Can someone explain what has happened to the GOP?

[LoneLaugher]

They should have shut down the damn government until some meaningful spending cuts were put in place.

The stupid response I expected

You should always expect stupid responses. Easier for you to understand.

That is why you guys are not taken seriously.
Your shut down government solutions do nothing to help your cause. Extortion is not a solution

Then explain the historic wins in 2014 by the R's. I can't wait.

Let me give the left wing answer. The majority of the democrat voters are too lazy or too stupid to show up for mid-term elections. What I have a hard time explaining is the 2008 election and especially the 2012 election, it is like we didn't learn a thing in 4 years. Now we are paying the price.

For which party were more votes cast in the 2014 mid term elections?

The answer will not cause you to smile.

 

[candycorn]

He's threatening tariffs.

No one will laugh at him.

Not when he controls access to the world's largest market and is willing to use that power.

Congress? YOu mean the dems will refuse to work with him?

Tariffs are a double edged sword....can hurt us more than they help us

They seem to be a popular tool with those who believe the US can still be isolationist

You don't laugh at people swinging around a double edged sword.

No one will be laughing.

They will be sweating bullets.

And the deals we cut will be more in our interests than what we have now.

A very low bar, I admit.

I know you despise the current administration so I will ask you this: why do you think GWB or GHWB or RR didn't swing the "double edged sword"? I mean, it wasn't political...the Chinese or Japanese do not vote.

I would like to hear your reasoning for why you think previous Republican administrations were "pussies"

Ideology.

Blind Faith in the Ideological concept of Free Trade.

Under RR it seemed to be working pretty good. Macro numbers were good.

The more "nuanced" effect on the Middle Class was less obvious for a while.


When Ideology and REality conflict REality must Trump Ideology.

<see what I did there?>

GWB had "blind faith" in free trade?

Okay....

Yes. Blind Faith in Free Trade is the Conventional Wisdom currently.

And Free Trade has long been part of the Conservative Ideology.[/QUOTE]

I would explain to you that the reason trade is important is because the US markets are saturated but you seem to think otherwise.

The reason the former administrations are not "kicking ass" is because their hands are tied by our businesses needing those markets and the government of those markets owning a large portion of our debt. This was one reason why the best place to be selling US made goods from the standpoint of sustainable growth is in the developing nations. And geometrically why foreign aid to those nations is crucial. But that gets into the weeds and it may distract you from the jugglers and clowns of Mr. Trump's roadshow.

You said "you don't care about specifics". Well, those are the details Mr. Trump will not bring up (debt and access to their markets). Reciting the size of our economy and our market is not going to change those bedrock factors that every President has had to deal with in recent memory.

Blind faith had nothing to do with it.

 

[auditor0007]

Trump has not negotiated with foreign nations. His tactics will be laughed at in the international community who is not enthralled with the Trump name

THe media hasn't been enthralled by the Trump name and he has been 5 steps ahead of them the whole time.

Trump will do fine. And he will be negotiating from a position of strength.

No one is going to laugh at the US.

They laughed at Bush when he tried the " my way or the highway" tactics

I doubt the world will take Trump seriously.....or congress for that matter

He's threatening tariffs.

No one will laugh at him.

Not when he controls access to the world's largest market and is willing to use that power.

Congress? YOu mean the dems will refuse to work with him?

Tariffs are a double edged sword....can hurt us more than they help us

They seem to be a popular tool with those who believe the US can still be isolationist

You don't laugh at people swinging around a double edged sword.

No one will be laughing.

They will be sweating bullets.

And the deals we cut will be more in our interests than what we have now.

A very low bar, I admit.

Here's a deal. Auto manufacturers are moving their plants to Mexico in droves, because Mexico has free trade agreements with more countries in the world than any other. Mexico has done just the opposite of what Trump suggests he will do for the US. Do you believe placing more restrictions on trade is going to bring more manufacturing to the US? I'm sorry, but you are sorely mistaken.

 

[Correll]

Tariffs are a double edged sword....can hurt us more than they help us

They seem to be a popular tool with those who believe the US can still be isolationist

You don't laugh at people swinging around a double edged sword.

No one will be laughing.

They will be sweating bullets.

And the deals we cut will be more in our interests than what we have now.

A very low bar, I admit.

I know you despise the current administration so I will ask you this: why do you think GWB or GHWB or RR didn't swing the "double edged sword"? I mean, it wasn't political...the Chinese or Japanese do not vote.

I would like to hear your reasoning for why you think previous Republican administrations were "pussies"

Ideology.

Blind Faith in the Ideological concept of Free Trade.

Under RR it seemed to be working pretty good. Macro numbers were good.

The more "nuanced" effect on the Middle Class was less obvious for a while.


When Ideology and REality conflict REality must Trump Ideology.

<see what I did there?>

GWB had "blind faith" in free trade?

Okay....

Yes. Blind Faith in Free Trade is the Conventional Wisdom currently.

And Free Trade has long been part of the Conservative Ideology.

I would explain to you that the reason trade is important is because the US markets are saturated but you seem to think otherwise.

The reason the former administrations are not "kicking ass" is because their hands are tied by our businesses needing those markets and the government of those markets owning a large portion of our debt. This was one reason why the best place to be selling US made goods from the standpoint of sustainable growth is in the developing nations. And geometrically why foreign aid to those nations is crucial. But that gets into the weeds and it may distract you from the jugglers and clowns of Mr. Trump's roadshow.

You said "you don't care about specifics". Well, those are the details Mr. Trump will not bring up (debt and access to their markets). Reciting the size of our economy and our market is not going to change those bedrock factors that every President has had to deal with in recent memory.

Blind faith had nothing to do with it.[/QUOTE]

Except we are NOT selling US made goods there. NOt nearly as much as they are selling here.

 

[LoneLaugher]

This thread has convinced me that Mac's missed goal in life was to be a professor at some community college. He threw out a question and has been fielding replies as if they are coming from students eager for his approval ever since.

 

[Correll]

THe media hasn't been enthralled by the Trump name and he has been 5 steps ahead of them the whole time.

Trump will do fine. And he will be negotiating from a position of strength.

No one is going to laugh at the US.

They laughed at Bush when he tried the " my way or the highway" tactics

I doubt the world will take Trump seriously.....or congress for that matter

He's threatening tariffs.

No one will laugh at him.

Not when he controls access to the world's largest market and is willing to use that power.

Congress? YOu mean the dems will refuse to work with him?

Tariffs are a double edged sword....can hurt us more than they help us

They seem to be a popular tool with those who believe the US can still be isolationist

You don't laugh at people swinging around a double edged sword.

No one will be laughing.

They will be sweating bullets.

And the deals we cut will be more in our interests than what we have now.

A very low bar, I admit.

Here's a deal. Auto manufacturers are moving their plants to Mexico in droves, because Mexico has free trade agreements with more countries in the world than any other. Mexico has done just the opposite of what Trump suggests he will do for the US. Do you believe placing more restrictions on trade is going to bring more manufacturing to the US? I'm sorry, but you are sorely mistaken.

Really? Or is it because Mexicans are willing to work for far less money?

 

[Correll]

This thread has convinced me that Mac's missed goal in life was to be a professor at some community college. He threw out a question and has been fielding replies as if they are coming from students eager for his approval ever since.

Says the sociopathic asshole.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Your characterizations and assumptions about the GOP candidates and the party overall are way off. It would take too long to address all the erroneous assumptions and distortions in your OP.

That's not going to help your GPA any, young man.

 

[rightwinger]

They laughed at Bush when he tried the " my way or the highway" tactics

I doubt the world will take Trump seriously.....or congress for that matter

He's threatening tariffs.

No one will laugh at him.

Not when he controls access to the world's largest market and is willing to use that power.

Congress? YOu mean the dems will refuse to work with him?

Tariffs are a double edged sword....can hurt us more than they help us

They seem to be a popular tool with those who believe the US can still be isolationist

You don't laugh at people swinging around a double edged sword.

No one will be laughing.

They will be sweating bullets.

And the deals we cut will be more in our interests than what we have now.

A very low bar, I admit.

Trump will not be able to make deals

1. He has no clue on how to negotiate with foreign nations or Congress
2. He will not have the support of Congress

Other nations will have no choice but to negotiate with Trump.

They cannot walk away from trade with the largest market in the world.

Congress? Are you suggesting that dems will not work with the President?

They had a choice on negotiating with Bush and said NO

Trump has no power over them. U.S. is a big dog but does not get to bite everyone

 

[LoneLaugher]

May I say..... Cecilie1200 has....for the first time since I've been here....posted several of her patented nasty rants....... aimed at the right people. I ain't gonna lie. It was kind of hot.

 

[LoneLaugher]

This thread has convinced me that Mac's missed goal in life was to be a professor at some community college. He threw out a question and has been fielding replies as if they are coming from students eager for his approval ever since.

Says the sociopathic asshole.

Do you think your charge that I am a sociopath will stick? You've repeated it many times now.....but nobody seems to be helping you carry that torch. I think it is just another example of you failing. So sad and lonely.

 

[candycorn]

Except we are NOT selling US made goods there. NOt nearly as much as they are selling here.

Alot of that has to do with what is being sold and the make-ups of those companies in Korea and Japan.
Wage pressures are a big concern of course and legacy costs of former employees. "Wages are too high" sound good to you? Ford has to worry about shareholders and it's stock value
Hyundai doesn't have to worry so much about that. Neither does Honda or Toyota. So to placate Wall Street, Ford has to make more profit each successive quarter or they find their stock plummet and their bond rating downgraded. It's the dirty little secret of the market economies...you're not allowed to play the "long game".

Anyway, what it boils down to is that in automobiles, we have trouble competing because of the built-in costs of producing product . America is becoming more competitive as businesses get away from the pension model and pensioner's numbers are flattening out.

On cheaper goods, again, wage pressures are not helping competition.

Is the field 100% level?
No. But even If it were 100% level, those factors would still be there.

And of course, what isn't being shared by Mr Trump is that the CEOs of these companies (who almost all have the same pressures from Wall Street to always be more profitable) are going to have to ignore the other benefits of manufacturing in Singapore instead of Seattle....environmental laws, wage and labor standards, and the simple inertia of "that is what we've always done". Apple has something like $100B in cash. You think they are itching to change their business model?

 

[candycorn]

May I say..... Cecilie1200 has....for the first time since I've been here....posted several of her patented nasty rants....... aimed at the right people. I ain't gonna lie. It was kind of hot.

Well, I didn't want to tell anyone but Missourian pegged us. She is scared of Trump too. Her, Oreo, Grumps, Me....we all want Jeb or nobody....

 

[Correll]

Except we are NOT selling US made goods there. NOt nearly as much as they are selling here.

Alot of that has to do with what is being sold and the make-ups of those companies in Korea and Japan.
Wage pressures are a big concern of course and legacy costs of former employees. "Wages are too high" sound good to you? Ford has to worry about shareholders and it's stock value
Hyundai doesn't have to worry so much about that. Neither does Honda or Toyota. So to placate Wall Street, Ford has to make more profit each successive quarter or they find their stock plummet and their bond rating downgraded. It's the dirty little secret of the market economies...you're not allowed to play the "long game".

Anyway, what it boils down to is that in automobiles, we have trouble competing because of the built-in costs of producing product . America is becoming more competitive as businesses get away from the pension model and pensioner's numbers are flattening out.

On cheaper goods, again, wage pressures are not helping competition.

Is the field 100% level?
No. But even If it were 100% level, those factors would still be there.

And of course, what isn't being shared by Mr Trump is that the CEOs of these companies (who almost all have the same pressures from Wall Street to always be more profitable) are going to have to ignore the other benefits of manufacturing in Singapore instead of Seattle....environmental laws, wage and labor standards, and the simple inertia of "that is what we've always done". Apple has something like $100B in cash. You think they are itching to change their business model?

Regardless of the reasons if we are NOT selling there, then that invalidates your previously stated reason, ie sustainable growth.

How long with the current model do you expect wage stagnation and shrinkage of the Middle Class to continue?

 

[Freewill]

The stupid response I expected

You should always expect stupid responses. Easier for you to understand.

That is why you guys are not taken seriously.
Your shut down government solutions do nothing to help your cause. Extortion is not a solution

Then explain the historic wins in 2014 by the R's. I can't wait.

Let me give the left wing answer. The majority of the democrat voters are too lazy or too stupid to show up for mid-term elections. What I have a hard time explaining is the 2008 election and especially the 2012 election, it is like we didn't learn a thing in 4 years. Now we are paying the price.

For which party were more votes cast in the 2014 mid term elections?

The answer will not cause you to smile.

If the answer is democrat then doesn't that kinda blow the meme that it is voter turn out that caused the democrats to be crushed?

I was going to start a thread on "what happened to the once great democrat party." Then i realized, the democrat party was never great. (spelling intentional.)

 

[LoneLaugher]

You should always expect stupid responses. Easier for you to understand.

That is why you guys are not taken seriously.
Your shut down government solutions do nothing to help your cause. Extortion is not a solution

Then explain the historic wins in 2014 by the R's. I can't wait.

Let me give the left wing answer. The majority of the democrat voters are too lazy or too stupid to show up for mid-term elections. What I have a hard time explaining is the 2008 election and especially the 2012 election, it is like we didn't learn a thing in 4 years. Now we are paying the price.

For which party were more votes cast in the 2014 mid term elections?

The answer will not cause you to smile.

If the answer is democrat then doesn't that kinda blow the meme that it is voter turn out that caused the democrats to be crushed?

I was going to start a thread on "what happened to the once great democrat party." Then i realized, the democrat party was never great. (spelling intentional.)

It was Democrat. what does that blow? It blows your dopey laziness claim. Idiot.

Now.....how can that happen? How can more votes get cast for Democrats while the Democrats lose a shitload of races? Do you know?

 

[candycorn]

Except we are NOT selling US made goods there. NOt nearly as much as they are selling here.

Alot of that has to do with what is being sold and the make-ups of those companies in Korea and Japan.
Wage pressures are a big concern of course and legacy costs of former employees. "Wages are too high" sound good to you? Ford has to worry about shareholders and it's stock value
Hyundai doesn't have to worry so much about that. Neither does Honda or Toyota. So to placate Wall Street, Ford has to make more profit each successive quarter or they find their stock plummet and their bond rating downgraded. It's the dirty little secret of the market economies...you're not allowed to play the "long game".

Anyway, what it boils down to is that in automobiles, we have trouble competing because of the built-in costs of producing product . America is becoming more competitive as businesses get away from the pension model and pensioner's numbers are flattening out.

On cheaper goods, again, wage pressures are not helping competition.

Is the field 100% level?
No. But even If it were 100% level, those factors would still be there.

And of course, what isn't being shared by Mr Trump is that the CEOs of these companies (who almost all have the same pressures from Wall Street to always be more profitable) are going to have to ignore the other benefits of manufacturing in Singapore instead of Seattle....environmental laws, wage and labor standards, and the simple inertia of "that is what we've always done". Apple has something like $100B in cash. You think they are itching to change their business model?

Regardless of the reasons if we are NOT selling there, then that invalidates your previously stated reason, ie sustainable growth.

How long with the current model do you expect wage stagnation and shrinkage of the Middle Class to continue?

Those are different topics. Sustainable growth is a phenomenon of investing in developing markets on a governmental level so industry can grow there and IBM can sell them servers and data terminals; Bechtel can design their industrial infrastructure, and Taco Bell and McDonalds can sell the workers lunches.

Domestically, the "model" is to pay as little for labor as possible. With more workers than jobs...I don't see it ending soon. Is that Industry's fault? I don't think so. Is that Government's failure? I don't think so. Is that the fault of the workers? I don't think so. I think its simply a function of an accumulation of automation, immigration, and a paradigm shift (of sorts) to where price is the ONLY consideration for most consumers. Service is terrible and workers are street wise enough to know that they are 100% replaceable and will be replaced at the first sign of difficulty in the market....Wal Mart would rather close 269 stores to show Wall Street they are serious about "portfolio management" than tinker with making the stores more profitable and having a bit of a drag on their SSS.

If you're asking me the way "out" of this...I think education is the silver bullet. You have the Secretary of Education (the guy all GOP candidates want to put out of a job) go on prime time and announce that 60 hours of college credit will be made available to all citizens over 18. The 60 Hours will be paid back over the earnings lifetime of the recipients (more per month for older workers indexed to earnings; less per month for younger workers). The reason SEC-ED is doing it is to explain to the guy flipping burgers at McDonalds that he needs to get some serious training unless he likes flipping burgers. So he could use the 60 hours to learn AC/Heating repair or how to operate a bull dozer or whatever; that he would explain to middle aged workers that they need to expand and try to elevate. Workers can make their decisions to take the training, ignore it, etc...

Maybe it works; maybe it doesn't. Having more guys who know how to turn a wrench or run a cutting torch is a net positive for both them and those who buy their services.

 

[bendog]

As to the OP, a sizeable minority of a smaller minority is sick and tired of America not looking like it did 25 years ago, and scared shiteless that they will not even be able to transfer the wealth their parents did by leaving a house to the kids, and they are pissed off because the gop is telling them to get used to it, so they're voting for a fat angry white guy who gives them simplistic answers.

 

[9thIDdoc]

And maybe explain it without the standard hyperbole and partisan BS. Just some honest, solid analysis. Or maybe provide a link to a piece that someone has written that calmly and reasonably explains it.

I think this "Fox News is the enemy" thing is the final straw with me. I'm now completely lost, and I feel like Sandra Bullock in Gravity, floating away from reality with no way to get back.

To wit:

• The aforementioned darling news network is, overnight, the target of at least as much derision as MSNBC
  
• A bombastic New Yorker who is clearly not a conservative is running away with the nomination
• That same candidate can literally say the most ridiculous things and it only makes his support stronger
  
• Suddenly, nationalism & populism clearly have more energy in the party than "conservative values"
• A nihilistic, "I don't care, just blow the whole thing up" attitude seems to completely permeate the party
  
• The slightest nod toward legislative cooperation is simply no longer allowed in public discourse
• The Establishment, whatever that is, appears to be more hated than any Democrat

It's like half the party has just snapped.

Exactly what is the goal here? And does anyone care if this inter-party schism is healed?
.

Seems to me that you have just acquired some very mistaken ideas about what the average American in general and conservatives in particular value and want. Some people just seem to care more about what the country needs than what party "leaders" want.I'd say that's a good thing.

 

[Mac1958]

And maybe explain it without the standard hyperbole and partisan BS. Just some honest, solid analysis. Or maybe provide a link to a piece that someone has written that calmly and reasonably explains it.

I think this "Fox News is the enemy" thing is the final straw with me. I'm now completely lost, and I feel like Sandra Bullock in Gravity, floating away from reality with no way to get back.

To wit:

• The aforementioned darling news network is, overnight, the target of at least as much derision as MSNBC
  
• A bombastic New Yorker who is clearly not a conservative is running away with the nomination
• That same candidate can literally say the most ridiculous things and it only makes his support stronger
  
• Suddenly, nationalism & populism clearly have more energy in the party than "conservative values"
• A nihilistic, "I don't care, just blow the whole thing up" attitude seems to completely permeate the party
  
• The slightest nod toward legislative cooperation is simply no longer allowed in public discourse
• The Establishment, whatever that is, appears to be more hated than any Democrat

It's like half the party has just snapped.

Exactly what is the goal here? And does anyone care if this inter-party schism is healed?
.

Seems to me that you have just acquired some very mistaken ideas about what the average American in general and conservatives in particular value and want. Some people just seem to care more about what the country needs than what party "leaders" want.I'd say that's a good thing.

So you're convinced, then, that what the conservative wing of the GOP wants is what America wants?
.