Canada’s health care system

[gcomeau]

Since one of the truest measures of the quality of a healthcare system is how it performs on life-threatening ailments - as opposed to trying to measure it by things it has no real control over, like life expectancy and infant mortality - I'd say talking about cancer survival rates is a very good representation of the quality of American health care.

Ummm, Mr. Perceptive? What part of me posting an extensive set of data that included cancer treatment outcomes led you to the conclusion that I was arguing we shouldn't look at cancer treatment outcomes... as opposed to saying we should be looking at more comprehensive data sets than JUST one or two studies of one single condition?

Hmmm?

But if you'd like to look at some other measure of effectiveness, how about this: The vaunted WHO health care ranking report of 2000, so beloved and quoted by leftists, ranks the United States number one in responsiveness.

Which only benefits people with access TO the system. Which the US ranks pathetically on

Well, since I had never heard of "Open Medicine", and I know that one can find people on the Internet to say pretty much anything, I had to go research your source. Does it seem at all suspicious to anyone else that the editorial board members of this spiffy new medical journal just happen to have formerly belonged to the editorial board of the Canadian Medical Association Journal?

Of course, I'm a little skeptical about anything that has to tell me three or four times on the first page that it's "systematic". Who are they trying to convince?

1. Oh. My. God.

Some of the editors of a medical journal were previously the editors of... ANOTHER MEDICAL JOURNAL!?!?!?!?

I'm floored. Left speechless. My entire world has been turned upside down!

2. The repetition of the word "systematic" in the introductory summary somehow invalidates the data from 38 different scientific studies of comparative treatment outcomes in the US and Canada? Does it really?

Don't let me distract you from pressing your hands firmly over your ears, squeezing your eyes shut, and hoping reality will go away if you pretend it isn't there. You seem to be concentrating rather heavily on your efforts.

What, that we have better survival rates?

Can you or can you not read? You. Don't. Have. Those. Except in a few isolated studies of specific conditions.

Right now, Medicare and its patients get to access the medical system produced by largely by the HMO system and its patients. Therefore, it doesn't change the fact that Americans get good medical care, OR the fact that that would no longer apply if EVERYONE had the equivalent of Medicare.

Except everyone in Canada DOES have access to a rough equivalent of medicare and I just finished showing you the data that demonstrated they experienced equivalent or superior health outcomes in the majority of studies performed. But I know... hands over ears, eyes squeezed shut... don't let me interrupt you or anything.

How about YOU show us REAL data for people being "indefinitely wait-listed by being priced out of the system"? Oh, hell, how about you show us real data for people not able to get any medical care at all? That's what "priced out of the system" is, right?

Do you live on another planet or something? Are you arguing that there is nobody in the US who can't afford insurance? Or are you arguing everyone in the US who can't afford insurance qualifies for medicare?

In either of those cases, are the walls of your room padded by any chance?

If you're planning to contend that the US is cooking the books on this subject, you need to put your statistics where your mouth is before demanding that someone ELSE argue against your assertion.

Have you ever even READ a wait times statistics report? They only report average wait times of people who ACTUALLY MAKE APPOINTMENTS FOR TREATMENT.

People who can't afford treatments? They don't do that.

In Canada however effectively their entire population can afford treatment, so their wait times stats are actually accurate representations of the average citizen. The numbers in the US are not.

Just like I was when I heard that ::gasp:: Americans bitch about their health care sometimes. But somehow, THAT means that the whole system sucks and should be totally replaced.

No, it needs to be replaced because it's ruinously expensive while producing mediocre at best outcomes and pathetic levels of access. Where have you been?

One, you really need to learn to include these little references more effectively. Two, who the hell are these people, and why am I supposed to care? Three, didn't we just get done discussing how self-identification was kinda meaningless?

Since I was responding directly to a claim that people in other countries didn't like their systems which was being used to imply US style health care was preferable, the actual numbers in Canada and a DIRECT question of whether Canadians would prefer US style care was a tiny bit relevant. It was not being used as an argument in favor of reform, it was being used as a "you're full of crap" visual aid. Understand now?

I know a country that has waiting lists for MRIs running into months isn't snarkily talking about whether or not AMERICANS get to use THEIRS.

Waiting then using is better then never using.

How beneficial are YOUR scanty numbers of these machines to Canadian citizens who have to schedule their injuries months in advance if they want to use them?

Wait time placement in Canada is based on medical urgency of need as determined by the attending physician genius. So... they're useful in direct proportion to how much the patient in question needs them to be useful. Crazy idea I know...

And once again, if you're going to come in here making assertions about us just letting people die in droves with no medical care, you'd best be ready to back it up.

Oh damn it all... if only I had posted a link to the statistics on health care amenable mortality rates in industrialized nations that showed the US had the worst performance on the prevention of medically preventable deaths in the entire industrialized world... boy do I feel like an idiot!

Oh wait, I did that. So either you didn't bother reading it, or the words were too big for you. Which one was it exactly? I have a dictionary you can borrow if it's the latter.

That wasn't even a good try at deflection. I don't recall it being said that it was due to insurance companies

It's being used as an argument against reforming health INSURANCE genius.

If you show me the part of the bill proposing reforming university medical research labs or the biotech sector you let me know.

It's "jog" your memory.

It's "the b is right beside the g on the keyboard and we have these things called typos".

As for examples, pharmaceuticals are by far the most-used method of treatment for illnesses and injuries. The United States, because it doesn't have governmental price controls on pharmaceuticals the way every other industrialized nation does, ends up underwriting the costs for everyone else. Were we to adopt a system like Canada's, the drug companies that currently look to us to pay for their R & D would simply stop developing new drugs.

Right... because they sell their products at a LOSS in other countries so the only way developing new drugs is profitable is if they sell them for massively overinflated prices in the US to make up the difference!

Or... not.

Well, gloryosky. If we had a medal for throwing up random graphs with no context or explanation whatsoever, you'd be a shoo-in for it. Other than that, what's your frigging point?

if you don't understand the point of showing the statistics that establish that the US is the worst performer in the entire industrialized world at preventing medically preventable deaths, and graphs so mind numbingly simple as "National Health Spending as a % of GDP" in a debate on health care reform then run along and play kiddo. The grown-ups are talking.

Tax spending? What does that mean, precisely? Does it, by any chance, refer to the percentage of the individual citizen's income that goes to taxes?

If you don't recognize that as a graph of %GDP spending on health care after it followed the other graphs with the exact same information in it in line chart form I'm not sure how much effort it's worth explaining this subject to you.

 

[Yukon]

Americans are so naive, so pathetically naive. I pity you people.

 

[Jay Canuck]

Americans are so naive, so pathetically naive. I pity you people.

you know what you stupid fucking hack? ....you aren't doing Canada any favors by insulting all of our neighbors - pull your head out of your ass and take 5.

 

[gcomeau]

Well, you should see this one coming.

Prove it.

Prove what? Prove that every other industrialized country in the world has national health insurance, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare?

It's posted here in this thread!

and their taxes are double or triple what ours are.

WHAT???

Canadian average marginal tax rates are like a couple percent higher than the US. And as explained in an earlier post have NOTHING to do with the cost of their health care system considering both the US and Canada pay almost identical percentages of their GDPs in tax dollars towards health care.

If you'd like some specific numbers for reference just to try to get your head around this... let's take single filers in say, Ontario (40% of Canadians live there after all) and California or New York (pretty large chunks of the US population). I just plugged the federal, state and provincial income tax rates for income ranges of $1000 through $450,000 for those three locations into excel so you could see a nice easy to understand visual of what we're talking about here (again, remove the spaces to visit the link, it's the only way I can post it for now):

http : // img206.imageshack.us/img206/5043/15372427.jpg

Now, I didn't adjust for exchange rates there so keep that in mind. And that is income tax only... you still have to factor in things like sales taxes which are higher in Canada. And that is bare bones... no factoring in various deductions and such. But where the hell do you get the absolutely absurd idea that tax rates in nations with universal health insurance systems are "two to three times" higher than the US? You realize that in many tax brackets three times the US income tax rate is over 100% right? And even two times is pushing the 90s. How do you not realize how ridiculous it is to think that?

 

[Meister]

Prove what? Prove that every other industrialized country in the world has national health insurance, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare?

It's posted here in this thread!

and their taxes are double or triple what ours are.

WHAT???

Canadian average marginal tax rates are like a couple percent higher than the US. And as explained in an earlier post have NOTHING to do with the cost of their health care system considering both the US and Canada pay almost identical percentages of their GDPs in tax dollars towards health care.

If you'd like some specific numbers for reference just to try to get your head around this... let's take single filers in say, Ontario (40% of Canadians live there after all) and California or New York (pretty large chunks of the US population). I just plugged the federal, state and provincial income tax rates for income ranges of $1000 through $450,000 for those three locations into excel so you could see a nice easy to understand visual of what we're talking about here (again, remove the spaces to visit the link, it's the only way I can post it for now):

http : // img206.imageshack.us/img206/5043/15372427.jpg

Now, I didn't adjust for exchange rates there so keep that in mind. And that is income tax only... you still have to factor in things like sales taxes which are higher in Canada. And that is bare bones... no factoring in various deductions and such. But where the hell do you get the absolutely absurd idea that tax rates in nations with universal health insurance systems are "two to three times" higher than the US? You realize that in many tax brackets three times the US income tax rate is over 100% right? And even two times is pushing the 90s. How do you not realize how ridiculous it is to think that?

There is a Value Added Tax (VAT) on purchases. I'm sure gas taxes are higher in Canada.
I'm not sure when all the taxes added it up where it stands with the US. I am sure they pay a heck of a lot more taxes than we do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_Canada

 

[Jay Canuck]

we do pay high taxes and even though I like our "free" healthcare I have had enuf......fucking Liberals in this country make Jane Fonda look like W.F. Buckley.

 

[gcomeau]

There is a Value Added Tax (VAT) on purchases. I'm sure gas taxes are higher in Canada.
I'm not sure when all the taxes added it up where it stands with the US. I am sure they pay a heck of a lot more taxes than we do.

No, not a "heck of a lot" more... unless you consider a few percent to be "a heck of a lot".

While we're browsing Wikipiedia:

http : // en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Canadian_and_American_economies#Taxation

Check the taxation section. It lists total tax revenue by percentage of GDP, which is a pretty good indicator of total all inclusive tax levels. They're not that different.

And, like I said... that difference has NOTHING to do with cost of health care. The difference is due to things like other social programs. Oh, and the federal budget *surplus* Canada was running for 12 straight years while steadily reducing their national debt before the current global reccession hit (and which they expect to return to running shortly), as opposed to what the US was doing for the last 8 years with IT'S budget, which was... something else.

 

[Toro]

Americans are so naive, so pathetically naive. I pity you people.

you know what you stupid fucking hack? ....you aren't doing Canada any favors by insulting all of our neighbors - pull your head out of your ass and take 5.

Yes, yes, thank you. Yukon is a troll who makes Canadians and Catholics look bad.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-flame-zone/73150-i-would-like-to-apologize.html

 

[Toro]

There is a Value Added Tax (VAT) on purchases. I'm sure gas taxes are higher in Canada.
I'm not sure when all the taxes added it up where it stands with the US. I am sure they pay a heck of a lot more taxes than we do.

No, not a "heck of a lot" more... unless you consider a few percent to be "a heck of a lot".

While we're browsing Wikipiedia:

http : // en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Canadian_and_American_economies#Taxation

Check the taxation section. It lists total tax revenue by percentage of GDP, which is a pretty good indicator of total all inclusive tax levels. They're not that different.

And, like I said... that difference has NOTHING to do with cost of health care. The difference is due to things like other social programs. Oh, and the federal budget *surplus* Canada was running for 12 straight years while steadily reducing their national debt before the current global reccession hit (and which they expect to return to running shortly), as opposed to what the US was doing for the last 8 years with IT'S budget, which was... something else.

According to the most recent data from the OECD, taxes are 31% of GDP in the US and 38% in Canada. Yet the budget deficit is much higher in the US than in Canada. Total government spending in 2008 was 38% of GDP in the US and 39% in Canada.

 

[Jay Canuck]

Americans are so naive, so pathetically naive. I pity you people.

you know what you stupid fucking hack? ....you aren't doing Canada any favors by insulting all of our neighbors - pull your head out of your ass and take 5.

Yes, yes, thank you. Yukon is a troll who makes Canadians and Catholics look bad.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-flame-zone/73150-i-would-like-to-apologize.html

Each nation has it's dipshits.... it was cool you owned up for one of ours.

 

[Oddball]

According to the most recent data from the OECD, taxes are 31% of GDP in the US and 38% in Canada. Yet the budget deficit is much higher in the US than in Canada. Total government spending in 2008 was 38% of GDP in the US and 39% in Canada.

How much military empire does Canada maintain?

How much does Canada flush down the U.N. toilet?

How many nations are basically bastard political/military stepchildren to Canada?

How much does Canada fork over in non-military foreign aid?

How many of Canada's private businesses has its central bank bailed out?

 

[veritas]

Canada has one tenth the people we do. They do fine, dude.

 

[Toro]

How much military empire does Canada maintain?

Not much, but I believe there have been relatively more Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan than American soldiers, at least until recently, though I may be wrong about that. The US spends 4% of its GDP on the military whereas Canada spends about 1.5%.

How much does Canada flush down the U.N. toilet?

Dues at the UN are relative to GDP. Canada pays its dues on time and is not in arrears, unlike the US. Canada also devotes significantly more to UN peacekeeping than the US.

How many nations are basically bastard political/military stepchildren to Canada?

Does Quebec count?

How much does Canada fork over in non-military foreign aid?

I can't remember the exact number but I think its 0.25%-0.3% of GDP versus 0.15% for the US. Sweden is 0.7%.

How many of Canada's private businesses has its central bank bailed out?

The Canadian government gave loans to the auto companies but not a single dime has been given to the financial sector as the financial sector was better regulated in Canada.

 

[Oddball]

Most of Medicare's long-run cost issues come from the exploding cost of health care. So it's not like the rest of the system is immune from the problem that is "bankrupting" Medicare.

Medicare/Medicaid's long-run costs have come from the fact that politicians and bureaucrats cannot control costs, because offering something -anything- for "free" will always atrtract more moochers than you projected (see: the clunker program), and that there's no financial penalty to be paid for making bad decisions.

You might have a case if you could name the first time any federal program came in under budger and delivered a better product than you could get out in the real world, but you can't.

WIC Works « Poverty & Policy


According to a report by the Partnership for America’s Economic Success, every $1.00 spent on WIC saves as much as $3.13 in Medicaid costs, plus significant other costs linked to the impacts of food insecurity.

http://www.pewcenteronthestates.org/uploadedFiles/Final Online Brief.pdf

http://www.frac.org/pdf/cnwic.pdf

Just for the sake of it -however hardly any decent and workable model for a fascistic takeover of an entire American industry it is- that's ONE.

Name some more.

 

[KittenKoder]

Canad sucks ... the US rules ... for now anyway.

 

[Oddball]

Not much, but I believe there have been relatively more Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan than American soldiers, at least until recently, though I may be wrong about that. The US spends 4% of its GDP on the military whereas Canada spends about 1.5%.

Dues at the UN are relative to GDP. Canada pays its dues on time and is not in arrears, unlike the US. Canada also devotes significantly more to UN peacekeeping than the US.

Does Quebec count?

I can't remember the exact number but I think its 0.25%-0.3% of GDP versus 0.15% for the US. Sweden is 0.7%.

The Canadian government gave loans to the auto companies but not a single dime has been given to the financial sector as the financial sector was better regulated in Canada.

Yeah...When the raw numbers fail you, go to percentages.

Suffice to say that a lot more in hard money comes out of the American treasury for global welfare -especially military empire- than it does out of Canada's.

America also has incredibly overpriced and overcompensated bureaucrats, and waaaaaaaaay too many of them.

Likewise, America's military-industrial empire has tropps stationed in well over 100 nations.

Just sayin'.

 

[Oddball]

Canad sucks ... the US rules ... for now anyway.

Canada's O.K....if you don't venture too far outside of soutwest Ontario.

 

[Toro]

Canad sucks ... the US rules ... for now anyway.

Canada's O.K....if you don't venture too far outside of soutwest Ontario.

FFS, that's the worst place!

 

[Oddball]

....with the best fishing.

 

[Toro]

Not much, but I believe there have been relatively more Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan than American soldiers, at least until recently, though I may be wrong about that. The US spends 4% of its GDP on the military whereas Canada spends about 1.5%.

Dues at the UN are relative to GDP. Canada pays its dues on time and is not in arrears, unlike the US. Canada also devotes significantly more to UN peacekeeping than the US.

Does Quebec count?

I can't remember the exact number but I think its 0.25%-0.3% of GDP versus 0.15% for the US. Sweden is 0.7%.

The Canadian government gave loans to the auto companies but not a single dime has been given to the financial sector as the financial sector was better regulated in Canada.

Yeah...When the raw numbers fail you, go to percentages.

Suffice to say that a lot more in hard money comes out of the American treasury for global welfare -especially military empire- than it does out of Canada's.

America also has incredibly overpriced and overcompensated bureaucrats, and waaaaaaaaay too many of them.

Likewise, America's military-industrial empire has tropps stationed in well over 100 nations.

Just sayin'.

First of all, the American dollar ain't "hard money" no more.

Of course you go to percentages. Who is more generous, the man who makes $50k a year and gives away $25k or the guy who makes $10 million a year and gives away $100k?

You are judged by the resources you have.

Oh, and Canadians pay their bureaucrats more. I can tell you that having worked in both the US and Canadian governments, Canadian government workers have it WAAAAAAAAAY easier than Americans. Canadians also have more government and thus more bureaucrats. Its one of the pluses of America actually.