Zone1 Capital Punishment is Wrong!

[Ringel05]

Everyone is guilty of something........ Let's get it over with and nuke the human race into extinction!!!!!!

 

[Flopper]

We need to take a fresh look at our criminal justice system. Both Leftists and Rightists can find a lot wrong with it. (Leftists don't like the plea bargaining system, which sees people pleading guilty because of the promise of a shorter sentence. Rightists don't like the shorer sentences.)

What we have to first establish is that the criminal justice system should protect, first of all, law-abiding people. It doesn't do this very well now.

One thing we need to establish is whether any program of 'rehabilitation' works. I assert that, for most criminals, for most situations, it doesn't.

What 'works' is keeping criminals locked up for a very long time -- at a minimum, until they're in their 40s, when the propensity for violent behavior seems to decline. So we need a 'one strike and you're out' program.

Then we need to have a long look at ways of dealing with the 'causes of crime'. I believe growing up in the inner-city ghetto and going to a typical government school is a huge factor in 'causing' crime. It's an environment with a depraved culture.

We should consider ways to counter this. (For example, school choice. And what about state-run military academies, out in the countryside. Get those kids out of the horrible peer-pressure, where excelling academically is seen as 'acting white', and is punished.)

AND ... America needs a massive infra-structure program, centered on preparing for the coming big war.

We need to study how the Swiss, Chinese, and Israelis do their building codes, how they plan for evacuation of cities, how they make preparations for dealing with the aftermath of a big war and mass casualties, mass homelessness, etc. And then do likewise.

This would create a lot of jobs. Pay for it with higher taxes, not with more borrowing.

Close down a couple of hundred of our overseas military bases -- that would still leave us with hundreds -- and use the savings to help 'harden' America against the inevitable future wars we will see.

The purpose of a penal system is to:

• Separate the criminal from society so he can't commit crimes while in prison
• Rehabilitate the criminal so he can become a productive member of society
• Punish the criminal so when he is released he will not commit addition crimes
• Take revenge on criminals

Separating the criminal from society is the only thing we know for sure will work. As long as the criminal is incarcerated, he will not be committing crimes against society. Since the average prisoner, is released in 5 yrs, keeping all prisoners' till they are over 40 years old would mean a massive increase to a penal system that is already overcrowded and the largest in the world. The cost would be at least several hundred billion dollars. This plan would also run afoul of the 8th amendment of the US constitution.

Many studies have shown that rehabilitation programs are quite effective at reducing a prisoner's risk of future crime. To make them work we have get away from several long held beliefs. First being that the only purpose of prison is to punish the criminal. And secondly, we have to abandon the idea that the primary reason for work in prison is to reduce the cost of running the prison. That means we stop calling job training scrubbing floors, making license plates, and harvesting crops by hand that would normally be done by machines. Lastly, we would have to set up a real employment agency to help all released inmates find jobs. If done correctly it will work for all but the most harden criminals.

 

[rightwinger]

This graph is more up to date showing a steep decline in incarcerations which if continued would virtually empty the prisons in a few years.

View attachment 762174

1.2 million to go before it empties

 

[Doug1943]

Here's a good article from the excellent City Journal on the problem of incarceration:

Mass Incarceration Hysteria

Since President Donald Trump signed the First Step Act in December 2018 to relax federal prison and sentencing laws, the federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP) population has plummeted, reaching its lowest total since 2000. The federal government is not alone in trying to reduce confinement: several...

www.city-journal.org

One point needs to be made: often, when people say "non-violent" offenders should not be imprisoned, what they really mean are people whose "crimes" should not be counted as crimes at all.

This means drug dealers (and, sometimes, users).

It would be an experiment, but I think at this point it would be one worth trying: decriminalize all drug use (not just marijuana). Let the drug dealers out of prison.
Let our big corporations take over the manufacture and marketing of heroin, cocaine, etc.

But make it clear to the potential customers: get addicted, screw yourselves up, and you're on you're own. Commit a real crime, and you're going to prison. (Or, a better idea: let the Red States enact really harsh laws, long periods of incarceration with minimal comforts. But also let them offer the imprisoned criminals release -- if they will move permanently to a kinder, gentler Blue State.)

It would be important not to make the manufacture of drugs so entwined with rules and regulations that it remained profitable to supply it illegally. We want to undermine the cartels in Mexico, among other things, not keep them in business.

Unfortunately, legalization of marijuana has not done this. In liberal California, it's still profitable to grow and sell marijuana illegally, avoiding all the rules and regulations ... so the cartels are now taking over the marijuana trade in that state.

There's a good essay about this here:
[ Documentary Review: Cartelville USA ]

 

[Doug1943]

The purpose of a penal system is to:

• Separate the criminal from society so he can't commit crimes while in prison
• Rehabilitate the criminal so he can become a productive member of society
• Punish the criminal so when he is released he will not commit addition crimes
• Take revenge on criminals

Separating the criminal from society is the only thing we know for sure will work. As long as the criminal is incarcerated, he will not be committing crimes against society. Since the average prisoner, is released in 5 yrs, keeping all prisoners' till they are over 40 years old would mean a massive increase to a penal system that is already overcrowded and the largest in the world. The cost would be at least several hundred billion dollars. This plan would also run afoul of the 8th amendment of the US constitution.

Many studies have shown that rehabilitation programs are quite effective at reducing a prisoner's risk of future crime. To make them work we have get away from several long held beliefs. First being that the only purpose of prison is to punish the criminal. And secondly, we have to abandon the idea that the primary reason for work in prison is to reduce the cost of running the prison. That means we stop calling job training scrubbing floors, making license plates, and harvesting crops by hand that would normally be done by machines. Lastly, we would have to set up a real employment agency to help all released inmates find jobs. If done correctly it will work for all but the most harden criminals.

You say "

Many studies have shown that rehabilitation programs are quite effective at reducing a prisoner's risk of future crime.

Could you give us some links to some of these studies?

I have read the exact opposite. Are you familiar with the late James Q. Wilson? [James Q. Wilson]

 

[BS Filter]

Capital Punishment is Barbaric

Barbaric punishment for a barbaric crime. Seems fair to me.

 

[Woodznutz]

Here's a good article from the excellent City Journal on the problem of incarceration:

Mass Incarceration Hysteria

Since President Donald Trump signed the First Step Act in December 2018 to relax federal prison and sentencing laws, the federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP) population has plummeted, reaching its lowest total since 2000. The federal government is not alone in trying to reduce confinement: several...

www.city-journal.org

One point needs to be made: often, when people say "non-violent" offenders should not be imprisoned, what they really mean are people whose "crimes" should not be counted as crimes at all.

This means drug dealers (and, sometimes, users).

It would be an experiment, but I think at this point it would be one worth trying: decriminalize all drug use (not just marijuana). Let the drug dealers out of prison.
Let our big corporations take over the manufacture and marketing of heroin, cocaine, etc.

But make it clear to the potential customers: get addicted, screw yourselves up, and you're on you're own. Commit a real crime, and you're going to prison. (Or, a better idea: let the Red States enact really harsh laws, long periods of incarceration with minimal comforts. But also let them offer the imprisoned criminals release -- if they will move permanently to a kinder, gentler Blue State.)

It would be important not to make the manufacture of drugs so entwined with rules and regulations that it remained profitable to supply it illegally. We want to undermine the cartels in Mexico, among other things, not keep them in business.

Unfortunately, legalization of marijuana has not done this. In liberal California, it's still profitable to grow and sell marijuana illegally, avoiding all the rules and regulations ... so the cartels are now taking over the marijuana trade in that state.

There's a good essay about this here:
[ Documentary Review: Cartelville USA ]

Even legal 'pot shops' are buying and selling illegally produced pot out of the back door. They say they need to do it to stay in business. They are basically 'laundering' illegal pot for the cartels.

 

[Doug1943]

Even legal 'pot shops' are buying and selling illegally produced pot out of the back door. They say they need to do it to stay in business. They are basically 'laundering' illegal pot for the cartels.

The cartels are moving into America. If we thought the Black ghetto drug dealers were violent in quarrels over their turf ... wait until the cartels appear!

 

[Flopper]

This graph is more up to date showing a steep decline in incarcerations which if continued would virtually empty the prisons in a few years.

 

[Flopper]

This graph is more up to date showing a steep decline in incarcerations which if continued would virtually empty the prisons in a few years.

View attachment 762174

43% of inmates were in prison for drug charges, mostly possession.

 

[HeyNorm]

Capital Punishment is Barbaric

Abortion is even more barbaric, but you support it.

Strange world you live in.

 

[HeyNorm]

But necessary.

Interesting. That seems to be the lefts reasoning for their support of abortion.

 

[rightwinger]

Abortion is even more barbaric, but you support it.

Strange world you live in.

Abortion is legal

 

[HeyNorm]

Abortion is legal

Capital punishment is legal.

 

[Flopper]

If they 'do the crime' we need to provide the facilities for them to 'do the time'. What's the alternative?

Rehabilitation, shorter sentences for nonviolent criminals, and more mental hospitals. 20% of inmates have serious mental illness. As one warden said, "I have at least 200 inmates who don't know why they are here and they don't know where here is. Often criminals who arrive in a state penitentiary with mental issues become serious mentally ill once inside. The only reason they are here is there is no other place to put them. State mental hospitals have long waiting list and there are few beds available for those who are not criminally insane."

The United States has the most prisoners of any county, approximated 1.6 million about the same as China with a population of 4.5 times that of the US.

 

[Doug1943]

Anyone really interested in understanding this subject needs to read this article:
[ Mass Incarceration Hysteria | City Journal ]

Some of what's being said here about some prisoners needing to be in mental hospitals, not prisons is true. What happened to our mental hospitals? Read the article!

 

[Flopper]

What has contributed to a 500 percent increase in incarceration?
Crime is not up substantially but stricter sentences and mandatory prison are driving our numbers

Mandatory sentences don't make much sense. The people least qualified, the state legislation makes sentence determinations that should be made by a judge and jury as they are the ones most qualify to determine the degree guilt and proper punishment. When a guilty verdict by a jury means that punishment will be too serve considering the circumstances, the jury will most often vote not guilty.

I believe indeterminate sentences where the sentence is a range of years is good. That allows the prison officials or parole board to determine when an inmate is fit to rejoin society.

 

[rightwinger]

Mandatory sentences don't make much sense. The people least qualified, the state legislation makes sentence determinations that should be made by a judge and jury as they are the ones most qualify to determine the degree guilt and proper punishment. When a guilty verdict by a jury means that punishment will be too serve considering the circumstances, the jury will most often vote not guilty.

I believe indeterminate sentences where the sentence is a range of years is good. That allows the prison officials or parole board to determine when an inmate is fit to rejoin society.

Lets be honest with ourselves

State Legislators make strict mandatory sentences to brag to their constituents how tough they are on crime. All they do is fill our prisons and keep us from spending tax dollars on more worthy projects

 

[Flopper]

Here's a good article from the excellent City Journal on the problem of incarceration:

Mass Incarceration Hysteria

Since President Donald Trump signed the First Step Act in December 2018 to relax federal prison and sentencing laws, the federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP) population has plummeted, reaching its lowest total since 2000. The federal government is not alone in trying to reduce confinement: several...

www.city-journal.org

One point needs to be made: often, when people say "non-violent" offenders should not be imprisoned, what they really mean are people whose "crimes" should not be counted as crimes at all.

This means drug dealers (and, sometimes, users).

It would be an experiment, but I think at this point it would be one worth trying: decriminalize all drug use (not just marijuana). Let the drug dealers out of prison.
Let our big corporations take over the manufacture and marketing of heroin, cocaine, etc.

But make it clear to the potential customers: get addicted, screw yourselves up, and you're on you're own. Commit a real crime, and you're going to prison. (Or, a better idea: let the Red States enact really harsh laws, long periods of incarceration with minimal comforts. But also let them offer the imprisoned criminals release -- if they will move permanently to a kinder, gentler Blue State.)

It would be important not to make the manufacture of drugs so entwined with rules and regulations that it remained profitable to supply it illegally. We want to undermine the cartels in Mexico, among other things, not keep them in business.

Unfortunately, legalization of marijuana has not done this. In liberal California, it's still profitable to grow and sell marijuana illegally, avoiding all the rules and regulations ... so the cartels are now taking over the marijuana trade in that state.

There's a good essay about this here:
[ Documentary Review: Cartelville USA ]

Invariably when governments make drug sales legal, such as marijuana, they impost taxes and fees to be used for purposes such as schools, hospitals etc. Those fees can be quite high. California charges a retail excise tax of 15% in addition to sales. Washington state charges a retail excise tax of 37%. And it doesn't stop there. Legal growers pay many thousands of dollars in application fees and yearly licenses. These taxes, fees, and regulations create a market for illegal sales which is what legalization was suppose to eliminate.

 

[Flopper]

Anyone really interested in understanding this subject needs to read this article:
[ Mass Incarceration Hysteria | City Journal ]

Some of what's being said here about some prisoners needing to be in mental hospitals, not prisons is true. What happened to our mental hospitals? Read the article!

I'm not sure why we don't have enough mental hospitals today. I do know in the 1970's, there were a number of psychiatrics drugs being produced. The American Psychiatric Association began backing outpatient treatment in place of longer term psychiatric hospitals. As a result there were no new psychiatric hospitals and states were closing them putting money into community treatment centers. The plan was that patients seek help at small clinics and hospitals designed for short stays where patients could be evaluated put on a drug treatment plan and released to live happy productive lives. Of course that was pure nonsense that prevails to this day.

We have hundreds of thousands of people in this country who can not live alone and can not live with others due to their mental illness and there is just no place for them. After cycling through ERs, short term clinics, and groups homes for years, they end up on the streets and then jail or prison. In Washington State we have two adult mental hospitals providing long term mental health care as well as care for the criminally insane. One was built in 1871 and the newest one was built in the 1930s. The last I heard, there were over 900 qualified patients waiting for a bed. I have a granddaughter who has been on the waiting list for over 2 years. She is living in a group home, her 3rd in the last year.