Can someone explain what has happened to the GOP?

[candycorn]

That is what happens when the people feel they have been betrayed. Revenge. Apathy. Derision. Hatred. Stubbornness. When the people you elect don't serve your interests, when they promise you the moon... that can only happen so many times before people get fed up with it. You can strike a dog on the nose so many times before he bites your hand. They will go elsewhere for fulfillment.

That goes for anyone else who seems to support those the people feel have betrayed them. You become an object of their wrath. The people feel their legislative interests have been ignored. So compromise is out of the question. Any dealings with the traitorous individuals will be seen as further betrayal, ergo, they see both parties and their supporters as equally repulsive as a result. I know, I've been down that road, and as of right now, that is why I abandoned the Republican party. I have considered rejoining, but this post of yours returned me to reality.

The "inter-party schism" has only been widened because of all of this. Politics is a cancer. It embitters the soul and darkens the heart. It not only divides a party, but an entire nation. Even if people cared enough, this "inter-party schism" will take generations to heal... that, or America, as she is now, won't live to see the day when that happens.

Well put, thanks. I'm struck by a couple of things.

About being "promised the moon" and then being betrayed: What might that be telling us on a macro level? Could it be that these politicians are naive about what power those promises will have when put to the legislative test? Or that they are simply lying to get elected? Personally, I think it's the former. The conservative movement wants it all now. They think they can just jerk the country back to where they want it, but it doesn't work that way. We didn't get to where we are overnight, and we wouldn't go back in the snap of a finger. The conservative movement has to earn its victories, not just blow shit up.

And regarding politics being a cancer. I'm similarly cynical, and I see this getting worse. The only possible remedy I see is to understand human nature and act accordingly. These people will take every inch we give them, so we must take away the very tools they use to run their con. So, term limits, publicly-funded elections, Balanced Budget Amendment. If we don't take away the tools, how can we complain when they are used against us?
.

If you've been promised the moon in the past and are aghast when delivery doesn't come, I fail to have much sympathy for you if you line up shoulder to shoulder behind a man (Mr. Trump) who promises you the entire galaxy and that everything is going to be "terrific"; gives zero specifics, and the specifics given are so off program, you question the sanity of them (Mexico paying for a wall, a 45% tarriff, a ban on Muslims).

As for getting politics out of politics; it may be the one area where Clinton and the Establishment Republicans find common ground. Obviously, most of the GOP field is there just to sell books and drive up their speaking fees. You get rid of their white knights and they will go bye bye.

The support for people like Trump isn't happening in a vacuum. The "conservative movement" is being goosed along by apocalyptic conservative media, and it's not exactly difficult to see by their actions, it's not exactly difficult to hear when you speak with them.

They're making it much easier for the hard Left to move the country further Left, and they don't see it.
.

I can go along with your assessment if you think that the phenomenon surrounding the candidacy of Mr. Trump is the product of the goosing. I think it is more a function of a super empowered person seeing the Citizens United ruling and thinking to himself, "Why not instead of finding a surrogate, be my own surrogate."

Put another way, he didn't get drafted by some group of angry conservatives who see him as the last, best chance to preserve a way of life that is disappearing (cue the Shelby Foote voice over), he saw an opportunity and (TTBOMK) with little or no research inserted himself into the proceedings.

I don't think there can any denying that conservative talk radio has played a significant role in this. Limbaugh backed Walker (not officially, of course, for plausible deniability) and Walker soared. He then moved to Trump and Cruz and they soared and Walker disappeared. Same with Hannity and Levin. This isn't a coincidence.

Now, those same three hosts are speaking glowingly about Rubio out of nowhere (or, after his performance in Iowa).

This "anti-establishment" thing is an echo chamber like I've never seen, and it has 90% of the energy in the party.
.

The GOP is painting themselves into a corner with Senator Rubio. He has the same record as Obama...one term and not very impressive. While it takes the bat out of Secretary Clinton's hand to brand him as unelectable due to his being a 1 term Senator, the argument that Hillary has a "resume but not a record" is hollow concerning that she has held offices just as long as Senator Rubio.

With the resumes and records off the table; it becomes a battle of vision...

Rubio is pro-life and recently (August 9) said this:
"I'll support any legislation that reduces the number of abortions" ontheissues.org.

Panning back to a 30,000 foot view...

Sounds a lot like Romney. Obama destroyed Romney with Women. Hillary will likely do better.

When you look at personal conduct where he was making $300,000 a year and bought a yatch, ran up personal expenses on a party or government P Card (I don't recall who gave him the card) and had to cash in his retirement savings to pay off some debt....I think you may be able to spin that the youthful chap you see when you look at him is a little wreckless.

 

[candycorn]

People looked to the GOP, to push back 11,000,000 Illegal Aliens... and it failed to do so.

People looked to the GOP to stop the wars that it started... and it failed to do so.

People looked to the GOP to stop the hemorrhaging of jobs overseas... and it failed to do so.

People looked to the GOP to turn around the economy it wrecked... and it failed to do so.

People looked to the GOP to make trickle-down economics work... and it failed to do so.

People looked to the GOP to rescue the Middle Class... and it failed to do so.

People looked to the GOP to stop the Obama Social Reengineering juggernaut... and it failed to do so.

People looked to the GOP to provide equitable tax reform for all... and it failed to do so.

People looked to the GOP to streamline the government... and it failed to do so.

People have come to the conclusion that Republican leadership is almost as full of shit as Democratic leadership.

But, there's really no point in trying to launch a Third Party, the way things are now.

So.. the Pubs find themselves with a Populist Rebellion on their hands...

People are shoving aside the existing (Establishment) party leadership, gutting the party, and making it their own, as it once was, back when it deserved the name G(rand) O(ld) P(arty), before the Corporatists hijacked it in the early 20th Century...

And, of course, the party Ruling Elites don't know whether to shit or go blind or wind their watches... they don't have a clue how to get out of the dog-house with their rank-and-file...

In the long run, a turn towards Populism is probably a good thing... it's actually quite unwise, to allow the Swells to get too comfortable in their roles...

This is, after all, supposed to be a government OF the People, BY the People, and FOR the People...

Consider the present Populist Rebellion to be a long-overdue Market Correction...

You articulated that well. I have just one simple question. Those of us who have at least identified with the Republican party are up in arms, anti-establishment, and "mad as hell" that the party failed as you established above. We had an expectation that all of those conditions would be addressed and solutions would be found. And we are dismayed at the party that we gave them the majority rule and they have squandered it.

We think, we act and we are angry that the party failed us. Just when do the Democrats look at their party and scrutinize it for the failures for which they are responsible? Why do Democrats just muddle on, think nothing of the incredible debt that hammers home that as protectors of the state and future generations they, too are colossal failures?

Don't look now, but there is a struggle underway for the soul of the Democratic Party, as well... give it time... the self-assessment and polar-opposites bashing has begun.

The Democrats are a bit of a different cat. They have the luxury of being open to the future since the demographics all favor them. Though privately, the thought of a mosque on every corner of Portland may repulse a lot of liberals, they are not going to politically state that much less put up a candidate who does.

What is also in the Democrats advantage is that the GOP has become a party of absolutists. They always fail. The self-inflicted wound of thinking you know better when it is painfully clear that you do not is great for the other side.

 

[LoneLaugher]

...You don't think people are denying that AM radio and Fox News have directed the GOP for the past two decades.

Not really, although the impact of AM Talk Radio is undeniable.

Jealous you didn't think of it first?

Bill Press... Stephanie Miller... Normal Goldman... all part of Progressive Talk Radio.

It's tough, playing catch-up, isn't it?

Especially when you're pitching a whiny little biotch LibProg agenda.

Ridiculous.

Liberals don't yearn to be told what to think. Thus....those who play that game don't win over listeners.

 

[LoneLaugher]

...Why would anyone look to the GOP to do ANY of these things? they are the ones who caused most of them...

The truth actually lies in the middle, but we won't let Reality interfere with Partisanship... right?

...Besides the fact your populist rebellion has flamed out...

Damned shame, if true, but it's wwaaaaaaayy too early to make that call.

Just ask the Bernie Sanders folk...

...and you are probably going to take Rubio like your masters tell you to.

Given that I voted for Obumble... in both 2008 and 2012... I'll put your suggestion in the 'circular' file cabinet, where it belongs.

You voted for Obama? Twice?

You think people here will believe anything, don't you?

 

[Mac1958]

Though privately, the thought of a mosque on every corner of Portland may repulse a lot of liberals, they are not going to politically state that much less put up a candidate who does.

Whoa, holy shit, what?

Maybe you can clarify or re-state this, because it sure looks like you're saying liberals are putting politics over principles on this topic.
.

 

[Kondor3]

...SO you were head of the "Klansmen for Obama" organization?...

What? Where the hell is that coming from? Race-baiting and race-card-playing, this early in the morning? No sale.

...No, guy, you see, the problem is, the GOP got everything it wanted economically. It got the tax cuts for the rich, it got the free trade, it got the deregulation of industry. It got "Right to Work" and "At Will" employment. It got rid of all the things it promised us up and down that if we just went along with, they would create all these jobs and it would be wonderful. Except it didn't happen, did it? ...

Yep.

...Now, I do agree that Bernie and Trump have tapped into the frustration people feel over all this...

Yep.

...Bernie is just a lot closer in identifying the cause...

Yep. Trump, too, actually, when you get past the hyperbole, and focus on various pieces of his core message.

...Your life is not miserable because a Mexican came here to do a job you wouldn't want to do no matter how much they paid you...

Tell that to the roofers and carpenters and plumbers and landscapers and dry-wallers and painters and wallpaper-hangers and electricians and their helpers and apprentices that your Illegal Aliens have pushed out of the marketplace with their low-ball under-the-table wages; ruining decades of hard-fought gains by Organized Labor; a Democratic pillar.

...Your life is miserable because they moved the job you probably want to do to China, and they got a tax break for doing it.

Yep. And both Trump and Sanders realize this, and say as much. That's the biggest reason why the Populist Rebellion of 2016 is so profound and pervasive at present.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Though privately, the thought of a mosque on every corner of Portland may repulse a lot of liberals, they are not going to politically state that much less put up a candidate who does.

Whoa, holy shit, what?

Maybe you can clarify or re-state this, because it sure looks like you're saying liberals are putting politics over principles on this topic.
.

The thought of a church on every corner ( and in my neighborhood, taking up prime property tax free waterfront real estate ) repulses me. Same deal with mosques.

And Mac.......you just got a hard on when you thought you caught a lib being political. Very unattractive.

 

[Kondor3]

...Why would anyone look to the GOP to do ANY of these things? they are the ones who caused most of them...

The truth actually lies in the middle, but we won't let Reality interfere with Partisanship... right?

...Besides the fact your populist rebellion has flamed out...

Damned shame, if true, but it's wwaaaaaaayy too early to make that call.

Just ask the Bernie Sanders folk...

...and you are probably going to take Rubio like your masters tell you to.

Given that I voted for Obumble... in both 2008 and 2012... I'll put your suggestion in the 'circular' file cabinet, where it belongs.

You voted for Obama? Twice?

You think people here will believe anything, don't you?

Doesn't make one goddamned bit of difference whether you believe me or not.

I know the truth of it.

I had no desire to see a third Bush term, and voted for the New Guy, rather than McSame.

Mister Forty-Seven Percent - the arrogant sonofabitch... turned me off, and I voted for the Devil I Knew, rather than MIttens.

True story.

Whether you believe me or not is of very little interest to me.

I merely use the opportunity here to serve-up the lightweight rationale that I used in each case.

In both 2008 and 2012, I voted for what I perceived to be the Lesser of Two Evils.

I held my nose each time.

And on both occasions, I regretted my choice, before I'd even left the voting booth.

Buyer's Remorse.

The Lesser of Two Evils.

 

[LoneLaugher]

...Why would anyone look to the GOP to do ANY of these things? they are the ones who caused most of them...

The truth actually lies in the middle, but we won't let Reality interfere with Partisanship... right?

...Besides the fact your populist rebellion has flamed out...

Damned shame, if true, but it's wwaaaaaaayy too early to make that call.

Just ask the Bernie Sanders folk...

...and you are probably going to take Rubio like your masters tell you to.

Given that I voted for Obumble... in both 2008 and 2012... I'll put your suggestion in the 'circular' file cabinet, where it belongs.

You voted for Obama? Twice?

You think people here will believe anything, don't you?

Doesn't make one goddamned bit of difference whether you believe me or not.

I know the truth of it.

I had no desire to see a third Bush term, and voted for the New Guy, rather than McSame.

Mister Forty-Seven Percent - the arrogant sonofabitch... turned me off, and I voted for the Devil I Knew, rather than MIttens.

True story.

Whether you believe me or not is of very little interest to me.

I merely use the opportunity here to serve-up the lightweight rationale that I used in each case.

You've been here since 2009. If I look, will I find posts from you supporting Obama's reelection in 2012?

 

[Kondor3]

...You don't think people are denying that AM radio and Fox News have directed the GOP for the past two decades.

Not really, although the impact of AM Talk Radio is undeniable.

Jealous you didn't think of it first?

Bill Press... Stephanie Miller... Normal Goldman... all part of Progressive Talk Radio.

It's tough, playing catch-up, isn't it?

Especially when you're pitching a whiny little biotch LibProg agenda.

Ridiculous.

Liberals don't yearn to be told what to think. Thus....those who play that game don't win over listeners.

Yeah...

Sure...

That explains why all those millions of inner-city shit-hole ghetto folk continue to vote Democrat like good little sheep, election after election, decade after decade, as a side-show amusement, while they tear their cities and their neighborhoods apart and shoot each other in ever-increasing and record numbers...

Good little Sheeple...

And, of course, Progressive Talk Radio is playing catch-up, but gleaning an ever-increasing and large audience, as your side serves up its own Kool-AId....

Ridiculous?

Hardly.

You just can't bring yourself to admit that your side has finally figured-out that serving-up their own Talk Radio is a good way to go...

Typical, lumbering, unimaginative too-little-too-late Reactionary blather...

Copy-Cats...

 

[LoneLaugher]

...You don't think people are denying that AM radio and Fox News have directed the GOP for the past two decades.

Not really, although the impact of AM Talk Radio is undeniable.

Jealous you didn't think of it first?

Bill Press... Stephanie Miller... Normal Goldman... all part of Progressive Talk Radio.

It's tough, playing catch-up, isn't it?

Especially when you're pitching a whiny little biotch LibProg agenda.

Ridiculous.

Liberals don't yearn to be told what to think. Thus....those who play that game don't win over listeners.

Yeah...

Sure...

That explains why all those millions of inner-city shit-hole ghetto folk continue to vote Democrat like good little sheep, election after election, decade after decade, as a side-show amusement, while they tear their cities and their neighborhoods apart and shoot each other in ever-increasing and record numbers...

Good little Sheeple...

And, of course, Progressive Talk Radio is playing catch-up, but gleaning an ever-increasing and large audience, as your side serves up its own Kool-AId....

Ridiculous?

Hardly.

You just can't bring yourself to admit that your side has finally figured-out that serving-up their own Talk Radio is a good way to go...

Typical, lumbering, unimaginative too-little-too-late Reactionary blather...

Copy-Cats...

You are making things up. It's really weird.

 

[candycorn]

Though privately, the thought of a mosque on every corner of Portland may repulse a lot of liberals, they are not going to politically state that much less put up a candidate who does.

Whoa, holy shit, what?

Maybe you can clarify or re-state this, because it sure looks like you're saying liberals are putting politics over principles on this topic.
.

Why would I do that?

I'm sure a lot of them do.

Not sure where you live but I spent a lot of time in Houston growing up. We had this family...the "Mosbachers". I think their son was Secretary of Energy or something. Anyway, they would have these gala events for the poor and indigent. I happened to volunteer at a lot of the places that was receiving the monies so I was thankful. But sometimes, they would show up at one of our mobile kitchens that was handing out soup and bread in the winter and work for as long as the TV crew was filming and literally the moment the crew began to put away their gear, you'd see their daughter Gloria or whatever her name was take her apron off and go to her chauffeured Caddy. These guys were republicans but I can't tell you how many times democratic politicians from the "hood" did the same thing.

Google Rodney Ellis; there is no more smarmier man alive.

A lot of liberals would rather raise money for the poor, give it to them, and tell them to go away rather than fix what made them poor in the first place. As cold and cruel as that is, it pales next to the conservative argument that if you're poor, you want to be poor.
==========
What I didn't do in the post above is make my point that the Liberals are constantly having to guard against the Pelosi brand of liberalism and the pragmatic brand of Bill Clinton. The nation does not want Nancy Pelosi anywhere near their life. It is no coincidence that she stays almost completely to herself during every election. It's called discipline.

Just one quick note: Also while I was languishing in Texas, I saw the funniest bumper sticker ever....

"If you're having a bad day, just think; somewhere out there is a Mr. Pelosi".

 

[bendog]

So, you can't support your claim at all.

Good. That's settled.

A President Trump, would for the first time in living memory negotiate from a position of strength and with the interests of the American Worker as his goal AND with world class skill.

Do you understand what strength is?

Making unreasonable demands that the other party will not agree to is not strength. Trump does not have strength with Congress and does not have strength with other nations

Mexico will not pay for his wall
Congress will not repeal Obamacare

Bravado is not strength

Clean your crystal ball...it's dirty

Not really

I think the crystal ball is becoming clearer to Republicans on just what a Trump candidacy means to the party. The batshit crazy portion of the party will once again be put in their place

Cruz would be equally batshit crazy. But, you're probably right if you are thinking that if the Big Quack can't win NH, he's in deep bat shit.

I think Donald will do better in New Hampshire than he did in Iowa, but not nearly as well as HE thinks he will do, no matter how much he tries to spin it afterward (see his laughable commentary on the Iowa caucus).

New Hampshire's a lot less conservative than Iowa is, but I dunno how much they go in for wackadoodles.

I'll be shocked if the Donald doesn't win NH. G5000 posted Hayek's take on how Demigods use totalitarianism to take control, but I don't think Hayek really grasped the American Experiment, as the founders considered their foray into creating a nation. There's a lot of good to the Donald, and much of the racist bs is likely theatre.

The central question of this election is who has a plan to get us back to 3-4% growth without inflation. I'm not anti-Hillary, but she hasn't explained how she is not a big govt liberal like Bernie and Obama, and frankly the big govt thing ain't working. The GOP establishment is simply Goldman Sachs, and that includes Cruz.

 

[Jackson]

People looked to the GOP, to push back 11,000,000 Illegal Aliens... and it failed to do so.

People looked to the GOP to stop the wars that it started... and it failed to do so.

People looked to the GOP to stop the hemorrhaging of jobs overseas... and it failed to do so.

People looked to the GOP to turn around the economy it wrecked... and it failed to do so.

People looked to the GOP to make trickle-down economics work... and it failed to do so.

People looked to the GOP to rescue the Middle Class... and it failed to do so.

People looked to the GOP to stop the Obama Social Reengineering juggernaut... and it failed to do so.

People looked to the GOP to provide equitable tax reform for all... and it failed to do so.

People looked to the GOP to streamline the government... and it failed to do so.

People have come to the conclusion that Republican leadership is almost as full of shit as Democratic leadership.

But, there's really no point in trying to launch a Third Party, the way things are now.

So.. the Pubs find themselves with a Populist Rebellion on their hands...

People are shoving aside the existing (Establishment) party leadership, gutting the party, and making it their own, as it once was, back when it deserved the name G(rand) O(ld) P(arty), before the Corporatists hijacked it in the early 20th Century...

And, of course, the party Ruling Elites don't know whether to shit or go blind or wind their watches... they don't have a clue how to get out of the dog-house with their rank-and-file...

In the long run, a turn towards Populism is probably a good thing... it's actually quite unwise, to allow the Swells to get too comfortable in their roles...

This is, after all, supposed to be a government OF the People, BY the People, and FOR the People...

Consider the present Populist Rebellion to be a long-overdue Market Correction...

Why would anyone look to the GOP to do ANY of these things? they are the ones who caused most of them.

Besides the fact your populist rebellion has flamed out, and you are probably going to take Rubio like your masters tell you to.

It is a shame you cannot come forth with a dialogue, only insults that squash any kind of honest discussion with your counterparts.

 

[Montrovant]

And maybe explain it without the standard hyperbole and partisan BS. Just some honest, solid analysis. Or maybe provide a link to a piece that someone has written that calmly and reasonably explains it.

I think this "Fox News is the enemy" thing is the final straw with me. I'm now completely lost, and I feel like Sandra Bullock in Gravity, floating away from reality with no way to get back.

To wit:

• The aforementioned darling news network is, overnight, the target of at least as much derision as MSNBC
  
• A bombastic New Yorker who is clearly not a conservative is running away with the nomination
• That same candidate can literally say the most ridiculous things and it only makes his support stronger
  
• Suddenly, nationalism & populism clearly have more energy in the party than "conservative values"
• A nihilistic, "I don't care, just blow the whole thing up" attitude seems to completely permeate the party
  
• The slightest nod toward legislative cooperation is simply no longer allowed in public discourse
• The Establishment, whatever that is, appears to be more hated than any Democrat

It's like half the party has just snapped.

Exactly what is the goal here? And does anyone care if this inter-party schism is healed?
.

That is what happens when the people feel they have been betrayed. Revenge. Apathy. Derision. Hatred. Stubbornness. When the people you elect don't serve your interests, when they promise you the moon... that can only happen so many times before people get fed up with it. You can strike a dog on the nose so many times before he bites your hand. They will go elsewhere for fulfillment.

That goes for anyone else who seems to support those the people feel have betrayed them. You become an object of their wrath. The people feel their legislative interests have been ignored. So compromise is out of the question. Any dealings with the traitorous individuals will be seen as further betrayal, ergo, they see both parties and their supporters as equally repulsive as a result. I know, I've been down that road, and as of right now, that is why I abandoned the Republican party. I have considered rejoining, but this post of yours returned me to reality.

The "inter-party schism" has only been widened because of all of this. Politics is a cancer. It embitters the soul and darkens the heart. It not only divides a party, but an entire nation. Even if people cared enough, this "inter-party schism" will take generations to heal... that, or America, as she is now, won't live to see the day when that happens.

Well put, thanks. I'm struck by a couple of things.

About being "promised the moon" and then being betrayed: What might that be telling us on a macro level? Could it be that these politicians are naive about what power those promises will have when put to the legislative test? Or that they are simply lying to get elected? Personally, I think it's the former. The conservative movement wants it all now. They think they can just jerk the country back to where they want it, but it doesn't work that way. We didn't get to where we are overnight, and we wouldn't go back in the snap of a finger. The conservative movement has to earn its victories, not just blow shit up.

And regarding politics being a cancer. I'm similarly cynical, and I see this getting worse. The only possible remedy I see is to understand human nature and act accordingly. These people will take every inch we give them, so we must take away the very tools they use to run their con. So, term limits, publicly-funded elections, Balanced Budget Amendment. If we don't take away the tools, how can we complain when they are used against us?
.

I disagree with you about the reasoning behind candidates promising things they cannot deliver on. I think it is absolutely calculated. Politicians lie. That's one of the main characteristics that seems to hold true throughout different times and societies. While certainly there may be some who do not realize the limited nature of the power they will wield should they somehow gain the office they are fighting for, even then I expect that they have staff and campaign managers feeding them intentional lies most of the time. It's about getting votes and gaining office.

Now, I think the lies used are crafted with the intent of only promising so much; obviously if you go too far and can't deliver, there won't be a re-election!

I oppose term limits as an ideal, but I think that they may be a necessary practical solution.
Publicly funded elections sound good but I can't see them happening any time soon.
A balanced budget amendment is too much of a catch-all phrase. I'd need specifics to have any idea if I could support it. However, I understand the impetus in desiring one and can agree that limiting government spending is an important goal.

I tend to be both cynical and apathetic about politics.

 

[LoneLaugher]

...You don't think people are denying that AM radio and Fox News have directed the GOP for the past two decades.

Not really, although the impact of AM Talk Radio is undeniable.

Jealous you didn't think of it first?

Bill Press... Stephanie Miller... Normal Goldman... all part of Progressive Talk Radio.

It's tough, playing catch-up, isn't it?

Especially when you're pitching a whiny little biotch LibProg agenda.

What a koinkidink! This was published today. Read it please. It's by a guy who is an independent thinker. Enjoy.

Cruz and Trump, signs of conservative media's grip on GOP (Opinion) - CNN.com

 

[Mac1958]

And maybe explain it without the standard hyperbole and partisan BS. Just some honest, solid analysis. Or maybe provide a link to a piece that someone has written that calmly and reasonably explains it.

I think this "Fox News is the enemy" thing is the final straw with me. I'm now completely lost, and I feel like Sandra Bullock in Gravity, floating away from reality with no way to get back.

To wit:

• The aforementioned darling news network is, overnight, the target of at least as much derision as MSNBC
  
• A bombastic New Yorker who is clearly not a conservative is running away with the nomination
• That same candidate can literally say the most ridiculous things and it only makes his support stronger
  
• Suddenly, nationalism & populism clearly have more energy in the party than "conservative values"
• A nihilistic, "I don't care, just blow the whole thing up" attitude seems to completely permeate the party
  
• The slightest nod toward legislative cooperation is simply no longer allowed in public discourse
• The Establishment, whatever that is, appears to be more hated than any Democrat

It's like half the party has just snapped.

Exactly what is the goal here? And does anyone care if this inter-party schism is healed?
.

That is what happens when the people feel they have been betrayed. Revenge. Apathy. Derision. Hatred. Stubbornness. When the people you elect don't serve your interests, when they promise you the moon... that can only happen so many times before people get fed up with it. You can strike a dog on the nose so many times before he bites your hand. They will go elsewhere for fulfillment.

That goes for anyone else who seems to support those the people feel have betrayed them. You become an object of their wrath. The people feel their legislative interests have been ignored. So compromise is out of the question. Any dealings with the traitorous individuals will be seen as further betrayal, ergo, they see both parties and their supporters as equally repulsive as a result. I know, I've been down that road, and as of right now, that is why I abandoned the Republican party. I have considered rejoining, but this post of yours returned me to reality.

The "inter-party schism" has only been widened because of all of this. Politics is a cancer. It embitters the soul and darkens the heart. It not only divides a party, but an entire nation. Even if people cared enough, this "inter-party schism" will take generations to heal... that, or America, as she is now, won't live to see the day when that happens.

Well put, thanks. I'm struck by a couple of things.

About being "promised the moon" and then being betrayed: What might that be telling us on a macro level? Could it be that these politicians are naive about what power those promises will have when put to the legislative test? Or that they are simply lying to get elected? Personally, I think it's the former. The conservative movement wants it all now. They think they can just jerk the country back to where they want it, but it doesn't work that way. We didn't get to where we are overnight, and we wouldn't go back in the snap of a finger. The conservative movement has to earn its victories, not just blow shit up.

And regarding politics being a cancer. I'm similarly cynical, and I see this getting worse. The only possible remedy I see is to understand human nature and act accordingly. These people will take every inch we give them, so we must take away the very tools they use to run their con. So, term limits, publicly-funded elections, Balanced Budget Amendment. If we don't take away the tools, how can we complain when they are used against us?
.

I disagree with you about the reasoning behind candidates promising things they cannot deliver on. I think it is absolutely calculated. Politicians lie. That's one of the main characteristics that seems to hold true throughout different times and societies. While certainly there may be some who do not realize the limited nature of the power they will wield should they somehow gain the office they are fighting for, even then I expect that they have staff and campaign managers feeding them intentional lies most of the time. It's about getting votes and gaining office.

Now, I think the lies used are crafted with the intent of only promising so much; obviously if you go too far and can't deliver, there won't be a re-election!

I oppose term limits as an ideal, but I think that they may be a necessary practical solution.
Publicly funded elections sound good but I can't see them happening any time soon.
A balanced budget amendment is too much of a catch-all phrase. I'd need specifics to have any idea if I could support it. However, I understand the impetus in desiring one and can agree that limiting government spending is an important goal.

I tend to be both cynical and apathetic about politics.

Y'know, I thought about the possibility that they're just lying, and I get that. Maybe they think they can just keep lying and get away with it.

Trying to figure out the thought processes of professional politicians is an exercise in self-flagellation, that's fer sure.
.

 

[bendog]

And maybe explain it without the standard hyperbole and partisan BS. Just some honest, solid analysis. Or maybe provide a link to a piece that someone has written that calmly and reasonably explains it.

I think this "Fox News is the enemy" thing is the final straw with me. I'm now completely lost, and I feel like Sandra Bullock in Gravity, floating away from reality with no way to get back.

To wit:

• The aforementioned darling news network is, overnight, the target of at least as much derision as MSNBC
  
• A bombastic New Yorker who is clearly not a conservative is running away with the nomination
• That same candidate can literally say the most ridiculous things and it only makes his support stronger
  
• Suddenly, nationalism & populism clearly have more energy in the party than "conservative values"
• A nihilistic, "I don't care, just blow the whole thing up" attitude seems to completely permeate the party
  
• The slightest nod toward legislative cooperation is simply no longer allowed in public discourse
• The Establishment, whatever that is, appears to be more hated than any Democrat

It's like half the party has just snapped.

Exactly what is the goal here? And does anyone care if this inter-party schism is healed?
.

That is what happens when the people feel they have been betrayed. Revenge. Apathy. Derision. Hatred. Stubbornness. When the people you elect don't serve your interests, when they promise you the moon... that can only happen so many times before people get fed up with it. You can strike a dog on the nose so many times before he bites your hand. They will go elsewhere for fulfillment.

That goes for anyone else who seems to support those the people feel have betrayed them. You become an object of their wrath. The people feel their legislative interests have been ignored. So compromise is out of the question. Any dealings with the traitorous individuals will be seen as further betrayal, ergo, they see both parties and their supporters as equally repulsive as a result. I know, I've been down that road, and as of right now, that is why I abandoned the Republican party. I have considered rejoining, but this post of yours returned me to reality.

The "inter-party schism" has only been widened because of all of this. Politics is a cancer. It embitters the soul and darkens the heart. It not only divides a party, but an entire nation. Even if people cared enough, this "inter-party schism" will take generations to heal... that, or America, as she is now, won't live to see the day when that happens.

Well put, thanks. I'm struck by a couple of things.

About being "promised the moon" and then being betrayed: What might that be telling us on a macro level? Could it be that these politicians are naive about what power those promises will have when put to the legislative test? Or that they are simply lying to get elected? Personally, I think it's the former. The conservative movement wants it all now. They think they can just jerk the country back to where they want it, but it doesn't work that way. We didn't get to where we are overnight, and we wouldn't go back in the snap of a finger. The conservative movement has to earn its victories, not just blow shit up.

And regarding politics being a cancer. I'm similarly cynical, and I see this getting worse. The only possible remedy I see is to understand human nature and act accordingly. These people will take every inch we give them, so we must take away the very tools they use to run their con. So, term limits, publicly-funded elections, Balanced Budget Amendment. If we don't take away the tools, how can we complain when they are used against us?
.

I disagree with you about the reasoning behind candidates promising things they cannot deliver on. I think it is absolutely calculated. Politicians lie. That's one of the main characteristics that seems to hold true throughout different times and societies. While certainly there may be some who do not realize the limited nature of the power they will wield should they somehow gain the office they are fighting for, even then I expect that they have staff and campaign managers feeding them intentional lies most of the time. It's about getting votes and gaining office.

Now, I think the lies used are crafted with the intent of only promising so much; obviously if you go too far and can't deliver, there won't be a re-election!

I oppose term limits as an ideal, but I think that they may be a necessary practical solution.
Publicly funded elections sound good but I can't see them happening any time soon.
A balanced budget amendment is too much of a catch-all phrase. I'd need specifics to have any idea if I could support it. However, I understand the impetus in desiring one and can agree that limiting government spending is an important goal.

I tend to be both cynical and apathetic about politics.

Y'know, I thought about the possibility that they're just lying, and I get that. Maybe they think they can just keep lying and get away with it.

Trying to figure out the thought processes of professional politicians is an exercise in self-flagellation, that's fer sure.
.

With the Teaparty guys, they aren't lying that our debt calculations are unsustainable. And the current stalemate in getting a budget deal illustrates it. The teaparty guys are the only ones facing that fact: as the two headed dog of McCain and Graham want more money for bombs, and the dems want more for social programs. The Freedom Caucus want's balance it by cutting soc sec and medicare ... and the vast maj of Americans aren't buying that.

 

[Mac1958]

And maybe explain it without the standard hyperbole and partisan BS. Just some honest, solid analysis. Or maybe provide a link to a piece that someone has written that calmly and reasonably explains it.

I think this "Fox News is the enemy" thing is the final straw with me. I'm now completely lost, and I feel like Sandra Bullock in Gravity, floating away from reality with no way to get back.

To wit:

• The aforementioned darling news network is, overnight, the target of at least as much derision as MSNBC
  
• A bombastic New Yorker who is clearly not a conservative is running away with the nomination
• That same candidate can literally say the most ridiculous things and it only makes his support stronger
  
• Suddenly, nationalism & populism clearly have more energy in the party than "conservative values"
• A nihilistic, "I don't care, just blow the whole thing up" attitude seems to completely permeate the party
  
• The slightest nod toward legislative cooperation is simply no longer allowed in public discourse
• The Establishment, whatever that is, appears to be more hated than any Democrat

It's like half the party has just snapped.

Exactly what is the goal here? And does anyone care if this inter-party schism is healed?
.

That is what happens when the people feel they have been betrayed. Revenge. Apathy. Derision. Hatred. Stubbornness. When the people you elect don't serve your interests, when they promise you the moon... that can only happen so many times before people get fed up with it. You can strike a dog on the nose so many times before he bites your hand. They will go elsewhere for fulfillment.

That goes for anyone else who seems to support those the people feel have betrayed them. You become an object of their wrath. The people feel their legislative interests have been ignored. So compromise is out of the question. Any dealings with the traitorous individuals will be seen as further betrayal, ergo, they see both parties and their supporters as equally repulsive as a result. I know, I've been down that road, and as of right now, that is why I abandoned the Republican party. I have considered rejoining, but this post of yours returned me to reality.

The "inter-party schism" has only been widened because of all of this. Politics is a cancer. It embitters the soul and darkens the heart. It not only divides a party, but an entire nation. Even if people cared enough, this "inter-party schism" will take generations to heal... that, or America, as she is now, won't live to see the day when that happens.

Well put, thanks. I'm struck by a couple of things.

About being "promised the moon" and then being betrayed: What might that be telling us on a macro level? Could it be that these politicians are naive about what power those promises will have when put to the legislative test? Or that they are simply lying to get elected? Personally, I think it's the former. The conservative movement wants it all now. They think they can just jerk the country back to where they want it, but it doesn't work that way. We didn't get to where we are overnight, and we wouldn't go back in the snap of a finger. The conservative movement has to earn its victories, not just blow shit up.

And regarding politics being a cancer. I'm similarly cynical, and I see this getting worse. The only possible remedy I see is to understand human nature and act accordingly. These people will take every inch we give them, so we must take away the very tools they use to run their con. So, term limits, publicly-funded elections, Balanced Budget Amendment. If we don't take away the tools, how can we complain when they are used against us?
.

I disagree with you about the reasoning behind candidates promising things they cannot deliver on. I think it is absolutely calculated. Politicians lie. That's one of the main characteristics that seems to hold true throughout different times and societies. While certainly there may be some who do not realize the limited nature of the power they will wield should they somehow gain the office they are fighting for, even then I expect that they have staff and campaign managers feeding them intentional lies most of the time. It's about getting votes and gaining office.

Now, I think the lies used are crafted with the intent of only promising so much; obviously if you go too far and can't deliver, there won't be a re-election!

I oppose term limits as an ideal, but I think that they may be a necessary practical solution.
Publicly funded elections sound good but I can't see them happening any time soon.
A balanced budget amendment is too much of a catch-all phrase. I'd need specifics to have any idea if I could support it. However, I understand the impetus in desiring one and can agree that limiting government spending is an important goal.

I tend to be both cynical and apathetic about politics.

Y'know, I thought about the possibility that they're just lying, and I get that. Maybe they think they can just keep lying and get away with it.

Trying to figure out the thought processes of professional politicians is an exercise in self-flagellation, that's fer sure.
.

With the Teaparty guys, they aren't lying that our debt calculations are unsustainable. And the current stalemate in getting a budget deal illustrates it. The teaparty guys are the only ones facing that fact: as the two headed dog of McCain and Graham want more money for bombs, and the dems want more for social programs. The Freedom Caucus want's balance it by cutting soc sec and medicare ... and the vast maj of Americans aren't buying that.

I'm not saying they're lying about the issues as they and their supporters see them.

I'm saying it's possible that they know they're over-promising what they can deliver.
.
.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Ridiculous.

Liberals don't yearn to be told what to think. Thus....those who play that game don't win over listeners.

Is what you do actually considered "thinking?"

Isn't the process that you log on to KOS, ThinkProgress, or one of the other hate sites, and pheromones are released to stimulate receptors in the broccoli stalk that substitutes for a brain in you drones, which program you to spew the moronic idiocy you spew?

Kind of like a termite colony, but with less autonomous drones...