African Americans.

• Government actions and derelictions of duty have caused compounding physical and psychological injury for generations. In California, racial violence against African Americans began during slavery, continued through the 1920s, as groups like the Ku Klux Klan permeated local governments and police departments, and peaked after World War II, as African Americans attempted to move into white neighborhoods.

• After the Civil War, African Americans briefly won political power during Reconstruction. Southern states responded by systematically stripping African Americans of their power to vote. Racist lawmakers elected from southern states blocked hundreds of federal civil rights laws and edited other important legislation to exclude or discriminate against African Americans. These coordinated efforts at the federal level harmed Black Californians, particularly when coupled with discrimination at the state and local levels.

• Government actors, working with private individuals, actively segregated America into Black and white neighborhoods. In California, federal, state, and local governments created segregation through discriminatory federal housing policies, zoning ordinances, decisions on where to build schools, and discriminatory federal mortgage policies known as redlining. Funded by the federal government, the California state and local government also destroyed Black homes and communities through park and highway construction, urban renewal and by other means.

Due to residential segregation and compared to white Americans, African Americans are more likely to live in worse quality housing and in neighborhoods that are polluted, with inadequate infrastructure. Black Californians face similar harms.

• Government financial assistance programs and policies have historically excluded African Americans from receiving benefits.

• The current child welfare system in the country and in California, operates on harmful and untrue racial stereotypes of African Americans. This has resulted in extremely high rates of removal of Black children from their families, even though Black parents do not generally mistreat their children at higher rates than white parents. Black children thus disproportionately suffer the loss of their families and the additional harms associated with being in the child welfare system.

• Federal and state governments, including California, failed to protect Black artists, culture-makers, and media-makers from discrimination and simultaneously promoted discriminatory narratives. State governments memorialized the Confederacy as just and heroic through monument building, while suppressing the nation’s history of racism and slavery.

Federal, state, and local government actions, including in California, have directly segregated and discriminated against African Americans at work. Federal and state policies like affirmative action produced mixed results and were short lived. African Americans continue to face employment discrimination today in the country and in California.

• American government at all levels, including in California, has historically criminalized African Americans for the purposes of social control, and to maintain an economy based on exploited Black labor. This criminalization is an enduring badge of slavery and has contributed to the over-policing of Black neighborhoods, the school to prison pipeline, the mass incarceration of African Americans, a refusal to accept African Americans as victims, and other inequities in nearly every corner of the American and California legal systems. As a result, the American and California criminal justice system physically harms, imprisons, and kills African Americans more than other racial groups relative to their percentage of the population.

Federal, state, and local government actions, including in California, have directly segregated and discriminated against African Americans at work. Federal and state policies like affirmative action produced mixed results and were short lived. African Americans continue to face employment discrimination today in the country and in California.

• American government at all levels, including in California, has historically criminalized African Americans for the purposes of social control, and to maintain an economy based on exploited Black labor. This criminalization is an enduring badge of slavery and has contributed to the over-policing of Black neighborhoods, the school to prison pipeline, the mass incarceration of African Americans, a refusal to accept African Americans as victims, and other inequities in nearly every corner of the American and California legal systems. As a result, the American and California criminal justice system physically harms, imprisons, and kills African Americans more than other racial groups relative to their percentage of the population.

https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/media/ab3121-interim-report-key-findings-2022.pdf

The OP said don’t cut and paste

 

[JoeB131]

Verbal response zingers aren't fun... are they? It means they have nothing logical to provide.
Joe, you're a different person in this thread LOL.

You're right on so many fronts. Black Americans and White Trash Americans have every opportunity to succeed. They live in the greatest country of opportunity. Yet, why do Blacks only point out the lack of opportunity 100 years ago for why they are in the position they are in today.

I'm not different at all. I challenge the left when it's wrong... I challenge the right when it's wrong. I am a dispenser of unpleasant truths.

America is not a land of opportunity, it's a land where if you are lucky enough to be born well off, you can do well. If you are born in the wrong circumstances, not so much.

In some ways, blacks are worse off, because a lot of entry level menial jobs they could have used to get the proverbial foot in the door in the 1920's don't exist now. Jobs like elevator operator or bellboy don't exist now.

 

[LibertyKid]

I'm not different at all. I challenge the left when it's wrong... I challenge the right when it's wrong. I am a dispenser of unpleasant truths.

America is not a land of opportunity, it's a land where if you are lucky enough to be born well off, you can do well. If you are born in the wrong circumstances, not so much.

And I've seen many born "well off" squander opportunities, education, life lessons. It's all personal choices.
But, nurture does play into it. I can show you white trailer trash that breed, white trailer trash. Certain side of my family is the poster child of white trash.
We can see urban families breed the urban-ghetto families.

The question is how do we get those families to break that generational culture that is non-productive to society, yet blames everyone else for their situation.
This is just an observation, but one thing I don't see is the white trash sub-culture blaming anyone else for their position in life. No matter how much they breed into that culture, I don't see them blaming anyone else. I could be wrong, but I have not seen that documented.

In some ways, blacks are worse off, because a lot of entry level menial jobs they could have used to get the proverbial foot in the door in the 1920's don't exist now. Jobs like elevator operator or bellboy don't exist now.

There are plenty of service jobs out there. But they are not meant to be "careers". I think we agree on that. When we were younger, jobs like McDs was meant for high school and college kids and some seniors looking for something to do. Today the narrative is that every job should provide a "livable wage". That's the wrong approach. If you don't like your job, you're free to move on. If you don't like your pay, move on. But pay has always been based on; skill, education and experience. Today, the narrative is, I exist so give me what I deserve.

 

[JoeB131]

There are plenty of service jobs out there. But they are not meant to be "careers". I think we agree on that. When we were younger, jobs like McDs was meant for high school and college kids and some seniors looking for something to do. Today the narrative is that every job should provide a "livable wage". That's the wrong approach. If you don't like your job, you're free to move on. If you don't like your pay, move on. But pay has always been based on; skill, education and experience. Today, the narrative is, I exist so give me what I deserve.

Here's the problem. The unskilled service job could still pay a decent wage back in the day. enough to put a roof over your head and food on the table, and frankly, for some people, that's enough.

But today, we have kids who go to college for four years, end up hundreds of thousands in debt, and then find they can never dig their way out. They delay having kids, which just compounds the problem.

 

[AZrailwhale]

They tried in 1865, but whites have continued racism until 2023. So your long post full of excuses has no merit.

WHITES did in 1865. Of course that’s if I agree with your premise which I don’t. Forty acres and a mule is a myth based upon a very local program by ONE US general and the ex-slave wasn’t given the mule, it was Army property LOANED to the ex-slave. Post-war a lot of slaves were actually given land from broken up plantations and Indian Reservations, but couldn’t successfully farm it.