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I completely disagree. The Constitution protects my religious freedom. If you are a LGBT and want some artwork done, your desire for that artwork does not supersede my religious freedom. I do not impose my religious beliefs on you, and you do not try to force me to do something that violates my religious beliefs.If your religion prohibits you from adhering to public accommodation laws then you shouldn't have a business.
It's no different than a Muslim applying for a job in a bacon store and then saying he can't touch bacon because of his stupid religion
"I reserve the right to NOT provide a service." This actually was once an acceptable sign / practice for businesses, but Liberals seek to impose their will on others, IMO. It isn't just about getting LGBT 'accepted' as a norm, but they are also trying to FORCE others to 'participate in/support it', even if it is against their religious beliefs that are protected UN-CONDITIONALLY under the Constitution.
There are other artists who would gladly take your business. There are other bakeries that would gladly take your business. But that's not good enough. 'THAT' one refuses to do so, so we MUST FORCE them to do so against their will. While 'I' may not want to support your lifestyle / choices due to 'my' religious beliefs 'I' respect your right to be a LGBT and to have rights, 'you' demonstrate 'you' have no respect for 'my' religious beliefs and Constitutional Rights.
'Evil' (as I define in this saying as someone who wants to impose their will on others) teaches 'tolerance' until they are in a position to oppress, silence, and eliminate any opposition to their beliefs."
- We are seeing that today more and more. This oppression of Constitutionally protected rights of religious freedom, to me, is an example of that.
I also believe you and I may disagree on this issue, and that is ok....
You have freedom of religion, not freedom of business.
That's the crux of the problem, the notion that the freedom to conduct business isn't every bit as important as the freedom to practice religion.
Congress shall make no laws respecting religion therefore ALL businesses must obey public accommodation laws
Dear Skull Pilot
1. but both the LGBT and the Christian beliefs against same sex marriage
are both CREEDS.
2. Therefore govt cannot endorse or enforce one CREED over the other, much less penalize
one side because of this conflict between CREEDS that is equal.
3. The neutral solution would be to require that such conflicts either be resolved by consensus between the two parties, to respect their beliefs equally and their consent, or for both parties to agree NOT to do business together if they cannot resolve their differences. That would be fair to both.
The problem and the solution is that LGBT beliefs are a creed.
If these are truly treated EQUALLY as other creeds, then all conflicts can either be resolved or dropped.
The problem is when GOVT is abused to push LGBT creeds above others that are penalized for not agreeing.
That is not equal protection and that is what is being challenged and contested here.
I completely disagree. The Constitution protects my religious freedom. If you are a LGBT and want some artwork done, your desire for that artwork does not supersede my religious freedom. I do not impose my religious beliefs on you, and you do not try to force me to do something that violates my religious beliefs.If your religion prohibits you from adhering to public accommodation laws then you shouldn't have a business.
It's no different than a Muslim applying for a job in a bacon store and then saying he can't touch bacon because of his stupid religion
"I reserve the right to NOT provide a service." This actually was once an acceptable sign / practice for businesses, but Liberals seek to impose their will on others, IMO. It isn't just about getting LGBT 'accepted' as a norm, but they are also trying to FORCE others to 'participate in/support it', even if it is against their religious beliefs that are protected UN-CONDITIONALLY under the Constitution.
There are other artists who would gladly take your business. There are other bakeries that would gladly take your business. But that's not good enough. 'THAT' one refuses to do so, so we MUST FORCE them to do so against their will. While 'I' may not want to support your lifestyle / choices due to 'my' religious beliefs 'I' respect your right to be a LGBT and to have rights, 'you' demonstrate 'you' have no respect for 'my' religious beliefs and Constitutional Rights.
'Evil' (as I define in this saying as someone who wants to impose their will on others) teaches 'tolerance' until they are in a position to oppress, silence, and eliminate any opposition to their beliefs."
- We are seeing that today more and more. This oppression of Constitutionally protected rights of religious freedom, to me, is an example of that.
I also believe you and I may disagree on this issue, and that is ok....
You have freedom of religion, not freedom of business.
That's the crux of the problem, the notion that the freedom to conduct business isn't every bit as important as the freedom to practice religion.
Congress shall make no laws respecting religion therefore ALL businesses must obey public accommodation laws
Dear Skull Pilot
1. but both the LGBT and the Christian beliefs against same sex marriage
are both CREEDS..
If Jesus tells you not to provide a service to a wedding, then you should put your religion above your business and choose another line of work
Caving in to religion on these sorts of matters would turn every individual into his own personal government. Every law he objected to he could circumvent by claiming that to obey the law was against his religion.
Religion requires sacrifice
You are required to sacrifice for your religion, You can't make the law sacrifice for your religious beliefs
WHOA rightwinger!
Why isn't this applied to LGBT beliefs?
If these are to be treated equally as Christian required to put their beliefs aside in PRIVATE
and NOT impose on the public through Govt,
then WHY isn't this applied to LGBT?
Why aren't the homosexual advocates expected to keep their beliefs in private
and quit imposing this creed on the public through govt and laws? EXACTLY!
BINGO! rightwinger!!!
No one is expected or required to keep their beliefs private
A gay business owner can't refuse to sell to a Christian because the business owner doesn't approve of the Christian's Christianity.
They are treated exactly the same.
No you want to make it a problem if a baker or an artist does not want to do something outside of their own personal religious belief. It would be like someone asking me to draw or paint something pornographic for them. Go to someone willing to do that type of work for you and leave those who don't alone.When you put something out for public discussion that is what you are doing. If you came and asked me to do artwork for you celebrating your personal choices and I tell you no I am not willing to paint that leave it be and go find someone willing to do what you want.Don't stuff your bedroom in anyone's face and you won't have a problem.I'll say it again, Obama's America really seems to be working out well when people have the time to worry about such stupid and irrelevant issues concerning another person's sexuality.
Righties, get the fuck out of everybody's bedroom and pay attention: Trump is destroying your party while you dither over lesbians ordering a wedding cake.
Who is stuffing their bedroom in your face?
So putting "something out for public discussion" is pushing my bedroom in your face?
Let me clarify YOUR statement: I suspect when the gay couple tried to order their wedding cake they most likely went TO the bakery/caterer rather than making the baker/caterer come to their bedroom. And so straight, Christian idiots want to make that a problem.
Right the judge though would be obligated to toss out any frivolous suit.In that theory of yours I should be able to sue any attorney out there that refuses to assist me when I need legal representation even though they may not do that type of work.No there is not.there is a difference between a person who agrees to be an EMPLOYEE but refuses to
do what he has been employed to do---and
a person selling his own services. The artists are not the PAID EMPLOYEES of the people who hire their services until they agree to
DO THE SERVICE. Your analogy is silly
If you want to open a business you MUST abide by public accommodation laws. If your religion does not allow you to abide by those laws then you should not run a business because the mere legal operation of that business violates whatever superstition you happen to live by so the very act of opening that business is a sin
Dear Skull Pilot
So if a bacon business cannot hire or serve a Muslim customer, because
they will not change to selling beef or turkey bacon instead of pork only,
then the Muslim customer can sue this business for not accommodating them?
Or the bacon seller should shut down their business
because they can't accommodate Muslims?
What (legal) products you sell are your business. Who you will or will not sell to is the government's business.
You can sue any attorney out there- for any reason you want to. Doesn't mean you can win- but you can sue.
They don't like that idea as you are a part of what they think is their world.
I completely disagree. The Constitution protects my religious freedom. If you are a LGBT and want some artwork done, your desire for that artwork does not supersede my religious freedom. I do not impose my religious beliefs on you, and you do not try to force me to do something that violates my religious beliefs.
"I reserve the right to NOT provide a service." This actually was once an acceptable sign / practice for businesses, but Liberals seek to impose their will on others, IMO. It isn't just about getting LGBT 'accepted' as a norm, but they are also trying to FORCE others to 'participate in/support it', even if it is against their religious beliefs that are protected UN-CONDITIONALLY under the Constitution.
There are other artists who would gladly take your business. There are other bakeries that would gladly take your business. But that's not good enough. 'THAT' one refuses to do so, so we MUST FORCE them to do so against their will. While 'I' may not want to support your lifestyle / choices due to 'my' religious beliefs 'I' respect your right to be a LGBT and to have rights, 'you' demonstrate 'you' have no respect for 'my' religious beliefs and Constitutional Rights.
'Evil' (as I define in this saying as someone who wants to impose their will on others) teaches 'tolerance' until they are in a position to oppress, silence, and eliminate any opposition to their beliefs."
- We are seeing that today more and more. This oppression of Constitutionally protected rights of religious freedom, to me, is an example of that.
I also believe you and I may disagree on this issue, and that is ok....
You have freedom of religion, not freedom of business.
That's the crux of the problem, the notion that the freedom to conduct business isn't every bit as important as the freedom to practice religion.
Congress shall make no laws respecting religion therefore ALL businesses must obey public accommodation laws
Dear Skull Pilot
1. but both the LGBT and the Christian beliefs against same sex marriage
are both CREEDS..
Nope- simply untrue
Creed
There is no LGBT creed- as there is no LGBT religion, nor is there any unifying idea or set of beliefs within the LGBT community other than they are entitled to be treated exactly the same before the law.
- a statement of the basic beliefs of a religion
- : an idea or set of beliefs that guides the actions of a person or group
If your religion prohibits you from adhering to public accommodation laws then you shouldn't have a business.
It's no different than a Muslim applying for a job in a bacon store and then saying he can't touch bacon because of his stupid religion
You're right. It is no different. And just as the bacon store is under no obligation to accommodate the religious preferences of the Muslim applicant, bakers should be under no obligation to accommodate the sexual preferences of potential customers.
Actually you are wrong on both counts
The first instance is employment law- and employers are obligated to make reasonable accommodations to an employee for religious purposes- so if a butcher shop could make a reasonable accommodation- and still get the job done- it would have to accommodate a Jewish or Muslim who didn't want to handle pork.
The second instance is public accommodation laws- and bakers have an obligation to sell their cakes to customers regardless of their race, religion, gender and in some places- sexual orientation.
Public Accommodation laws have been in place for 50 years no- nothing is new about them.
No one is trying to shut you up, unfortunately. Your religious freedom does not extend to discriminating against others if you are in business.I completely disagree. The Constitution protects my religious freedom. If you are a LGBT and want some artwork done, your desire for that artwork does not supersede my religious freedom. I do not impose my religious beliefs on you, and you do not try to force me to do something that violates my religious beliefs.If your religion prohibits you from adhering to public accommodation laws then you shouldn't have a business.
It's no different than a Muslim applying for a job in a bacon store and then saying he can't touch bacon because of his stupid religion
"I reserve the right to NOT provide a service." This actually was once an acceptable sign / practice for businesses, but Liberals seek to impose their will on others, IMO. It isn't just about getting LGBT 'accepted' as a norm, but they are also trying to FORCE others to 'participate in/support it', even if it is against their religious beliefs that are protected UN-CONDITIONALLY under the Constitution.
There are other artists who would gladly take your business. There are other bakeries that would gladly take your business. But that's not good enough. 'THAT' one refuses to do so, so we MUST FORCE them to do so against their will. While 'I' may not want to support your lifestyle / choices due to 'my' religious beliefs 'I' respect your right to be a LGBT and to have rights, 'you' demonstrate 'you' have no respect for 'my' religious beliefs and Constitutional Rights.
'Evil' (as I define in this saying as someone who wants to impose their will on others) teaches 'tolerance' until they are in a position to oppress, silence, and eliminate any opposition to their beliefs."
- We are seeing that today more and more. This oppression of Constitutionally protected rights of religious freedom, to me, is an example of that.
I also believe you and I may disagree on this issue, and that is ok....
It doesn't have to you fucking idiot. A NON religious business also has a right to discriminate.
The government is NOT empowered to make people be nice to each other. If it is please show me where.
No one is trying to shut you up, unfortunately. Your religious freedom does not extend to discriminating against others if you are in business.I completely disagree. The Constitution protects my religious freedom. If you are a LGBT and want some artwork done, your desire for that artwork does not supersede my religious freedom. I do not impose my religious beliefs on you, and you do not try to force me to do something that violates my religious beliefs.If your religion prohibits you from adhering to public accommodation laws then you shouldn't have a business.
It's no different than a Muslim applying for a job in a bacon store and then saying he can't touch bacon because of his stupid religion
"I reserve the right to NOT provide a service." This actually was once an acceptable sign / practice for businesses, but Liberals seek to impose their will on others, IMO. It isn't just about getting LGBT 'accepted' as a norm, but they are also trying to FORCE others to 'participate in/support it', even if it is against their religious beliefs that are protected UN-CONDITIONALLY under the Constitution.
There are other artists who would gladly take your business. There are other bakeries that would gladly take your business. But that's not good enough. 'THAT' one refuses to do so, so we MUST FORCE them to do so against their will. While 'I' may not want to support your lifestyle / choices due to 'my' religious beliefs 'I' respect your right to be a LGBT and to have rights, 'you' demonstrate 'you' have no respect for 'my' religious beliefs and Constitutional Rights.
'Evil' (as I define in this saying as someone who wants to impose their will on others) teaches 'tolerance' until they are in a position to oppress, silence, and eliminate any opposition to their beliefs."
- We are seeing that today more and more. This oppression of Constitutionally protected rights of religious freedom, to me, is an example of that.
I also believe you and I may disagree on this issue, and that is ok....
It doesn't have to you fucking idiot. A NON religious business also has a right to discriminate.
The government is NOT empowered to make people be nice to each other. If it is please show me where.
Repeating it over and over doesn't make it true. You don't have the right to discriminate in business and haven't been able to for over 50 years. (Title II of CRA)
We know what it means that you're just getting upset about it now.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Being gay whether it's a choice or not is not a religion
It doesn't matter if a man sexually prefers other men if you open a business in this country you are subject to the law.
If you do not want to sin by serving gays then don't open a business until the laws are changed
No you want to make it a problem if a baker or an artist does not want to do something outside of their own personal religious belief. It would be like someone asking me to draw or paint something pornographic for them. Go to someone willing to do that type of work for you and leave those who don't alone.When you put something out for public discussion that is what you are doing. If you came and asked me to do artwork for you celebrating your personal choices and I tell you no I am not willing to paint that leave it be and go find someone willing to do what you want.Don't stuff your bedroom in anyone's face and you won't have a problem.I'll say it again, Obama's America really seems to be working out well when people have the time to worry about such stupid and irrelevant issues concerning another person's sexuality.
Righties, get the fuck out of everybody's bedroom and pay attention: Trump is destroying your party while you dither over lesbians ordering a wedding cake.
Who is stuffing their bedroom in your face?
So putting "something out for public discussion" is pushing my bedroom in your face?
Let me clarify YOUR statement: I suspect when the gay couple tried to order their wedding cake they most likely went TO the bakery/caterer rather than making the baker/caterer come to their bedroom. And so straight, Christian idiots want to make that a problem.
[
buying and selling is one thing
These cases coming up involve actual forced participation and speech.
That's going a bit further.
In one case, the baker had no problem baking the cake. But delivering it as part of their service involved attending the gay wedding, and that's what they asked to refrain from. That's private and outside the public storefront.
If you deliver to weddings you deliver to weddings. That's a part of your business. If you refuse to deliver to same sex weddings, that's discrimination.
Goddam that is so simple and easy to understand it's depressing to think that some people can't get it.
NYcarbineer
So if a videographer films people's parties,
and someone is having a group sex porn party with strippers, swingers and swappers,
then they are required to film that party.
Or it's discriminating over different beliefs about sex?
A simple executive order now that there is no limit on what those can address.
the statute listed is for Public Accommodations... Hotels, Motels, bed and breakfasts...Two Christian Artists Who Refuse to Serve Gay Weddings Are Likely Heading to Court to Battle the Government — but There’s a Twist
Phoenix City Code 18.4(B):
"No person shall, directly or indirectly, refuse, withhold from, or deny to any person, or aid in or incite such refusal, denial or withholding of, accommodations, advantages, facilities or privileges thereof because of race, color, religion, sex, national origin, marital status, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, or disability nor shall distinction be made with respect to any person based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, marital status, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, or disability in connection with the price or quality of any item, goods or services offered by or at any place of public accommodation."
According to the local government in Phoenix City your personal religious freedom can be overridden by the government, and you can be forced - as a Christian - to engage in activities that violate your religious beliefs. IMO that is a clear violation of the Constitution. (And you know d@mn-well the government would not try to apply this to Muslims for fear of 'offending them...but Christians are 'fair game'.)
Unlike other cases that have been in the news, though, these people / this business has NOT been sued or fined for refusing service for same-sex events....but they are probably still heading to court. Instead, 'Joanna Duka and Breanna Koski, owners of art company Brush & Nib, have filed a lawsuit against the city of Phoenix, Arizona' over the 'non-discrimination law' (above) 'that they claim violates their religious rights'.
"“Although the two young women happily create art for everyone regardless of sexual orientation, Phoenix interprets its law to require them to create art for events, like same-sex wedding ceremonies, that are completely at odds with their religious beliefs,” the lawyer wrote. “Phoenix also interprets its law to prevent them from explaining their religious beliefs and why they must create art consistent with their beliefs.”
"“Joanna and Breanna are exposing the pre-existing tension between Phoenix’s law and their constitutionally protected freedoms, between the right to speak and create freely and the government’s attempt to crush dissent and command conformity,” Scruggs continued. “And that is precisely what’s at stake.”
The company's owners are standing up for Christians / Christianity and is taking the fight to the city of Phoenix before anyone can bring the fight to them.
Go get 'em, girls!
I completely disagree. The Constitution protects my religious freedom. If you are a LGBT and want some artwork done, your desire for that artwork does not supersede my religious freedom. I do not impose my religious beliefs on you, and you do not try to force me to do something that violates my religious beliefs.
"I reserve the right to NOT provide a service." This actually was once an acceptable sign / practice for businesses, but Liberals seek to impose their will on others, IMO. It isn't just about getting LGBT 'accepted' as a norm, but they are also trying to FORCE others to 'participate in/support it', even if it is against their religious beliefs that are protected UN-CONDITIONALLY under the Constitution.
There are other artists who would gladly take your business. There are other bakeries that would gladly take your business. But that's not good enough. 'THAT' one refuses to do so, so we MUST FORCE them to do so against their will. While 'I' may not want to support your lifestyle / choices due to 'my' religious beliefs 'I' respect your right to be a LGBT and to have rights, 'you' demonstrate 'you' have no respect for 'my' religious beliefs and Constitutional Rights.
'Evil' (as I define in this saying as someone who wants to impose their will on others) teaches 'tolerance' until they are in a position to oppress, silence, and eliminate any opposition to their beliefs."
- We are seeing that today more and more. This oppression of Constitutionally protected rights of religious freedom, to me, is an example of that.
I also believe you and I may disagree on this issue, and that is ok....
You have freedom of religion, not freedom of business.
That's the crux of the problem, the notion that the freedom to conduct business isn't every bit as important as the freedom to practice religion.
Congress shall make no laws respecting religion therefore ALL businesses must obey public accommodation laws
Agreed. I'm not arguing for a religious exemption. I think that would be worse. I'm arguing that these laws are fundamentally in opposition to personal freedom.
Except he misquoted the first amendment, probably intentionally because
Congress shall pass no law respecting religion
is ENTIRELY different in meaning than
Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of religion
I agree though religion is a poor argument to make. Even the non religious have the right to discriminate.
No you want to make it a problem if a baker or an artist does not want to do something outside of their own personal religious belief. It would be like someone asking me to draw or paint something pornographic for them. Go to someone willing to do that type of work for you and leave those who don't alone.When you put something out for public discussion that is what you are doing. If you came and asked me to do artwork for you celebrating your personal choices and I tell you no I am not willing to paint that leave it be and go find someone willing to do what you want.Don't stuff your bedroom in anyone's face and you won't have a problem.I'll say it again, Obama's America really seems to be working out well when people have the time to worry about such stupid and irrelevant issues concerning another person's sexuality.
Righties, get the fuck out of everybody's bedroom and pay attention: Trump is destroying your party while you dither over lesbians ordering a wedding cake.
Who is stuffing their bedroom in your face?
So putting "something out for public discussion" is pushing my bedroom in your face?
Let me clarify YOUR statement: I suspect when the gay couple tried to order their wedding cake they most likely went TO the bakery/caterer rather than making the baker/caterer come to their bedroom. And so straight, Christian idiots want to make that a problem.
