Zone1 Capital Punishment is Wrong!

[Doug1943]

I believe this happened during the Reagan years.

Could be. There is probably an article documenting the reality of what happened somewhere.

One of the big weaknesses of the American Right is a lack of sophistication in its understanding of the proper uses of the state. People on the Right tend to adopt Libertarian, even Objectivist, ideology with respect to the government and its role, because having an ideology means you don't have to think very much.

Both conservatism and liberalism should be thought of as inclinations, not ideologies. (An ideology is an attempt to do for the reality of human society what physical scientists do for physical reality: come up with a simple set of statements that abstract away from non-essentials and succinctly describe how things work. But for understanding human society, this is not adequate. You can come up with the social equivalents of Newton's Laws or the Laws of Thermodynamics for human society, but they don't really tell you what to do next.)

In reality, Republican politicians -- until Trump came along -- were anything but libertarian, especially when feeding the military-industrial complex was involved -- although generally being in favor of lower taxes and few environmental regulations.

Without explicitly challenging this tacit consensus, except on the issue of Free Trade, Trump seemed to pose an alternative. (For one thing, in the money-in-politics game, he was a buyer, not a seller.) Thus the uncritical support he has among the Republican base.

Plus, he got certain things accomplished, which no previous Republican President had done. Here's a good explanation of why:

Why Trump Succeeded Where Others Failed

 

[Woodznutz]

Could be. There is probably an article documenting the reality of what happened somewhere.

One of the big weaknesses of the American Right is a lack of sophistication in its understanding of the proper uses of the state. People on the Right tend to adopt Libertarian, even Objectivist, ideology with respect to the government and its role, because having an ideology means you don't have to think very much.

Both conservatism and liberalism should be thought of as inclinations, not ideologies. (An ideology is an attempt to do for the reality of human society what physical scientists do for physical reality: come up with a simple set of statements that abstract away from non-essentials and succinctly describe how things work. But for understanding human society, this is not adequate. You can come up with the social equivalents of Newton's Laws or the Laws of Thermodynamics for human society, but they don't really tell you what to do next.)

In reality, Republican politicians -- until Trump came along -- were anything but libertarian, especially when feeding the military-industrial complex was involved -- although generally being in favor of lower taxes and few environmental regulations.

Without explicitly challenging this tacit consensus, except on the issue of Free Trade, Trump seemed to pose an alternative. (For one thing, in the money-in-politics game, he was a buyer, not a seller.) Thus the uncritical support he has among the Republican base.

Plus, he got certain things accomplished, which no previous Republican President had done. Here's a good explanation of why:

Why Trump Succeeded Where Others Failed

Politics aside, it's our failed nature that is the root of our problems. Religion alone attempts to deal with this. although ineffectively likely for the same reason that secular leadership fails. Neither wants to offend their membership.

 

[Donald H]

Politics aside, it's our failed nature that is the root of our problems. Religion alone attempts to deal with this. although ineffectively likely for the same reason that secular leadership fails. Neither wants to offend their membership.

The religion problem can be dealt with calmly and effectively, as you may notice if you're read the comments. They can be co-opted to move themselves over to the right side on account of them needing to at least feign human decency.

But they betray their true nature by resisting to begin with.

Meriweather wouldn't have fallen victim to the hypocrisy of the religious. She/he is the real thing, and so far the only real thing I've detected on this board.

 

[Woodznutz]

The religion problem can be dealt with calmly and effectively, as you may notice if you're read the comments. They can be co-opted to move themselves over to the right side on account of them needing to at least feign human decency.

But they betray their true nature by resisting to begin with.

Meriweather wouldn't have fallen victim to the hypocrisy of the religious. She/he is the real thing, and so far the only real thing I've detected on this board.

People are loathe to reveal much of their real selves here.

 

[easyt65]

That's one of the reason why I oppose capital punishment. Executing a person such as that is turning away from accepting social responsibility and that just creates more like him.

1. What social responsibility do I / you have to a man who slaughters his own wife and child, to someone who physically abuses, murders, and then engages in canibalism of his child victims?
- Such a man was convicted, sent to prison, and was killed by inmates in less than 24hrs because they will not tolerate anyone who hurts a child ... and THEY are suppsed to be the uncivilized / barbaric among us.)

Who in society do you want to blame for such sick, evil people? Do you really think such evil can be 'rehabilitated' and made to be a descent contributing member of society again after being released?


2. '...that just creates more like him.'

In countries like Saudi they cut a hand off of of thieves. They execute murderers.

How many thieves and murderers do you think this incentivizes / creates?



(What do you call a paraplegic in Saudi?
- A 'REPEAT OFFENDER' )


.

 

[Flopper]

Finally, a rational argument with some hard facts!
So ... now let's talk about 'the causes' and how we should 'address' them.

So ... what are the causes of crime?

Over to you.

The link between poverty and crime is obvious. Wealth reduces the benefit-to-cost ratio of committing crime. The high school dropout with a family consisting of a drug addicted mother, and 3 kids subsisting on welfare has little to loose.

 

[Donald H]

1. What social responsibility do I / you have to a man who slaughters his own wife and child, to someone who physically abuses, murders, and then engages in canibalism of his child victims?
- Such a man was convicted, sent to prison, and was killed by inmates in less than 24hrs because they will not tolerate anyone who hurts a child ... and THEY are suppsed to be the uncivilized / barbaric among us.)

Who in society do you want to blame for such sick, evil people? Do you really think such evil can be 'rehabilitated' and made to be a descent contributing member of society again after being released?


2. '...that just creates more like him.'

In countries like Saudi they cut a hand off of of thieves. They execute murderers.

How many thieves and murderers do you think this incentivizes / creates?

Your social responsibility lies in you not supporting a system that ensures more of the same behaviour.

(What do you call a paraplegic in Saudi?
- A 'REPEAT OFFENDER' )

I think that even you would be ashamed to say that you support the Saudi's justice against women in 'chop-chop' square.

But you haven't yet and so maybe not?
I'm trying to make the point that by introducing religion, it's possible to shame some people like you.

.

Your social responsibility lies in you not supporting a system that ensures more of the same behaviour.

 

[Donald H]

The link between poverty and crime is obvious. Wealth reduces the benefit-to-cost ratio of committing crime. The high school dropout with a family consisting of a drug addicted mother, and 3 kids subsisting on welfare has little to loose.

Thanks for choosing to take the high road on this one at least.

 

[easyt65]

Your social responsibility lies in you not supporting a system that ensures more of the same behaviour.

I don't. Failed liberal policies are not even addressing the massive violence and murder, which is on the rise. They have had years to come up with a plan to prevent what is happening, and all their policies are doing are:

- Making liberal cities unliveable due to out of control violence, crime, and murder - people are leaving

- Forcing big businesses to close stores and abandon communities, cities, and even states...surrendering to massive crime hy abandoning these places.

- Causing violent crime rates to sky-rocket while Biden / Democrats are aiding / abetting / importing more illegal sexual predators, thieves, rapists, pedophiles, murderers, violent gang members, and terrorists, making communities / cities / Anericans LESS safe.


I guess you are proud of the Liberal, George Soros-funded/supported system we have now that does not hold murderers but releases them to go out and commit more murders in lesds than 24 hours...the current Democrat 2-tiered Justic System that allows politicians to violate the very laws they impose on rhe rest of us?

 

[Flopper]

No, but someone who kills or rapes someone else SHOULD never get out of prison.

Ever.

There are too many extenuating circumstances to make such broad statements. People who are under the influence of drugs, alcohol, and mental illness can change as they grow older. Many criminals today take plea bargains of 2nd and 3rd degree murder because they don't believe they will get a fair trial with a public defender. Also our criminal justice system is far from perfect. Many studies have shown that 5% to 6% of inmates are innocent of the crimes they convicted.

 

[Donald H]

There are too many extenuating circumstances to make such broad statements. People who are under the influence of drugs, alcohol, and mental illness can change as they grow older. Many criminals today take plea bargains of 2nd and 3rd degree murder because they don't believe they will get a fair trial with a public defender. Also our criminal justice system is far from perfect. Many studies have shown that 5% to 6% of inmates are innocent of the crimes they convicted.

Well said! Most Americans don't want to be on the wrong side of this, but old outdated beliefs die hard.
And then there are those like 'easy' who will never change. Some wish they could change but to them it would be a betrayal of everything their parents and they have ever stood for.

 

[Doug1943]

Politics aside, it's our failed nature that is the root of our problems. Religion alone attempts to deal with this. although ineffectively likely for the same reason that secular leadership fails. Neither wants to offend their membership.

Yes, our nature 'fails' to match our ideals.
Our failing nature comes from the Darwinian imperative to survive and replicate our genes.
Those of our potential ancestors who didn't grab what they could for themselves, who didn't rape the captive women of a defeated tribe, didn't pass on as many of their genes as those who did these things.
It's me, me, me -- and my family next, then my clan, then my tribe ... the bearers of my genes.

BUT ... we are also a social animal. Tribes where everyone is completely selfish have a lower survival rate than those which have young men willing to rush into the enemy's shield wall, or hunters who share their catch with other tribe members who weren't successful in the hunt.

This impulse is, of course, initially just a replicate-my-genes thing ... even if they are in other physical bodies. It's not me-me-me, but my-genes-my-gene-my-genes.

But it can spread beyond 'altruistic' behavior just towards our relatives. The 'social altruism' impulse can embrace broader groups.

So we really have two 'natures': a selfish, biologically-driven one, and an 'altruistic' socially-driven one -- even though the latter's roots are the same as the selfish drive.

And there is a tension between them. We have evolved sets of moral rules to try to get beyond the me-me-me (or me-and-my-kinfolk) drives, rooting them in some sort of supernatural matrix, which promises rewards for being altruistic, and punishments for being totally selfish.

One of the ways conservatives differ from liberals is that we are more attentive to our 'darker' side. We're not so confident that laws and other social sanctions/rewards can overcome that strong me-me-me biological drive.

And we fear that well-meaning laws can be turned to the benefit of the me-me-me drive -- and laws, as opposed to customs and traditions, have the power of the state behind them.

One of the things that most modern conservatives have in common with genuine Marxists is that we believe that the growth of 'wealth', associated with capitalism, can meliorate the me-me-me drive. That drive is strongest when there is not enough to go around.

Where there is only enough to feed one person, three people will fight among themselves to get it. Where there is enough to feed all three, they won't.

Marxists called this advance towards general plenty, the movement from the kingdom of necessity to the kingdom of freedom.

They were a bit too optimistic about this movement in general, and completely wrong about how to get it in particular (state ownership of the productive forces), but they weren't wrong that it was a good thing.

 

[Doug1943]

I don't. Failed liberal policies are not even addressing the massive violence and murder, which is on the rise. They have had years to come up with a plan to prevent what is happening, and all their policies are doing are:

- Making liberal cities unliveable due to out of control violence, crime, and murder - people are leaving

- Forcing big businesses to close stores and abandon communities, cities, and even states...surrendering to massive crime hy abandoning these places.

- Causing violent crime rates to sky-rocket while Biden / Democrats are aiding / abetting / importing more illegal sexual predators, thieves, rapists, pedophiles, murderers, violent gang members, and terrorists, making communities / cities / Anericans LESS safe.


I guess you are proud of the Liberal, George Soros-funded/supported system we have now that does not hold murderers but releases them to go out and commit more murders in lesds than 24 hours...the current Democrat 2-tiered Justic System that allows politicians to violate the very laws they impose on rhe rest of us?

These Leftist policies, along with the sexualization of children, race-based preferences in college admissions, and the attempt to make white children ashamed of being white, and all children ashamed of being Americans, are unpopular with the majority of Americans.

This means patriots need to make these issues front-and-center of our popular campaigns over the next year and a half.

We need to either make Democratic politicians endorse the Leftist view on these issues, satisfying their activist base but alienating a lot of voters ... or repudiating them, opening up splits within the Left.

Lori Lightfoot has just lost -- spectacularly -- the open primary for mayor of Chicago. She got 16% of the vote -- a guy who ran decisively to her Right on the issue of crime got 35%. There will be a runoff between him and a leftist teachers-union guy who got more than Lightfoot did. What did her in was the crime issue.

More here:[ Lori Lightfoot fails to advance to runoff vote for second term as Chicago’s mayor ]
(Note that the leftwing Guardian newspaper blames the spectacular rise in crime in Chicago on Covid!!!)

If we act intelligently, making crime, the perversion of children, and merit-based admissions the central issues, we have a good chance to win in 2024. Of course, there is a fellow who could snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

 

[Flopper]

1. What social responsibility do I / you have to a man who slaughters his own wife and child, to someone who physically abuses, murders, and then engages in canibalism of his child victims?
- Such a man was convicted, sent to prison, and was killed by inmates in less than 24hrs because they will not tolerate anyone who hurts a child ... and THEY are suppsed to be the uncivilized / barbaric among us.)

Who in society do you want to blame for such sick, evil people? Do you really think such evil can be 'rehabilitated' and made to be a descent contributing member of society again after being released?


2. '...that just creates more like him.'

In countries like Saudi they cut a hand off of of thieves. They execute murderers.

How many thieves and murderers do you think this incentivizes / creates?



(What do you call a paraplegic in Saudi?
- A 'REPEAT OFFENDER' )


.

Most of these people feel no guilt or remorse for their victims. They are typically intelligent but may have little formal education. They are not concerned about the penalty for their crimes because they are confident that they will not be caught. Motivations are usually a mystery to the police. They may torture children because they were tortured as children or they may do so simply because the screams of a child excite them. They may devour their victims because they believe it gives them strength or because they believe human flesh is tasty. In one case, the killer said he ate his victims to avoid buying meat at the grocery. In times past we called these people devils, demons, and witches. Today we call them sociopaths.

Although most the horrible pointless killings are done by sociopaths, most sociopaths are not killers. Most commonly they are thieves, swindlers, or conmen who believe they are belong the touch of the law.

 

[alang1216]

It's expensive because we turn executions into dog and pony shows with drugs and gas chambers that don't work. It is not meant to be a deterrent, it is removing a dangerous tumor from the body of society.

In theory it is fine, in practice it is not. How many convictions have been overturned in the past due to prosecutorial misconduct, new DNA evidence, or witness recantations? Plenty.

 

[badbob85037]

Recidivism rates decline with longer sentences. Longer sentences with better treatment is the answer. What is less appreciated is that criminals often commit many crimes before they are caught, not just one.

What happens to all these crazies committing these mass shootings of children and innocent humans. I haven't heard of any on death row. In LA there is a woman who has murdered 2 people and she hasn't been charged and it looks like some in LA with life time get out of jail free cards. A lot more people are killing as many as they can because they can get away with a slap on the wrist I bet China don't have mass shootings because China knows what works to prevent these killings. They don't killing them in 25 years after the fact. After trial they take them out and put a bullet in their head and they never kill again. And not just murders. You kill child molesters, looters, rioters beating the elderly with 2 x 4's and clubs. You could stop illegal immigration tomorrow if one day a week you set up a few Browning .50's along the border. We have more crime every day and these bleeding heart goodie two shoes are making it worse trying to cure them when the only thing that works is putting them down. That's why God said an eye for an eye. Maybe the next mass shooter you should take in and give him a bed and a room. I'm sure that crazy will repay you with his dying love.

 

[Woodznutz]

What happens to all these crazies committing these mass shootings of children and innocent humans. I haven't heard of any on death row. In LA there is a woman who has murdered 2 people and she hasn't been charged and it looks like some in LA with life time get out of jail free cards. A lot more people are killing as many as they can because they can get away with a slap on the wrist I bet China don't have mass shootings because China knows what works to prevent these killings. They don't killing them in 25 years after the fact. After trial they take them out and put a bullet in their head and they never kill again. And not just murders. You kill child molesters, looters, rioters beating the elderly with 2 x 4's and clubs. You could stop illegal immigration tomorrow if one day a week you set up a few Browning .50's along the border. We have more crime every day and these bleeding heart goodie two shoes are making it worse trying to cure them when the only thing that works is putting them down. That's why God said an eye for an eye. Maybe the next mass shooter you should take in and give him a bed and a room. I'm sure that crazy will repay you with his dying love.

Such harsh methods aren't going to happen. The best we can hope for is for lawmakers to begin to take crime more seriously.

 

[Flopper]

What happens to all these crazies committing these mass shootings of children and innocent humans. I haven't heard of any on death row. In LA there is a woman who has murdered 2 people and she hasn't been charged and it looks like some in LA with life time get out of jail free cards. A lot more people are killing as many as they can because they can get away with a slap on the wrist I bet China don't have mass shootings because China knows what works to prevent these killings. They don't killing them in 25 years after the fact. After trial they take them out and put a bullet in their head and they never kill again. And not just murders. You kill child molesters, looters, rioters beating the elderly with 2 x 4's and clubs. You could stop illegal immigration tomorrow if one day a week you set up a few Browning .50's along the border. We have more crime every day and these bleeding heart goodie two shoes are making it worse trying to cure them when the only thing that works is putting them down. That's why God said an eye for an eye. Maybe the next mass shooter you should take in and give him a bed and a room. I'm sure that crazy will repay you with his dying love.

An eye for eye only makes the world blind. It does not a deterrent because most killers don't believe they will be caught. We should rehabilitate those can be rehabilitated and kept the rest in prison until they are too old to be a problem for society.

 

[Hector12]

Western Europe, State Formation, and Genetic Pacification​

by Peter Frost and Henry C. Harpending

Through its monopoly on violence, the State tends to pacify social relations. Such pacification proceeded slowly in Western Europe between the 5th and 11th centuries, being hindered by the rudimentary nature of law enforcement, the belief in a man's right to settle personal disputes as he saw fit, and the Church's opposition to the death penalty. These hindrances began to dissolve in the 11th century with a consensus by Church and State that the wicked should be punished so that the good may live in peace. Courts imposed the death penalty more and more often and, by the late Middle Ages, were condemning to death between 0.5 and 1.0% of all men of each generation, with perhaps just as many offenders dying at the scene of the crime or in prison while awaiting trial. Meanwhile, the homicide rate plummeted from the 14th century to the 20th. The pool of violent men dried up until most murders occurred under conditions of jealousy, intoxication, or extreme stress. The decline in personal violence is usually attributed to harsher punishment and the longer-term effects of cultural conditioning. It may also be, however, that this new cultural environment selected genetically against propensities for violence.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/147470491501300114

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Civilization civilizes, but the process is evolutionary and requires centuries. This essay can explain why East Asians and whites of European descent have lower crime rates than human populations that more recently have emerged from tribal environments.

In a tribal environment men are expected to avenge wrongs done to them, their relatives, and their friends. We can expect that women rarely become involved with men who fail to do this.

While tribal environments select in favor of physical aggressiveness, civilization selects against it.

 

[easyt65]

In 'recent' news liberal DAs have released murderers back into the community only for them to murder ithers within 72 hours and be arrested again .

In cases like this the victims' families should be allowed to sue the DAs and city. (Aiding, Abetting, Wreckless Endangerment, etc...)

Refusing to put proven psychopaths to death is ine thing, but at least JAIL thse guys.