Can we at least agree on this?

[berg80]

What's wrong with having controversial pardons subject to review by an independent board?

 

[Lesh]

I cannot agree with this, it is clearly just partisan based on your part.

Trump is not the first one to do this, did you whine about it when Clinton pardoned his half brother or Marc Rich?

If not, then you have no standing to do so now

I did and always thought that was a sordid mess.

The pardon process absolutely needs reform

 

[White 6]

I very much doubt that. The optics would be universally terrible.

BS. The whatever current administration would defend to the death, to preserve that presidential power for themselves and all future POTUS.
The only thing I can think of is for state where crime is committed to bring state charges to trial after the Federal trial, to assure the guilty will serve their time somewhere, as both a sitting POTUS and a sitting Governor would be required to actually let somebody off, Scot free. This was done in reverse in the Georgia Ahmaud Arbery and I think for this very reason.

 

[kyzr]

Amending the Constitution is challenging, no doubt. But who would oppose a proposal to stop the prez from pardoning someone who has knowledge of an unethical or criminal act committed by the prez?

Strict Constitutionalists would oppose it.
If its not broke don't fix it. Both sides use the "pardon"liberally as the president heads out the door.
I remember Clinton pardoned Marc Rich after meeting with his wife as he headed out the door.

 

[kyzr]

I did and always thought that was a sordid mess.
The pardon process absolutely needs reform

Democrat DAs don't prosecute anymore, but now you want someone to regulate the president's power to pardon? Never happen.

 

[kyzr]

What's wrong with having controversial pardons subject to review by an independent board?

1. Whose definition of "controversial" would you be using?
2. Who gets to decide the makeup of that "independent board"? (no boards are ever apolitical)
3. The Constitution will never be amended to change that presidential power, PERIOD.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Amending the Constitution is challenging, no doubt. But who would oppose a proposal to stop the prez from pardoning someone who has knowledge of an unethical or criminal act committed by the prez?

It will be difficult to amend the constitution in such a way that can't be gotten around.

But i'd be happy with whatever rules apply as long as they apply to everyone. Cheering the DOJ for protecting Hillary while going after Trump will come back to haunt the left.

 

[rightwinger]

A Presidents power to pardon should not extend to cases he has a personal interest in
Pardoning those who broke laws on your behalf should not be tolerated

 

[kyzr]

A Presidents power to pardon should not extend to cases he has a personal interest in
Pardoning those who broke laws on your behalf should not be tolerated

So what wins, your opinion or the US Constitution?

 

[rightwinger]

So what wins, your opinion or the US Constitution?

The Constitution can be changed

 

[Grumblenuts]

The electorate's first "review" power is voting the uniquely corrupt incumbent bastard out of office. Then we tell the State of NY's criminal court to "Smash!"

Can we at least agree that the Dems pitting an entitled, boring, old warmonger against a popular carnival barker was the first crime in this case?

 

[Votto]

Trump once said, “Then, I have an Article II, where I have to the right to do whatever I want as president.” It would appear no one in his admin or inner circle dared to inform him of his colossal misunderstanding of Article II powers. But he's finding out now.

But this thread isn't about the sordid MaL affair. It's about whether we all can agree the absolute power to pardon people possessed by the POTUS needs to be reformed?

One of the features of Trump's presidency was the extent to which he exposed weaknesses in the laws, rules, and protocols governing a prez's behavior. Weaknesses that existed because no one ever contemplated that a prez would so extensively exploit them. This article explores some of the areas in need of reform and suggests remedies to address them.

Repairing the Rule of Law: An Agenda for Post-Trump Reform

What should be done in a post-Trump world to restore the rule of law?

www.lawfareblog.com

One of them being.............-Pardon reform. There can be little doubt of two things. First, as currently constructed, the president’s pardon power is nearly absolute. Second, President Trump’s use of the pardon power has transgressed the Founders’ expectations. Indeed, the idea that a president might pardon his own criminal confederates (as is arguably the case with Roger Stone) is exactly why George Mason opposed the pardon power altogether. At some point, Congress might give serious consideration to a constitutional amendment that, for example, makes pardons illegal for individuals personally known to the president and makes the misuse of the power judicially reviewable.

As the author points out, Stone is the most glaring example of an abuse because he possessed information that related to Trump's exposure in the Mueller investigation. After making it clear to Stone his silence would be rewarded Stone was in fact pardoned. I can think of no other example of a previous prez so manifestly abusing his authority.

The question at hand being, can we agree no POTUS should be allowed to pardon someone who could act as a hostile witness to the prez in a civil or criminal case or in an impeachment trial?

That is ridiculous.

Only democrats can do whatever the hell they want.

Trump is a slow learner.

 

[Votto]

The Constitution can be changed

And ignored, and reinterpreted, and dragged through the mud, etc., etc.

 

[kyzr]

The Constitution can be changed

True, an Amendment can be passed. But the presidential pardon power won't be ever be amended.

 

[dudmuck]

What law did Trump break?
Did he illegally use the IRS, DOJ and the FBI as political weapons?
Did he spy on Joe Biden's campaign?
Did he commit fraud with the FISA court?
Did be influence peddle with Iran, Russia and China?
Did he use his son to launder bribe money?
Did he violate the 1st amendment rights of Americans?
Did he violate the 4th amendment rights of Joe Biden?
The far left extremist Democrat Party is lawless, it doesn't respect the constitution, and it is a threat to our "democracy".
The Democrat obsession with Trump is crazy.

What law did Trump break? its an extensive list, but the most recent.
Did he illegally use the IRS, DOJ and the FBI as political weapons? yes,explained here
Did he spy on Joe Biden's campaign? Biden campaign never seeked help from other countries
Did he commit fraud with the FISA court? Biden campaign never seeked help from other countries
Did be influence peddle with Iran, Russia and China? Trump did that more domestically
Did he use his son to launder bribe money? alot of that going on (and kushner's two billion from saudis)
Did he violate the 1st amendment rights of Americans? plenty of that
Did he violate the 4th amendment rights of Joe Biden? Biden never stole top secret documents
The far left extremist Democrat Party is lawless, it doesn't respect the
constitution, and it is a threat to our "democracy". Thats just projection
The Democrat obsession with Trump is crazy. Are democrats going the rallies
he's still holding?

 

[berg80]

BS. The whatever current administration would defend to the death, to preserve that presidential power for themselves and all future POTUS.
The only thing I can think of is for state where crime is committed to bring state charges to trial after the Federal trial, to assure the guilty will serve their time somewhere, as both a sitting POTUS and a sitting Governor would be required to actually let somebody off, Scot free. This was done in reverse in the Georgia Ahmaud Arbery and I think for this very reason.

The suggestion is not to remove the pardon power wholesale. Just to amend it so it can't be abused as it was with the pardon of Stone.

 

[Lesh]

The suggestion is not to remove the pardon power wholesale. Just to amend it so it can't be abused as it was with the pardon of Stone.

And Bannon and Manafort

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Good luck trying to amend the US Constitution on today's hyper-partisan playing field.
NFW doesn't begin to describe the odds of success.

There’s a school of thought that it’s incumbent upon the people to choose their presidents wisely, to elect someone who won’t abuse the powers of the office, such as the power to pardon.

Reform, therefore, shouldn’t be needed if the people choose wisely.

Otherwise, when the people err, they deserve the bad government they get – Trump, of course, was the worst.

 

[White 6]

The suggestion is not to remove the pardon power wholesale. Just to amend it so it can't be abused as it was with the pardon of Stone.

I understand and especially with Stone know the Federal pardon on all 7 counts, the jury convicted on was wrong. I do not see a constitutional change, taking place to change this, no matter, due to politics and state ratification. That is why state charges where the crimes were committed against the citizens of the state may be the only way to go.

 

[berg80]

And Bannon and Manafort

As much as Bannon's pardon was a travesty of justice, being addressed by NY, the wall funding project didn't involve criminal/impeachable behavior by Trump as was the case with Stone's pardon.