Zone1 Capital Punishment is Wrong!

[Doug1943]

Similar to the British deportation to Australia? It worked pretty well for Britain for a while because Australia was not considered to be of any value and it was surrounded by ocean. However, most of the Midwest has value and it would require significant amount of security to keep people in. Also there is the problem of protecting those who can not protect themselves. Eventually the strongest would organize and breakout.

Yes, plenty of practical problems with this idea. But I still think it's the direction in which we should be thinking: not 'punishment' but 'separation'.

 

[Meister]

Trump executed 13 in six months

I didn't know it was a fed thing, I thought it was a state thing.
Live and learn I guess.

 

[Flopper]

Yes, plenty of practical problems with this idea. But I still think it's the direction in which we should be thinking: not 'punishment' but 'separation'.

We have an obligation by law to protect prisoners, most of whom are serving time for non-violent offenses. We also have to provide healthcare, shelter and food. When we do all of these things the means of separation will become a prison similar to what we have now.

 

[Doug1943]

We have an obligation by law to protect prisoners, most of whom are serving time for non-violent offenses. We also have to provide healthcare, shelter and food. When we do all of these things the means of separation will become a prison similar to what we have now.

Yes, it's the violent ones that concern people on this thread, I think. And if our current laws require us to spend a lot of money on them, maybe our laws need to be changed. Rob a liquor store, shoot someone ... and get free healthcare, shelter and food, paid for by those who did not do these things? Hmmm...

 

[Flopper]

Yes, it's the violent ones that concern people on this thread, I think. And if our current laws require us to spend a lot of money on them, maybe our laws need to be changed. Rob a liquor store, shoot someone ... and get free healthcare, shelter and food, paid for by those who did not do these things? Hmmm...

It is more than just our laws. The 8th amendment to constitution protects prisoners' against cruel and usually treatment. In todays world, the failure to provide food, shelter, reasonable protection of of the lives of prisoners would certainly qualify as cruel and unusually treatment. One thing to keep in mind is half of those in prison today will be out in 5 years and I doubt we really want to turn them into blood thirsty beast.

 

[Doug1943]

It is more than just our laws. The 8th amendment to constitution protects prisoners' against cruel and usually treatment. In todays world, the failure to provide food, shelter, reasonable protection of of the lives of prisoners would certainly qualify as cruel and unusually treatment. One thing to keep in mind is half of those in prison today will be out in 5 years and I doubt we really want to turn them into blood thirsty beast.

We need to take a fresh look at our criminal justice system. Both Leftists and Rightists can find a lot wrong with it. (Leftists don't like the plea bargaining system, which sees people pleading guilty because of the promise of a shorter sentence. Rightists don't like the shorer sentences.)

What we have to first establish is that the criminal justice system should protect, first of all, law-abiding people. It doesn't do this very well now.

One thing we need to establish is whether any program of 'rehabilitation' works. I assert that, for most criminals, for most situations, it doesn't.

What 'works' is keeping criminals locked up for a very long time -- at a minimum, until they're in their 40s, when the propensity for violent behavior seems to decline. So we need a 'one strike and you're out' program.

Then we need to have a long look at ways of dealing with the 'causes of crime'. I believe growing up in the inner-city ghetto and going to a typical government school is a huge factor in 'causing' crime. It's an environment with a depraved culture.

We should consider ways to counter this. (For example, school choice. And what about state-run military academies, out in the countryside. Get those kids out of the horrible peer-pressure, where excelling academically is seen as 'acting white', and is punished.)

AND ... America needs a massive infra-structure program, centered on preparing for the coming big war.

We need to study how the Swiss, Chinese, and Israelis do their building codes, how they plan for evacuation of cities, how they make preparations for dealing with the aftermath of a big war and mass casualties, mass homelessness, etc. And then do likewise.

This would create a lot of jobs. Pay for it with higher taxes, not with more borrowing.

Close down a couple of hundred of our overseas military bases -- that would still leave us with hundreds -- and use the savings to help 'harden' America against the inevitable future wars we will see.

 

[rightwinger]

What 'works' is keeping criminals locked up for a very long time -- at a minimum, until they're in their 40s, when the propensity for violent behavior seems to decline. So we need a 'one strike and you're out' program.

It doesn’t work
All mandatory sentences do is fill our prisons
The US has 2.5 million prisoners and the highest incarceration rate in the world

Whatever we are doing, it doesn’t work

Reserve lengthy incarceration for non violent prisoners
End mandatory prison for War on Drugs offenders

 

[Woodznutz]

I think you're on to something. In Czarist Russia, 'political criminals' could be sent into exile. In those days it meant being sent to a remote village in Siberia.

So what about this idea: a very large area somewhere in the Midwest, surrounded by a high electrified fence, with apartment buildings, allotments to grow food. Put criminals there. Not a prison, exactly, but a way to separate them from society.

Or an island somewhere.

 

[Woodznutz]

It doesn’t work
All mandatory sentences do is fill our prisons
The US has 2.5 million prisoners and the highest incarceration rate in the world

Whatever we are doing, it doesn’t work

Reserve lengthy incarceration for non violent prisoners
End mandatory prison for War on Drugs offenders

View attachment 762091

If prisons are overcrowded, we need to build more prisons.

 

[rightwinger]

If prisons are overcrowded, we need to build more prisons.

Yea, because that is working out so well for us

 

[Woodznutz]

Yea, because that is working out so well for us

If they 'do the crime' we need to provide the facilities for them to 'do the time'. What's the alternative?

 

[rightwinger]

If they 'do the crime' we need to provide the facilities for them to 'do the time'. What's the alternative?

The alternative is the same as most countries use
Don’t fill your prisons with nonviolent and drug offenders

 

[rightwinger]

There are 2 million people in the nation’s prisons and jails—a 500% increase over the last 40 years. Changes in sentencing law and policy, not changes in crime rates, explain most of this increase.

Research - Get the Facts - The Sentencing Project

The United States is the world's leader in incarceration. Get the facts and statistics on trends in U.S. incarceration.

www.sentencingproject.org

 

[Resnic]

I'm of the mind if you knowingly, willingly and intentionally kill someone you should be put to death.

No appeals, no death row, no nuthouse, just straight to death. I'll be generous and say they can have 2 weeks in jail to put affairs in order or say goodbye to someone.

If a young guy walks up and punched an old man he dies, if you do a drive by, if you kill someone while stealing or anything you can't be a part of a society.

Even if you put someone in jail for life you're just killing them with jail. Putting someone in jail for life is inhumane, it wastes time, energy, money and resources. Just put them to death and be done with it.

 

[Woodznutz]

The alternative is the same as most countries use
Don’t fill your prisons with nonviolent and drug offenders

As most crimes are "nonviolent" how do you keep them from reoffending if they aren't incarcerated?
I lost my driver's license once, but that didn't stop me from driving. They should have booted or impounded my car.

 

[Woodznutz]

There are 2 million people in the nation’s prisons and jails—a 500% increase over the last 40 years. Changes in sentencing law and policy, not changes in crime rates, explain most of this increase.

Research - Get the Facts - The Sentencing Project

The United States is the world's leader in incarceration. Get the facts and statistics on trends in U.S. incarceration.

www.sentencingproject.org

The graph shows a steep decline in incarceration beginning in 2010. Also the graph should include other contributing factors.

 

[Doug1943]

How is "non violent" crime defined?

1. Is a mob going into a shop and stealing from it "non-violent"?

2. Is someone who is caught building a powerful anti-personnel bomb, commiting a "non-violent" offense?

I agree re. the legalization of drugs, especially hard drugs.

In fact, I would favor the government subsidizing heroin, so the addicts don't have to rob liquor stores to feed their habit. Every school should introduce kids to heroin at about the age of 14, ie tell them about it, how nice it makes you feel, where to get it -- at a subsidized price -- and then tell them what it does to you in the long run. So they can choose.

Darwinian selection.

 

[Woodznutz]

How is "non violent" crime defined?

1. Is a mob going into a shop and stealing from it "non-violent"?

2. Is someone who is caught building a powerful anti-personnel bomb, commiting a "non-violent" offense?

I agree re. the legalization of drugs, especially hard drugs.

In fact, I would favor the government subsidizing heroin, so the addicts don't have to rob liquor stores to feed their habit. Every school should introduce kids to heroin at about the age of 14, ie tell them about it, how nice it makes you feel, where to get it -- at a subsidized price -- and then tell them what it does to you in the long run. So they can choose.

Darwinian selection.

Won't work, as they won't believe it will happen to them.

I do believe that kids should be shown the consequences of bad and criminal behavior. It might save some.

 

[rightwinger]

The graph shows a steep decline in incarceration beginning in 2010. Also the graph should include other contributing factors.

What has contributed to a 500 percent increase in incarceration?
Crime is not up substantially but stricter sentences and mandatory prison are driving our numbers

 

[Woodznutz]

What has contributed to a 500 percent increase in incarceration?
Crime is not up substantially but stricter sentences and mandatory prison are driving our numbers

This graph is more up to date showing a steep decline in incarcerations which if continued would virtually empty the prisons in a few years.